New York Times bestselling author Nicholas Sparks joins Zibby to discuss his uplifting, heart-tugging new book, COUNTING MIRACLES. Set in North Carolina, the story follows military man Tanner, who embarks on a healing journey and crosses paths with a single mom and an older man—both of whom will change his life. Nicholas shares how he blends multiple genres—romance, mystery, and elements of the supernatural—while exploring deeper themes of love, grief, and redemption. He also talks about the challenges of balancing dark subject matter with hope, his love of including dogs in his stories, and several upcoming projects in various stages of film development!

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Nicholas. Thank you so much for coming back on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Counting Miracles.

Thank you. 

Nicholas: I'm thrilled to be here. Good to see you again. 

Zibby: Good to see you. So I know from our last couple of podcasts, every time you always say, okay, so did you read this book? And, which is good. I try to read every book, but yes, I want you to know from the outset, I read this book cover to cover and it was so powerful and upsetting at times.

And wow, I, I, it was like a hold your heart type of, finish to the book and all of that. So yes, thank you so much for the experience. 

Nicholas: Well, you are welcome. And I appreciate the, I appreciate the reading, appreciate the interview. 

Zibby: Why don't you tell listeners what this book is about? 

Nicholas: Oh, it's a typical.

Nicholas Sparks, right? There's some romantic elements in there's a little bit of mystery, a little bit of life, some major themes of love and loss. But essentially it's about, uh, it's at North Carolina. That's another thing essentially about a guy named Tanner. He's former military. He's been working overseas for USAID previous to his, uh, appearance in the novel.

And he was, he do, you know, He kind of goes on a journey of healing. A lot of his friends that he knew in the military committed suicide. Not really, he's very unsettled in life, doesn't know where he belongs. His mom says, Hey, you know, there's something you've always wanted to know. And I think you, uh, might find the answer in Asheboro.

So he goes to Asheboro, meets a She's a divorced mother raising a couple of great kids and of course, it's one of my books. So we can kind of guess what happens or might or might not happen from there. And you've got a third character. And, uh, He plays into the story as well. He's an older guy lives near the doctor, uh, walking distance.

He's helping the doctor's young son learn how to whittle. He discovers there's a white deer in the woods nearby and that there might be poachers after this white deer. And he thinks it's, it's his duty to save this white deer. And of course, these stories eventually collide into an ending that I, I hope people don't see coming.

Zibby: I did not see it coming. And actually, at some point, I was like, Why are these storylines not making sense together yet? Like, how are these going to overlap? I don't get it. So, you know. 

Nicholas: That's what you're supposed to do. 

Zibby: That's what I'm supposed to do. Yes. I'm the most gullible. 

Nicholas: You're turning the pages, right?

And, and of course, another element of doing that is you have to make both stories relatively interesting and page turning in and of themselves until the A story, Tanner and Caitlin, combines with the B story. Jasper. 

Zibby: So when you talk about, okay, this is one of my books, and so you know you're gonna get this, you know you're gonna get that, do you ever feel like, I just don't want to do these types of books anymore.

Like, do you ever feel like, do I have to, you know, do you feel reluctant at all, or are you just joyful? 

Nicholas: No, well, I'm not joyful. Writing, writing is easy. Writing well is hard. And writing what I write is even harder than that. You know, it takes a lot of effort, a lot of missteps, a lot of editing to before you finally get to the novel that's in your hands.

So it can be frustrating at times. But the nice thing about working in the genre in which I work is you're allowed to explore and utilize elements of other genres, whether it's historic fiction or the or or the supernatural or thrillers or danger or adventure or mystery, and you can pull those best elements from other genres and incorporate them into, I guess, the oomph in which I work, and that's what I've done here, right?

There's a few major themes in this novel. I don't know which one is, uh, Which one is primary? It's a study of, of grief. It's the study of finding a way forward moving on. It's, of course, it's a story of love. And then you've got some, it was inspired in part by the book of Job from the Bible as well. So you got a lot of big things going on in addition to the romantic element.

And that's why. The types of novels that I write remain a challenge because every time I'm sitting down to write a new novel, it feels like I'm reinventing the wheel because I have to learn how to do all of these other elements in the best way possible if I intend to incorporate them into my novel.

The benefit for the reader is they get a different story every time, even though they think they might know what's coming and certainly you can predict, Hey, North Carolina, you can predict there's a romantic element, but in no way, shape or form is, let's say, counting miracles similar to a walk to remember or safe haven or message in a bottle or even the notebook.

Zibby: It's true. I feel like in this book in particular, there was so much about the Bible and Jasper really relies on that. And even from his backstory where.. 

Nicholas: He did rely on it, you know, he's a man who's lost his faith as the story opens, right? 

Zibby: Right. Well, all of the different excerpts from the Bible, turning the other cheek, literally at one point in his life and showing the power of really internalizing that message and just how many.

And, and, and how it deepened his relationship with his own father at times when his dad would really rely on those messages as well. 

Nicholas: Yeah, you know, it's interesting. Uh, you know, some people I've been asked, you know, in interviews, is this a Christian book? And I say, no, I say, however, one of the characters in the novel is Christian.

And he was a man of faith who's lost his faith. And we see where, you know, And we understand why once we know his full story, and we see where he is and to me, you know, adding those elements, of course, really just helped to describe who Jasper was, but in no way would I say, Hey, this is a Christian book, you know, I mean, you know, as I just said, it was inspired by the Book of Job, which, by the way, is also in the Torah, so I don't, you know, it's just, it's just a story from the Bible, like Noah's Ark or Adam and Eve and it was intrinsic to Jasper's character, I thought. 

Zibby: Yeah. I didn't mean to suggest it was a Christian book. What does that even mean, really? Like, is it a this or a that? You know, it's a great book. It's a book where you're immersed in the characters, and this is one person's backstory. So, I don't know. 

Nicholas: It wasn't you.

It was more, you didn't. I've just been asked that. You know, I've been gearing up for the old so I have, I've answered a few questions about the novel to this point. 

Zibby: Got it. Okay. All right. Gotcha. There were a lot of things with Jasper also, with his health and psoriasis. And I don't know how much to say even about Jasper.

What is it plaguing him, but there was a lot of medical stuff and of course Caitlin is a doctor and Jasper is the consummate patient, you know throughout tell me a little bit more about that element and The caretaking and how much of a deep dive you had to do in various areas. 

Nicholas: Oh, sure. Well, certainly, I add elements of medical infirmity at times to my novels because I think it's something that many readers will relate to, if not the vast majority.

I mean, I think if you've gone through life and you've never known someone who's sick or, you know, had anything go wrong with them, you're a pretty rare individual. I have yet to meet one in my own life. 

Zibby: We are humans. Human. 

Nicholas: We are humans, right? Life is hard, right? And so, um, I think it adds an element of realism to the novel and how one copes with those things.

But, you know, Jasper's had a rough go of things. Uh, there, there's no question about it. And, you know, he's, he's, you know, he had an injury and you learn it fairly early on, but he was in a fire. So his skin is burned. And then the parts that won't burn weren't burned. He's got psoriasis and I've met people with psoriasis, really bad cases that just can't be controlled.

And, uh, you know, it's gotta be, gotta be very challenging to go through a world that, in which. Appearance, you know, is many people's very first impression of you and, you know, Jasper knows this and he's old and he's half burned and half covered and psoriasis, you know, he, as I put it in the novel, he kind of misses the covid days when everyone was wearing a mask.

Right. But even now he knows he wears his, uh, his bandana because as he phrases it, you know, you could scare kids on Halloween even without, you know, yeah. a disguise or a costume. And you learn that fairly early on. What we don't know is why, nor do we know how it affects him, who he is at present because of this.

For him, you get the sense he knows it, but he doesn't really think about it that much, unless he's in the presence of someone else. 

Zibby: So the overall message, I think, is quite hopeful, right? We can get through anything. We can reinvent ourselves. We can open ourselves up to emotions that we thought were totally closed off to us.

But there is definitely a darkness to the book, right? There is darkness. And it, part of it is overcoming that darkness, but to overcome it, you sort of have to read your way through it and experience it along with them. Was that hard to write for you and tell it, tell me more about that. I mean, you, you could have tempered it a little bit, but it was like, you know, a lot.

Nicholas: There's an old saying, right? The only way out is through. And that's really an exploration of all three characters. They all are, they all have their wounds from their past, so to speak. And, you know, you either work through it, you work through it and make the best of things you can work through it or not.

The world can be a gloomy place or, you know, you can try to find a way to end your own life. I suppose. These are kind of your, your, your, your three options in the end, either accepted or you're bitter about it. And these, these are characters who are struggling with that very universal dilemma of what do I do when things are really, really hard, you know, Tanner, so many of his friends that he knew suicide.

So he wonders. Was there anything I could have done to save them? Should I have been more available? Right? You get a sense of this, but he was off, you know, he's, he's an unsettled man. He's, he's never around. He was overseas. He was working for USAID, you know, helping vaccinate, you know, guarding people who vaccinated the kids, things like that.

He, yeah. So, so he's got that. You have Caitlin who comes off a divorce, nothing that she expected in her life. She's very clear. It's a line in the novel. Hey, I had this plan for my life. And guess what, right? Plans don't always work out. And so she struggles with that. And where is she? What does, I'm here now.

I'm okay. I think I could be a little happier, but what does that mean? That to me strikes me as a very universal feeling. And then of course you have Jasper and he's more closer to the end of his life. So he spends a little bit more time, uh, Living in the short term, Hey, I've got something to do this week.

There's a deer in the forest and a white deer, and I don't want the poachers to get it, but a lot of his time is spent looking back on the nature of his life and the things that have happened to him. And again, that, that strikes me as a fairly universal experience. 

Zibby: I feel like there's also with the deer and the forest, the woods and nature.

I feel like it's also in part an allegory, right? It's about like, especially the younger generation and how there is this group of teenagers who want to do evil and the older guard who try, who are trying to protect our world. And how do we reconcile these two groups and what do we do with that information?

Nicholas: Sure. It's, it's, it's tough. You know, he's, he's, he's a little old man. You know, I, As a general rule, you get the sense that Tanner's pretty handy and he could probably handle himself in a bad situation, but you don't get that. You don't get that impression of of Jasper, who probably gets in a little bit over his head and.

You know, you look back on his plans to, to, to save the deer. They're pretty well thought out, but it's a lot of work for an old person, right? Forest is a big place. Deer can go a lot of places and, and, and yet he wants to, to save that white deer. It's a memory from his father, but also he thinks it's a message of some sort, right?

Because white deer. You know, in various mythologies, they're, they're messages from the other side. They're messages from those we've lost. It depends on which particular mythology we're, we're talking about. And of course, some of those are laid out in the novel in a very efficient way. Don't worry. I'm not, I'm not, you know, I, I try to do things, uh, efficiently.

Zibby: And you also got in the dog to owner relationship and dog is advocate. And I just saw something on. Tick tock or something about a dog who chased this ambulance for like 40 miles. Of course, I was telling the story of my husband's like, the dog ran 40 miles and I was like, okay, maybe it wasn't 40 miles, but really far chasing the ambulance when his owner was inside and the lengths that dogs will go to protect those that they love.

Nicholas: Sure. You know, I, I have dogs. I've had dogs most of my life. I have a dog in the office right now, laying right over there and yeah. And so, yeah. And then Arlo, he was. He was kind of modeled after my son's dog who spends a lot of time at the house here and just really kind of likes to lay a lot, likes his treats, and don't bother teaching me any new tricks.

And yet, you know, there is a real bond between Jasper and Arlo because they're really all each other have and that's all they've been the companion to each other pretty much the sole command companion to each other for over a decade and so Arlo Arlo comes through in the end let's just let's just say 

Zibby: I was watching my kids at like an assembly and they gave the parents the live stream and it turns out the principal of their whole school, which isn't, she's a new principal this year.

That's the name of her dog too. And I was like, Oh my gosh, this is the dog in my book. Crazy. Anyway. 

Nicholas: You know,

I like putting dogs in books and I've done that before, whether it's the guardian or the lucky one. Um, you know, I, I get told I need to put a cat in one of my books and I will, I'll put a, a really personable cat, you know, to be frank, I'm allergic to cats. So I have less experience with, with cats. I mean, uh, the challenge with doing a cat is to, or any, any relationship like that is to make it feel very, Honest and real for the reader.

And I think that the, uh, relationship between Arlo and Jasper strikes people is real. 

Zibby: Definitely. So I have to ask, did you invest in Apple at the very beginning? ? 

Nicholas: Yeah, I did. . 

Zibby: Oh my gosh, that's amazing. I'm like, this is too specific an anecdote. This must be real. 

Nicholas: Yeah. Yeah. It's done well for me. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh.

That is so awesome. 

Nicholas: Yeah. I got lucky. Then I got lazy. Then I got lucky again. Woohoo. Can you believe it? That was the, that's, you want to know how to invest? That was it right there. That's all. You can go to all the bookstores that you want. That's the whole secret right there. 

Zibby: Yeah, forget the books. Forget the whole empire here.

Oh my gosh, that's awesome. I love that. And what is going on? How excited are you for The Notebook and the musical? And you have all these balls in the air. How is that going? 

Nicholas: Oh, it's a lot. You know, some of my other projects are in various stages of film development, either looking for a director, can't really talk about them, looking for a director on one, uh, looking to rewrite the script on another.

Getting close to announcing one, working on another one secretly that nobody knows about. Well, you do now, but, and I can't really say much about that one. So it's a busy life, right? You know, you tour and you write and you do these other projects and it's, um, I've been very blessed and I'm. You know, in the end, I just I'm always thrilled for that.

I that I have a new story and that another idea has come to me. You know, there's writers who read about them and they say, I've got notebooks of ideas or I keep a notebook by the side of the bed in case something, you know, some idea comes to me in the middle of the night and wakes me up. And I'm like, neither of these things have ever happened to me ever, ever.

I'm waiting for that moment, you know, where something just comes to me like that. It doesn't work like that for me. So whenever I finish a novel, I pretty much close and I say, well, that's it. I've done every good idea out there. There's going to be nothing else. I said that after the notebook, by the way, and I said, that's it.

I mean, how on earth can I come up with another story? And. You know, somehow little by little, another idea comes. So yeah, it's, it's fun to have a lot of balls in the air, but I, but because it always feels pretty rare and special to me, as I just said, you know, it's a lot of fun to, uh, to take a moment every now and then and really just, uh, uh, Be thankful for what's going on.

Zibby: How do you feel about book marketing? Because I think a lot of new authors or people who are out there sort of hustling and just trying to make a name for themselves feel like, well, if only I were like Nicholas Sparks or somebody who could sort of rest on his laurels and not have to do that. But that is not what I have found with people like you and other, like, I feel like everybody is still out there touring and doing podcasts and the whole thing like does it ever end and do you enjoy it?

Nicholas: Well, I enjoy um, I I don't mind going out on tour. I find going out on tour easier than writing. So we'll say that um yeah, writing writing is tough and it's really nice for me to get a chance to meet the readers and I learn from them What books they liked in the past which ones are their favorite? Uh, what themes they liked and because you only have a very short period of time when I'm signing a book or, or taking a photo with someone, but you know, I come out of there and say, you know, they were right.

It's been a long time since I've had a book with a teenage girl, or, you know what, I really should do something that's reminiscent of a mystery. Like I had in a bend in the road. So, you know, I, I garner information and it goes somewhere into the wheelhouse. And then. I'm sure it eventually comes out, right?

And, uh, or it comes out in little parts, maybe not entire books or themes, but certainly in various elements. So meeting people, going out on tour, it's a great way to, to find out what's working, what isn't working, what people might want, you know, for instance, what, what could be, should I put more social media into my novels?

Or not, right. That's a question. A lot of, a lot of people do, you know, the problem with that is that something sometimes. Things. It can date a book very quickly. Like, for instance, if you read a book that talks about my space, right? They're like, Oh, my gosh, remember that? You know, it date and it puts that into a specific year.

And I tried to write stories that feel as if they could be happening anytime. So, you know, when it comes to, you know, This is off the question, but technology, 

I try to say, well, I do think people will have cell phones for a while. So we'll do that. They'll probably keep having email. I think texting is here to stay as for specifics and social media, not so much.

But these are the kinds of things you learn from you go out on tour and you talk to people because for instance, a lot of people these days meet via social media, whether it's dating apps or this app or this and that. Should I perhaps do something with that or not, but it gives me, uh, something to think about.

Zibby: Well, at least I think GPS is here to stay. And that is one thing that you did put in this book. And if that goes away, I am just like, you know, I'm not, I'm not going to move it ever again. I'm not going to leave my house. 

Nicholas: But it's funny, right? Jasper goes in, we don't sell maps here. 

Zibby: Yeah, I know. He went to like five, you know, gas stations or something.

Nicholas: Most people just use their phones. 

And of course, he goes to school. They won't let him in. He's like, the world has changed, right? From what he, what it was, uh, what it used to be. And of course. That's inevitable. 

Zibby: I try to tell my kids and they don't really care when we're driving sometimes. I'm like, you guys, you know, I used to have this like book of maps called the Thomas Guide in LA and I had to like pull over and like flip to a different page and then I had these maps where you had to like unfold it and they were like, how did you get anywhere?

I'm like, you called people for directions and they just dictated them. They're like, what? 

Nicholas: Oh yeah. Oh, I remember those days. Oh my gosh. I remember dialing phones. I remember. Oh yeah. These things, I remember, I don't know, it was probably about five years ago. I was walking with the kids in airport and they were just transfixed because they saw a phone booth.

They'd never seen one except in a movie. I'm like, Oh my gosh. Right. Payphone. Yeah. They're almost a thing of the past now. 

Zibby: Yeah, crazy. Well, thank goodness for, for GPS. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors? 

Nicholas: It's always the same, right? You, you, you got to read a lot. You have to read a lot and you have to read a lot in a variety of genres.

And that's what I think people don't always necessarily understand. Like, let's say you want to write something like me. And I'm not saying that you should, but whatever you're, you're going to do, you can't just read what I've written. You kind of have to read what I've read as well. Because as I said, you know, if you're going to do, um, if Jasper is going to have an element of faith, well, certainly I've read some faith books.

If I do safe saven and I, I, I, there's a supernatural element. Well, you probably should have read some horror or ghost stories along the way. If you're going to add an element of danger, well, you probably should read some thrillers along the way too. So, cause I pull from all of these different elements or areas and, and I learned something from most books that I read, whether they work or whether they don't work or whether one part, one section works well, or one doesn't, you learn what to do and what not to do.

So you have to read a lot and of course you have to. Eventually sit down and start putting your thoughts on paper. I think another good idea is to know what you're writing even before you begin. What is it? Is it a thriller? Is it a romance novel? Is it, what is it? Is it a coming of age novel? I think, you know, because.

Each of those genres have different elements, uh, but there's some common elements to every common, every coming of age story, for instance, for instance, in a coming of age story, voice tends to be incredibly important, even more important, often than the actions of the characters, its voice and how they sound.

So. You know, you read A Walk to Remember, and it's a sweet little love story, but a big chunk of that is really about, it's Landon's voice, as he tells the story, that's what makes that, that particular novel impactful. So you gotta read, and then you gotta write, and you gotta know what you wanna write. And There you go.

That's about it. 

Zibby: I'm more in the coming of middle age genre at the moment. 

Nicholas: Right. The Caitlin's of the world. Yeah, 

Zibby: exactly. Caitlin was right, right up my alley there. By the way, there was one author who I talked to recently, and now I'm, I can't remember who it was, but they were talking about a success story and how a friend of theirs had this friend who slept on the couch and, you know, like crashed on the couch for years and said he was always trying to write this book and everyone's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Anyway, it turns out it was you. 

Nicholas: It was me. Yeah. 

Zibby: Were you on someone's, you must've been on someone's couch at some point saying you were going to write a book. 

Nicholas: Oh yeah. It was probably back in college and I was like, yeah, you know, um, I'm going to write one day and I'd written a novel when I was 19 and another one at 22.

There's a difference, you know, you're full of some hubris back then and you think anything's possible. At the same time, I wasn't sure I could ever write well enough to be an author as my sole occupation. You know, I figured I might write on the side and we'll see what happens with that. I've been fortunate in that my first novel did fairly well, and I've been able to just do this and only this.

Zibby: Well, I like, I like the double meaning of your soul occupation became.. 

Nicholas: My soul occupation when I wrote the notebook, I was selling pharmaceuticals. And I think that's the case of most people who write their first novel. Most of them, well, you know, you still have bills to pay and you have to do that. And if it's important to you, you'll, you'll find the time to make, to create your own story.

Zibby: Amazing. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for this very, very powerful book and it will stick with me and definitely really made me feel and think, which of course is what a great book does. So congratulations. 

Nicholas: Thank you very much. Have a wonderful day. 

Zibby: You too. Bye bye. 

Nicholas: Bye.