Zibby chats with author Jess H. Gutierrez about A PRODUCT OF GENETICS (AND DAY DRINKING), a laugh-out-loud, bawdy memoir-in-essays that is overflowing with 90s nostalgia and relatable tales of a millennial who feels like a dumpster fire. Jessica describes her chaotic childhood, boomer mom, and coming-out journey while reminiscing on the 90s—from Wow Chips and Journey to glamour shots and candy cigarettes. She also reflects on motherhood, her struggles with fertility, her decision to take writing seriously, and the book she is working on now.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Jez. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss your book, A Product of Genetics and Day Drinking, A Never Coming of Age Story.

Congratulations. 

Jessica: Hey, thank you. I'm so excited to be here. 

Zibby: Oh, I'm so excited to have you. Oh my gosh, your book is so funny. I was just, you know, saying this before we got on, but I am 47 and everything in the book is like, a walk down memory lane. You, there's every reference to things I had totally forgotten about and things I hadn't.

And like, anytime you start a book with Cheap Trick, I'm like, yes, I was in it for Journey and all the stuff. And anyway, congratulations. Tell, tell listeners about the book. 

Jessica: Oh my gosh. Um, so this is, it's a coming of age story. Um, it just kind of has all of, it's funny because it's a memoir. It's, it's a memoir essay collection, but I really feel like it's a shared experience.

The stories are about me, but it's about growing up. I was born in 1982. So I'm the very beginning of the millennials. And I was raised by my boomer mom who, you know, was listening to Cheap Trick and Journey. And in fact, my mom growing up, she told me that my real dad was. Steve Perry from journey. And I believed it, like, imagine my disappointment, you know, my, you know, I was just, when I finally found out, I was like, mom, and you know, but, um, that was the generation that raised us.

So this whole book is about, um, you know, riding our bikes to gas stations, 12 miles away that we had no business doing that. And, you know, things like smoking candy, cigarettes, and, um, the music that we listened to and the fashion and glamor shots and my coming out story. All of that. So it was so much fun to just kind of vomit it all into a book.

Zibby: I loved it. And you know, the essays were so, like, bite sized. You can read just one, like, at a time and get, like, all the humor and all of it. Like, I really appreciate a short essay, right? The zing of the experience. One of the ones, I mean, there's so many I want to talk about, but one of the ones that was so funny was when you were talking about a lust trap.

Do you remember? And the Lays and all of that. Wait, I want to find this whole thing. Because, you know, I was doing that too. The Baked, they weren't called Baked Lays. What were they called? Like, just the. 

Jessica: I think they were called Wow Chips, maybe. 

Zibby: Wow Chips. Yeah, whatever. Wait, oh my gosh, now I can't find it, but.

Jessica: And the whole, the whole ball of it was that it gave us all diarrhea. Like, that was the worst. 

Zibby: And then that your mom was on Fen Fen, right? Wasn't she on Fen Fen? And you were like, and then she didn't want to go off and like, just all the things. Well, I can't find it. But anyway, all the things that we all do, you know, I've been open about being on Manjaro.

So I'm sort of like in this whole world. And I had a mom who was like eating, you know, cottage cheese and fruit every day and doing all the things. And anyway, just to have you. Just shine a light on how crazy the whole thing is. It's so funny. 

Jessica: It is, and the fact that we know it's crazy and we still kind of perpetuate it, right?

Like, I watched my mom wear the, like, uh, the trash bag to sweat it out, you know? And I've done just crazy things, and I'm like, well, I know. better than all this. And I'm, I don't want to be showing my daughter any of this or my sons, but I'm like, Oh, you know, so it's just funny. 

Zibby: Yeah. So funny. The coming out part you referenced a second ago, that was also great.

And can I read like a little bit of this chapter unbeknownst queer? Is that okay? 

Jessica: Yes. 

Zibby: You were like, this is what you said. Let me clarify something. There was never a time when I wasn't queer. There was, however, a super long stretch in my life during which I had no idea that I was. My friends were gay.

Most of the people I admired were gay. My family was pretty sure I was gay. I was super attracted to women, and androgyny in general. Even with all that, I wasn't queer. It never occurred to me that I was queer. Tell me about all of that and you're so funny with the guys and oh my gosh. Anyway, 

Jessica: I dated guy after guy after guy and I had fun with them.

You know, I wanted to go to movies and hang out and do all the things, but when it would get much further than that, I'd be like, Oh, Something is amiss and I had no problem being, and in fact, I was like, well, this is cool, but it just didn't occur to me for the longest time that that was what was going on.

And I, you know, so I had, oh my gosh, so many ridiculous dates with guys that they didn't understand it more than I, you know, we did, we were doing all the things except, you know, the things they mostly wanted to be doing.

Um, yeah. And so my coming out story. And then when I did, no one in my family was surprised. None of my friends were surprised. So it was a little bit disappointing. I mean, I didn't want, you know, hysteria or, uh, you know, police to have to show up, but I wanted some reaction and there was nothing, nobody, you know, my best friend, who's an amazing best friend was like, let's go out, let's celebrate.

You know, she just wanted to party though, is the truth of it. You know. 

Zibby: Any, any excuse is funny. You also have this whole part about you and your mom. So you grew up in 20, you moved 20 times. You lived in a trailer for part of the time. And at one point, your mom befriends a group of women who start babysitting and joined a book club with her.

And she has these Oprah's book club, you know, dreams. And then your dad says, you know, this is actually like, what is like, not what's the polite way to say this? 

Jessica: Prostitutes. Yeah. They were next door and they'd become my mom's best friends. Yeah. So it, it, that, you know, that was part of growing up and they, it became the people that we trusted most in our lives.

And they were, they were really lovely, lovely women. But you know, it was just another crazy part of the whole picture. 

Zibby: She's like, give me back, like, I'm never using the Cuisinart again. You have great, great closing lines on all these chapters, like they all like end with such a punch. It's, it's, it's great.

Wait, so tell me, wait, go back to talk about you and writing. When did you start writing? When did this book come about? Like, where, how did we get here? 

Jessica: Well, I've been writing, kind of reading and writing forever. We moved so much that I didn't have a lot of friends. And so books were always the thing. I had two younger brothers, but they were two younger brothers and they were best friends.

So I was part of their little ring, but you know, kind of on the outside sometimes too. So I was always writing. And I wrote and wrote and wrote, and I was a newspaper reporter for a while. And then I found out that they don't really pay writers any money, really. Part of a newspaper reporter, and they started kind of doing layoffs.

And I didn't want my career as a newspaper reporter to end being laid off. I went to the community college and I found a degree. I went into respiratory therapy school, which has served me really well. And I've, I've loved it, but I remember I had, we had all kinds of issues with infertility, my wife and I did, and we finally had a baby in 2015 and then another one in 2017, and I was holding that baby, my son.

Who's now my middle son, um, in 2017. And I remember I was, you know, all of the terrible things. I mean, babies are wonderful. They're also monsters, you know, they're terrible. They make, I, especially the first few months, it's everything you wanted, but you also just always want to throw up because you're so tired and your hormones are just out of control.

And I remember looking at him one day and saying to him, you can be anything you want to be anything. You know, and I believed it with all my heart. And then I thought. You know, my hormones like tidal wave and they were like, you can too. And you're not doing that. You're not showing your kids to do the thing that you're telling them, be your dream, do your dream.

And I wasn't doing it. So that night I, during, you know, 2 AM breast feedings and probably lots of tears, I started writing and I started writing children's books actually. And I wrote and started trying to find an agent. I found an agent and, um, ended up not having that agent for very long. to another agent, uh, Claire Draper, who was going to represent me on a children's book.

And we sent it on sub and they were very positive and very excited. Didn't, did not sell that first book. And so it was okay. I had more, I always have more up my sleeve. I, you know, the plan was, I was determined. So I wrote five or six romance novels, rom coms, and they kept going on sub making it, they almost s close, which is so much w You know, having the news happening and then it's n to make me eat like an en sized Snickers every time totally fine.

And then my friendly said, Jess, it's And I was like, stop. And they were like, stop writing what you think I want. Stop writing this crap for your mom. It's good. It's fine, but it's not great. And of course, like I had another bag of that chocolate because that hurt my heart. But that day, that exact day, I called my mom and I was like, Mom, I want to write a story that might not be the most flattering thing.

And she was like, if you're talking about kind of your life story, it's the same thing I've been telling you forever and Claire's right. And so I said, are you sure? And she was like, I know I'm going to look crazy and it's fine. You know? And so I sat down and then just a, a fury, like, But on fire, I wrote this book and it just kept coming and coming and coming and the way it felt when I was writing it, I couldn't stop, you know, it, it just, and so I knew it was the right thing.

And we went on sub with this book after all of those being on sub with books, we went on sub with it November 10th and I'd sworn, I'm sorry, I'm all over the place, but I'd sworn, I said, A book by the time I'm 40. By the time I'm 40, I will sell a book. Well, 14 days before my birthday, we hadn't gone on set with this book yet.

And I was like, I will sell a book in my forties. When, before 41, that's still, well, Claire sold that book on my 40th birthday. 

Zibby: No way. 

Jessica: My 40th birthday was 10 days after we went on set. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. 

I have like goosebumps. 

Jessica: Me too. I almost, yeah, it, every time I think about it, I'm like, you know, the universe was like, okay, Jess, this is the bone we're going to throw it.

And I ended up with the most amazing publishing team. And, um, Phoebe Robinson is my editor. I just, it's been a, it's been a dream, like a dream. And, um, so yeah, that baby that I talked to at 27 and said, anything, anything can happen. You can do anything. I was, you know, you say that sometimes. But it happened.

It's real. So I'm really excited that I wasn't lying to my infant. 

Zibby: That's so, that's like the ultimate, like, re parenting yourself, you know what I mean? It's like, when you say the things, and you're like, wait, I'm actually talking to the me of, of your, do you know what I mean? 

Jessica: Like, I am now my own Miyagi. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh, I love that story so much. That's so great. I mean, it sounds obvious, right? Right? What is comfortable, right? You know, but most of us are like, Well, but that won't be good. Or like, who wants to hear that? Or that's not, you know. worth publishing. That's just like my thoughts, but it turns out it is worth publishing and that's what people want is other people's thoughts and to get to know other people and their stories and because they you see yourself and the littlest slivers even if your life is completely different.

Jessica: Yeah, I think that too and I was that's what I thought I thought who would want to read a story about me but then as I looked at when I was like it's not really Just a story about me. It's us, you know, it's a whole generation of messy people. We are also messy. And I think that just not pretending to be messy is one of the most freeing things that I've ever let myself do.

Just, you know, I'm a disaster. Sometimes I have to walk my kids in late to school in pants. They don't want other people to see and I'm sorry, I'm doing my best over here. You know, I mean, that's just what we look like and, and it's okay and, you know, we are all together in this, even if it's really isolating sometimes.

Zibby: I refuse to open WhatsApp because I can't like figure out how to use it properly so that I sort things. And now I have like hundreds and hundreds of messages and all sorts of groups. And I'm like, I just can't. So I often have like been down there with the kids waiting for the bus, and there's no bus.

And everyone's like, I'm like, Hey, where's the bus? I start texting. It was in the WhatsApp. There's no bus. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I have to get the kids to school. 

Jessica: That is well, and it's the same, you know, the, the WhatsApp, the 74 emails the school sends every day, which I appreciate the check-ins, but, Ooh, that is, that's a lot to go through.

And you know that the one that you don't read is the one that's like, we're releasing your kids into a field at 12:20 PM today if you don't come get them. You know, it's just, we're all just trying to keep up and they're so, such, so much. 

Zibby: Yesterday, field trip, you have to sign this release, like, or your kid can't go on the field trip.

And my son's like, Mom, the release, I'm like, I literally just got the thing. Like it was today. Don't give me a little time here. 

Jessica: Yeah. Oh yeah. Last night, my kid, my daughter at, you know, 7 30 PM was like, and she's eight, you know, she was like, it's rest, like your career day tomorrow. And I was like, it, it, it's, bedtime in 32 minutes. Great. You know, that's great news. So then I'm making a costume, which I have no talent for doing, you know, and it's, it's just so funny and I feel like we are all doing this.

Zibby: I've just given up. I'm like, okay, pretend you want to be like a teacher and just wear your clothes or something. I mean, I wouldn't even, you know, it's like funny hat day.

Guess what? You're not wearing a hat. Like, yeah, and they're like, we don't want to wear a hat on funny hat day. Anyway, like, great. 

Jessica: Who are my people? I need you to be those people because sometimes we're just not going to have a hat. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Jessica: I have a toaster scribble in the back of the car. If you can dig that out, somehow you can use that.

It's fine. But that we have no hat. I'm sorry. Exactly. 

Zibby: Yeah. I love it. Boy cutting. I mean, we all have to just do what we do to get through. I mean, there's too much, I mean, that's why it's, that's why your book is so funny, right? I mean, not, it's part of why, I mean, you have, you talk about so many different things, but part of it is just like the acknowledgement that it's impossible and, but instead of saying life is impossible, you're like, let me give you 8,000 examples of this , 

Jessica: 8,000 examples.

Zibby: You could fill probably a million more books of all the stuff. Speaking of which, so are you going to be writing more books? What's the plan now? 

Jessica: Um, I'm actually under contract with the same publisher, Tiny Rep, for my second book. I actually just turned in edits and I'm waiting. 

Zibby: Wow. 

Jessica: You know, for my editor to see them, but it's adulthood for amateur stories of a geriatric millennial, which is also offensive.

Zibby: No, no, no. 

Jessica: So you said that you're Gen X, right? You're Gen X. 

Zibby: I mean, I guess. 

Jessica: I feel like some of us are just kind of in the middle of just being all the, you know, Gen X, the older Gen Xs are the ones that beat us up on the playground, you know? 

Zibby: So I was not beating anybody up on the playground. 

Jessica: It's so funny though, because there's just this weird in the middle.

And I feel like that's a lot about what this book is, is that some of us don't really fit into either, but have them. So many memories from both. And so that's kind of, I think that's kind of fun. 

Zibby: My husband is born in 1982 and I'm in 1976. And we have like different cultural references. I'm like, it was not that many years apart for like how we've not seen all these movies.

And like, you know, it's, it's crazy. 

Jessica: Yeah. 

Zibby: The differences in our culture. Oh my gosh. So Let me just, like, pick at random one of the funniest things. Oh, you're funny. You're so funny. The 14 year dry stretch. Fictional film in the 90s. Disclaimer, if I were a normal girl writing a normal book, there wouldn't be a whole chapter entirely focused on fictional film characters of the late 1990s.

But as you've come to learn, there's no direction in which this story is afraid to wander. Oh my god, you're so funny. The whole thing with Rose and Jack. I mean, Taco Bell. You're just so funny. When you were thinking of essays for this, so they all just like came out and like how did you organize them and did you know it was essays versus a memoir?

Because sometimes they're like, oh, essays don't sell as well as memoir and you know, there's all that stuff. Stuff, which I disagree with, but whatever. 

Jessica: Lucky enough. And this does not sound like you at all. This sounds kind of dumb. Actually, I didn't do any research. I didn't know that any of this was a hard sell.

I didn't know. I think I would have been really intimidated if I had done any of the work. I like to say I'm lazy, but I don't think I'm lazy. I really, you know, I'm just a busy mom and they're my focus and that's what I do. So when I wrote these, I didn't know that. It would not be easy, you know, when I sent it to Claire, Claire was like, this is wonderful, blah, blah, blah.

And Claire didn't tell me because Claire knows I'm a little crazy. So my agent was like, we'll just. Not let Jess know any of the things that she didn't research. So when I was writing them, I was just writing stories. And when I wrote a story about Titanic, it made me think of something else and something else.

And I was like, Oh, this bar, this thing that happened with this girl. And they just kept happening. My editor was awesome in saying, okay, this is a lot of thoughts. And we're going to have to organize them. My editor is also amazing. Emmy. His Emmy Icon is also really good at, I'm, I'm a big, I'll write, write, write, write, write.

And then I just want to be done. Like, okay, I'm finished with Jack and Rose. And I don't want to talk about the Titanic anymore just for this moment, but I definitely want to talk about it. And this is so good, but it doesn't have an ending. And I'm like, does everyone have to have an ending? Apparently that's really important.

Uh, so that was something I really had to learn is to. Finish, I guess the essays having kids. I feel like this goes so much in theme with what you're doing here. Um, having kids, uh, there is no schedule time to write when you're the primary caregiver. It does not matter what you're doing. You are still doing the laundry and.

The kids will bypass their other mom if they need a bandaid. That's just how that's, you know, my spouse is a firefighter. She works a lot and I stay home, um, mostly. And so the kids, they come to me for most of those things. So it's really funny because. Writing is the same way. There's no, there are no office hours.

So this book, this a product of genetics and day drinking, I wrote 100 percent entirely other than the edits in the notes app on my phone. 

Zibby: No way. 

Jessica: Yeah. I will write an essay. And I just did it with my second book You write the 2, 500 words. I think you can get to 3, 000 words in a note and to, and then it cuts you off, but you don't really know it cuts you off.

And then you look and it's like, Oh, some, Oh, it's gone. Stuff is missing, but I will write the 2, 500 words and then email them to myself and then put in my word document and then write another essay and email. And that's what I do at 2 AM, 3 AM. That's when I'm doing my writing. I have that 20 month old at home and, you know, and that's one thing that I think that parents and I would have never said, Oh, I'm incredible. I'm amazing. But you see moms and dads and parents and people that take care of kids, just do ridiculous things that to make things better and to show their kids, you know? So I'm writing 2, 500 word essays and notes apps. And I, to get this done and I, I did.

And so it's, it feels, it feels really big to me. It feels like a big deal and, um, 

Zibby: It should feel like a big deal. That's huge. I mean, first of all, I can't even like get the hang of my notes app. You know, it's really simple. Like my daughter just tried to share a note with me with like her birthday wishlist or something.

And I'm like, you can share notes. Did you know that you can like have a collab on a note? I was like, this is so cool. So now all of a sudden I'm in her notes. 

Jessica: I didn't know that and I use them all the time. 

Zibby: Yeah, you can just collab now with your editor and just send her all the notes. 

Jessica: That's amazing. 

Zibby: I know, but I'm learning all these things too.

But you basically had to type it all just like do do do on your phone. Like that, that, the, the manual dexterity involved in doing that is also impressive because I'm so much faster with all my fingers on a keyboard than just like do do do, you know. 

Jessica: My mom will watch me and she'll be like, that's ridiculous.

I'm like, you know. 

Zibby: You do what you have to do. 

Jessica: You just, you just do it. Just like she did what she had. I mean, we all just started figuring it, you know. 

Zibby: Wow. Imagine what you could do if you had time. 

Jessica: I tell my wife that I'm like, oh my gosh, what could be in here? She's like, yeah. 

Zibby: I mean, imagine you're going to have so many, you're going to just have essays like coming out of your ears.

You know, 

Jessica: I have about 20 on my phone right now that are like midway and I'm at the point where I either need to spin it because it's, it becomes a lot, you know. 

Zibby: How do you know what to save for your books versus like your sub stack? 

Jessica: My favorites? Well, it really just depends. Um, the books are kind of thematic.

So if it's going with a theme, then. I know that that one should be saved. And then others that just need to happen right now, or something ranty like a Walmart encounter, you know, just vomit it out and send it to my, you know, so. 

Zibby: Wow. Do you ever talk? I mean, this is sounding like a random question. Like, I feel like you could have, uh, not just a writing thing, but like you have so much material and your brain is just like always processing it. And so funny, you could do more than just the writing if you wanted, you know what I mean? Like you could do a podcast, you could do like a show. Like, I feel like, you know what I mean?

Like your, your thoughts on stuff, if it's really just like pouring out. There are other avenues too. 

Jessica: I would love that. I'm, I have always been so interested in comedy. Um, just because, you know, yeah, it's kind of my background, um, or not my background, but I guess it's sort of my coping mechanism, but it's a, it's a really fun coping mechanism.

If you, you know, if you need one, it's so yeah, I absolutely think that my editor was really good about not letting me go dark. Cause you know, I grew up in my family. I have a funny family. I'm certainly not the funniest person in my family. My mom is. weird, funny, and my, I have a brother who's really funny, but we all have a tendency to go a little dark on humor.

And that isn't always the most well received. So you have to be really careful with that, you know, to not do that. So my editor a couple of times was like, Hey, not this one. This is a little, you know, good. I'm so glad I'm being censored a little bit. So that's always appreciated. 

Zibby: Do you ever think about publishing all those romance novels, like under a different name or something?

Jessica: I do think about them. And I do think now that I, Now that I've kind of unleashed that the side where I feel more comfortable just Saying everything because I'm just really holding back in those books. And I think that if I hadn't, I think if I went back through and I, I was telling my agent, I'm like, I'm going to dirty them up a little bit.

And they're like, Oh, and I'm like, no, not in that way. I'm just going to make them sound a little bit more like me, because I think that it works. I write the way that I talk. Yes. I think that people may be like that. Like, I want, I want you to read my book and think that you're gossiping with your best friend.

I want to be, I feel like the whole book is gossip about me, about, I didn't, you know, I want it to just be like you're talking smack with someone that, you enjoy being with and giggling with and all those things. And so I think if I went back through those books, I would, I would know what I had missed and be able to make them funny.

Zibby: You should totally do that. Oh my gosh. And you, do you still live in Arkansas? Did I get that right? 

Jessica: I do. We live in Northwest Arkansas. 

Zibby: Yeah. That's so cool. So not even Little Rock.

Jessica: No, no, no. We live in Northwest Arkansas, so yeah. 

Zibby: Um, there are other writers 

Jessica: here. I'm not very well connected to them. I have met through, um, my 2024, we have a debut group for another author, uh, Travis Simpson.

He is debuting this year with a book, uh, Strong Like You. And he and I have become really good friends because that's an interesting experience to be publishing a book for the first time. So he's an, um, another, uh, writer in the Ozarks, but, um, yeah, I've just, it's been writing this book. That's making me kind of reach out.

I'm an introvert. I'm an extroverted introvert, which I know is a. People say that, but I really just want to be basically hiding under my bed from other people. And so it's been really interesting putting myself in different situations. But yeah, I do not have a writer's group. I didn't, I don't have beta readers.

I've never done any of that. I've never done any of this. So this has all been so new and so much fun. Oh my gosh. It's been wild. It's been a dream. It's been a literal dream come true. It really has. 

Zibby: Well, if you venture out to LA, you have to come to an event at my store. I have a bookstore in LA called Zibby's Bookshop.

So if you are doing any touring, I was looking at your website, but anyway, if you go. 

Jessica: I did a normal amount of safe legal stalking of you before. I'm such a huge admirer. You just being so real about what it's like to be a parent. That isn't, we need that, you know, we, we are all living the same thing and it's, it's so nice to have that solidarity.

Zibby: So thank you. Sometimes I'm like, I don't know, life would be a lot easier if I didn't do all this book stuff. And I just started talking about my life as a mom again. I'm like, do you know how much time I would save if that's really what people like that I do? 

Jessica: No, I like all of it. And the book stuff is so much fun.

It's so much fun. I have decided that I do want to be you when I grow up, if I grow up. Um, I'm very close in age, so I feel like, um, it might not happen, but I, goals. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. So funny. Well, thank you. I'm very flattered. I don't have my stuff together either. They're always things. I mean, you know, we're all just doing our best every day and, you know.

My kids are like addicted to their iPads and that's like really the secret sauce. So, you know, we'll see how they turn 

Jessica: out. It's so funny. I had a mom the other day be like, what do your kids do to earn their iPad? like, 

Zibby: Oh, my kids wake up. 

Jessica: Get in my face. Uh, you know, math, calculus. No, they're just on. I'm not.

Zibby: Yeah. I know. I was at someone's house yesterday and they were like, Oh, I got this was like, the kid was like, I got this with part of my allowance that I'd saved. And I was like, Allowance. I know I'm supposed to be doing that. That would require like a whole system of like, what's the allowance for? And what's, I'm like, I don't have time for that.

Like, what do you, you know, anyway. 

Jessica: No, absolutely. Like, I know, but there are also things I, and I do, I'm like, I, I'm this and this, we eat crap, all of these things. And I'm like, but you know what? I'm low holidays out of the freaking water. Like Santa, like nobody else, you know what I mean? I have. 

Zibby: Yeah, and they have fun.

I think our kids are having a lot of fun. They feel loved, and they're having a blast. And even if they don't wear a hat on hat day, and they don't have an audience, and whatever, they are going to have a blast and be really great people. 

Jessica: Yes! That's nice! 

Zibby: Anyway, hopefully they'll all be friends. That would be fun.

Jessica: Hopefully they don't write memoirs about us. 

Zibby: Exactly. Yes, we will commiserate when their memoirs come out. Oh my gosh, too many. Well, oh my gosh, Jess, congratulations. This was so fun and I hope I get to meet you in person. I've never been to Arkansas. That's really cool. I want to even hear more about that.

But anyway, congratulations. I hope you never come of age. 

Jessica: Me too. Thank you so much. 

Zibby: All right. Take care. Bye.