Zibby welcomes back award-winning author Chelsea Bieker to discuss MADWOMAN, a brilliant, urgent, heart-smashing, darkly comic, and absolutely unforgettable novel about motherhood, memory, generational violence, and the menace of an untold past. Chelsea shares the inspiration behind the book, which she wrote during the pandemic as she started to confront her own past. She delves into the intensity of motherhood, the societal pressures that mothers face, and the lengths women go to save themselves and others. She also discusses the long-term effects of domestic violence, a theme deeply rooted in her own childhood experiences. Finally, she shares her journey as a writer.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Chelsea. Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Madwoman. Congrats. 

Chelsea: Thanks, Zibby. It's so good to be here. I love talking to you, so I'm thrilled for today. 

Zibby: Yay, me too. It was funny because I was reading some of the reviews and how one of them said, you know, this is a, like, maybe it was you who said I wanted It's a book that makes you sweat, or I want you to sweat when you're reading it, or something.

So I mentioned this. 

Chelsea: I probably said that. 

Zibby: Yeah. I think you said that. So I mentioned it to my son because I was working next to him like all day yesterday and I'm like, this is a book that makes me, I'm supposed to sweat. So every like half an hour he'd look over and he's like, sweating mom? Sweating yet?

So anyway, it was great. Okay. Tell listeners about the book. 

Chelsea: So this is my third book, it's my second novel. I wrote this, I had the idea back in 2018 around then and, you know, was still working on my other books and kind of put it down, but it really just stuck with me. And when lockdown happened, I suddenly, I was supposed to go on a book tour and instead, as we all were, I was just at home with my two really young children and I started writing this book in earnest at that point.

I think it was just a time when I was really kind of understanding my own past in a new way, you know, I think as we age and also our kids get older, I don't know, for me, it's been true that I've kind of had to reprocess certain things that I experienced. So I was kind of going through a big upheaval in that and, you know, You know, it's really a book about sort of the urgency and immediacy of motherhood while we're doing all of that really deep self work at the same time, which I just feel like all of my friends are doing that, that deeper self work and that healing work.

And maybe it's generational, but you're doing it alongside parenting. young kids and it's like a pressure cooker at times. So I think the book really has that energy of it, of that feeling. And it's really about, you know, how far women will go to save themselves and each other. I felt that I had to explore these, the issues in the book are, you know, domestic violence, friendship, female friendship, motherhood.

And I just wanted those all to kind of like combust together. 

Zibby: Wow. Well, I have to say you sort of hit the nail on the head with the kid part. I mean, I can't speak to the violence aspects, although I want to talk to you about all that because it was so powerful and really just gripping and amazing and upsetting and all the good things that a book can do.

Not good, but you know, bad things that make you feel, which is a good thing when you read. Nevermind. You know what I mean? Yes. Anyway, with the kid part, it's like all the things, when you got really, and not you, when your character got really angry at the post office. Because her kid got yelled at for playing with the Legos on the counter and it's like why would you put Legos on the counter?

And they were like it's from Lego Masters, which by the way, I love love watching Lego Masters and all those things like okay Now the kids are getting ice cream and now she's doing this with the kids and now like it's just so real like that Is what happens in the course of the day and you just like Put us right in there, except, of course, as you said, you layer on these huge themes and big plot elements in the background.

So the kid piece, nailed. Did you just like have a, an event with your kids or like a moment and you just came home and wrote about it or it all just came? Mixing into the pot. 

Chelsea: Definitely a mix. But the scene you mentioned in the post office that that happens pretty early in the book. So I hope that readers will the readers I've heard from so far seem to be relating to that moment that she has in the post office with her two Children.

And I think I really, you know, that really happened to me pretty much like I have definitely cried in the post office on more than one occasion, but that was, that was a big one because I, I think in that moment, it hit me really hard that so few spaces are actually carved out for mothers and children.

And the first line of the book is. The world is not made for mothers yet. Mothers made the world. And I felt that really strongly when my kids were small, especially because, you know, you're really showing up in the world as this new person and you just see all the little ways that like things become very difficult or spaces just really aren't created with you in mind.

Uh, and the post office, that moment, I was like, wow, I'm just here to do something so simple. But. I feel like I'm set up for failure at every turn and, and this, yes, this Lego display, which is at child height, any kid would want to play with that. And then sort of that feeling. I really wanted to explore that feeling of judgment that comes so often toward mothers.

Especially in public from strangers, you know, maybe you felt it. It's the worst feeling and it feels like really full of shame. And, and I kind of left the post office that day feeling like, I guess I'm not really meant to be anywhere. Like, I guess I'll just stay at home. That's how it kind of felt. And I wanted to reflect that in the book.

I wanted to show her in those kind of those moments that really do happen and they feel so difficult in the moment. And we can look back and kind of laugh at that moment. But man, I was not laughing that day. So. 

Zibby: I've had many moments like that. Of course, then when she does stay home to, you know, unearth And one of her kids gets hurt.

Her husband's like, uh, don't you think it's time for a nanny? What do you think? 

Chelsea: Yes. Yeah. And, and in the book, you know, she has a lot of anxiety going on because of her upbringing. It's hard for her to lose control or give control to someone else or even accept help. If help is around, it just feels so unsafe for her to do that.

And, and that was also something I experienced in young motherhood was like. That feeling that I couldn't really relinquish that control or something terrible would happen. And I wanted to explore that too. I was like, all those things kind of find their way in this story. I mean, I still feel like that. 

Zibby: I feel like I have my, my, my older kids are 17 and I'm still like, oh my gosh, like be careful.

It's terrible. 

Chelsea: Yeah. No one can really prepare you for what. That feeling is like, right? Like you could rationalize it prior to experiencing it. And you're like, Oh, surely I'll be well adjusted. And then you kind of get into it and. It's a feeling that you can't describe, it's so all encompassing, that feeling of responsibility for your child, so.

Zibby: Which goes totally counter to her own father, whose sense of responsibility differed, or he showed his love in quite odd ways, if in fact it was love, but, which could be debated, but he was incredibly abusive, and the way that you detail the violence was really horrible and terrifying. Tell me about how personal this was.

If you can, if you want to talk about it, you don't have to talk about it. I read in the acknowledgements, it sounded like it came from some experience, but tell me a little bit more about that. 

Chelsea: Yeah, it definitely did. I mean, I grew up, my parents had a really volatile relationship and my father was really emotionally and physically abusive to my mom.

And I, I, I just was born into that. You know, there was never really a moment where that wasn't the atmosphere for my childhood. And I think that it's interesting, you know, I've written about my mom so much. It's a reoccurring theme for me. It's, you know, our relationship was sort of the greatest heartbreak of my life, but it wasn't until I was really writing this book that I had to kind of confront it.

You know, there was always just this family story about her that really was centered more on her addiction. Mm hmm. And like her addiction was really the cause of everything that had gone wrong and being a mother myself and, and kind of revisiting my childhood, I realized, well, yes, her addiction was there, but there was this other piece that no one really wants to talk about, which is the fact that she was being abused every single day for many, many years.

Mm hmm. And no one can mother under those circumstances, you know, I think the book really touches on that. It's like motherhood is hard enough in the best of circumstances. And so try to do it. If you're living under this absolute domestic terrorism every day, you can't, I mean, and, and she couldn't. And, and so I think it was me.

getting further to the truth of her experience of motherhood, which was totally derailed and tainted by the violence she was experiencing. But that's not really the story that was sort of presented, you know, it was easier to focus on her being an alcoholic and, and the, the entwinement of addiction and all of it is super prevalent too.

And that's in the book as well because it's all connected, right? It's all connected. But to me, it was sort of shifting what the, bedrock of it was from addiction to violence. I was like, yeah, the reason she Is doing the things she's doing. It's because she's living in this heightened experience every day, wondering, will I survive the day?

You know, and that being a question of your day is, is really changes how you show up in the world. So I wanted to explore that here. And. Yeah, I think it provided a lot of, I was able to gain a lot of compassion for her in the process of writing it and what felt like some sort of redemption that we never got.

I got to feel a little bit in writing this book. 

Zibby: Wow. Well, I'm sorry that that's what you were born into and that you had to contend with that and that your mom had to deal with all of that. But. How interesting and sort of freeing to reshape the narrative now and look at it in a new way. I mean, that's healing, I would think.

Chelsea: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And I hope that readers can sense that for themselves. The fact is, is that just statistically, like, we've all been touched by domestic violence in some way. Um, whether you know someone or you've experienced it yourself or you grew up around it. I mean, it's so prevalent. That I really do think it's the thing that that we've all maybe encountered or brushed up against in different ways.

So I think it's universal. 

Zibby: Then you also weave into the narrative, you know, what a mother will do to protect her child. Sort of in a different way when we're talking about, you know, How her father dies and I won't give anything away, but you know, that whole prison, I mean, it's pretty early when you first introduce it, but you know, the mother is in prison when you meet her and we'd learn more and more as the book goes on as to how and why everything went down and the neighbor and just like all, all of the things, but it's almost like it just never ends, right?

Like she escapes because he dies, but then what? Like prison is better? You know, does she ever, you know, is she at peace? Does she feel she made the right decision? I don't know. All those questions just kept turning around. 

Chelsea: Yeah, I, I was so interested in those long term effects, you know, because the narrator of the book is living a much different life, right?

She has a really beautiful life that she's created and she has a very peaceful family dynamic and she's worked really hard to get there. And yet, you know, she's sort of surprised at how she can't quite close the door on it so easily. It's something that she has to kind of process through and look at.

And I think the book in some ways is all about that. It's all about how we kind of have to face our, our shadow self before we can really truly be free. Um, we can't just pretend things didn't happen. And at least in my experience, that has been very true. And that's definitely what this character is at times very comically figuring out, you know, she would love if she could just pretend like she's a different person that never even knew those people of the past.

And I think she tries that she really tries to see if she can do that. And the answer is no. 

Zibby: She did, um, you know, in the book, she had confessed to an early boyfriend, which she of course, you know, Regrets. And then she decides not to say anything to her husband, which then of course puts another layer in her relationship.

And it's like self sabotage in a way, right? You can't totally connect with someone if you're hiding your identity and all of that. And we watch and see how that goes. Sort of affects their marriage as it, as it goes. Tell me, tell me about that piece and when you're only offering up part of yourself to someone who's theoretically as close to you as possible.

Chelsea: Yeah. I think she think when she kind of sets off at 17 on her own to create this new life. I think she thinks she will only be lovable if she's not tainted by this story that she has to carry. To her, it feels so burdensome to have to tell someone over and over, this was my childhood. These are, this is the situation with my parents.

Totally complicated and crazy. Like she's just tired of that. She's like, what if I just pretend like none of that exists and will I be more lovable if I show up in that more simple way, if I can kind of come to the table without this suitcase of trauma, will I be just easier to love and will I be able to find a greater happiness and normality?

I think that's a big thing she's after. Is she just wants this normal life what she has decided is normal and she just doesn't think she can get there if she's coming to the table with her with all of her scars showing, you know, and and I totally get that impulse. But what she really does find, like you're saying, is that it's very hard to create true intimacy or be known by another until we kind of peel back that, that layer and, and show who we really are.

And maybe we can all relate to that on some level. 

Zibby: Did you? Try that with some relationships and then have it backfire. Not that this is any of my business and you don't have to talk about it. 

Chelsea: No, I love it. No, not like this. Like, not to this level. I think it was more of fantasy for me. Like, like, what she does in the book by totally, like, Pretending the past didn't happen.

That's more of a fantasy. I love to think about when I'm writing fiction, writing into those sort of like personal fantasies, and that would be one of mine. I mean, the idea that you could just sort of decide, you know, I am not dealing with this anymore. Like, this is not my story. I'm done. I'm not going to carry it around.

I'm just going to pretend that I have, like, you know, I grew up with two parents and a happy dog and like a sibling, like in a yard that that was kind of like, Always my fantasy. And I never did that. It's funny because I met my husband, actually, I met my husband in high school or even younger, I've known him that long.

And so actually he kind of. There was no escaping. Like he just knew my life because he was the observer in some ways at a young age. And so he didn't get that convenience of not having to deal with, with everything. But yeah, I think it's, it's more of that fantasy feeling. Like what would it have been like to just pretend that I was a different person?

Zibby: And so when in your childhood or adulthood, when did you start writing? I know we discussed this last time, but as a, you know, refresher in case anyone's listening for the first time, having discovered head of women. 

Chelsea: Yeah, I was, I was always journaling and doodling and I was a huge reader, so it just felt natural, I think, at a very young age to kind of put feelings and thoughts onto paper.

So I was always doing that, always keeping a diary, kind of exploring how I was feeling and, and books were such a comfort. I think all of us readers know, you know, it's like that is such a companionship. I feel like my relationship to books is one of my foundational relationships in my life. It's one of the most beautiful relationships that I'll have in my life is to reading and to, to books and feeling understood.

In those deep ways that you can only sort of experience through that sustained attention of reading on paper, I think so that was always there. And then, you know, when I was in high school, I had a wonderful English teacher who stepped in at just the right moment, like they often do. And she kind of was observing that.

I was reading a lot, not like school reading. I actually wasn't a good student, but she saw that I was always reading my own thing off to the side. And she was like, why don't you write book reviews for the school paper? And that was life changing because otherwise I had almost no direction. And that gave me this, like this path to follow, like, Oh, I guess I could study journalism.

I guess I could work on this newspaper. And it gave me a lot of purpose. And it also kind of trained me really fast to be able to write quickly and meet a deadline and, and get a byline, like to see your own byline in the paper was really powerful for me. I was like, wow, I'm offering something to someone else and I'm writing about something I'm interested in and it just felt so good.

So I am always, I'm forever grateful to that teacher for kind of seeing me in that way. And that's just a lucky strike, I think, because you could easily kind of get lost in the shuffle. And so many people do, but she was able to kind of just turn me a little bit in a good direction. And I think it just went off from there.

But writing fiction was always what I was like doing on the side. 

Zibby: Wow. Teachers, the power of teachers just cannot be, cannot be understated, right? 

Chelsea: It cannot. I know. I feel like so many people have that story. Like, oh, and then came along this teacher who kind of, you know, said that one little thing to me that was so life changing because maybe we underestimate, you know, how porous we are at those younger ages and those, like, respected adults.

Yep. That maybe aren't our parents, you know, really matter like that. That can be very powerful. So I felt lucky for that. How old are your kids now? Well, today's my daughter's 10th birthday, actually. So yes, I'm 10 years in decade of motherhood under my belt and my son just turned six. So,.. 

Zibby: Oh, amazing. I was going to.

I was wondering if they were of the age where they could read some of your work yet, but not, not so much. 

Chelsea: Not yet. Yeah. 

Zibby: What are you working on now? 

Chelsea: I'm working on a new novel. I started it about a year ago. It just started with a faint little idea and it's really grown. I'm in that really fun part right now with it where It's exploratory and I'm kind of figuring out what it is really about because my experience with the writing process is usually like, I'll start with what I think it might be about and then the book just shows me what it's about.

And that's how I actually can tell something is going right. If I start to be surprised or I feel like, Oh, I didn't know that this book was going to include that or all those little connective threads start to form. And that's kind of where I, where I am with it right now. So it's. It's been that really fun baby phase of it.

Zibby: Anna Quindlen tells this story in her keynotes and everything about how she was writing one book and the dog like walks in and she literally says out loud, there's a dog in this book? Like she didn't even know. 

Chelsea: I love that. I love that. That to me, that's like why I write is that feeling of discovery that can really only come.

On the page like in the process, you know, I just think that's that's the magic for me.. 

Zibby: In addition to.. So, you have all your writing and dealing with kids and all that and promotion, obviously, of all the books. What do you like to do? Like, if you have half a day free and you don't have anything due, what's, what's like your dream day?

Chelsea: I like reading. No. I don't. I, I've been very into, I don't know. I just love long walks. I sound so boring. I'm like, I just need a long walk. If I can take like a long walk every day, I'm happy. Movement. I love, I like to movement has become so much more important to me in the last decade than ever before. I don't know.

I just feel like every day I really have to engage in some way with. Either walking or swimming swimming has become really big for me in the last year where I'm doing a lot more regular swimming Which feels really good for my soul and it's so therapeutic and feels so amazing So, I don't know. I'm just I think every day it's like, how can I fit that in?

I mean, honestly the B You're so inspiring. I look at you and I'm like, I have no idea how you do everything you do But you're out there doing so much good work in this world and doing so many. I think you have such a gift at making authors feel so seen and so special and so celebrated like that. That just feels like one of your amazing gifts and I don't know, that's inspiring to me.

So just, I'm trying to just think about how can I be really present? How can I really show up for the people I love the most in these deeper ways? And celebrate them. You know, I heard maybe it's a thing that kids are saying now. It's like give people their flowers now. Like tell people how you feel now.

Don't wait. Doesn't have to be a special occasion. Just, I don't know, just being present with people and making them feel good. Seen and special is something you're so good at and something I strive to do as well. I think that's becoming more important to me as I get older too. 

Zibby: Thank you for saying that.

That's really, really nice. Some days I am just struggling to, like, deal with myself. So, you know, with no sleep and whatever else. So hearing something nice is, is really wonderful. It doesn't always feel like I'm always doing stuff, even though everyone says that all the time. Anyway. 

Chelsea: You're incredible. No one, uh, we can all see it.

Zibby: Thank you. Thank you. Well, I really believe that all authors deserve to be celebrated. Like I believe that from, in my soul. It's not like a thing I'm doing to pass the time. Like I, you know, I read a book like yours and I feel like the pain of what you went through. Even though you don't, it's not a memoir, but like you can feel it, right?

You can, you can just like feel it seeping through the pages and yet there it is. And you can feel the frustration of motherhood. And you know, that the fact that like every day is like, who knows what's going to happen. And like, you're also dealing with so much stuff and you know, you're put right back into that moment and you're put into this situation where you understand the pain of others.

I mean, that's like total magic, and it's amazing, and then we all just get to dip in whenever we want. I mean, I know it sounds so silly, but like, I really believe it. I think it's amazing. 

Chelsea: It is. The fact, I just think it's like the number one way that people can build compassion and understanding for others is through reading, right?

It's like forever. That's how we connect to others through story and through. Really feeling that emotional truth. You're right. Like this book is not a memoir at all. None of my fiction is, all of my fiction takes some really wild like turns, but definitely, I just want to clarify to everyone, like definitely did not happen to me, but, but I am, it's almost like I blow those up.

To get at that really capital T, like emotional truth. And that's kind of what I go looking for when I'm reading as well. And you, and you know it when you see it, like you feel it. And, and that is the magic of, of reading and writing. So. 

Zibby: Amazing. 

Chelsea: We're, we're so lucky. Like, just to talk to you today, I'm like, I'm the luckiest person on earth.

I get to like, talk to Zibby about books. What could be better than that?

Zibby: And my son has this internship and he's like, okay, I'm going to go to work. And I'm like, yep. I'm going to go to work too. He's like, you're literally just like sitting at your desk talking to people. 

I was like, I have the bad job. I don't know what to say. 

Chelsea: The ways they cut us down, man. The ways they get, they're like, what, that?

Oh, you wrote a book? Who cares? I'm like, listen, some people think this is cool. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. Well, Chelsea, thank you and congratulations. And I know this is going to help a lot of people in addition to just captivate with like sort of the twists and turns. And so I don't know if it'll make people sweat, but stick with it. You will find your sweaty readers. 

Chelsea: Yes. Thank you for having me on and you actually have a hard cover of my book before I do. So, it's cool to see you holding it. Yeah. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. 

Chelsea: How does she look? How does it look? 

Zibby: It looks amazing. I actually like highlighted some passages which of course I forgot.

Chelsea: Yeah, I can't wait to see it. 

Zibby: I'll read this as we as we close. The dance of managing both motherhood and trauma was slowly eroding me. That is such a good line. That is such a good. 

Chelsea: There you go. 

Zibby: Okay, well I'm happy to send you my, my highlighted copy. Oh yeah, I'll just, oh yeah, then I have a big circle around Lego Masters.

Chelsea: So funny. Yeah, Lego Masters. He's local. Portland loves local, so local above all else. 

Zibby: All right. Thanks Chelsea. Have a great day. 

Chelsea: So good to see you. 

Zibby: Thanks