Bestselling Canadian author Catherine Mack joins Zibby to discuss EVERY TIME I GO ON VACATION, SOMEONE DIES, an irresistibly clever and hilarious series starring Eleanor Dash, a bestselling author whose Italian book tour turns into a real-life murder mystery when the man her protagonist is based on claims someone is trying to kill him—just as she decides to kill him off her series. Catherine discusses her writing career and publishing experiences, her love for including humorous footnotes (which she uses to brilliantly break the fourth wall in this novel), the challenge of blending genres, and the experience of adapting her novel for television.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Catherine. Thank you so much for coming on Mom's Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Every Time I Go on Vacation, Someone Dies a Novel. 

Catherine: Thanks for having me. I'm excited. 

Zibby: This is also, by the way, on my list of summer reads, recommended summer reads.

Catherine: I know. I just saw that. I posted about it. Thank you for reading the book. 

Zibby: Of course. I really loved it. You're so clever. I mean, the whole thing, even when you like break the fourth wall. I mean, it's really clever how you did this book. Really, really well. 

Catherine: Oh thank you, thank you. 

Zibby: You're welcome. 

Catherine: I was trying to push myself. To do something different, so.

Zibby: Yeah, so tell listeners 

Catherine: about the book. So the book is about an author named Eleanor Dash. She has a long running mystery series where the protagonist detective is a man named Connor Smith. But he is based on a real person that she met in Italy ten years earlier. And he's driving her insane, and so she's decided to kill him off.

In the books, and while, uh, on book tour with him in Italy for the 10th anniversary of the first book, and he comes up to her right after she's made that decision and says someone's trying to kill me. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. Well, the way you write with this hilarious voice very personal, like very open, talking to the reader at times, talking, you know, like interior monologue.

It's, the voice is so, is great. This is like one of my favorite parts. But also the clever way in which you structure the book and all of it. So how did you, like, like take me back from the beginning of this particular book. Or maybe, let's go back even further, because I know this is not your first book, so.

Catherine: No, no, that's fine. That's fine. So, I, yeah. I mean, I started, my first book was published in 2010 in Canada, 2012 in the U. S., and it was, would be called the Rom Com now, but it was, it was called Chiclet back then. And then I transitioned away from that into mystery thrillers, you know, so psychological suspense.

And I, uh, had been thinking about moving away from that, because. That's a dark place writing thrillers. It's dark, you know, and I wrote a couple of rom coms under a different pseudonym and I really had fun writing them and it was nice sort of accessing that and sort of so much easier to write in a way, not that those books aren't complex, but they're lighter for the writer.

I just rhymed there unintentionally. That was nice. And so I, I, I've been sort of kicking around an idea of trying to marry. the mystery thriller side of things with rom coms. And I had started working on a different project that just wasn't gelling. And I was in Italy with my husband two summers ago on a 10 day tour.

Not for my books, but just for fun. And I was talking, I have no idea why, about Miss Marple. And I was like, why does anybody invite her anywhere? Every time she goes, somebody dies. Like, why would you ever extend this invite? And then it just sort of popped into my head every time I go on vacation, someone dies.

And I was very excited because I was like, okay, that's a really good title, but I need a story that fits it. And so I had an idea that I'd had for years and years and years and had even pitched to an editor once before about a writer who had a long running series who was sick of that person. In the original iteration of the book, they were at a big book conference and a book expo, and the protagonist dies, and then all the mystery writers try and solve the mystery.

And actually, Jamie Hendrix wrote, had a book out last year that was a very similar concept. You know, it's, things are weird, right? Anyway, so I had that sitting in the, in my drawer of abandoned book ideas. And I thought if I tweaked it and put it into this, that the two could work. So that was the sort of starting.

premise from that and actually have like in my notes app on my phone notes with the title and her name is there and some key characters and key points are there from like August 2022. And then I started writing it when I got home. Yeah, the idea always was to make it funny and to really sort of lean into that.

And it developed over the course of putting together a book. Uh, the material that we took out to try and get a deal with my agent who was really just encouraging me to just lean into the voice, like, more, more, more, that was what she was always saying every time. She's great. More of this, more of this, more of this.

And eventually, really in the last round before we went out, I had the idea of including footnotes. Yeah, I was about to bring that up. And I think that that was what, like, really gelled the whole thing. Concept together was the addition of the footnotes. 

Zibby: So yeah, the footnotes are hilarious. I mean, I feel like that's all you even need to read are just all the footnotes that could be a novel.

Catherine: You might be a little confused, but yeah, I'm kidding. 

Zibby: I'm kidding. There's a middle grade novel called the umbrella maker son by Katrina Lino, who actually is the manager of my bookstore. And she does that for Middle grade. And she had so much pushback, she said, that the editor and everybody were like, kids don't understand footnotes.

Nobody likes to read footnotes. Please take them out. And she's like, no, that's what makes it kind of funny and interesting. So she really, really pushed. And I thought that was like the best part of her book. And I feel the same with yours because it's so original and it just adds another dimension where you're like engaging with the text in a different way.

Catherine: Yeah. 

Zibby: You have pushback. So obviously you're ages. 

Catherine: No, no. So I, I didn't in the sense that I, I actually wanted to include first. Put notes. an early draft of my first novel that got published, Spin, actually had footnotes in it. So something I've wanted to do for a really long time. So I did get pushback back, back then.

And I think one of the very first footnotes in the book is Eleanor's saying, I wonder if my editor's going to let me keep these. Yeah, I doubt it. Right. And, um, I was lucky enough to have several people interested in purchasing the book. And so I had meetings with those various editors and Catherine Richards, who I ended up, uh, Going with the first thing she said is, You're keeping the footnotes.

And I was like, okay. This is gonna work. Other people were like, maybe less footnotes? Nobody said no footnotes. I think the people who were not wholeheartedly excited about the footnotes, I just knew that they didn't fully get the book. So, and you know what, look, not everybody loves the footnotes. In the advanced reader copy, the digital advanced reader copy, if you had like an older Kindle, they didn't always work that well, but the actual official copy.

So if you're trying to decide listeners, you know what to read, the ebook is fine. Now there's, if you see reviews that say there's issues with the footnotes, there really isn't anymore, but it was, it was a fun thing to explore the audio book narrator. Oh yeah. How did, yeah. So Elizabeth Evans, who is amazing.

And has a whole fandom of her own. She and I had conversations about it, and, and she pitched a couple of different ways to do it, and we talked it through, and so there are more asides in the audiobook, which I think works. Like, you don't want to stop and be like, what note one, you know, and then read it like it's an academic text.

So they're integrated into the text in a different way, but I think that that's kind of fun. Like, I think it's cool that the audiobook experience is a bit different than, than reading the book itself, right? 

Zibby: Yeah. Oh, I want to go listen to it now. 

You know, I have friends who only listen to audiobooks because of the narrators.

Like, they don't even do it based on the authors anymore. Right. I didn't realize that was a thing. I guess that's what you meant by their own fandom, but. 

Catherine: Yeah, well, yeah, and I sort of realized that when, I mean, Julia Whelan, who I know and who's also an author, but she narrated, I met her years ago and then she ended up narrating a couple of and I realized it with her.

But she had that fandom. And then I wasn't familiar with Elizabeth's work, but I can see in the, the reviews and the things I get tagged on, it's exactly that. It's like, Oh my God, she's the narrator of my most favorite book of all time, which I think that's so cool. 

Zibby: Like, that's so cool. Yeah. That is so neat.

Oh my gosh. Well, the way here, I dog eared like so many passages. Let me, can I like read a little something? Yeah, of course. Of course. Oh, I love this whole, I'm not a pantser, I'm a plotter thing. So this is so funny. I mean, Yeah. For authors are asked this all the time for a listener. I mean, I'm sure everybody's on this podcast has heard this like a million times too.

Like, you know, when people refer to themselves as plotters and panthers or whatever, and you have like this, I mean, it's just so funny the point of view. So you were, let me just start in the middle of this page. Sorrento. If I were writing this scene, I'd say that a deathly silence enveloped us. But I'm not sure that's quite right.

I think there are at least two of us who are contemplating life instead. Our lives and how we're still here despite numerous attempts to push us out of the frame. Or maybe that's all of us, because it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Sheck drank Connor's champagne and therefore caught the sentence someone tried to meet at him.

This is probably not making sense to anybody, but whatever. It could have been any of us who took that glass and swallowed that poison and spent their last moments on earth suffocating and in pain while a bunch of people stood around and did nothing. But it's hard not to be grateful for the little things.

When you watch someone die in front of you. Oh my god, so good. Oh, and then the clues that you do, you have like whole pages of clues. That was so genius. I don't think I can write this book anymore. Were you ever feeling like, I don't think I can write this book anymore? 

Catherine: Oh, no, I think really I was just trying to put myself in, in, in part of the meta concept is that Eleanor is drafting what is supposed to be her next book.

So there's like the outline of her book in here. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Catherine: Which eventually gets used against her and right in the breaking the fourth wall one. Yeah Yeah, and so I was like if I was in the middle of writing a book and then it started coming true Like would I even be able to keep writing it and I think she was expressing that and that yeah The chapter you're referring to sort of two thirds of the way and I invite the reader to help solve the mystery so yeah, it's super fun.

Well, it was very fun writing it Which, I think, shows through in the end product, so, and people are responding to it that way, so it's good. People get it. 

Zibby: People get it, of course. 

Catherine: People get it, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it's not for everyone. No. But no book is for everyone, right? So. 

Zibby: Well, I know, but I think it's, It's for people who like to read.

Catherine: Yeah, I know. And there's like lots of fun inside stuff about publishing, which you know, I was saying to somebody else the other day that like, I had to be careful in the footnotes to not be me and to be Eleanor, because we've had different publishing experiences, and I'm not complaining about my publishing experience, but my first book was not a New York Times bestseller was a runaway success. So, you know, she's had a very different experience, but, but still has been in publishing, which I think is sort of a, uh, a phrase that authors understand, you know, like even when things are going well, it's still publishing. And, uh, just like anything, you know, when I was a lawyer, even if things were going well, it was still practicing law.

So there's always downsides to every job. And so it was fun to like universalize those for, for people, because I think people enjoy. getting that insider perspective. And then, you know, after I'd sold my book and written it, Yellowface came out. And I was like, Oh, yep and like, look how successful that was.

People really want to know about publishing, you know? And uh, so that's fun. It's fun doing that. It's fun lifting the curtain. I think people like getting a window into a world that gets romanticized in a lot of ways. I think in movies and TV, you know, you see somebody like writing all night and then suddenly they have a book, right?

And it's like, that's just not how that works at all. That would be nice. That would be nice. Wouldn't it though? Definitely. Definitely. And I think it's also. It's, oddly, I don't know if you've found this, Zibby, but like, because so many people have book ideas or feel like they do, that there's this weird thing where people, like, everyone kind of thinks they can do your job.

Yes. Right? And nobody, when I was a lawyer, if I'd said I was a lawyer, they're like, oh yeah, I'm going to be a lawyer in a couple of years when I retire, or if I had the time, I'd be a lawyer. You know? But when you tell people you write books they're like, oh yeah, I'm gonna write a book.

You know, it's like, like, or if I had 

Zibby: the time, I'd write books. That is the thing, there is no barrier to entry to writing a book. You just like, anybody, you can just do it. 

Catherine: Anybody can do it, that doesn't mean anybody can write a book that somebody else wants to read, right? That's true. 

Zibby: Yeah. Or a book like yours, which is so great.

The book that I had recently come out called Blank is sort of similar in that she decides to hand the book in blank about the, and it's a reflection on the publishing industry and how it's all about marketing that matters and it doesn't even matter what's inside of the book. 

Catherine: That's a good idea. 

Zibby: And she is also a former bestselling author and this is her next book.

But I, that's like when I've been going around, that's like what I've been talking about, like what is going on in publishing? What does it mean? How do you, how do you do your next book? How do you get over that pressure? So I don't know. So obviously this one sold at auction. You said that so nicely. You're like, I had a couple meetings and I'm like, I know what that means.

And it's so, I feel like that is when the buzz starts. Like if you get a book at auction, like it's already on, you know, it's already on sale. another track, not just because of the auction, but just the fact, you know what I mean? It's like, 

Catherine: no, a thousand percent. And like something that I had never experienced before.

Well, I never sold a book at auction before either, but was that there are book scouts out there who whole job is to scout things. And so right after we sold the book, we actually took it out in Hollywood to like, get it, try and sell the book. The rights and, and, you know, people already had the book, like, before my agent went out with it, people who he hadn't sent it to yet were like, no, we want to make an offer.

So that was like. 

Zibby: Oh, my gosh. 

Catherine: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was really crazy, going through that process, and, and then, and to see it come to fruition, too, in the sense that my publisher really did get behind the book, they said, the way they said they were going to, and did everything that they said they were going to and you know on like we've all been there you get marketing plans and then you're like oh that never happened and what was this and blah blah blah but like they've literally done everything they said they were going to and more and which has been a great experience for me because I've been in the business for a very long time and you know it's I don't like giving lessons about like what to do and I'm actually not one of those people who's like just stick to your dreams kids like because I think if it's no but I know people who are writers it makes them miserable and I'm like I don't think you should do anything that makes you miserable just because you know somebody on Twitter said that like it took me 17 years so you can stay here too you know I don't I don't think you should live your life like that if you don't want to but what I would say is that there's been a couple of times in my career you where I really felt like I was pushing myself as a writer and I was doing something new for me that I was very excited about and that almost Without exception, one exception, but almost without exception, has translated into some different level of success for me and my career.

And so, I think so many authors get told like, well just go find a big idea, you know, like, like there's a big idea drawer just sitting there, like, sure, I'll just open the big idea drawer and pull out the big idea and it's all fine. I think it's, you know, maybe something that's actionable is like, do go find the idea that excites you.

Yeah. Like, that really excites you. And if you can find that idea, and I feel like we all do have those ideas, we have the, the book we're afraid to write, we have the book that we feel like it's too hard for us to write, you know, but those are the ideas I think that we should, excuse me, pursue sort of, and not thinking about the market and all that sort of stuff either.

Because I think you never know, right? You write something and then the book comes out two or three years later. So you can't, you can't like. write to the market. You can't anticipate the market. All you, all you can do is just write the book that excites you the most. And the example I always give is Fifty Shades of Grey, which she was not sitting there going like, there's a niche in the market of a bubble, you know, like, no, she was writing fan fiction.

So I like fan fiction because she was obsessed. Yep. And it morphed into that. But I think, you know, whatever you can say about those books, and there's lots of negative things you can say about those books, but they tapped into something that people really were excited about, and, you know, you could see somebody more recently like Emily Henry, who was writing YA before, right, and then, you know, I doubt very highly that her editor came to her and was like, why do you write an adult contemporary romance?

No, you know, she had an idea for a book that, you know, Probably wouldn't leave her alone. And maybe her agent even said, shifting into a different category, not a good idea. You know, like, right. There's always these, these rules and in life, but in publishing about stay in your lane. And once you've established your brand and all that sort of stuff.

And so I think, you know, I think when you see people do that, it often does create success, but It means sort of shutting out all the, the noise of whatever people want you to do next and doing what excites you the most. 

Zibby: Yep. 

Catherine: And that can be hard to do. 

Zibby: Yes. Very true. And great advice. Really awesome. When you mentioned the film stuff that was going on, so what is the plan there?

Catherine: Uh, yeah, so I sold the TV rights to Fox and I am writing the pilot. 

Zibby: Oh! 

Catherine: Yeah, so I've been doing that this year, so that's been another adjI mean, I've written other pilots, but I've never adapted my own work before. So that's been a really fun experience and it's different too because TV is different medium and film is a different medium than books and I always kind of laugh when say like the Bridgerton fandom are like, well, they changed this and they did that and it's like, yeah, because that's how you make an eight hour TV show, you know, like you can't just take that book and just do it exactly like it was on the page.

First of all, you already have the book. So why do you need that? And uh, you know, that's just the way it is. And so there are things about the main character that change over the course of, over the course of writing the pilot. So it's, in my mind now, there's like TV Eleanor, and then there's book Eleanor, and they're not necessarily the same person.

So, so that's been an interesting challenge, but keeping that sort of core voice of it, and, and yeah, that was an interesting process, too, in the sense of I really very much wanted to write, have that experience to write the pilot. I've been working towards that, and they were great enough. To let me do it.

So, and, uh, we'll see what happens. You know, I'm fond of saying that the only business less certain than the book business is the TV and film industry. So, you know, I'm super grateful for whatever has happened already and what might happen in the future, but who knows? You know, it's all, it's all up in the air and, and that industry is very in flux right now.

They're still struggling to find their way out out of the strike. 

Zibby: And are you working at the same time on another book? 

Catherine: Yeah, so this is a three book series that I sold. 

Zibby: So it says in the book about the next books. 

Catherine: Yeah, and that is, that is true. Oh my God, you're so funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've already written book two.

Okay. It's called No One Was Supposed to Die at this Wedding. It is set up in the epilogue of this book and it is set in Catalina Island off of Los Angeles. 

Zibby: Yep. 

Catherine: And three months later, Eleanor's first book is called When in Rome, and now they've made the movie of When in Rome. Yep. And two of the cast members who play Cecilia Crane, who is The stand in for Eleanor in the book and Connor Smith have fallen in love and are getting married.

And so the whole cast is going to Catalina Island at the end of filming to have their wedding. But things go badly, obviously. And, um, so, yeah, so it's, it's, the meta publishing stuff is still there but it's also, like, behind the scenes in the sort of film and TV world. And it was fun to play around because, like, now there are two Connor Smiths.

Walking around, right? Who have different things. 

Zibby: Oh, my gosh. 

Catherine: So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'm actually, have started writing book three, which I'll, I'll, I'll leave the details about book three out, not to confuse people, but yeah, so, Noah, when was he supposed to die at this wedding? Should be coming out sometime next year.

I'll find out soon when the pub date is, so. So fun. Yeah. I feel 

Zibby: like, you know, it's just, are you just elated by the whole thing? 

Catherine: Yeah, it's been really nice. Somebody said, so my, the book got reviewed in the New York Times, which like, 

Zibby: Amazing. 

Catherine: Amazing. I cried on the internet. And, you know, it was interesting when I, when it happened, I like texted some of my, my friends, including Alyssa Friedland, who you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Alyssa like FaceTimed me and we started crying on the phone together. Aww. Which was so, like, it was just a really nice moment. And, uh, it was funny too, because she, Had sweatshirts for her 40th birthday. I was actually wearing her sweatshirt when she called me. So weird little moment of synchronicity.

And, um, her new book's coming out in a couple of weeks. It's called, uh, Jackpot Summer. It's really, really fun. You should, you should pick it up. And then I was talking to another friend of mine, Liz Fenton, who's also an author, Lisa, and I was like, Oh, you know, like, do I have to go like cry on the internet?

And I was joking. I was like, I'm not actually going to cry on the internet. But yes, I'm going to make a video because my book was reviewed in the New York Times, like, and then I did start crying in the video.

What is happening? And so then you have that moment afterwards, like, "Am I going to post this?" Because it wasn't live. So I'm like, am I really going to post this? Like, for real? And I'm like, oh, forget it. Just don't overthink it. Post and it is my post that has had the most interactions on TikTok, on Instagram.

And I think people sort of do respond to that real emotion that I was having in the moment. And yeah, it made the USA Today bestseller list. And it was the number one book in Canada. And so Yeah, just like lots of really great things have been happening for the book. And yeah, it's, it's a weird place. It's like a good place to be, but it's a weird place to be also in the sense of you sort of hope for these things and you have these like lists of like, I want this to happen.

And then most of them have happened, you know, for the book, which is incredible. So yeah, it's good. It's a good time. It's still publishing. I still have to put my butt in the chair and write book three, and I'm about to get my copy edits. But I'm, I'm actually glad for that. It's been nice to have a couple of weeks where I was able to focus on this and everything that's happening.

And then I will get back into my copy edits, which is, you know, I don't know about you, but copy edits are where I always feel like I'm the worst writer, because I still don't know where commas go. I know. And like, you know. I mean, thank God for copy, uh, copy writers. They're incredible. And then, yeah, sort of hunker down and spend this, the last second half of the year writing, writing book three.

Zibby: So, yeah. I'm really happy for you. It really deserves all that success. It's so clever and original and, you know, readers crave that. So it's awesome. Yeah. 

Catherine: Thank you so much. 

Zibby: Enjoy it. Have fun. Don't stress. 

Catherine: Easy to say and hard to do. 

Zibby: I think, I think people assume like, oh, you get on some list and whatever and that like you're done, you know what I mean?

But it's not at all done. And it's like, well, am I going to stay on that list? And now what? And how do I make sure the next one's really great? And right, there's still. 

Catherine: I think with a series too, like, you know, I've always written standalones in the past. And the pro of a standalone is that you just re you create a whole new world each time.

And so, and I might've had fans of my work, but they're not fans of certain characters or certain situations and want certain things to happen or not happen and and so it's um going into that and being like you want people to enjoy this book as much as they enjoyed the last book because in a series that excuse me that is what you're looking for.

You're not looking for a different experience. You're looking for the same as good, you know, I don't, I dread the, well, this wasn't as good as the first book, you know, reviews because I am stupid enough to read my reviews. So yeah, I do, I don't have the impulse control, but if you read all of them, they don't hurt anymore.

Zibby: Well, that's good. 

Catherine: Yeah. I mean, it would have hurt if I had gotten slammed in the New York times.

Zibby: Sometimes there was one review that was so bad. I literally like emailed the author and I'm like, I don't even know. You can't even be upset about this. It's so mean. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not even like. 

Catherine: That in a publication that I will mention for this book. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that comes with the territory.

When I talk to people about, you know, writing and publishing is that the more success you have, the more people have to say about your work. Right. And so You know, Dan Brown, we're not going to feel sorry for Dan Brown, but Dan Brown probably has like 10, 000 one star reviews minimum on, you know, his big book, right?

So you can't take that stuff personally. They're not writing the reviews for you. Even the trade reviews, they're not thinking about you, the author, when they write it, right? 

Zibby: No, no. 

Catherine: They're coming in with their own agenda, buys, whatever. biases. And I also think that you can actually write a terrible review about anything or anyone.

It's just a question of tone. Like I could write a very mean review about Mother Teresa if I wanted to, you know, like, because it's, it's really just a question of tone and attitude. And, and, and so, and I think it's important to remember, like, there are lots of books that people love that I really hate it.

And I'm not going to go talk about that on the internet because, you know, I'm an author, and I don't, I think it's like just author etiquette not to do that, but people are entitled to their opinions. And, and I do also think you can learn things from negative reviews. There is a consistent point of view in the negative reviews.

I have, in certain books, I have learned things. I've been like, okay, I get that. Like, valid, that's a valid critique. And then in the next book, like, if I'm doing something similar, I'm not going to do X, Y, or Z again. There will be footnotes in the second book. If, you know, some people just don't like the footnotes, no worries.

It's part of the shtick. But I, I do think when people take the time to actually write something, I mean, the reviews that drive you nuts are the, like, I mean, my favorite all time one star review on Amazon was I didn't order this. You know, it's like,

Okay. Yeah. Return it. Yeah. I know your book was in first reads, right? I had a book in first reads back at the beginning of the program. And that's an intense experience. Like 128, 000 people downloaded that book for free in one month. And so you're getting people wouldn't normally read you read your stuff.

And that book was about an affair. And but half my one star reviews are, I don't like books about an affair. About affairs. I'm like, well, what'd you read the book for? It's called Hidden. Like, the jacket copy literally says, when Jeff Manning dies, there are two women left devastated by his death. His wife and a co worker.

Like, come on! 

Zibby: Yeah. Buyer beware. 

Catherine: Yes, yes. Or have you ever gotten reviews for somebody else's book? 

Zibby: No. You got that? 

Catherine: That's really funny. There was another book called Hidden that came out around the same time as mine, also by Amazon Publishing, oddly, but it was like a paranormal romance or something. So every once in a while I'd read a review and I'm like, Mmm, that is not about my book, but thank you for the five stars.

Zibby: And then it's so crazy how much weight is given to some of the overall number. I mean, it's so crazy. It's all just crazy. You know? 

Catherine: Yeah. There's lots of, there's lots of things for people to stress about. I mean, I, I saw somebody on threads, like flipping out because their book that I think was nonfiction published by a small press, you know, hadn't made big numbers and I'm like, well, who told you that book was going to make big numbers in the first place?

Like, you know, a lot of that is just setting up expectations. We come into a business from whatever background we have and there is no, I always thought, and there are a couple of publishers that do this now, but I always thought that like an author one on one school would be a good idea because there's so much lingo and there's, there's, you know, what's the on sale date?

What's the in store date? What's this date? When am I supposed to know this? When am I supposed to know that? And to, to have that sort of like A to Z. 

Zibby: Yep. 

Catherine: You know, this is when this normally happens, this is when this normally happens, here's what you can do. And, you know, at the end of the day, if, if your publisher doesn't get behind a book and invest in it, it's very unlikely that your book's gonna, you blow up, you know, it happens every once in a while for random reasons like right now on TikTok or something, you know, but in general, uh, a lot of that is out of your control.

But as an author, you see people doing things or it feels like, well, if I just did this one thing, if I just did that other thing, then maybe this would happen to me too. Um, and that's, that's really hard. And I think a lot of people really get stuck on their first book, trying to make it a success when they really should just be writing the next one, you know, because it's not, it's not that there, it hasn't happened that some books have blown up years after they've come out.

But again, that's very rare. And it's, I think, very rarely something that the author could do. So I think part of that is just like learning over time, what it is that you can do and what you can invest in the success of your book, and then what It's just completely out of your control, you know, like, you just, you can't replicate it.

And then even things that work sometimes, they stop working. 

Zibby: Yep. 

Catherine: So, and I mean, I've been here, like, when I, when I first published it was Goodreads and Twitter. And Twitter was like in the nascent book Twitter. And then there's Instagram, and now there's TikTok, and now there's Threads, and every time there's a new platform, I'm like, no!

Zibby: I know, actually, when you were talking about Threads, I was like, I was thinking to myself, oh god, I'm really not on Threads, I, I don't even know what's going on over there, like, I'm just gonna

Catherine: No, you do an app, you don't also need to be on Threads, don't worry about it. 

Zibby: No, but as you said, there's always something else.

I mean, there's always another community, and things are constantly evolving, and that's the You know, if you think otherwise. Like, there will be another new platform in the next five years that we will all be on. 

Catherine: 100%. 100%. 100%. Yeah. 

Zibby: So I'll brace myself for that. Yeah. 

Catherine: Exactly. 

Zibby: Yeah. Well, Catherine, this is so fun.

Your book was great. I'm so happy it's, you know, found the audience that it totally deserves and all of that. And you know, this is, it's great when a success does happen for a good book. It's just, you know, I know we keep joking it's publishing, but it's nice to know that good books do find their audiences and it doesn't necessarily have to be like the biggest book club picker.

Do you know what I mean? It's like. 

Catherine: Yeah, no, no. And you know what? That was something that my publisher reassured me about like early on, which I really appreciated. Um, because I had been in other publishing situations where it was basically if you didn't get one of the big five gets, then they weren't going to do anything to promote your book, which is kind of devastating because you know about those gets months and months and months and months in advance and you're like, oh, so my book's going to die.

Okay. You know, and you know, the publishing director, I met her in New York last summer and, and she was really, really, it was really great actually. She was like, we still have a plan if those things don't happen. So you don't need to worry about that. Like, we will still do everything we said we were going to do for the book if you don't get Reese.

If you don't get this, you know? And in the end, I didn't, I didn't get Book of the Month. I didn't get Reese. I didn't get GMA. I didn't get those things and the book, you know, is still succeeding, which shows not that those things aren't amazing and I wouldn't be incredibly happy to have any one of those things, but it, it shows that there, there are still things that publishers can do.

There are still ways to, to get books out there. Without that, which is reassuring because I think there's been a lot of feeling in the author community in particular that like if you just say get one of those things it was sort of game over for that book, you know so it's nice to know that's not the case.

Zibby: I know we're we're almost out of time but if you had to I mean, what did your publisher do that you think that had the biggest impact? 

Catherine: I mean, so much of it is signaling, I think, so it was a lead title for them and so that signaling happens early on, starting in sales, internal sales conferences, when they're pitching the book to Indies, you know what, I did get Indie Next and they did a big push and campaign for that.

And we could see the result of that. It's selling really well in Indies and I think that's what helped put it on the, USA Today list and, and they're running ads for the book. I mean, advertising works, you know, people need to see something over and over again. They did an amazing influencer campaign where they put together not just the book, but they sent them pasta and these beautiful scarves and luggage tags and, and, and so that really, you know, I think that's sort of viral.

Social media marketing worked in this instance, but always what's the most important because you can do all those things, but if the book is not in bookstores, then, you know, it doesn't matter really, uh, to a large extent. So, you know, I think the sales team did an amazing job getting the book out there.

In most Barnes and Nobles, and in, you know, tons and tons and tons of independent and smaller chains. So, you know, like, all power to them is, is not just sending out a bunch of ARCs, but having, like, a strategic. 

Zibby: Yep. 

Catherine: Way of, of going about it, but every book is different too. You know, what works for one book is, is not going to work for another, you know, part of why I was excited to work with this publishing team is that it's the same team that does El Caso Mano's books.

And so they know that market and they know that audience and they know how to reach them. 

Zibby: And that's minotaur. 

Catherine: I was trying to look over here. Yeah, it's minotaur. Yeah. So it's the Finley Donovan series. And so, you know, it was, it was nice to have that reassurance of they've been in that category and they they know how to reach that, that reader. And they clearly do, which is great. And then the, the packaging, you know, I always say like the, the, the title sells the book, which I do think is 50 percent true in this case, but the covers sell books. And I think they did an amazing job on this cover and, and you know, if you, I don't think you, I don't know if you have the hard cover, but even the inside of the hard cover is like incredible end papers.

I love that. It's, um, like earlier designs of the cover and it's notes from Eleanor to her editor and to the cover designer and stuff. So they, they really like thought through the book in a, in a really deep way from beginning to end. You know, starting with how they introduced it in house, the market, the audio marketing team, like every, every part of the team.

I heard from every part of the team, which I, has never happened to me before. You know, so I just felt like the whole house was behind making the book a success, which was great. 

Zibby: Amazing. Thank you for that. Okay. Congratulations. Awesome. 

Catherine: Thank you. 

Zibby: And I hope to meet you in person sometime. 

Catherine: Okay. See you soon.

Zibby: Okay. Bye.