Bestselling author Alice Hoffman joins Zibby to discuss WHEN WE FLEW AWAY, a stunning, lyrical, heartwrenching children’s book exploring the little-known details of Anne Frank’s life before she went into hiding. Alice shares how she combined meticulous historical research with imagined thoughts to fill in the gaps in Anne’s relationships, particularly focusing on themes of sisterhood and the mother-daughter dynamic. Alice also reflects on the enduring hope and resilience Anne Frank represented, even during dark times, and stresses the importance of remembering her story amid rising antisemitism. Finally, she shares the emotional experience of visiting Anne’s house and school, the impact of fairy-tale storytelling, and her creative process.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Alice. Thanks so much for coming back on Mom's No Time to Read Book.

So excited to discuss When We Flew Away, a novel of Anne Frank before The Diary. Oh my gosh, so moving, so good. I really love this. I learned so many things I didn't know about Anne Frank and her family. Really amazing. Congrats. What, what, what inspired this book? 

Alice: Thank you so much, Zibby. It's so nice to see you again.

It's been a while. You know, really, I, Anne Frank was a huge inspiration for me to become a writer and has been since the time I'm 12, but really what happened was Scholastic came to me and it was their idea to do a book before The Diary because their feeling was that Anne was being forgotten and that not that many people were reading about her, not as many people were reading The Diary, which I think was true, and so that the goal we had together was that After somebody finished reading this book, whether they were a child or an adult, they would want to then go and read the diary.

Zibby: Hmm. Interesting. And gosh, so then when, how much of this was fictionalized, how much did you have to do research? I mean, obviously a lot of it must've been true, all of the, you know, backstory with the U. S. and all that. What was your approach? Yeah. 

Alice: Well, all of the facts, I mean, this is like when you write a historical novel, you're kind of writing a mystery because you have the facts and you want all the facts to be right on a hundred percent.

You don't want to make up anything that's actually factual, but you can't really know what conversations people had or what their inner thoughts were, what their real relationships were with certain people. And this, there's a lot about sisterhood about mothers and daughters. So that, I think, Conversations and thoughts, you know, I had to invent some of them so you know that is kind of what I've done before when writing historical novels, so I just tried to stay as true to the story as possible.

And the other thing that was really difficult that I didn't imagine when I quickly said yes without thinking was that, you know, and voices is like I feel is the best first. Person narration in literature. And so I didn't feel like I could write a first person story. So to figure out a way to get inside of her while, you know, me also maintaining a certain distance from her.

Zibby: Interesting. Wow. The events of the days before and all of the hopes and dreams. And as you said, the, the sibling relationships and mother daughter relationships, how did you I know we have learned, all of us, so much from reading the diary, and I feel like I know her, and I know her family, and all of that.

But even things like how strict her mom was, or why her mom was strict, or, so some of the motivations, not strict, but more, you know, really wanting her to succeed, some of the motivations, which I feel like you laid out really clearly in the book, did you not? I mean, I know these are silly questions, but 

Alice: no, no, that was really important.

That's exactly what was important to me in writing it because, you know, yes, I did research and I worked a lot with the Anne Frank house and the historians there were great and extremely helpful, but things like, you know, the emotional connections between people, I could only guess that from what other people said.

And from writings, from Anne's writings and from what other people said. And so what I gathered and what people seem to believe is that, you know, her sister was kind of the perfect, the perfect girl. You know, she was beautiful and she was smart and she, you know, stuck by the rules and she did as she was told.

And Anne was more difficult and had more of, kind of like more difficulties with her mother who wanted her to behave. And that wasn't who Anne was. She was creative and she was bossy. And she was a lot of things that made me love her even more as I was researching her. 

Zibby: Wow. It's almost, I started wondering a little bit, like, I wonder if Anne actually had ADHD. Or sensing, you know, it's possible. 

Alice: You know, you just never know about historical figures, but one of the things that happened to me is when I read it for the first time when I was 12, really felt what you had said before was that I knew her. I think that happens with really great books is that it's not just that you feel like, you know, the other person, but you also feel like somehow she knows you having such similar feelings and thoughts.

And yes, it's, it's, So I felt about the diary and I felt this connection and it made me feel like I could be a writer, which is something that I never imagined before. 

Zibby: So do you remember like where you were when you read the book the first time? 

Alice: I don't remember where I was, but I'm sure I was at home, you know, in my mother's house.

And I believe that I bought it at a book fair, a scholastic book fair. And I just, You know, I didn't know very much about history. I didn't know very much about World War II, even though my father had served in World War II. He never spoke about it. It seemed like it was very far away, but it really wasn't from the time that I read it to the ending of World War II and from the Holocaust.

So, it was just a huge entree into kind of another person's life. And I think that's the thing about reading, is that it gives you such compassion for other people. I think that's what scares people when they want to ban books is that when you're a reader, you just have more compassion and you, you can imagine what it's like to live somebody else's life.

Zibby: Yep. And when you told the story, she was younger than I remembered her. Like, I feel like I remember 12. 13. And yet she, she, and I'm thinking like, I have a son now who's nine and a daughter who's 11. And I'm just like, Oh my gosh, the ages seem different. Theoretically, it's different. 

Alice: Well, this is before. So it starts when she's about nine years old.

Yeah. Really? That is so crazy. Young and one of the things when I, when I first started writing the book, my niece now is 14, but when I first started, she was at 11 and a half and she lived in Austria and she'd never heard of Anne Frank and I thought, Oh, so like I'm writing this book for you, you know, and she's like, I don't think study that until later, but I just thought like, how could she not know?

You know, like we can't let and disappear and the further we get from the Holocaust, the fewer people, the fewer survivors there are, the easier it is to forget that story. And when you go to the Anne Frank house, I'm sure you've been there. It's just, it's just an incredible experience. And I think it's, you know, one of them, I think it is the number one place, the visitors place for people who are coming from outside of the Netherlands.

And it's just, Such an experience and such an emotional experience to go there and I remember going there, you know, years and years and years ago, it's changed and it's become more of a museum was at their house and it's just fascinating place to go. I really think it also keeps the memory alive about what can happen so easily and so quickly. 

Zibby: And just how like tight quarters it really was for so many people. I mean, I've been twice. I went once in high school and then again, very recently, and brought my own kids back, which was really moving. And I was, I starred as Anne Frank in The Diary of Anne Frank in my camp play, I'll have you know. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. It was my shining moment.

I was very proud to be cast, but I really felt, and I always have felt, like, so much in common with, like, the young girl writing her feelings down and. All of that, like, I mean, I know all of us writers probably feel the same thing. Like, this could easily be us, and what it must have been, and even her first crush, and, you know, just all of it.

And I think in your book, too, learning about what's coming, what came before and just the carefree nature and how fast it can all change, which is something that I feel like we're all reeling from right now. Just are, what, what, where are we in the history of what's happening now? Are we at, the beginning. 

Alice: Really know to reach the end of it.

You know, it's because one of the, the, the most emotional experiences for me was when I went to Amsterdam, I went to her, the family's apartment before they moved into the annex or the attic. And now it's a place where they let writers stay writers who can't write in their own countries. And they asked me if I wanted to stay, but I felt too emotional to stay there and spending a few hours there because it just felt like home.

You know, it's like someone's home and the neighborhood is a really nice neighborhood and the bookstore where she bought the diary still exists and their kids running all over and you kind of are transported to that time where everything seemed normal before the Nazis arrived. And it was a very emotional experience to be there.

And then to go to her school. I also went to her school. Wow. She went to a Montessori school and, you know, the same tree was, was in the yard. Her desk was still there. And, And, and it just makes you feel closer to it. 

Zibby: Mm hmm. Well, I feel like that's the, the magic of telling one story is so much more powerful than thinking like, oh, millions of Jews were killed.

It's like you get yourself into this and you're like, oh, like this is really it. This is what was lost. Times. 

Alice: You know. Right. You are so right, Sibby, because it makes it so personal, and I met with a researcher when I was there who, who researched diaries and, and also hidden, hidden people. There were so many people who were hidden, so many people who wrote diaries, and it wasn't, you know, just one person, but somehow knowing this one person so well makes you kind of feel for everybody who was in that, in that circumstance.

Zibby: Yeah. Oh my gosh. What do you feel like in, after this whole deep dive? What do you feel that you didn't feel before either about Ann or about resilience or You know times in history or what we should not forget or any of that Like where do you feel like you are now versus before you started the project?

Alice: Well, I feel like, you know, the idea of somebody who could still have hope and faith and still think that people are good, still be so positive, still be a dreamer, I mean, part of that, it was her age. And that's kind of how, when we're young, we can feel those things. And it's kind of good to remember those things as we get older, because it's so easy to become cynical and, and to feel like there is no hope.

And so I think that was, that's a, that was a big part of it for me. 

Zibby: I was so honestly taken aback when you said, not take, I mean, just so surprised when you said that Scholastic was worried that people were forgetting the diary. I almost like didn't even have anything to say. I was like, what? Is that even possible?

Like is this not in the common parlance? Like in my community, I feel like it is, you know, but in the larger scale, like is it, has it, Really been fading and how sad is that? I mean, that is devastating to me. 

Alice: Yeah, I think it's just really important to remember her and to remember everything that happened.

So that was one of the reasons I, you know, immediately wanted to write the book. But I also wanted to write it and I didn't even think about it or think about all the work or think about anything. I just felt like this is the book that my grandmother would have wanted me to write. And I just feel like if I don't write anything else, then I did this for her because I just think it would have really mattered for her to have that story out there.

So.. 

Zibby: What was your family story? 

Alice: My, my family were Russian and you know, my grandmother told me, told me about her life, but it just sounded like a fairytale. I couldn't believe that how she had lived, you know, that, you know, being afraid of wolves in the morning when she had to go down to the river to get water.

And I just feel like, you know, her story is just kind of an immigrant story. And I just think this is something she would have wanted me to do. 

Zibby: It's really meaningful and really good too. I mean, in terms of writing and creating narrative and tension and just all the craft, crafty stuff, what are some tools of the trade that you feel like you rely on a lot or that you make sure to do when you're writing?

I mean, you're such an accomplished author. Like what is it, what is it you do to get your, is it the outlining? Is it character development? Like what, what is the secret sauce? 

Alice: You know, to be honest, I blocked it all out afterwards, kind of like childbirth, you know, like if you remembered what it was like, you'd never do it again.

It's that feeling. I do make a lot of outlines. I do a lot of different drafts. I worked with a great editors and that was really helpful. But I realized when I was writing this particular story that for me, it was so horrible and so upsetting that the only way I could really tell it was to tell it as if it were a fairy tale.

Because I always felt growing up that fairy tales allow you to see into the darkness and the light both in a way that realistic stories don't. And so I felt like I had to do both. Give the facts, tell what really happened, but also tell it as if it were a fairy tale. So that. We would understand like two sisters who were lost in the woods and that that would resonate for people as they were reading it.

And I, you know, for younger, I do feel like it's for everybody, like every age, but for younger readers, I didn't want to put so much history in that it would turn them off. So I realized a way where I could say everything that was happening in kind of a condensed form so that it wouldn't stop them from reading the story as a story.

Zibby: I was sort of surprised when Anne's dad was talking about how safe he felt in the Netherlands and that when things started to happen, how he said, oh no, well, people will know that this is wrong. This is against the rules. And someone will come in and tell Germany they can't do this. Like this is not what they're supposed to do.

So it couldn't possibly get worse. And it's just that it's like suspension of disbelief or something that you feel like people will do the right thing. And what if they don't? 

Alice: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I know. He really did believe people would do the right thing. And you know, one of the things, this is just like a quirk of like circumstance, but you know, I, I, I rent this little tiny place to write in and I'm there right now.

And it turned out that the person who owned the house was from the Strauss family. And Otto was very friendly with that family and introduced me to the woman who ran the historical family archives, who was very helpful to me also. That just seemed like another reason like I'm supposed to do this because what are the odds that Happening pretty slim, so that was really lucky.

Zibby: Oh my gosh. And what other projects are you working on, if anything, in the midst of all of this? Do you have more adult things coming or what, what's your, what's on your dance card? 

Alice: I do. I'm working on a novel. I tend not to talk exactly about novels because, you know, you never know. That's going to be the novel, as you know, until you're at the end.

I mean, maybe you're going to throw it out. I, last year, all last year, I was in a master's program at the Divinity School at Harvard. So I relearned how to write a paper and do a lot of reading. So I'm recovering from that. 

Zibby: Why, why, why did you do that? 

Alice: Well, you know, it turned out to be interesting in terms of the Anne Frank book, but I, you know, I write a lot about religion and philosophy and history, and it just seemed like a good place for me to take a minute and breathe and, and do some research.

And from that, you know, I kind of found a novel that I'm working on. So, so. That was a good move for me. 

Zibby: That was all worth it. 

Alice: And, you know, there's the possibility of practical magic being a move, uh, there being a practical magic, too. So that's very exciting. And I'm just writing. 

Zibby: Amazing. And what types of things do you want Are you reading and what did, did you read any other books about Anne Frank as you were doing your research that you hadn't read before or about that period of time or other historical novels or anything that you're like, people should read this too that maybe they missed or anything like that?

Alice: I did mostly research historical research. I stayed away from novels. I tell you the truth. I stay away from novels when I'm writing a novel because I don't want to be influenced in any way. And so I tend to do more research. In my reading, you know, unfortunately, I don't know if you find this, but I find that the more you write, the less you read.

And so I'm really looking forward to reading Elizabeth Strath's new book. That's what I'm excited about, but I'm mostly writing right now and, and reading historical information. 

Zibby: What do you think about the situation today, not in terms of political things, but in terms of the fear that, that many Jewish people are feeling in response to last year's attacks and the rise in antisemitism now versus, you know, when we look back and see how it was building there and.

You know, now it's so well documented how it all built and the laws that were changing and all that. Like, I don't know. How do you feel about today? 

Alice: Well, you know, it's interesting. I feel that it was a really good time to write about Anne Frank, that I didn't expect all of these things to be happening, you know, last year and this year, but that in reading about her and writing about her.

It was really helpful for me to understand that this is a very old situation, a very ancient situation, and something that, you know, people have to deal with and have dealt with continuously. And I don't know, people, people can be, people can be really disappointing in a lot of ways. And I think in writing about Anne, I kind of, it kind of helped me to renew my faith that in the end, you that there would be good people.

Zibby: That's great. Do you have any advice for aspiring authors, ? 

Alice: Well, I think the best advice I don't, I, is to, that you have to write, like nothing can happen if you don't write. And even if you write a novel and it, and you realize it's not the right novel, uh, you know, the more you write, the better you get, I think.

And also, you know, I really. I used to do this. I don't do it as much. I'm reminding myself. I think it's good to write and not read it for a while because it's so easy to be disappointed or to think it's terrible and to be ready to throw it away. And I think it's also good to have readers who are supportive at first.

You know, so that you want to keep going. Because there's so many people who want to write, but they never exactly do it, or they never exactly finish. And it is kind of daunting, and it's a lot of work, and, you know, the other thing is that I think sometimes people don't know is that so many writers rewrite, I mean, 20, 30 times a manuscript.

So it doesn't happen all at once. 

Zibby: Very true. Good, good advice. Definitely might need that. I just finished my latest novel and I literally wrote two, started two other ones and I had a 60 page outline and I was like, no, I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to do this other thing over here. 

Alice: Maybe, maybe you'll use that material for something else at some point, or maybe it will come back in some way.

Zibby: Oh yeah. I did not delete it. I put it in like a separate folder. I'm like, even if I could use a paragraph, it'll be good. 

Alice: No, never delete. 

Zibby: Never delete. Oh my goodness. Okay. And do you keep a diary? Just wondering. Do you ever keep a diary? 

Alice: No. Uh uh. No, I've never kept a diary. 

Zibby: Okay. 

Alice: No, I'm not that. I'm not that interested in my own real life.

Zibby: The diary of the Diary of Alice Hoffman. Not to be. Okay. 

Alice: Not? Not yet. 

Zibby: Not yet. Okay. Well, Alice, thank you so much. Thank you for writing this book. Even though Scholastic came to you and it wasn't like some grand vision, I think it's amazing that you said yes right away, delved deep into it, used your skill to bring this really special girl back to life and it's really important and really amazing. So thank you. 

Alice: Thank you, Zibby. And I have to say, I was so honored to be asked to do it. I never thought that would happen to me. So I really appreciate it. It's great talking to you. 

Zibby: You too. Thanks so much. Have a good day. Okay. Bye bye.

Alice: Bye.