OPRAH’S BOOK CLUB PICK! #1 New York Times bestselling author Wally Lamb returns to the podcast to discuss THE RIVER IS WAITING, an epic, heart-wrenching tale of a young father who, after an unbearable tragedy, reckons with the possibility of atonement for the unforgivable. Wally shares the haunting inspiration behind the story—a blend of the Mexican legend of La Llorona and the heartbreaking reality of backover accidents—and how his own experiences with addiction, parenting, and teaching writing to incarcerated women shaped the emotional core of the book. Together, they explore themes of grief, resilience, self-forgiveness, and redemption. Wally also shares a sneak peek of his next novel and then offers writing advice: the magic is in revision.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Wally. Thank you so much for coming back on my show to talk about The River Is Waiting. Congratulations. 

Wally: Happy to be here Zibby, uh, and thank you very much.

Zibby: This book deals with such dark, heavy topics and yet there is a hopeful message of resilience all the way through. Can you talk a little bit about where this idea came from and what, what it's really about? 

Wally: Yeah, sure. Um, well, you know, I never know wh when it's time for me to start a new book. I never know what it's gonna be about.

I don't, I, you know, I don't, I'm not moving toward a, a certain character or a certain ending or anything like that. Uh, but what I do, and this was something that taught, that was taught to me by a long time, uh, teacher, writing teacher, and she said, you're never gonna tell an interest. Uh, you know, like, you're never gonna tell an original story, she said, so go back to the ancient myths, because they're the stories that have lasted because people need them to be told and retold.

So I have done that ever since. And so I was, uh, when I was sort of spinning my wheels and trying to figure out what exactly I was gonna take on, I started reading about, uh, it's a, it's a myth about, it's called uh, LA Laona. Uh, and she is the whaling woman in, uh, Mexican mythology. And she, um, she finds out her husband is unfaithful. And in response, she drowns her children in anger. And, uh, and then she is a ghost that haunts, you know, others, uh, by the, by rivers, uh, rivers and, and, and, and bodies of water. So, I don't know. That's where I started and couldn't, you know, I, I kept being interested in that, but it wasn't getting any traction.

And then one day in the newspaper, I, I found a little article on one of the you know, not on page one, but it was, uh, about, it was about these terrible accidents called, um, back overs where usually a parent, somebody, somebody, a loved one who has a little kid, uh, will back not realize that the kid is in, not in the car, but back and back in the driveway or whatever.

And, uh, and we'll roll over them. And in nine out of 10 instances, the child survives. But there is that one terrible example of a, of a child who does not survive. So I was in horror when I read about that. And at the time we had a uh, we had a, our first grandchild was three years old, and we had just welcomed an infant.

His, his, uh, baby sister and I have a, I have a car with a backup camera and my son down in New Orleans, Jared, uh, he and his wife did not at the time have a backup camera, and I was so scared and I think fear probably motivates me more than anything. And, and so I called them up and I said, look, um uh, Jared, if you fly up here to Connecticut, uh, from Louisiana, I will give you my car with the backup camera and I'll, I'll get another car and, you know, you'll so fly up and then you can drive it back.

And he did that. And I went out and got, got the exact same car, you know, that car was only about six months old. And, but I, you know, I, and the dealership was like, you want the same color? You want, you know, they couldn't quite get it. But yeah, that it started with those two things, really. The, um, you know, the Wailing woman and of course in the, in the story that that came about, you know, almost seven years later, you know, there is a woman who cries for her children, for her child specifically, and, uh, and there is water, you know, that, that figures into it.

And then there's that terrible accident that occurs. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. I love that. I love that you didn't like just tell your son, Jared, like, I'm gonna just buy you a car. You're like, you actually have to fly here and drive my old car so that I can get myself a new car. 

Wally: Right. That's right. Maybe a little bit of, uh, selfishness.

There I was. 

Zibby: No, not at all. You're like, you're teaching your kids to work for it. I love it. You know? 

Wally: Yeah, right, right. 

Zibby: I like it. Well, I didn't know it had a name back overs. It's, you know, as a parent, it's. Ab Oh, terrifying. 

Wally: Horrifying. 

Zibby: Just so just the thought of it. So that's, that's great that you did that for him.

But, you know, reading about it in the, the way that an accident and one moment, and the ways that you get to some of the worst moments of your life and how you feel, you can put yourself in those moments, like you're setting yourself up for some bad things to happen. Right. It's not that. You're not causing them, it's just you're, you know, it's like when you're walking, walking in the street and my, you know, nothing good happens on walking on the sidewalk at like four in the morning type of thing.

Like, he's setting himself up for not optimal conditions. So when this horrible thing happens and then the self loathing after, and what happens with his wife Emily, and. And Maisie his daughter. I mean, it's just, it's hard not to read without like grasping your chest like, oh my gosh. Was it hard to write all of that?

Like that must have felt, or do you like that feeling of like, oof. 

Wally: No, there's a part of me maybe is su superstitious that if I write about these terrible things happening to people, maybe, maybe they won't happen to, to me or my family. But that was only a little bit of part of it. No, it was difficult to wr to write about.

Um, because, you know, I, I become these characters. I always write in the first person. Um, I think probably, oh, hey Pooch. 

Zibby: Oh, sorry my dog. 

Wally: No, don't be sorry. No. But, um, you know, I. You know, I hear actors talk about what they do, you know, for a living. And I, I sort of nod, uh, in recognition because what I do is like, I, you know, I walk into the, the room where I write, which is where I am now, and I become somebody else for, you know, five, six hours.

And then, um, luckily I'm able to, you know, shed that skin and go back to my own. Much more peaceful life. But yeah, I do feel, I feel when I, when I'm writing as these characters, I feel what they're feeling. 

Zibby: Well, the horror of the event just keeps going with, I don't wanna give things away. There's so much that happens and I don't wanna like tell everybody, but it just like keeps getting worse.

It's like when you feel like your main character can't take anything else. He has like even more horrible, painful things physically and emotionally happening. How do you come back from this? And that's why I started by saying that is about resilience because he gets through, it shows us like we can get through anything.

Is that what you were kind of going for? Even though it just evolved? 

Wally: You know, I wasn't going for anything in particular. I had no idea. And, and this is true of just about all the things that I've written, all the novels anyway, I didn't know where it was gonna go. I didn't know what was gonna happen. Uh, but another, another thing that um, sort of served me while I was writing this novel is that I had had a 20 year experience working with, um, imprisoned women.

I ran a writing program for them, started in 1999 and had left the program in 2019. So, and, and this is a writing program, you know, I was a volunteer and, and the, the women, you know, once they got to trust me and trust one another, they began to write above their, their lives and in many cases, their secrets.

You know, they began to, uh, divulge, you know, what had. Uh, derailed their lives. Uh, some of them, many of them, uh, had, uh, been the victims of incest when they were kids. But anyway, some of the women were, uh, you know, they had had, you know, okay, middle class lives or working class lives, and then like Corby in the novel.

One day something happens and you know, they go off the rails. And so whereas some of the womens that I dealt, some of the women that I dealt with, you know, had lives of crime that, you know, from early on, others just did a. Something one day and found themselves in prison, which is, you know, I mean he, which is not to say that Corby didn't, you know, cause him to, uh, you know, to do, to do this terrible thing and end up in prison.

But that was, that was instructive for me that you could be living your life, you know, uh, ethically. Uh, and then something happens, you snap or whatever and, uh, and then you spend a lot of years. Having to repent. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. Will you talk. You set it up with, you know, struggling with substances. Right. Corby is,.. 

Wally: Mm-hmm.

Zibby: Is really self-medicating his way through Twin fatherhood and as a parent of twins, like that is hard. I get it. It is hard to get through. Yeah. Some days, but we don't, there's a lot written, I feel like, about moms needing wine to get through. The tough times, but there's a lot less about like how men cope with the overwhelm of parenting.

Talk a little bit about that. 

Wally: Well, he's, uh, before he becomes the, um, you know, the custodian parent, he, uh, uh, he's lost his job. So he was a sort of a conventional 30 something guy working for an advertising firm. And then they, and then that firm. Sort of, uh, you know, uh, it, it sort of, you know, uh, there's a reduction in force or reduction in, in people.

And he, and he's on the chopping block. And so now he has a wife who is a, is a teacher, and, uh, she becomes the chief breadwinner. And, uh, he loves, he loves, uh, the kids, uh, his twins, his, his, uh, 2-year-old twins. But he also, as a guy, feels. Somehow disconnected and some something of a failure, uh, because he, you know, he's no longer.

You know, the, the family breadwinner. And so, um, he begins to, uh, he gets, he gets, he is anxious and so, uh, he gets a prescription for, uh, a benzodiazepine. And, uh, he becomes addicted to that. And he also starts drinking and he does this. Sneakily and his, so that his wife doesn't see, she knows about the prescription, but she doesn't know that he's also drinking during the day when in fact he's, you know, he's also parenting those kids.

So that sort of leads to what happens with him. And, you know, I have had my own, you know, uh, problems with, uh, alcohol. And, um, I've been, uh, I've been sober for about 14 years now, but I, I bring my own experience into the, uh, into some of his addictive behavior. 

Zibby: Hmm. Is there a moment that you think of when you were.

Struggling. That's a, a moment that you wish so much you could take back. 

Wally: Yeah, I think, well not a, not a moment, but sort of a, a way that my life, I didn't seem like me for a while there and this was, this happened to me. I was a late bloomer in terms of alcoholism. And so, um, you know, I drank enthusiastically.

Before that, but in my, it was in my fifties when it became, uh, a real problem and it was at a crossroads. We had, uh, we had just adopted a, a very troubled kid, you know, we had two of our, two of our own children, and then we adopted a third who was, uh, mentally ill. And, um, and, uh, you know, had come from a terrible situation.

So there were, and, and so there was the challenge of that. He had suddenly he changed all the rules of, of parenting that we, that we, we thought we knew about, you know, we could love him. He was poor when he, when he came into our lives and, you know, we thought, we thought, okay, we can keep him safe and we can love him and um, and he'll come out okay.

But we were ignorant about, uh, the damage that can be caused in very early childhood. So there was that. At the same time, my parents were, I was becoming a, a parent of my parents, my mother had a number of strokes and she was kind of losing her mind. And my father had Parkinson's disease and so, um, they became very much in need of my support.

So there was, you know, there were these things happening. And then, and then the third element was that, you know, I had, I'd had this glorious thing happen twice with the Oprah Book Club, but I was. It intimidated me to write the first sentence of something new because I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna disappoint these suddenly millions of readers that I had.

And, and so I was, I was afraid, I was afraid to write. So it was the, it was the, you know, that perfect storm of those three things happening. Uh, and I began to, um, escape by using, uh, by medicating myself with, uh, with alcohol, uh, not, not any kind of. Prescription medication. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Wally: But it was, uh, you know, it was, it was easy to go, the easy to go to the package store and spend your night with your bottle.

Zibby: And how did you know it was, when did you know it was a problem and when did you seek help? 

Wally: Uh, I knew it was a problem. I. About this wasn't for a 10 year period. I knew I was, I knew it was a problem about five years in, but then I was, um, I was too afraid to, uh, go to any, you know, 12 step program because, uh, suddenly I was, you know, I had this, name recognition and that was keeping me away. It was pride, really. And so it, you know, it just got worse. It spiraled down and, uh, thank God my wife, you know, hung in there with me. And, uh, so eventually I had to walk in and, and, you know, sort of declare myself to a bunch of strangers. And what was, what the wonderful thing was, was that it opened me up to all kinds of people who I hadn't known before and, uh, really, and, and I, and I still go to, to meetings and, and I, I've had so many good friendships come out of it. And so really, you know, you think it, you think this terrible thing is gonna lead to more terrible things, but in, in my case, it led to a very, very good dividend.

Zibby: Hmm. Wow. Well good for you for getting to the other side of that and being inspiring those who might be struggling. Do you still feel that fear of starting a book. 

Wally: Oh, yes. Yeah, I had just started a new one, you know, but the, uh, the one that, that's coming out soon, The River's Waiting. I actually finished that at the end of last year, and so I didn't know what else to do.

I thought maybe, well, maybe that's my last novel. And then, uh, I was hanging around the house for about a week or so, and I go, yeah, I, I don't know what to do, so I'll, I'll try something else. And so, so I started, uh, uh, I started this one and it, I, I knew the other one had to, had to come out first. So I wasn't so intimidated to start this because I figured, uh, well, you know, nobody's gonna have to look at this and, you know, for a long time.

Zibby: That's so funny. Oh my gosh. Do you feel like you'll jinx it if you say what this one is about? Can you talk about it at all? 

Wally: I'll tell you a little bit about it. Uh, the main character is a, a feisty young woman named Josephine, who is, uh, who's born in 1898, and, uh, she's born into a, into a family. She's got two brothers.

She idolizes one brother and she can't stand her bratty little brother because, uh, he is, he, uh, his, their mother enters him in the, uh, the charming child contest in, uh, which actually was the thing, I think it was in daily news. And, uh, and he wins second prize. And, uh, so the mother, you know, she, her younger son, you know, can do no wrong and Josephine Josie is just really pissed off about this. And, uh, he's a little brat. He's a little manipulator. And, and then, you know, the story grows up. Yeah. I mean, she grows up a little bit in the, in the story and he does. And, uh, he becomes a, a, a sort of a conniver, uh, with women and, uh, and her brother, her other brother, her second, her older brother becomes, um a soldier in World War I, so I had to do a ton of research on that horrible war. And so that's, I'm about, eh, I'm about maybe a hundred, 125 pages into it. Uh, and again, I'm not sure quite where it's going. 

Zibby: I mean, if you want, I could throw out some lighter topics for you. You just go right to the, it's like you can't think of anything, you know, researching a new war, it's like you're a glutton for punishment.

Wally: Yeah. Well I did write one funny book called Wishing and Hoping. Yeah. And they, uh, they actually made a, a, a movie, a Christmas movie out of it. And that, that was a delight to, to write. It was the fastest thing I ever wrote, and it was a lot of fun. And, and being, you know, going to the movie set and everything.

That was fun. That was that one stars, um, uh, Molly Ringwald and the Late Great Meatloaf, who I, who I met, who I met on the set one time. And, uh, he said. Oh yeah, the other guy who wrote that book, right? And I said, yeah. And he says, well, I wanna tell you something, Wally. I've had three concussions in my life and proceeds to tell me about the three concussions.

I'm like. Okay. I'm not sure where that came from, but, uh, but I've, but I'm gonna listen, uh, intently. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh, I was kidding. Of course. About the, you know, lighter topics. Um 

Wally: Oh, sure, sure. Well, I do, I do have to, because I write about these bleak things, I do have to sort of, uh, save myself by, uh, putting in some, uh, some comic relief.

So, uh, usually there is a friend or somebody. In the, you know, the, one of the minor characters, uh, sort of gives the readers a chance to sort of breathe a little bit. In this case, it is one of, uh, one of Corby's cellmates. Um,.. 

Zibby: Yes,.. 

Wally: A guy named, a guy named Manny, Manny Deia, who is half Italian and half Jewish.

And, uh, he's, uh. He's a, he's a, he's sort of a good guy in, uh, in this prison where there are a lot of bad guys. And, uh, so he becomes, uh, Corby's friend, 

Zibby: which is lovely. When you finish a day of intense writing and you walk back into the other room, how is that transition? Are you able to just shake it off or does it linger?

Do you feel it, is it heavy like a coat you're wearing? 

Wally: No, I can usually shake it off, although. Uh, my wife Chris, sometimes she can, she knows, I don't usually talk, tell her, you know, on a day-to-day basis what's happened in the story. But she can tell if something really hard happened because she says your behavior will sort of reflect that.

Hmm. Um, I don't necessarily feel that, but, um, but you know, that's her observation. Uh, um, and I, I play a lot of music. Music lots of times will pull me out and, uh, pull me out of the plot. And I, I also sometimes play music while I'm writing. 

Zibby: Hmm. 

Wally: Uh, usually, you know, uh, on a low volume. But, uh, but, and, and sometimes it, it sort of helps me if I'm trying to figure out what the story is or what the next plot element might be sometimes a lyric, a song lyric, uh, that I kind of overhear while, while the music is going on will direct something. 

Zibby: Sure. 

Wally: Um, and that, and that happened. Uh, it's why it, it's, it's why I like to, um, tip my hat to songwriters because, so I, I've always, every one of my. Novels either is from a song title or has a, uh, like a, an excerpt, uh, from a, uh, from a song, from a song lyric.

And this latest one, the River Is Waiting, actually came in the middle of writing the story. And, uh, it's a, it's an old John Fogarty song. He was the lead singer for breed's Clearwater Revival and this beautiful version of this same song by Irma Thomas, who is uh, uh, one of the mainstays of New Orleans music.

So, um, yeah, that's, uh, I like, I like to sort of tip my hat to the musicians for helping me find the way and, and, um, you know, The River Is Waiting. I, so I decide, okay, that has to be the title. I'm not sure why, but, um, what is the river waiting for? Then I have to ask myself that question and try to try to solve that riddle.

Zibby: Hmm. So interesting. Oh my gosh. Okay. Well, what advice do you have for aspiring authors. 

Wally: Well, I've worked with a lot of aspiring oth authors, high school kids for about, uh, 25 years, and then I worked at, uh, as the head of creative writing at the University of Connecticut for a while, and then I worked for the prison with the prison writers and so forth.

And I, I, I tell them the same message that the real writing comes in revision. You know, don't ever feel that you can get it right in a first draft. It doesn't happen to me, and it doesn't happen to any of the professional writers that I know, and I have been in a writer's group for, oh God, almost I, when I started writing, first of all at Vermont College and, uh, and then later, you know, with a private writing group that, and we've been going together for years, decades.

And, um, so you, so you humble yourself to the process. You listen to other people. About how you might add something that's gonna make it better or cut something that's gonna make it better, or clarify something that you think is clear but other people don't. Uh, and, um, and sometimes re re reordering, putting things like you might have a you might have a great paragraph that's buried in the middle of an essay or a, or a story. So try it at the beginning, you know, uh, see if you like it. In other words, um, that I like to, I really like to revise. I think a first draft is grunt work. I mean, it, that becomes really hard to me. And then after that, um, there's more play involved.

Zibby: Hmm. I love that, Wally, thank you so much. The River Is Waiting. So beautiful, so emotional. This is what good books do, right? They make you feel like you're going through it yourself. And, um, it was really beautiful. 

Wally: Thank you. I really, I really enjoyed this. Uh, and the, uh, you know, the way I know it is because I thought about 10 minutes had gone by and, uh, and instead it's time to close. So, uh, that, that, that's a tribute to you. You're a great interviewer. Thank you, Zibby. And thank you for all you do for books and for, for readers and writers as well. 

Zibby: Thank you. That's very sweet. 

Wally: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: Thank you so much. All right. Have a great day. 

Wally: Bye-bye. 

Zibby: Thank you. Bye-bye. 

Wally: You too.