Zibby is joined by #1 New York Times and USA Today bestselling author W. Bruce Cameron to discuss his charming and heartfelt new novel, MY THREE DOGS—his 36th published book! Bruce reveals how a car ride conversation with his now-wife Cathryn Michon (who was just on the podcast!) inspired A DOG’S PURPOSE, the first novel that launched him into the “dog book” niche and transformed his life. He describes how all his stories highlight the deep, emotional bonds humans share with their pets—and his belief that love is eternal and can come back to us in different forms. Finally, he shares his best advice for aspiring writers.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Bruce. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss your many books that have really improved the lives of my kids and myself and our whole family in reading them. So thank you so much for all you do. 

Bruce: Oh, thank you. And for having me. This is great.

Zibby: Oh, um, and it's been wonderful meeting you at the bookstore and your lovely wife, Catherine, and everything. So that's been such a joy. 

Bruce: It has really been fun. And, uh, it just, this business is such an interesting business and it keeps just getting more. I meet more people every day. I mean, authors, bookstore, booksellers, that is just, it's just wonderful.

Zibby: So. Maybe, I know you have so many books, a couple, two new books coming out this fall. I mean, you're so prolific, it's amazing. And you have such a huge body of work already with, uh, All of your series is and basically, how did you turn your love of dogs into stories that literally everyone can relate to a movie that people cry and love and my dog is shaking in the background.

Yeah, exactly. Like, how did, how did you tap into that and when and why and just what's the backstory? 

Bruce: Yeah, I didn't set out to be the dog book guy. I was the humor book guy. I wrote a book called Eight Simple Rules for Dating My Teenage Daughter and it became a TV show on ABC. And that's why I moved out to Hollywood.

Before that, I was just a humor writer for the Rocky Mountain News and then the Denver Post. And then I was syndicated. So I was just writing jokes. And then I got into this dog book business because Catherine Bichon, my now wife, was this woman I had met out in Hollywood and I was, we were dating. This is almost, it's almost embarrassing to say because I'm so old.

Why am I dating? But, and then she wanted me to meet her parents. 

Zibby: I read that in the afterword my gosh. Anyway, keep going. 

Bruce: It's so unseemly. But anyway, so I, uh, we were on our way up to meet her parents and her, she turns me out of the blue and says, you know, I lost my dog. I can't do that again. I'll never have another dog.

And I was just, well, I was devastated. I felt like I was sandbagged. She should have told me that before I got in the car to drive up the Bay Area, because it's like a career to get up there, you know? And I was like, so I was trapped in the car with her. I decided to try to talk her into the idea that the same love she had from her original dog would be available to her in another dog.

And that that dog might even be her original dog come back to her. And so I, I made up a story about a reincarnating dog and I told her this story and she loved it. And she said, you have to write that as a book. So I did. And that was a dog's purpose and a dog's purpose completely changed. There it is.

Completely changed the trajectory of my life because, uh, we sold it immediately as a movie script. And we, uh, it's we meaning Catherine and I were writing partners in our movie. Um, and then I have, this is my 36th published book here. About 28 of them are dog books, meaning books, featuring dogs, books from a dog point of view.

That's kind of my specialty. And just on the topic, this is book number. which will be out in, uh, October. 

Zibby: So Bruce is for those who can't see Bruce is holding up my three dogs and hold up the other one about the firehouse, which I started reading also Ripley fire station five. Yes. Tell me about those two books.

Bruce: I would love to. So I started a new series called dogs with a purpose and I have had amazing success for the whole line of books. Called The Puppy Tales, and these are books like Bailey's Story, Molly's Story, Ellie's Story, and the children just love them, they skew, there you go. 

Zibby: I have them all here. This is actually embarrassing at this point, but anyway, okay.

Bruce: There you go, the three I named. Yeah, children love those books. I, again, I didn't set out to be a children's book author. Uh, that was entirely by accident. And I'm not, to this day, a children's book writer. Uh, I author children's books, and what happens is I write a book for an adult. And then they tinker with it at the publisher to make it, the vocabulary less sophisticated.

The rule is if they don't know what the word means, the kids are not going to know what the word means. I'm okay with that rule. And so I've, I've written 10 of those puppy tales. I've got an 11th coming out next year. But I wanted to write a more focused on dogs that have jobs. And I called them dogs with a purpose.

And the first one was Zeus. Water rescue about a water rescue chocolate Labrador, living in Hawaii and learning to save drowning people. Ripley fire station five is the story of a dog that flunks out of blind dog training. You know, guide dogs for the blind. Uh, but it's still highly intelligent, a blue Merle Border Collie, beautiful dog adopted by a firefighter who has a theory and the theory is that in a fire, when you're looking for people who are trapped by the fire, there's no better way to do that than to employ a dog with that magnificent nose, even with a mascot, I was.

One of my first jobs was working for the fire department in a suburban area outside of Kansas City. And I was on the rescue squad. So it was part of my job to go into a burning building and search for people. Well, I couldn't see anything. Uh, I was wearing all this equipment. I think they liked it. They thought it was funny to give me the oldest, heaviest equipment.

So at that time, when I stepped out of the shower, uh, I weighed 135 pounds and the equipment weighed 135 pounds. So basically I could stand up or lie down. I had no other positions. So anyway, I thought this is crazy. I'm in this house. I can't see anything but smoke. It's like someone has taken masking tape and put it on my mask.

I thought, why don't we have dogs? I thought a dog could cut through the clutter. You can train a dog to ignore everything else and just focus on finding the person. And that was the genesis of the idea for Ripley. And it's a very similar experience to mine. Ripley is brought to a suburban fire department outside of Minneapolis.

And Ripley is taught how to search for people in the fire and along the way becomes friends. With, uh, his dog trainer, a girl named Samantha who has anxiety disorder and is afraid she's a work for agoraphobic. And so Ripley sort of becomes a service dog for her and then also works at the fire department.

And then there's a lot of conflict there, which is he going to be? Can he be both? And then there's a person in the fire department, a Lieutenant who says, no dog should be allowed. Out in the fire department. So it's, uh, there's a lot going on, uh, that's not just adventure, but then there's just like, like as was true with Zeus, Another Dog is a Perfect Novel, Ripley is a story that has a lot of adventure, a lot of action, if you will.

Zibby: Interesting. So what happened in your firehouse? Did you get the dog to help out? 

Bruce: We, I, I was like the most junior person in the fire department. None of my ideas were considered to be of any value whatsoever. They saw me basically as there to wash the dishes, and that's basically it. That was my most valuable function as far as they were concerned.

Zibby: But that is a good idea. Maybe your book will change the way they do everything. 

Bruce: Maybe it will. Wouldn't that be great? I mean, we use, we use dogs in search and rescue all the time, but the idea of in a burning building, I don't, I've never seen that. 

Zibby: Well, then you put the dog at risk, too. I don't know. I see the pros and cons, but 

Bruce: Oh my gosh.

Zibby: Amazing. And then the next one, the three dogs. 

Bruce: Oh, let's talk about my three dogs because so let's go all the way back to the origin, which was a dog's purpose and that trilogy, a dog's purpose, a dog's journey, a dog's promise. Those dogs introduced people to the idea that we can have a first person, wonderful.

Thank you. 

Zibby: Sorry, I keep holding up my books. 

Bruce: We can have a story told from the point of view of the dog. And that furthermore, we would reflect on how dogs feel about things, how they experience the world. A lot of people found it to be a unique experience to read a dog's purpose. And I always wanted to write about multiple dogs because dog packs are such an interesting dynamic and they're, uh, and dynamic is the perfect word because they change all the time.

And we tend to think of a pack as being like a corporation. It's very static. Nears up. And then there's the vice dog and then there's the secretary dog and then the treasurer dog, you know, which that's how we would organize a dog pack. Dog packs are completely different. In this particular novel, my three dogs, the alpha dog is the Australian Shepherd in the front.

And Luna is sort of his best friend. She's a Jack Russell terrier. Wicked smart. Jack Russells are known to be just cunning and keen and really smart. And then they wind up adopting this very goofy labradoodle. This is a story of these three dogs in a pack that gets separated by humans because their owner is in an accident and they don't know.

They don't know what's going on. All they know is one day he doesn't come home and he's in a coma. And so people trying to think of the best thing to do, they separate the dogs and adopt them out to different families. And the Australian shepherd wants to herd. The pack back together. That's what an Australian shepherd would want to do.

So from their point of view, this is a story about three dogs separated and who want to get back together. And then they want to go find their person because they know something is not right. It's very close to the original voice of a dog's purpose. It's for those fans. It's for somebody who longs for a, just a dog experience and plot spoiler.

The dog doesn't die. 

Zibby: Good to know. Oh my gosh. I can't wait to read that. That sounds amazing. Is that already going to be a movie? What is up with all the film book to film extensions of all the brands and everything? 

Bruce: Well, you know, COVID put the brakes on everything. And then we had a couple of industry strikes and then we had industry, industry contraction.

During all of this, we've had. Several books in play. We've got one where we can't tell you, but we've got a deal to make the movie, and it, I think, will start shooting in February. A lot of things would have to go wrong for that not to happen, but it's not announced yet, so I have to keep it secret. 

Zibby: Okay, I won't say anything.

Bruce: But yeah, all of my books that are dog themed, you know, it's really hard to name a dog movie that has failed. They're usually moneymakers, because people like the idea of having a main character that's lovable, optimistic, happy, and loyal, and offers unconditional love. I mean, people movies can't do that, but dog movies can.

Zibby: Interesting. You know, it's funny, a couple years ago, I met Garth Stein at a lunch someone else was having. And he was talking about, How when he tried to sell the art of racing in the rain from a dog's perspective, his agent thought he was crazy and then nobody would represent him. And he was like laughed out of the room everywhere.

And he was like, people, people just thought he was, he had lost his mind. And he was like, no, there's something here. I really like it. And so he didn't give, give up. And of course it became a huge hit as well. Tell me about that. And is there any pushback now? On different points of view. I mean, I know there's so many books now from so many, it seems obvious in retrospect, like, of course this would work, but doing it doesn't, doesn't feel obvious necessarily.

Bruce: Well, here's my Garstein story. So he got his agent, he got his book out and it went to auction. And I had no idea six months before my fully written book. It wasn't a proposal. It was the novel, uh, was taken out by my agent. My agent called me and said, I've never in the history of my relationship with my clients said this, but I'm going to say it to you.

I can guarantee you I'm going to sell this book. And then every publisher said, Oh. There's already a dog point of view book. And so ..

Zibby: My gosh, 

Bruce: you know, we can't have more than one of those. And so this thing languished for two years and it was a tiny imprint at McMillan. Where a do it or picked it up and said, I think this could be a good project with that finally broke the ice.

So I, and I, and I don't understand why I don't see more dogs in movies and book and read more dogs and books. I mean, dogs are, I mean, seven, some 77 percent of Americans either have a dog or, or have had a dog that makes dogs a pretty ubiquitous presence in the lives of all of us. 

Zibby: Yes. Wow. Well, sorry, I didn't realize that was, he had blocked the sale, um, I guess, but it had taken him so long to get there that, I don't know, it's, I don't know, things just worked out.

Bruce: I've never had the honor of meeting him, uh, but, uh, if I do, I won't, there's no, certainly no hard feelings. I, I just think it just shows how people think when they were like, and the same thing has happened with the movies, by the way, A Dog's Purpose, A Dog's Journey came out and A Dog's Way Home came out.

And then people are like, that's it. People don't want to see any more dog movies. And we could, we couldn't even get a meeting. And then a little movie called rescue by Ruby, uh, was a big hit for one of the streamers, I think Netflix. And then all of a sudden they're like, where's your next dog project going to come from?

And that producer called us. And that's why we're in, we're in business with that producer and we believe we're going to have a movie going any day now. 

Zibby: Wow. I mean, I love those movies. Like, I could watch, I have watched your movies, I would watch all of these a million times and there's something so uniting as a family to watch a movie about the dog because I feel like a dog is, we all feel like.

The dog is ours personally and also collectively and there are no other books or movies that quite tap into that joint experience and joint love that's not someone else within the family, which is complicated. This is just such a pure love. So, anyway, I think they're all wrong, so I, I, I say, I say flood, flood the market with more.

It's my 

Bruce: Let's flood the market. 

Zibby: Let's flood the market. I think it'll be fine. There's enough, uh, there are enough outlets for it. One thing that, you know, resonates and gives me some goosebumps when I read, read the books and even, uh, Catherine's new book and the movie, of course, this idea that dogs come back and that people come back.

Why are you so convinced of this? And like, how do we know? How do we know any of it? I want to believe it. I really do. And I, I, I feel convinced when I, when I read the, the books and all that, but then I don't know. How do we know? 

Bruce: Well, I'm glad you brought that up because I'll wave this book at you. This is called I'm Still Here, A Dog's Purpose Forever.

Zibby: Wait, I have that one too. Yes. I just, I, you know, I read this as well and was like near tears, but yes. 

Bruce: This is a book that Catherine and my dog Tucker wrote together and it talks about the eternal nature of love. And it talks about how a dog is still here with us based on a, an, an absolute faith that, uh, Catherine and I both have that dogs and people that you love don't really leave us that something remains with us, something that we can reach out for.

And it goes all the way back to that original story. I told her in the car about the, a dog's love is there for you. And it might even be the same dog coming back to you. Aye. Just believe in the internal nature of love. And I, and I believe that when we have a dog, that that dog's final thoughts are a, a true worry that if we don't have any other dogs, That we're going to be dogless.

And I think a dog is so concerned about that. And so just absolutely convinced that we need to have a dog in our lives, that they might come back to us just to spare us the grief of not having our dog. So yeah, it's, uh, it's not, it's not. Written down anywhere, you can't, I, I've not found it like in the Bible or anything, but it's just really my belief that, that this strong, strong love that we have with our dogs, with our other pets, with our parents is a bond that doesn't break just because one of them passes away.

Zibby: And so, I mean, I'm assuming from the books and everything that you. Believe in signs and, you know, watching the wagging tail of the dog or watching another dog turn in the same way and all of that, like the image is sort of imprinted forever. I like to believe in signs as well. And I, I feel them sometimes, but then the rational part of my brain wants to talk me out of it.

Do you feel like you're seeing signs a lot? Not to get too, you know, woo woo in this conversation, but what do you, how do you What proof do you feel you get? 

Bruce: So I love the fact that you said that the rational part of your brain, and yes, we all have that rational part, but on the other hand, what's rational about love?

Why is it rational for these dogs to be so devoted to us, and for us to be so devoted to them? That's not rational. It turns out we're, we're dabbling in a topic, in a subject, in a, in a world that where rationality isn't exactly the standard by which everything is measured. They're feelings. These are inexplicable emotions in terms of where does love come from within you that you've got it.

Uh, not just for dog, but for, for people you can rationalize it and say, well, I love my parents because they take care of me and they raised me. But is that why you love? You have a deep love for your parents. That is in many ways, you know, fraught with what happens when you become an adult and you're a different person than maybe what your parents wanted or whatever.

And yet that, that love is still there. How is that rational? So I I, I do believe you're absolutely right. You could say, yeah, this can't possibly be true. How could a dog come back? But I have had so many people come up to me and say, my dog noodles is exactly. My dog squiggles and who passed away and I'll think, well, you have, first off, I need to give you a book on dog names.

Cause these are the worst. I've never heard, but aside from that, yeah, maybe you're exactly right. What you're feeling is that this dog is the same dog, knows the same things. I, I didn't think there's something too bad. 

Zibby: Okay. I'm going to go with it. It's comforting. It's comforting to believe in things that, you know.

are the way you want them to be and not dissuade, dissuade yourself. So I'm, I'm going to go with that. How do you keep coming up with so many ideas and how long does it take for you to write each book? Like what does that whole process look like? Cause you are so prolific. 

Bruce: Thank you. My process is both mechanical and inspirational.

The inspiration is that I just, I, I live in a movie multiplex in my mind. I always have multiple stories going and that has been true for so long. I don't remember a time. When I didn't have a story going in my head, I don't remember a time where I had trouble remembering what was real. The biggest, this, this really manifests itself when I'm watching a movie and I realized the first time I saw the movie, I wrote scenes in my head that I wanted for that movie and I'm waiting for those scenes.

And then when they don't show up, I think, how did that happen? And it's happened enough that I've come to realize, oh no, that I did that. That was here. That was my brain. That was, you know, That was crazy. So, so I just always have stories in my head and, uh, the hard part is deciding which one people would want to hear.

You know, I have a very small group of friends that I can bounce ideas off of. And, uh, but even if none of them like it, even if my agent doesn't like it, that doesn't mean I shouldn't write it. If I feel called to, I'm going to write it. And then, you know, I've been writing books, literally, my first book was in college, which was, it was a terrible book, but it was my first.

And I have taught myself a method now, so the other part's mechanical. Once I've decided on a story, I start outlining. And I will spend months outlining a novel, and I'll go through several drafts of that outline. But when I'm done, I have an exact blueprint. I have thought of everything. The end. And I just sit down and do the easy part, which is to fill in the words and.

And then I rewrite it and rewrite it and rewrite it. I rewrite every book seven times before I submit it. And then it comes back from the publisher with notes and I rewrite it the eighth time. Then, then it comes back again with a copyright. I rewrite it again. And then it comes back for the, what they call first past pages now, but I don't know why they call them that.

And I'm like, I'm, this is exhausting. When do I get rid of this thing? But that's the process now. And I've gotten, I've, I've just gotten really well practiced at it. I I've written, I wrote nine books before I sold my 10th book. And I've written a couple more since then that have not been published. So I maybe have written 11 plus the 30, 37.

Plus there's another one that's already done and coming out next year. So, you know, 48, 49, 56 books, 57, I've written 57 books. So I've come to, I've come up with a formula. I've come up with a way to apply myself. I track everything on a spreadsheet. It's very. Uh, it's not very romantic, but it's just because I, I've got a schedule, I've got a deadline and if I want to keep writing these other projects that nobody bought, I have to have time to do that as well.

So I just, uh, I just stick to my, stick to my routine. 

Zibby: Wow. And when do you get the humor out? 

Bruce: You know, with dogs, it's so easy to pull humor in. In my three dogs, the humor I think comes from this labradoodle showing up and just disrupting the life of this Aussie who just wants everything to be under control and gets really irritated when it's not.

And, uh, I think that's pretty funny. And in Ripley fire station five, I just always thought that the way that firefighters talk to each other and the station was hilarious, you know, they, they just say a lot of really funny stuff. And so there's a lot of humor there because I just sort of channeled what it was like to listen to these guys talk to each other, always very derisive, always very sarcastic, but they're for each other.

So it was a fire. They were there to save each other. 

Zibby: So do you feel like after all these books, you still have to be involved in the marketing of all the books? Like, does it ever end? 

Bruce: No, no, it doesn't ever end. It is absolutely, uh, and it's a real time drain. I would much rather just crank out books and Other people handle the marketing.

No, but every single day, every single day, I have to do something associated with marketing today. I went to the post office and spent an hour there with boxes of book plates that are going out to various bookstores. I, I just, that's just what I do. And, and it's okay. There's a lot of marketing stuff that I really like.

I like doing this with you. 

Zibby: Thank you. 

Bruce: Especially when it's professional and warm and fun and friendly. But I will say after a while, I'm like, when do I get to write? I really want to just sit down and write. 

Zibby: Interesting. And have you noticed, not to get too in the weeds of publishing, but as your career has evolved, is there anything that has changed so much that you're, you really happy about or things that have gone in a direction you're not so happy about?

Bruce: Well, you know, the explosion of self publishing means that, uh, authors very often get drowned out by all the similar books. Here's an example. I was going to write a book about a dog, a war dog, Dog. I wanted to write a book, write the story of a dog who goes overseas on a military mission and what happens.

And I had a good idea for a story. I knew I was going to have to do a lot of research because unlike my son, I've never been in the military, but, uh, I, you know, there's lots of stories out there. I thought I could, I thought I could figure this out. And then I went to a book festival in Savannah, Georgia, and this one was open to self published people.

And I started walking, they closed off city streets and I started walking down the city street. And one display after another was for that exact book, a war dog. And maybe they're all wonderful books. I didn't have time to really read it. There's just no way I could separate myself from the pack. And furthermore, it's for me to write about a war when I've never been in one.

Then that seemed. That seemed wrong. So the rise of self publishing has been, has meant I have to be much more competitive. I have to figure out ways to brand and stand out. And that's a little exhausting. I have an advantage because I've got a couple movies under my belt and a recognizable brand. And I speak to about 50 schools a year, elementary schools, so the kids know who I am.

And that's a constantly refreshing audience, and that helps a lot, too. 

Zibby: Interesting. Well, do you have any advice for aspiring authors? 

Bruce: Well, wow. Yeah. I always say, yeah, don't do it. Uh, you know, I actually think my advice would be this don't do what I did, which was to, which was to say, I'm going to be an author, but I'm also going to have a day job where I could have a career and a car and marriage and children and houses and vacations.

If I, if I had to do it all over again, I'd sit down with. Fresh out of college, Bruce, and I'd say, if you're really serious about this, You need to do is get a job as a barista or something. That's not a career that has a definite start time and an end time where you're not marching up a corporate ladder.

You're just, you're just paying the bills and you're not living large. And you're certainly not going to have. A girlfriend, but that doesn't matter because you're writing and that's how you're going to get what you really want out of life. And I, I, I did that. I had the career, I worked with General Motors.

I was an executive. I had children, I had a house, I had all that. And it just meant that I was distracted From 18, you can't have a 60 to 80 hour a week job and be, uh, a novelist with any kind of output. 

Zibby: Wow. We actually, because I'm a publisher now too, we acquired a book recently by a former Starbucks barista who's now a teacher.

There you go. There you go. She did it. 

Bruce: She did it. 

Zibby: Bruce, thank you so much. I hope you're going to do an event at our store when your books come out. I hope that's in the works. If not, I have to get that going. I would love it. 

Bruce: No, it's on the schedule. I just saw it. 

Zibby: Great. Okay, good. 

Bruce: It's for, uh, for my three dogs.

Zibby: Okay. Perfect. Yay. My three dogs. Oh my gosh. So excited to read it. I've read so much of your work. I'm such a fan. As you know, I'm almost embarrassed by my sort of adulation here, but anyway, thank you so much. And thank you for sharing your journey. I found that so interesting. So thanks. 

Bruce: Thank you. And I hope you're looking at your dog because the commentary that we're seeing for the dog is when is this conversation going to end?

Zibby: Yes. She's, uh, she's not into it. 

Bruce: This guy doesn't know anything about dogs. 

Zibby: No. 

All right. Well, thank you so much and, uh, look forward to seeing you soon. 

Bruce: Thank you for having me. 

Zibby: Okay. Bye.