New York Times bestselling author Steven Rowley returns to the podcast, this time to discuss his much-anticipated sequel, the wildly witty and tenderhearted THE GUNCLE ABROAD. Patrick O’Hara, a reclusive former sitcom actor who unexpectedly becomes the guardian of his niece and nephew after their mother’s death in THE GUNCLE, is now, five years later, returning to his guncle duties by taking them to their dad’s wedding in Italy. Steven talks about his writing process, from tackling loss and grief to injecting humor into his stories. He also shares his approach to writing authentic, immersive travel experiences and his best advice for aspiring writers.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Stephen. Thanks so much for coming back on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss The Gunkle Abroad. Congratulations. 

Steven: Thank you so much. It's a joy to be back with you. 

Zibby: Oh, I really love this book. I really love all your books, but this book especially, I think, because I have kids at this age and stage and, you know, with loss mixed with raising children mixed with new love mixed with, I mean, there's just so much stuff.

And the escapist piece of it, too, is just so beautiful so great. So anyway, I really enjoyed it. Congratulations. It's really awesome. 

Steven: I'm thrilled to hear that. Thank you. 

Zibby: So, okay, tell listeners what The Gunkle Abroad is about and, and maybe touch on The Gunkle in case people haven't read it. 

Steven: Yeah, let's backtrack there for a moment.

The Gunkle came out in May of 2021. For those who missed that first book, you don't need to read the first book. book to enjoy this one, but I think you'll, there'll be a little bit more sort of inside jokes and whatnot that you might get, understand the relationships between the characters if you start with the first one.

But in that first book, Patrick O'Hara, who is this was sort of a semi retired television, uh, sitcom actor at the time, uh, with living a somewhat reclusive life in Palm Springs when he was tasked with taking in his niece and nephew for the summer after the death of their father. Mom. And it sort of led to a season of healing for all three of them.

And, you know, I always say the one thing an author has absolutely no control over is the state of the world when their book is released. And to the extent that that came out at a time when vaccines were first available, but we were just we were all emerging from a dark year. And, you know, just like these characters are sort of going through a dark time and finding their way Sort of through, it was sort of a book that, that resonated in, in a certain moment.

And I was shocked by the, um, embrace that people had for these characters. And, you know, it took on a life of its own. It became a, a slow, but steady bestseller. Whoopi Goldberg held it up as a favorite book on the view, you know, a movies in the works and, uh, and then it ended up winning the Thurber prize for American humor, which is, you know, sort of the highest prize for written humor.

 In this country. And so I was just bowled over by the hold that that book has with readers, which did not make it easy to decide to write a sequel because the last thing I wanted to undo was any of that magic, you know, or undo any of the goodwill that that readers had for these characters.

There's a lot of pressure, but I think a lot of people assumed. That I missed writing Patrick and indeed, you know, he's a fun character to write, but, you know, spoiler alert. There's a lot of Patrick right here, so I can hang out with Patrick anytime, you know, but my thoughts kept turning to the kids and, you know, it's not a spoiler to say at the end of that first book, they go back to their home in Connecticut where their mom is no longer there and, My heart kept turning to the kids in many ways.

Their grief journey was just beginning at the end of that first book. And I felt I really needed to check in, you know, and see, are the kids okay? Are the kids okay? So that sort of led me to, um, the idea for a sequel. 

Zibby: Wow. So did you feel super nervous starting it out or did you just jump right back in? I saw that you read like a lot of other sequels and series to prepare, which I found very interesting.

Steven: Yeah. I mean, sequels has, have their own drawbacks and potential pitfalls. And in fact, Patrick in the book has quite strong feelings about sequels. And I guess, I guess I do too. Although I will say, That I think Mamma Mia 2, here we go again, is a superior film to Mamma Mia, so I think it can be done. It can be done.

Yeah, it was, it was hard. I mean, I jumped, I was able to jump in as far as I knew the characters. That, that helped. But I had to give a lot of thought to the, to the kids and how they've aged because this, The Gungle Abroad picks up five years. After the events of the first book and the children's father, Greg Patrick's brother is engaged to be remarried and the kids are not.

Happy about it. And so I had to give a lot of thought to like, not only how these kids have aged in five years, they're 11 and 14 now, which is older than how quickly can I subtract five from six and nine? Um, which they were in the first book, you know, that's a big age difference. You know, Having kids, right?

They age a lot in those years, but not only that, they've had their uncle Patrick in their life for five years. So they're not as charmed by some of his antics as they were in the first book. And also I had to give great thought to how grief would inform how they each age, you know, not having their mom, I think for Maisie, the older, Child, you know, becoming a young woman, she's taken on kind of a maternal role for her younger brother and Grant, the boy, I think not having his mom is sort of delayed his adolescence a little bit has sort of slowed his maturation.

And so, you know, I had to get to know the kids again and sort of meet them where they are. 

Zibby: Interesting. I'm doing something similar. With my book blank right now, don't tell my publisher because they said don't write a sequel and I'm like no I'm not going to. But then I tried to write it like a hundred other ways and it's like not going well.

I have the same thing, it's like five years later with the same kids because I know them and I know me. It was basically the character. So what did you learn? 

Steven: Sometimes you can't avoid it. Sometimes, you know, I was talking to Andrew Sean Greer who wrote Less and then, and then Less is Lost. You know, he had themes he wanted to explore.

In a new book. And he thought, well, wait a minute. I already have the perfect character to explore these themes. And sometimes it's better with both for the, for the writer and for the reader. If you have a little bit of history with the character, you can usually, you know, but, but sequels, you know, it is sort of, what do you want to do with a sequel?

A sequel itself is just sort of a tool, but what do you want to say with it? What do you want to accomplish? 

Zibby: What did you take away? I haven't talked to anyone else. He's done a deep dive in sequels. What did you learn? 

Steven: Well, I will say this now, you know, because my publisher was always like, well, will there be a third?

Uh, and I was like, can we just wait and see if anyone buys this? So I will say i've been i've been extremely bowled over by by the way, um, that people have have lined up for this new adventure. And I'm sort of, you know, I'm really grateful for that. It's been, I think, three weeks now the book is out and, and it's doing, it's doing really well.

And I'm hearing wonderful things from readers. So, you know, as far as that's concerned, highly recommend. But, you know, it was also, you know, it was also, Um, a message that I really believed in that I wanted, you know, this is, this is a book, you know, it's about maturing in a way and hopefully I'm maturing as a writer, but the kids, not only the kids growing as we've discussed, but Patrick, you know, the main character is also growing and is facing turning 50 and that's, you know, something I wanted to explore because that was something I was going through in my own life.

But also it's a, it's a book and this is what made it so rewarding. It's a book about finding joy again after loss and that there is room for celebration again, even after we lose someone we love dearly. And that's, and sometimes the best way to, Honor someone we've lost is by embracing life and, you know, to the extent that that's the message of the book, that's a joyous message to embrace.

Zibby: And so it made the whole thing, I think, worthwhile. And you do say in the book, you know, it makes you, it does, it's terrible, but it does make you stronger. There's that, right? 

Steven: There is that, yeah. If you need a silver lining, there is that. 

Zibby: Where did the loss come from for you? Or where did this, I'm assuming, like, where do you write, how do you write so authentically about loss?

Where is that coming from? 

Steven: Yeah, you know, grief is a theme that I've returned to, um, through a number of my books and I try to approach it differently, right? You know, I just think, I worry sometimes that readers think, you know, I know, I must know like a school bus filled of people that just went over a cliff somehow because I, because I write about loss.

Um, so, and, and that's, Not true. I've had my share like, like anybody else, but I do think grief is an important theme to return to because I think it's a Western culture, particularly where we're kind of bad at grief or we approach it with an arrogance, like, Oh, I can schedule it for later. You know, I'm busy now.

I can schedule it for later, or I can just power through it or that it's even temporary, that it's even a temporary condition and it's not something that, you know, seeps into us and becomes part of the fabric of who we are. And the irony, I think, is that, you know, loss is something that should be one of the more uniting human experiences.

You know, if we're lucky enough to love, we will probably lose at some point. And instead, I think so often like we think, oh, we're a burden on someone if we're grieving or we have to isolate and, and separate ourselves. And that's just not true. I want, I want there to be a better conversation about loss.

About grief and grieving. And even though reading can be a solitary activity, you know, it's podcasts like this and it's book groups and discussions that even though we're reading the book. Alone, we are coming together in conversation with others who have read the book as well. And so 

Zibby: totally agree. 

Steven: I think books are a great way to tackle that.

Zibby: Oh my gosh. The note from the mom. Oh my gosh. I mean,.. 

Steven: I'm always going to make you cry. I mean, hopefully I make you laugh, but I'm always going to make you cry. 

Zibby: You are. You are. It's amazing. You are also going to make me travel because I swear, I'm reading the book and I was like, okay, I have, is this a real hotel?

And so then I Googled the Intermezzo, right? Intermezzo is called? 

Steven: The Grand Tramezzo. The Grand Hotel Tramezzo in Lake Como, Italy. Yeah. 

Zibby: So I Googled it. I sent it to Kyle, my husband. I was like, we have to go here. Then I emailed them and said like, do you happen to have any? Availability next week. Anyway, they're full, but I'm determined.

I'm determined. 

Steven: You asked them during wedding season if they had any, uh,... 

Zibby: I couldn't even have gone, but it was just like a five dream, you know, I'm like, well, We could cancel all of our plans with the kids and just take them to Italy, you know, which it is... 

Steven: It's stunning. It's stunning. It is a real hotel.

It's stunning. I have stayed there. I do try to, I try to write places, write about places I've been. And here we go, right? This is a European jaunt. I think it's also no surprise. Anybody who loves these books would not be surprised to hear that, that I was inspired by the Auntie Mame books from the 1950s and then, you know, became a wonderful movie with Rosalind Russell and a Broadway show with Angela Lansbury musical.

But, you know, The sequel to the first Auntie Mame novel was a book called Around the World with Auntie Mame. And these are wonderful reads if anyone wants to go back and find them in paperback. So I knew if I ever revisited these characters as a sort of further hat tip to the, to that series, I would be taking them abroad.

But I also think it's important to write about places we know and places we've been, I think, you know, we've all read books and, and you may have even interviewed writers, like you can tell when a writer is really just taken with their own research, but it's missing that piece that sort of lived to the tactile things, right?

Like how the air feels or, or what the sound is. what the air smells like or what the food tastes like. I mean, you know, it's all those sort of wonderful things that come from, I think actually having been to these places. So I try, but I will cop to the fact that I have never been to Salzburg. I've not done the sound of music tour, which Patrick takes the kids on.

Zibby: What about Plaza Atene in Paris? It's never. 

Steven: Oh my goodness. 

Zibby: And the chocolate showed. I'm like, Oh my gosh. 

Steven: It's so immersive. 

Zibby: It's like a whole vacation in a book. 

Steven: Yeah, yeah. And now I've got the travel itch. These were all trips that I, you know, that I used as inspiration were pre sort of COVID trips. So, you know, this is, you know, cut to me on the phone with my accountant being like, hey, can we reopen those tax returns from 2017, 18 and 19?

Totally. I didn't know it at the time, but they are. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh, I love it. The other thing that I found so fun is just how many movie references you made because these are like, that is my, if I could put a canon of movies together that I loved, it would be in this book from Love Actually and Harry Met Sally, and it's just like all the ones, um, every single one you mentioned, I'm like, uh huh, that one.

Then I was looking, do you have a list of the movies that you mentioned somewhere? Does that exist? 

Steven: No, but you know, I credit, I actually credit my mom, you know, so if you want to sit your kids down and have them watch some of the, you know, I do a little film festival for them because I credit my mom, you know, with sitting me down to watch the sound of music when I was a kid.

And I was like, you know, a nine year old boy. I don't, I, you know, she practically had to tie me to a chair. Like, I don't want to watch about singing nuns. Are you, are you, you know, are you nuts? But, you know, 10 minutes in, I was captivated. You know, absolutely captivated and, you know, she introduced me to a lot of movies that I think have affected the way that I write, you know, even though there were movies and not books, like I think of the terms of endearment, you know, the, the film, not, not the Larry McMurtry novel, which is different, but, or beaches or, or steel magnolias.

And I always think of these as my favorite comedies. And I was talking to someone about this and they're like, Oh, you mean the one where the daughter dies or the best friend dies or the mother dies? And I was like, Oh, yeah, I guess they are, uh, but, but what stuck with me was the humor, you know? And that is what I try to put in my books, too, that even though sad things happen, you know, humor has always been the way through for me and it's that mix of a laugh out loud moment on one page and heartbreak on the next that I think is really defines my work, even though the stories themselves are.

Pretty different.

Zibby: I totally agree. And by the way, I have been doing that with my kids and we have watched Sixteen Candles and Clueless and, you know, they go, they go to their dads and watch like all the action movies and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. And I'm like, is the, meanwhile, the kids who watch this are 10, 9 and 11.

I'm like, it's probably too old, too old for them, but you know, it's fine. It's fine. 

Steven: It's fine. Yeah. 

Zibby: I also think there's nothing. That will show you just how perceptive kids are than showing them a movie and like asking questions and realizing like they can spot a crush from a mile away, you know, it's so and books to you reference Judy bloom and like all these there's just beloved.

It's like, it's clear that we are of the same era. But even if you weren't, it wouldn't even matter. 

Steven: But yeah, I don't think it matters. You know, part of it is, you know, having a sort of a queer lead in a story like, you know, yeah, Pop culture is such an important language in the gay community. You know, we trade and sort of pop cultural references, but you in a novel format, you, you know, it takes a long time to, to write a book.

And then, and then publishing is a long lead industry, as you know and so, you know, it could be two years, you know, the whole process or more getting something to the shelf and then you want your book to have a long shelf life. After that, so you don't want anything, you know, the is in that you don't want to be like two current or two of the moment because unless you're really anchoring your story in a specific year for a reason, but if the if the references are all sort of classic, then hopefully the book has a more timeless feel.

Zibby: Yes, absolutely. Oh my gosh. Did you outline the story or did you just have it in your head? What was going to happen? Or did it just all come out? 

Steven: I outlined the itinerary, the travel itinerary, I think, but beyond that, I'm sort of a classic pantser, you know, as, as we say in the biz, right? We fly by the seat of my pants.

And in this case, I sort of knew, I knew that I had a strong sense of the opening scene and I knew kind of the ending. I knew where I wanted to go. And beyond that, I had, you know, Travel destinations along the way. I had like almost like a map, like here's, here's where they're, here's their Eurorail tickets and here's where they're going to go.

And then I let the journey sort of unfold in front of me. And that was, that was a joyous way to write this book because it allowed me to feel like I was on the trip. 

Zibby: Can I read a funny scene from the beginning? Is that okay? Yes! I think I dog eared it. Your dialogue is always so hilarious. Here, wait, hold on.

Oh, this is from like the very beginning, but okay. Grant's game console, Grant is the child, the, the little, the boy. Grant's game console made a sound like something swirling a drain, and he groaned, why can't dad marry Palma, Palmena? Speaking of nemeses, a cold chill ran down Patrick's spine. Palmino's a lesbian, you know that.

Grant didn't seem to view that as disqualifying. Yeah, but gay marriage is legal now. Yes, for gay people to marry other gay peop, wait, why would you want your dad to marry Palmino? Grant shrugged, but they all knew the answer. Palmino was the very definition of sprezzatura. In every way, she exuded an effortless cool.

Maybe you should marry her. Gay men can't marry lesbians, Patrick said appalled. Oh no, here come the gunkle rules. Maybe stick out her tongue in protest. Gunkle rules were Patrick's little bon mot and instructions for living that he previously doled out like candy. Brunch is awesome. When a gay man hands you his phone, look only at what he is showing you.

Bottomless mimosas are not the same as pantless mimosas. Those sort of things. Grant pressed, undeterred. Why not? She's gay. You're gay. You just said. Because that's not how it works.

Steven: Yeah, one of, you know, so here's the thing, you know, writing a sequel, you do want to introduce new, new characters to, you know, people, you know, think about your own lives five years ago, five years from now, there are new people, uh, in them. And one of my favorite lines from the first book was, um, I think Maisie was being a little obstinate at one point and Patrick warns her not to make an enemy of him.

And he says, you can't spell nemesis without me. Yes, and so I wanted to give Patrick a nemesis this time and I thought, you know, a wicked stepmother was too easy. That's too on the nose. And so instead, the children's stepmother to be has a lesbian sister or the children's soon to be Lance. And she is now the apple of their eye in the way that Patrick used to be.

And it drives him mad, nuts. So that's that was quite a fun new addition to the to the cast. I was listening to you read them. I also read the audio. I've read the audiobooks for both the gunkle and the gunkle abroad and in the first book Grant has a Lisp the younger boy has a list which I thought was so genius on the page because I'm like I'm not gonna have to tag every piece of dialogue.

I don't have to write. He said she said Grant said Maisie said it'll be clear Which child is talking and then it came time to narrate the audio book and I was like, son of a bitch, why did I do this? Why did I do this? So, you know, and then I think I'm, once again, I think I'm so smart. Page one of the gungle abroad, you know, Grant has outgrown his list, but I was like, okay, there we go.

But then I realized all the new characters in this book are Italian. So, you know, do some, like, high school drama department level Italian, uh, italian accents for this new one. Oh, my gosh. 

Zibby: Well, I know you said you wanted to see how the sales were going before writing, uh, finishing some sort of trilogy.

Have you been inspired by becoming an instant, you know, say, bestseller and do, will, will you then add to it or are you writing something else? What are you up to?

Steven: I don't know. I think I, I think what really helped me with this book was the time jump and dropping in on these characters instead of I think it's, you know, in terms of recapturing the magic, I think it would have been hard to just pick up exactly where we left off that because, you know, I want to again use these characters to say something about either the world that we live in or, you know, about about growing up or or whatnot.

And so So I, if I do revisit again, don't be surprised if there's a little time jump again and to help with that, I think it wouldn't, it won't be the next book that I write, probably, but I wouldn't be surprise. Although if I'm back on your, if I'm back on your podcast talking about the gunkle in space or something, you have to, you like, you have to have an intervention.

You have to stop me. 

Zibby: If you write about the gunkle in space and I'm just still sitting here in the same spot in my same chair, I don't know. We're going to have to like. 

Steven: Beaming in from the International Space Station. 

Zibby: Yeah, exactly.

Oh, okay. So what advice do you have for aspiring authors? 

Steven: Oh, goodness. You know, I'm someone who was always very jealous, you know, someone who came out of a prestigious writing program, you know, Iowa, for instance, and, you know, and sold their first book at 25. And, you know, it was off to the races. That was not my publishing journey.

I didn't publish till I was well into my 40s. And so, What I want to say more than anything is, is stick with it. You know, there were moments when it felt like I was the last person who hadn't given up on me. You know, others were like, well, what about law school? You think you sure like not law school? And I just, I don't know where it came from.

But I had this inner confidence that I, that writing was something I needed to do. And so I'm happy I stuck with it. And for me, who I consider myself, more self taught because I didn't formally study creative writing, although I did, um, you know, in college, a lot of critical writing, but I was always, you know, in the years I was like trying to break through, I was always very apologetic about calling myself a writer, you know, and I wish now that I had the confidence to say, oh, no, I'm a writer, even though I held down different day jobs and I was earning my income in different ways and paying the bills in different ways, I wish, you know, if you, what I want to say to aspiring writer, if you, if you are writing, you are a writer.

And you can say that proudly and with confidence, and it doesn't matter where your income comes from. If you sit down and are putting in the work, you know, you are a writer and stick with it. And you know, eventually good things can happen. 

Zibby: Amazing. Wow. Well, Stephen, thank you so much and I'm so excited.

You're Going to be with Byron on the retreat in Palm Springs in the fall. I'll see you in September. 

Steven: We will see you in September. It's going to be warm still, I think, so pack light. 

Zibby: Yeah, I heard. 

Steven: That's all right. It's just plenty of room in the suitcase for books. 

Zibby: Yeah, exactly. 

Steven: I'll open up the caftan closet for you.

Zibby: Great. 

Steven: We'll have fun. 

Zibby: Perfect. 

Steven: We'll have a lot of fun. 

Zibby: All right. Well, thank you so much. And I really loved it. And thank you. And oh my gosh. It's, it just really, it just hit home. I don't know. Thank you. 

Steven: Yay. It's always fun to talk to you. 

Zibby: You too. Okay. Bye bye. 

Steven: Bye.