Zibby’s December Book Club Pick! New York Times bestselling author Sophie Cousens returns to the podcast to discuss IS SHE REALLY GOING OUT WITH HIM?, an enchanting, witty, laugh-out-loud funny enemies-to-lovers romance about a disillusioned divorcée who agrees to let her children play matchmaker—all of which she will write about in her column at work. Sophie delves into her protagonist’s hilarious misadventures as a 38-year-old single mom in the dating scene. She and Zibby discuss the importance of featuring mature and relatable protagonists in romance and then touch on modern dating and career reinvention. Sophie also shares her writing process and the challenge of balancing parenting with her career.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome back, Sophie, to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

So delighted to have you here again for your latest book, which I am obsessed with. So tell us... 

Sophie: oh, thank you for having me on. It's such a, such an honor. Thank you. 

Zibby: Okay. Tell us everything about the book. When did you come up with this idea? Tell us the plot. Tell everything. Readers have to know. 

Sophie: So it's called, Is She Really Going Out With Him?

And it is about a woman called Anna Appleby, who is a journalist, who is divorced, and she's not really feeling like she wants to get married. Put herself back out there again. She's never internet dated and when she dabbles with it, she just hates it but she finds herself in a position where she needs to pitch a dating column for work.

Otherwise, she's her job's going to be on the line So she comes up with a fresh angle, which is that she's going to let her kids choose her dates for her. Her sister sort of jokingly says, I bet your kids know you better than the online algorithm. And that's where the sort of idea is born. So she ends up kind of going on dates picked by her children.

And obviously her children don't have like a huge range of people to choose from. So it ends up being the divorced dad from school gates or, you know, the swimming coach or something. And it's really about a divorcee who is reluctant to get back into the dating pool who finds herself dragged back in and yeah, maybe she'll find love along the way.

Zibby: It is so funny, Sophie. It's funny and heartwarming, and the way you write the kids is so great. Ethan and, what's the other kid's name? 

Sophie: Jess. 

Zibby: Jess and Ethan are so adorable. The everyday life scenes in particular I found just so real, relatable, like what it's like balancing stress at work and the kids and involving them in everything but not too much and where do you draw the line and the ex husband, I mean it's just, it was so on point.

Sophie: I mean, this is, this is something that I was really excited about with this book because I think if you're writing about younger protagonists who don't have any, you know, baggage in inverted commas, it's much simpler in a way because you're just looking for the right person and you're looking for love and waiting for them to turn up.

And I think what I loved about this book is that actually when you do have a family and you have other responsibilities and you have a lot of feelings about other people x. I mean, she's over him, but it's still complicated. It's not just a cut and dry right on with the next part of my life. Um, and I, so I found coming at a love story from that angle of complexity, really, really interesting.

Yeah. And a lot of my kind of friends and contemporaries are going through this now and I think that, um, I think it's, yeah, I think it's really interesting. 

Zibby: I also found the choice of candidates for the dating quite amusing and all the crazy situations, the, the fishing, can you share a little bit more about the fishing date?

Because I think that was my favorite with the hook. Oh my god, I was laughing out loud. 

Sophie: Yes, so obviously she sort of tells her children, right, you can pick dates. And it's funny, like when you ask her, her daughter is 12 and her son is seven. And, you know, when you ask them the criteria by which they might pick people, it's very different to, you know, when she asked her colleagues at work, they're like, you know, are you into the gym?

Are you into yoga? And all these criteria that the algorithms want you to know. And the kids are like. Oh, you should go out with Tilly's dad at school because he hates bikes and you hate bikes. And that's the kind of beginning of, okay, right. That's the reason enough to, to go on a date. And also the kids get to pick where they go.

They think it's really boring that their, um, mom or adults generally just go to the pub for a drink and how boring is that? Uh, so they decide they should go fishing, but yeah, she ends up. Going on a fishing date and there's, let's just put it and say there's like a little bit of a physical accident with the hook, which, uh, ruins any potential romance right there and then.

Zibby: I also love the younger waiter from the restaurant and how they go to this party and she's so much older and waking up and trying to, you know, put her best face forward with her kids and her ex the next morning and her colleague. I mean, it's just so funny. I don't know. 

Sophie: I mean, I have to say one of my very good friends who has been divorced recently, and she's, there's a lot of anecdotes that have happened in her life, which she tells me.

And then I did have to send her the draft of this. And I was like, there's a few things in here that you might recognize. I just want to check that you're happy that they've got in my book. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. Well, now that that answers the question as to where all this, all this comes from, I just love it. I also love the stress at work.

Piece of it as well and having to sort of keep up with the times and that even though what you're doing is resonating, it's like not enough, right? You have to continually reinvent and keep up. And it's like, why? Why? If it's, if it's working, like, why do I have to do all this stuff differently? Like, tell me a little bit about that and the changing column and the shifting tides at work and all of that.

Sophie: Yeah. So I know he's a journalist and she's a good journalist. I think, you know, you get that impression when you read the book, but she sort of, she works hard and she knows her stuff, but there's this sort of, you know, shift at work where there's new management coming in and they're kind of cleaning house.

And there's this real pressure to sort of be more vulnerable and be more yourself and sort of put your heart on the line and share your soul. And, you know, her new boss sort of cites it as like, The reason the next generation love TikTok is because people are, you know, literally baring their souls and sort of telling it how it is.

And for Anna, who's sort of 38, she's not that comfortable with the idea. And she sort of thinks, can't I just do my job and be good and put the work in? And I think that's a really interesting kind of conflict, especially, I mean, I even find that a little bit in writing, especially when you're thinking about Oh, how can I promote my book?

And you could do articles and you see people do very very personal articles about their own story in their own life and how it relates to their writing and but then you sort of slightly feel like well, do I have to be? Do I do I have to completely? Open my heart and my life when it's not an autobiographical book It's got elements of me an element of my life and what I find funny But yeah, it's a hard balance as an author.

I don't know if you find this too 

Zibby: Yeah, I mean I feel very comfortable being open, but I also don't, I'm very aware of like where my limits are. Like I don't write about my kids and this and that and like I have parts that I feel comfortable with. But, you know, you have to sort of create your own compass and sort of stick by that and not be.

exhibitionist in a way, right? I mean, I feel like you can tell when people are writing things almost for shock value or something, right? But you have to just write what you would tell a friend, I think. 

Sophie: Yes. And also I think, I think these kinds of books where you're writing about sort of relationships and love and friendship, obviously so much of that has come out of, you know, my own experiences of those things.

But equally, sometimes I think When you see writers, you know, doing a publicity article that's all about, you know, their anxiety or their, um, their own love life or something and you think, Would a male author be doing that necessarily? I don't know if they would. Would they be asked to say, Oh, how did your, how did your relationship relate to this book that you've just written?

I don't know. Maybe they wouldn't. 

Zibby: On the other hand, that's basically what I do with this entire podcast. It's like, I mean, like, I am, like, endlessly fascinated by the story behind the story. So I can't say that I'm not a consumer, an avid consumer of those types of essays and conversations. Because I think ...

Sophie: I just feel like I don't, I'm, I'm not interesting enough.

Like I said, I'm just saying, Oh, you know, I've written this book and I, you know, and I love it. And I love the story and the characters, but I don't have a sort of. Yeah, like I, I don't have a big story behind it or it didn't happen to me or so maybe that's just my own feelings of inadequacy of not having the right, right background.

Zibby: No, I mean, like you have to do what you feel comfortable with. I think a lot of fiction, purely fiction authors versus people who write memoir and fiction or I think a lot of novelists have trouble with the personal essay. With an on demand personal essay when that is not their genre that they feel comfortable with, right?

It's like, it would be like asking like a non fiction writer to just be like, Oh, I'm gonna try to help sell my book by writing a short story. You'd be like, what? That's not what I do. So. 

Sophie: I think though that the one I, my husband reads my books at different stages of kind of, you know, sometimes he reads first drafts, sometimes he doesn't read them until they're published.

But he read this one just last week and he loves it and says it's his favorite because he actually really likes the slightly older protagonist because he sort of said, Oh no, I don't really like reading about, you know, in your love life of 25 year old, 26 year olds, and actually writing about a 38 year old.

Suddenly he was interested and it was much more relatable to him. So that was interesting. 

Zibby: That is interesting. Although I feel like in the good part, we got to see even though she was sort of, you know, psychologically young, she was inhabiting a life of someone a little bit older. 

Sophie: Yeah. And actually this is slightly where that book came from because I so enjoyed writing that sort of older protagonist and that sort of, you know, in the, in the good part, she jumps forward from 26 to 40, 42.

And it's that again, it's like finding your love life. in amongst the chaos of your existence and all the other things you have to grapple with in your career and your kids and keeping the house working. And I enjoyed that so much I thought, Oh, let's do that. Let's do that kind of age bracket again. Yeah.

Zibby: Interesting. I'm writing my second novel now and I was reading it out loud to my husband and in it, I said some comment like, like the mother is saying young lady to the protagonist and she's like, Oh my gosh, I'm 47. When is my mother ever going to stop calling me young lady? And my husband is like, I think like 44 would sound better, and I'm 47.

And I was like, it does sound better, doesn't it? 

Sophie: You're shifting it. You're shifting it down. Just, uh, yeah. 

Zibby: I don't know. I guess I'm going to go down to 45. He's like, I think 44. I'm like, I'm not doing that. Like, that's not how old I am. But anyway, anyway, I don't know. I, I, I, so 38 is not you know, you're still, still on the younger end of, in the middle of it.

Sophie: True. And I was talking to other authors about this who write slightly older protagonists, and we were talking about kind of like where is that sweet spot where it's kind of older and more mature, but you're not going to losing a younger or younger readers. And I actually think it's getting older and older, which is, which is really heartening because I think actually what people perceive is kind of old in inverted commas is really shifting all the time and you know, we get older I don't feel oh, I'm like an old person in my mid 40s and I like hopefully that just carries on going and going. 

Zibby: I said that to my son yesterday.

He was talking about something about being old or whatever and I was like, you know I I don't feel old and he's like, but that's what all old people say 

Sophie: Yes, exactly. That's true. That's true. If you even ask my parents, do you feel old yet? My mom in her mid 70s would say no, mid age. 

Zibby: Yeah, exactly. Well, well, I love that you have chosen to age up your characters and also you have such a following, right?

And they're all getting, I mean, not that you don't have younger women always discovering you and all that, but I feel you have a beloved, devoted following who is aging along with your writing. 

Sophie: Yes. And I also think that sort of as a, as a romcom writer and you're kind of looking, what's, what's funny, what's funny about dating and what's funny about love.

And again, like the more experiences you have and the more, it's not just, I guess it's not just my life. It's my friends and talking to them about, You know, second marriages or still being single in your 40s and what the dating scene is like when you're still doing internet dating 30 years later. And all of that just sort of feeds in, I suppose, to the creative part of what you're interested to write about.

And also there's a degree of If I was to write like a 22 year old heroine now, I know my kind of cultural references and lingo, I, I just be nervous. I'd have to get like a sensitivity reader to check, but it wasn't completely off point. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. Well, I have to say your scene and I won't, you know, give anything away, but the scene between the windows.

was very hot. I don't know where that came from, but very interesting and awesome. 

Sophie: Oh, good. Well, this is another thing. Actually, this book, I would say, for anyone who's read any of my other books, this is like my most, like, trope y book, and it's my most, kind of, classic rom com, I would say, in terms of there's a lot of the main couple on the page together and it's a little it is a little bit spicier than it's still closed door technically but there is definitely a little bit more on the page than there has been in previous books and again I think I have come to know and love a lot of tropes through reading more romance and the kind of only one bed and enemies to lovers and all of that and I think for me, this book was a bit of a, let's chuck all of that in and have fun with it.

But yeah, the scene by the window was a kind of, I think some of the sexiest moments are often sort of imagined or there's a sort of barrier to them rather, you know, it's all about the kind of, oh, how far is this going to go? Is this happening? Like that is often what makes it so hot in my mind. But yeah, everyone who's read that scene has said, Oh my god, I love that scene.

Uh, I don't know where it came from. I don't know where it came from. That's obviously one of my fantasies.

Zibby: So how are you, how and when are you writing all of your books? How are you getting it done? How are you translating the inspiration to words and like when, how are you doing it all? 

Sophie: Well, I do, so I have two children who are eight and six and I, but I, when they were at school, I, it's basically my full time job I'm writing. But I'm also doing screenwriting as well now. Cause I have adapted my first book and I have also started adapting my second and third book, which is really exciting. But in terms of time, it really does sort of compete, you know, cause you've got to write a book and then screenplay and the screen, the timeframe on screenplays as well.

You know, it might happen immediately. It might get stuck in development for years. So it's really hard to prioritize kind of. What to work on sometimes. And I will say that I'm a really bad procrastinator and I've got real issues with getting distracted. And sometimes I look back, maybe with rose tinted glasses to when I wrote this time next year, and I actually had a day job and I wrote the whole thing in the evenings around, you know, when the kids went to bed and I imagine it was quite hard, but when I look back, it seemed like a simpler time, I don't know.

It was just sort of, I had this window once the children went bad, I wrote then. And actually now I have the whole, the whole school day, really, and a few clubs around the edges. Sometimes I am my own worst enemy because I just do get distracted and then have a mad panic in the last three months before it's in.

But then actually I'm fuelled by that panic. So I think that's like also a bad trait to have learned, where the kind of panic of a deadline is what gives you your kind of creative surges. It's not a very healthy way to live. I don't know about you, if you have that too. 

Zibby: Well, you're making me feel much better.

I had a week without the kids when they were with my ex and I was like, Oh, I have all the time in the world to write. I'm going to be so productive, but it doesn't work like that. It's like when I have the kids, I know I only have from here to here to write. And so I have to do it. So somehow it's easier?

I don't know. 

Sophie: Totally. And you have, you fill the time you have. And I, I always ask authors about their sort of writing routine and what they do. And I spoke, was speaking to an author in Jersey and he was saying, his routine. It says, you know, he goes for a dog walk and then he plays tennis and then he does an hour and a half of editing and then he, you know, has lunch and then he kind of has a martini and starts writing between like 4:30 and 6:30 and that's like, that's what he does. And like the discipline of just, and that's when he does it, and there's no distraction and there's, and I just thought, oh god, if I could do that, I could write about four books a year. If I could be that sort of focused and dedicated and, but Instagram is not my friend in this, uh, in this, in this world.

Zibby: Well, it's also hard. You can't just be, you can't just produce words. There's so much more associated, I mean, you have to do so much more to be a writer than just write. 

Sophie: Exactly. Yes. And I also, I don't know that writers often fall into camps of either someone who plans their novel or doesn't plan their novel.

And I'm really bad at planning because I, for me, you know, every, all the funniest things that happen in. Um, is she really going out with him? Are things that just sort of, as I'm writing, I'm thinking, Oh, what could be the worst thing that would happen on a date? Or, you know, there's a scene where, the character worries she has nits when she's on a date and again like that's just such a like mum concern that would like you know all of our children have had like nice lice and nits and it's just so disgusting and like that for me married with the idea of going on a date with someone you're actually really fantasy is just like, The worst situation.

But again, if I'd sat down with a blank piece of paper and tried to plot out kind of everyday idea that would be funny chapter by chapter, I just don't think I could. So for me, a lot of the magic is stuff that just sort of comes to me. But equally, I do think that's a harder way to write a book because it ends up having to find your way and your first draft is almost like your plan.

And sometimes it means whole chapters get dropped and not used. So I kind of wish I could. I could be a bit more of a planner. I think it would be more efficient. But then sometimes, you know, writing is, is, it's not like, I don't know what an efficient job would be, but yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a kind of a je that you can't put your finger on about where creativity strikes.

Zibby: Yes. Oh my gosh. Wait, tell me more about the, the adaptations. 

Sophie: Yes, so This Time Next Year, uh, is the adaptation of my first book and it is, has been released in the UK already. I'm hoping it's coming to the UK In the autumn, but I'm waiting to hear about distributors, but it's got an amazing cast It's got lucy and lava scouts from emily in paris Uh sophie cookson from kingsman and they're playing minnie and quinn And then it's got this also amazing secondary class.

There's Secondary cast gold, R from um, Bridgeton and John Hannah, who's one of my personal heroes, and Monica Dolan, who's like a award BA award-winning actress. So it's this incredible cast and I wrote the screenplay. And seeing it all come to life was just, um, crazy and I put myself in it as an extra as well.

So that was my little Hitchcock moment where I pop up in a bright pink dress. And if you know what I look like, you can find me in the film. 

Zibby: Oh, that's so exciting. I'm so happy for you. That's just awesome. I can't wait to watch it. 

Sophie: And yeah, thank you. And I, yeah, I'm hoping as soon as there's news on kind of distributors and when it's going to be out in the US, I will, I will post it on my Instagram, but it's also one of these things that you see from being involved in the movie process.

So many books are optioned and written and it's such a, there's such a long chain of yeah. Things that need to happen to get something made and it's, it's, it's usually not even about necessarily the enthusiasm or the quality of the project. It's just sort of having the dominoes line up to get the director and get the funding and get the stars.

And in this case, you know, the stars aligned and it all happened relatively quickly. So it was very exciting, but now I've really got the, you know, I've got the bug of being a screenwriter. So I, yeah, I, I just want to write. Even more movies and do more and adapt more books and do things from scratch and um, I need to clone myself.

Zibby: I love that. So fun. So how often are you writing books then? Like how often, are you on a schedule? Like does your publisher say like, we want a book from you every X months? 

Sophie: Yes, so I'm writing a book a year, so I am literally finishing the proofread for this book this week and then starting another book next week.

Oh, yes, which is sometimes challenging and sometimes you just want a little time just to sort of sit with an idea and go for long walks and, and also some, some of my books have just dropped into my head fully formed on a walk and I'll just sort of. I remember Just Haven't Met You Yet, which is about a girl who picks up the wrong suitcase from the airport and falls in love with the contents, and that just dropped into my head.

So did the good part. But other books just take a little bit of developing and they evolve into something that they weren't originally, and they take a little bit longer. And, and again, I wish one could control the creative process a bit easy, more easily, but some, you have no, the muses need to play, and you don't often know when they're going to.

Zibby: Very true. Well, still, I think a book a year is, it's just so impressive. I mean, it's like a constant, you know, you just have to keep going. It's just amazing. 

Sophie: Yeah, and I do, talking about the kind of, you know, obviously this is, mums don't have time to read, and I, there are things that fall down the wayside.

Like, I don't read nearly as much as I would like to. I often, I'm not a very fast reader and I do feel like I have this huge list of books that I want to read both in my genre and and other genres and actually when I do get a moment to read I remember, oh god I love, I love reading and this is why I do this and it's very nourishing as well and kind of makes me see what I like about books and what I like about writing styles and You know, and also with young children, you know, you constantly have mum guilt that, you know, you're missing a sports day or something because you have a deadline or you, you know, putting them in a camp over the summer.

And, you know, You know, on one hand, I want them to see me doing what I love and having a career and working hard. But then you also feel like this is such a short period of time. And already my eight year old, I see her kind of becoming a tweenager, kind of saying she wants to hang out with her friends.

She doesn't want to hang out with me. And it's really, yeah, you feel, you it's really hard to feel like you've got the perfect balance and that you're definitely nailing it. And who, I don't know who is. 

Zibby: Yeah. I feel the same way. I'm like, am I missing too much? Am I, I don't know, would I, if I could go back, would I do it differently?

I don't know. I don't know. The past five years have gone by in so fast. I don't know. Just like, whoosh, gone. 

Sophie: I know. And I saw something someone said the other day that really stuck with, that really stuck with me. It was something on Instagram. And someone said about like slowing down and like taking joy in your life is just telling yourself, like, these are the good days, like, these are the good days.

And like, obviously, you know, bad stuff happens and who knows what's around the corner and there's people have a lot of challenges in their life. But in some respects, especially with children, I really feel that, like, these are the good days. I think I'm going to look back and think, like, Oh, wasn't that nice when they just crawled into bed with you and cuddled up to you and told you stories about that.

Yeah. Cut the animals. So I'm just really trying to hold on to it and also working really hard and feeling the guilt, but hopefully they'll appreciate it. Then they go into school and they say, my mummy's a writer, and they take my book in for their teacher. And you think, oh, that's nice. They're proud of me.

Zibby: Right. And also you're showing them how to do it. Like, you know, they'll have to contend with all this as well as parents, maybe, you know, when they have kids and, you know, it's not perfect, but at least we're, at least there's a model, right? At least there's a, I don't know. 

Sophie: Exactly. Exactly. And my daughter is always, you know, she's already got a book that she's written and she's like, well, can you just get it published by me?

Because you've done loads, so it must be really easy. I'm trying to explain to her that it's actually, it's not, it's not that easy. Um, I can't necessarily have her book in print by the end of the week, but. Who knows, she might be outselling me in a few years. 

Zibby: I feel that way about my kids, too. We're writing one thing together and my daughter's like, well, obviously my name has to come first in this thing.

And I'm like, oh my gosh, here we go. You know? Anyway. 

Sophie: Yes, exactly. I've gotten, we've got a little idea for a children's book that I would love to write with my daughter. And again, as soon as, you know, as soon as time slows down a little bit, um, I would love to do something like that, like a collaboration or, you know, I just, I've got so many, so many ideas for the things I could, I could do.

Other genres to write, all sorts of things. 

Zibby: Well, at least with the collaborations for me, at least like that falls in my kid time, not in my work time. 

Sophie: Yes, exactly. 

Zibby: So that we can do for fun. That's not, you know, while they're at school, you know, so it's like sanctioned or something when, when, exactly when, when, when, oh my gosh.

Okay. So last question, what advice do you have for aspiring authors? Just getting going. 

Sophie: My advice for aspiring authors would be just put some time aside every week that is absolutely non negotiable because I think life, everyone is so busy. There's always something else to do. There's, there isn't the magical time and the magical muse are not going to show up at the same time.

So just, even if it's just one morning, you get up an hour before work, or even if it's like one Saturday, you block out a morning, just have something in the diary that is when you write and Not only will you get better, but you will eventually finish a draft of a short story or a book or whatever you're trying to do.

And I think that discipline is also really good practice to, to get in your day and also listen to podcasts. This is the amazing thing. There are so many great podcasts. Like this one where you hear from authors, but also just sort of technical ones on how to write and how to pitch and you know when I was starting out in my twenties trying to be a writer, there wasn't any of that stuff and you were kind of, I didn't know anyone in publishing or how to break in and now it's so accessible and there's so much guidance that's really amazing.

Zibby: Hmm. That's a great point. Okay. Amazing. Sophie, thank you again. I am just obsessed with your book and I was your last books and you know, you're honestly have become one of my favorite authors and, ...

Sophie: oh, that's so kind. 

Zibby: Thank you. I mean it. I really love how you write in all the stories and I'm, I'm a huge fan.

I'm just a huge fan. So. 

Sophie: Thank you!