Totally Booked: LIVE! In this special episode of the podcast (in-person at the Whitby Hotel with a live audience!), Zibby interviews activist and author Shannon Watts about FIRED UP: How to Turn Your Spark into a Flame and Come Alive at Any Age, which chronicles her journey from suburban mom to founder of Moms Demand Action, the nation’s leading grassroots movement for gun safety. Shannon shares how the tragedy at Sandy Hook ignited her activism, the personal cost of taking on the gun lobby, and how she ultimately redefined her own life. Reflecting on her divorce, burnout, and the power of community, she offers a roadmap to help women live more authentically and boldly.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Shannon. Thank you so much. 

Shannon: Thank you. I'm so thrilled to be here. 

Zibby: Fabulous. Okay. Fired Up. Tell us about your book.

Shannon: So I, as you said, led uh, Moms Demand Action for 11 years. I was a full-time volunteer. Before that, I had a career in corporate communications and. At the end of my tenure at Moms Demand Action, I decided to step back After we managed to pass the first federal gun safety legislation in generation, I knew that my tenure would be finite.

I didn't wanna do it forever. I wanted to hand over the baton to someone with new energy and new ideas, and I thought I'd take a year long break. And I was running on a treadmill one night when I got a call from Maria Schreiber. 

Zibby: As we do.. 

Shannon: Yeah. As one does. I did not know Maria. And she said to me, look, I have a book in print. I want you to write a book. And I said, okay, about what? And she said, whatever you've learned about women, which is a lot. And I thought, when will I have this opportunity again? And so I spent the next year writing this book on my own and interviewing over 70 women from all walks of life about their experiences in their life, how they've learned to come alive.

And the reason this was important to me was because. You know, I didn't really figure out what fired me up until I was 41 years old when I started Mom's Demand Action after a failed marriage and a a failed career, and a failure at a dozen small things that I just kept trying over and over again, and, and finally figured out what the formula was and it was mirroring my abilities my values and my desires. And so I talked to these other women about how they did the same thing and the result is Fired Up. And I'm so excited to see women in the audience here today who have followed that same formula and tried all kinds of things in their lives and to kind of come together in community right now with other women and realize that we deserve to burn all the way to the end of our lives.

Zibby: Amazing. So let's back up for a minute starting Moms Demand Action. Take us back to that moment and how that started as a tiny little Facebook group and you were upset one day and went into a yoga or Pilates class and you were like, is everybody not just as upset as me about Parkland? Right. Was it Parkland?

Shannon: Stony Hook. 

Zibby: Stony Hook. I'm so sorry. Uh, about Stony Hook and 

Shannon: Sandy. 

Zibby: Sandy Hook. Oh my gosh. Okay. Sandy Hook. Yeah. I actually am part of like Sandy Hook Promise and.. 

Shannon: Yeah. 

Zibby: Anyway, um, it made You wanna start this? 

Shannon: Yeah. 

Zibby: Talk about that. 

Shannon: So I had taken a five year break from my career in corporate communications. I was blending my new family, five kids, and it was a really cool day in December, I was living in suburban Indianapolis and I saw on the television set that there was, uh, breaking news, that there was a mass shooter inside an elementary school. And like many of you, you know, I sort of sat down, stopped what I was doing and just watched this horrific tragedy unfold and it's unfathomable even today, you know, so many years later that 20 children and six educators were slaughtered in the sanctity of an American elementary school. I went to bed in tears, devastated. I woke up some time during the night that had turned into abject rage and I didn't know what to do with it.

As you said, I was in a yoga teacher training, which if any of you know me, that's hilarious. I would be a horrible yoga teacher, but I, um. I got there and I couldn't believe we were acting like, you know, nothing had happened. And I rolled up my yoga mat and I got in my car and I went home and I opened my laptop on the kitchen counter and started a Facebook page, which was, Facebook was a very big deal with middle aged women in 2012, and it was a clarion call to action, which was when will women and mothers rise up against the most powerful, wealthy special address that's ever existed, one that is killing our children. And obviously that resonated with women all across the country and they began emailing.

I mean, if you know anything about type A women, right? Like they were emailing and, and calling me and DMing me and, and asking how do I do this where I live? And that was the, the genesis of becoming an organizer, even though I knew little to nothing about gun violence, the legislative process or organizing.

Zibby: And interestingly, it was Cheryl Sandberg who convinced you to keep going. This one phone call. It was hanging in the balance, and she called and it set your path forward. 

Shannon: Yeah. You know, I, I had calls from, from people like Cheryl and others who said to me, you don't have to do this. But we need someone to do this.

And it kind of took the pressure off me because, you know, I went from being able to do what I wanted in my life, driving my kids to soccer practice, um, making dinner to being busier than I had ever been in my professional career. I would wake up in the morning and go to bed at night with nothing else but working on this.

It was like a startup, and it was, it was that pace really for 11 years. Um, but the fact that I was given an, the option to do it. Instead of sort of feeling like I was forced to do it really helped put that in perspective for me. 

Zibby: And it came with some risks. You talk in the book about the deluge of threats and stalker and the crazy van like outside your house and having to go to the police and really having to say to yourself like, is this worth the risk and what can I do about this? And then even after you reported some of these things, the police and even people you know, were like, well, that's what you get for standing up against this gun makers in a big industry. 

Shannon: Yes. You know, they say there's a fine line between, uh, naivete and stupidity.

I was definitely straddling that line because I had no idea there would be this backlash. I really didn't know that there was sort of this. Very vocal minority of gun extremists who would be so outraged that I was trying to restore the responsibilities that should go along with gun rights, not eradicate the second amendment or ban guns, but simply restore those responsibilities.

Um, you know, threats of death, sexual violence to me, to my children. As you said, I called the local police because there was someone driving by my home, um, and putting things in my mailbox, and that officer said, well, ma'am, that's what you get when you mess with the Second Amendment. And so I had to make a decision in that moment as many of our volunteers have along the way, which is to say, okay, am I gonna back down or am I gonna double down?

And I think that's a metaphor for the book too, right? That, that so many times in our life, all throughout our life, we're gonna be given that choice to back down or to double down. And as women, that blowback is fierce and we are expected to back down and I double down. And I think that that, that it is an important safety valve for women to take and to see that they can get through the messy metal and come out the other side.

Zibby: But what did you do in that moment to make yourself feel safe enough to keep going? 

Shannon: Well, I happen to be very ignatious, and I am, my husband says I'm like a gremlin, and if you feed me after midnight, you know, it's like the anger comes out. I did not wanna be silenced or intimidated. Right. I realized that if I lose my children, I have nothing left to lose.

So only bad things could happen if I refuse to move forward. Not just to me, but to people all over the country and that was the, that was the right choice. And it's not always easy. I'm, I'm not trying to be flippant, you know, there have been plenty of times when I was scared or when I was overwhelmed, but thanks to this community, and I talk about this in the book too, you know, I call it a bonfire.

All of these other women who supported me and gave me comfort and security and told me I could do this. And and did that to one another as well. I mean, that's sort of the key of practicing this way of life, right? To have this community of supportive women that you can rely on. 

Zibby: Well, thank you from everyone in the world and as a mother of four particularly, thank you for using your whole platform. Your whole, whole heart, all of your time to stand up for what should be something that we take for granted, safety when you go to school. So thank you for that. For all those years of service, that's like, it's amazing. Now let's talk about your personal life, which I'm very excited about. Uh, you open the book in a doctor's waiting office where you're having a terrible eczema outbreak, and you realize, the doctor says, do you have any stress in your life?

And you're like, how much time do you have? And you like, weren't kidding at all, and you had a face off and all of that. Uh, but you realized shortly thereafter that your body was really responding to the fact that you just like. Didn't love your life. 

Shannon: Yeah. 

Zibby: You weren't happy. And then you got to the point where you're like, I might not love my husband.

Mm-hmm. Tell me about that moment. 

Shannon: So, I married right out of college. Uh, my parents had a horrible divorce. I was an only child and I think I was looking to create another family and I had three children. By the time I was 30, I just sort of was on autopilot. I had hoped to be an investigative journalist, but to pay the bills, I went into public relations and I had married a person that I wouldn't have married if I had waited until I was 30 years old and my brain was fully developed.

And um, I started journaling after the doctor's appointment you mentioned where I had sort of a mini nervous breakdown in his office and realized I was at a crossroads. That I had made some bad choices and I either was going to keep living the way I was or I was going to undo those things, even if it came a great suffering to me.

And I did eventually follow my journal's advice, which sort of put a roadmap forward for what I should do. I, I ended my marriage. We ended up being good friends and, and co-parents. I left my career. Um, and all of that was setting the stage for being able to start Moms Demand Action, right? I had the time and space to start asking myself, what do I want?

And imagine if women lived that way. If we asked ourselves what we wanted. So often women are taught to fulfill their obligations and men are encouraged to follow their desires. What would happen if women asked what they wanted? The, the society, the system is set up to prevent us from doing that. Because systems would fail, governments would topple, family systems would fall apart.

But it's why also the most common deathbed regret is that I didn't live a life that was authentic to me. And I began to create this formula and to put it into motion and to be able to start Moms Demand Action and to marry the love of my life. Um, and you know, I, I think it's really important to remember also that.

Every fire we start, it doesn't have to be as big as starting moms to be in action. It might be having a tough conversation. It might be going to therapy. Um, it might be personal or professional or political, but whatever it is, I really want this book to encourage women to constantly be asking themselves, what is my unique formula for living on fire?

Right? Figuring out what is holding you back and what is calling you, but also how do I get to the end of my life and make sure that I burned. 

Zibby: So I had, I actually had something similar where I got divorced at 40. I started this. I'm now married to the love of my life. I feel like there might be something with this custody schedule.

I feel like if you want new women business leaders, like just like maybe partner with a divorce lawyer or something because the people who are gonna have the time and energy not to 

Shannon: Yeah. Yeah. 

Zibby: You know, joke too much. But it is really hard when you're in the thick of it and at home with kids or working and balancing kids in life to then be creative and form things.

And so hats off to everyone who does that and has kids full time and all of that. Um, what do you think it is about your break or your having time or just the mental space to be able to be yourself again. And also why did you have the courage or the conviction or whatever to actually decide, okay, I am, I'm switching my life.

I'm, I'm turning a different corner. And I know you write all about this in the book. 

Shannon: Yeah. And I, you know, I don't know that if. It's courage as much as it is just that I had reached the point where this wasn't the way I wanted to live for the rest of my life. And I think we can all identify with, there's something in our life that isn't quite right or there are things that we wanna do, but we're scared to do them.

And. I am very lucky. You know, I always think you're talking about, you're joking about divorce, but like if you have three parents, that is ideal, whether you're divorced or not. Um, you know, it, it really did force both my ex-husband and my husband to step up and to go to the soccer games and to do the driving and to make the dinners.

Um, I haven't cooked a dinner since Mom's Demand Action started and to kind of do their part. You know, one of my very favorite photographs is one of my kids getting an award, a soccer award their junior year of high school, and my ex-husband is on one arm and my husband's on the other. That never would've happened had I continued to be the helicopter parent that I was before Moms Demand Action. You know what's really interesting is that I interviewed, as I said, 70 women for this book, and I asked every one of them, what are you worried your deathbed regret will be? I'm obsessed with this idea of continuing to do things till the end of our life, and these women, almost all of them, said the same thing, which is, I am worried that I am sacrificing the quality of being a mother, like my ability to mother for pursuing what I want.

Have you ever heard a man say that? No. Because we are trained to fulfill our obligations before we follow our desires. I'm on the other side of that chasm now my youngest is 24, and I can promise you none of them say when I, when we look back, oh, I can't believe you didn't make that soccer game in in 2006, or, I can't believe you didn't go to the fifth showing of my Peter Pan play.

What they all say is, I'm so proud of you. I'm so grateful that you did something that lit you up besides just being a mom. For just being our mom. And you set an example for me to be able to do the same thing. So I don't want that to hold women back. This fear of I can't do both because you can't. 

Zibby: So how do women who are thinking or they just know something might be off, they don't know the next step to take. How can they leverage the formula that you outlined in the book to take action in their own lives? 

Shannon: The book is really, uh, a roadmap. One that I followed, one that so many women have followed, and it, and it breaks down all of the steps, but also it has really helpful exercises.

Uh, the first thing I suggest readers do is to get a journal like I did and to begin journaling. There is scientific data. That shows journaling is incredibly helpful. Um, I couldn't afford a therapist. I couldn't confide in my husband, and so I went to journaling and I have never stopped since that. And I, I think it's a, an incredibly useful tool, but also because I think community is so important to figuring out who we are and what we want.

Um, I'm starting Firestarter University, so. For those people who pre-ordered the book, they get enrolled in a year long program that will start in September with guest speakers from the book and really walking through all the components and all of the exercises together. 

Zibby: Yes. Look for that on Instagram.

There's a whole little writeup. It looks amazing. I'm like, I'm signing, I was sign up for a Fire Starter University. Um, so what, how do you though. Go through the things that hold people back. There's fear, there's lack of resources, there's just, there's like a, there could be a million reasons and yet they want to follow.

Shannon: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: Their hearts right. I feel like we all know deep down what is and isn't working in our lives, but yet it's not always so easy to just say, yes, I wanna follow my desire. How can you get past the hurdles? 

Shannon: There's so much conversation and I'm so glad about that there. There's a lot of conversation right now in the zeitgeist about what women are doing, right? All different kinds of podcasts. Julia, Louis DRAs, they're amazing what women can accomplish, especially now in midlife and beyond. What I wanted to get to was the how. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Shannon: Not just the what, how do you get there? And, uh, one woman said to me. I, I wish there was a manual, a handbook for how do you navigate the blowback that you're gonna get as a woman anytime you enter the arena, anytime you do something that people don't like that can be getting a divorce, that can be starting an organization that can be asking for promotion.

And so this includes, this book includes all of the potential, I call them extinguishers. Sticking with a fire metaphor, you know, whether it's perfectionism or fear of failure. Or self-sabotage. You know, there, there's a list in there of and, and examples of women who have experienced these extinguishers and it's also the messy middle because when you take on a new challenge, it's not going to be smooth sailing the whole way through.

I mean, there was so much messy middle in moms demand action and in writing this book. Um, and so really understanding how women navigated that and understanding that it happens to all of us, I think is helpful. And um, the exercises that people can do in the book help you think through, okay, what can I expect as an extinguisher when I pursue this thing I want, and what are my plans for navigating it?

Zibby: And did you have any of those extinguishers or any fears when it came to even writing fired up? 

Shannon: Oh, I mean so many, you know, what would people think? What if it failed? All the things I list in my book, a fear of perfectionism, self-sabotage, everything. Am I good enough? I think that's a question women ask themselves a lot.

I, I meet so many women who have brilliant ideas, or they have incredible desires and wants, and they sort of put them on the back burner because I think we're taught that, that a woman who fails has to disappear. Has to go away. But if the worst thing that fails that that happens is that you fail, you've simply learned more to win the next time.

That's actually our motto at Moms Demand Action. We call it losing forward. Um, and so, you know, I, I had to kind of journal through that and, and to think about what was really, uh, holding me back. Was it something society put in place? Uh, was it something I set up? And I refer to this as as a, um, a women's author writes in the book, it's called C-I-Y-O-O, complicit in your own impression, how are we complicit in buying into what Society tells us is holding us back? And I think examining those things is really 

Zibby: freeing. So aside from launching the book and Fire Starter University and all of that. What else are you fired up about? 

Shannon: Oh, so much. Um, I think there is a moral imperative in this country for women to run for office.

And women only hold about 25% of the 500,000 elected positions in this country. We're only about 5% of Fortune 1000 CEOs. We don't have access to the levers of power that protect us, protect our families, our communities. And so I don't care if it's county coroner or sheriff or school board or city council.

Um, I think we should all be thinking about how we can serve our communities by running for office. 

Zibby: So interesting. You also put something in the book about founder's Complex 

Shannon: Founder Syndrome. 

Zibby: Can you, founder syndrome? Yes. Talk a little bit about that. 

Shannon: Yes. So when I started Moms Demand Action, I got a call from a volunteer who was sort of my right hand woman for many years.

I didn't know her. And um, she had worked in Silicon Valley and we were. Getting up on a call one day and she just said to me, whatever you do, don't get founder syndrome. And I said, of course not. And I had no idea what that was, so I had to Google it. And turns out what it means is that when, when people found organizations, their identity can become so enmeshed in what the organization is that when they eventually leave and that it should be your goal is to always leave at some point that either the organization fails because they're not there, or they burn it all down because they can't stand to have it live without them. And. I wanted to make sure that I was practicing managing, you know, my ego and the finite finiteness of this role from year one.

So every year I would ask myself, is this the year I leave? And it would always be, no, there's legislation that has to pass. Or this hor hor horrible shooting tragedies happened, or I'm really needed, you know, on something else. And it was finally in 2022 when I was standing in the rose garden as President Biden signed the Bipartisan Saver Communities Act, the first federal legislation and generation to pass, um, that I just heard this voice say to me. This is, this is the bookend to your work as the moms to man action leader. And I did, I handed over the baton to a woman with a much different background and experience, and I have, um, uh, a black woman with four children who lives in Washington DC and has experienced gun violence differently than I have.

And I think that's what will help the organization live into perpetuity, right? The new energy and ideas, and now I have all that experience and all those skills and all those interests that I can now move on and take into other fires that I'm going to start in my life. 

Zibby: So you've spoken to so many women.

Do you feel hopeful? Do you feel there's hope that things will change, that gun violence will ebb that, that just in general, are you feeling hope? Are you feeling tired? 

Shannon: I think you can feel both. But I will tell you that I really believe, and, and um, an activist said this, Miriam Cambe said, hope is a discipline.

I do believe it is a practice that you wake up every day and you decide, I'm going to be cynical or I'm gonna be hopeful. It is very easy when you're taking on the gun lobby to be cynical, but I think that can be an excuse for inaction. You know, this idea that I'm gonna sit on the sidelines 'cause nothing gets better and nothing ever does.

And I find that people who think the gun safety activism hasn't changed to be someone who is not involved in it. You know, we passed over 500 good gun laws. Uh, we changed the culture. We helped elect hundreds and hundreds of women to office and, and, and survivors, you know, because we had this great community.

Um, and so I, I just, I think there's so much to be hopeful about politics is cyclical. Everything always changes. But if you give up, you can't win. And so I think to stay hopeful, to find a piece of the work you're passionate about to commit to doing it, um, and to understanding that that's just part of living in a democracy.

Alice Walker said activism is the rent I pay to live on the planet. And I believe that's true. I. Amazing. 

Zibby: Shannon, thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked. Thank you. 

Shannon: Thank you, thank you.