Sarah Mlynowski, RERUN: UPSIDE-DOWN MAGIC and WHATEVER AFTER

Sarah Mlynowski, RERUN: UPSIDE-DOWN MAGIC and WHATEVER AFTER

Zibby chats with New York Times bestselling author Sarah Mlynowski, the creative force behind popular children’s and teen book series like WHATEVER AFTER and UPSIDE-DOWN MAGIC. Sarah shares her journey from adult chick lit to middle-grade magic, her meticulous writing strategy, and how she weaves humor, magic, relatable and empowering characters, and life lessons into her books. She also reflects on the impact of personal experiences on her work, how she balances writing and parenting, and her aspirations to explore different genres and mediums, like picture books and TV adaptations.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome to Sarah! 

Sarah: Thank you for having me. 

Zibby: Um, okay, your bio is insane. It took me 20 minutes to count up all the books you've written on your website. I counted 35. That's right. 

Sarah: That seems about right. 

Zibby: How and when are you writing all of these books? 

Sarah: Um, I mean, I, writing for me is a full time job, so I'm in the office every day from nine to five, and I'm working on books, and I'm writing, and I'm producing, and I've been doing that for probably since the year 2000 now, so that's how I produce so many books.

Okay, so 18 years of 35, so two a year about? Uh, two to three a year. Uh, when I wrote Adult, which is what I started off doing, I was, I started with one book a year. Uh, and then, now that I write for middle grade readers, they're much, much shorter, so I could produce more. So I probably now write between three and four a year.

Zibby: Amazing. 

Sarah: Thank you. 

Zibby: So, um, and on your website, in your FAQs, which were fantastic, so detailed. I was like, I don't even need to ask her anything today, I can just read this website. Um, you say you mostly write from your desk at home because you don't want to be distracted. Does that, is that what you do, or do you?

Sarah: Oh, clearly I need to update my FAQs because I have an office now. I've had an office for the past, um, It's probably a year and a half, um, and it's about 20 blocks from my apartment and I walk there and I, I do like a little bit of a, of a closed door situation so I could focus on the writing. Uh, but so much of my day is not just writing.

It's also, you know, changing my FAQ hopefully or doing promotion stuff. So there's so many different things that I do all day, but I do try to get a certain amount of words written every day. Do you have a word goal? Um, my goal when I'm actually doing the writing, it's probably about 2, 000 words. But I also, I'm a, I'm a heavy outliner.

Uh, so I, before I even start a project, I probably write about a 20 to 30 page outline. Um, and break up the book by chapter by chapter so I know exactly what's going to happen. And that's where I do most of my work. So that when I'm writing the first draft, I'm almost on autopilot. Like I just kind of get in there and I know what's going to happen.

So I never waste time with writer's block because I always know what's going to happen next. 

Zibby: Do you ever have outline block? 

Sarah: Um, No, I don't find outlines that hard. So maybe because I, I divide it up, um, like that I, I really don't. I just get in there and I write, work on the outline and I play with things.

It seems less scary for me when it's just in an outline stage because I know the outline doesn't have to be perfect. At first it has to just be a first draft and then I, you know, first draft of an outline and then I flesh it out. So really I, I, I I, the way I've written so many books is I make really manageable rules for myself.

I never sit down and think, okay, today I have to write a full book. Right. It's always, today I have to work on, you know, a page of the outline and figure out the first three chapters in the book. And then once I've done the whole outline, and I usually send it to my editor to approve it, then I, you know, go in and I'll say, okay, today I'm going to write one chapter of the first draft.

So I really, really set small goals for myself. 

Zibby: That's awesome. Actually, I'm interviewing tomorrow Charles Duhigg who just wrote a book on how to be productive and that's exactly what he says. So more on that later, stay tuned. Um, and when you sit down to write the outline, you already have the general idea of what you want the book to be in your head?

Sarah: Yes, absolutely. So I always have Um, the concept from the beginning. So, for the Whatever After series, I'll figure out, first I'll say, I'll think, you know, what fairy tale am I going to do? What am I going to mess up? And then I usually have a scene in my head, kind of like a set piece of what is, how they twist the story.

So, in this series, um, Abby and her brother Jonah, Um, fall into different fairy tales, and every book they fall into another one, and then they mess it up somehow in some pivotal moment of the story. So in the new one, in Two Peas in a Pod, uh, Abby goes into, uh, the story of Two, of, uh, the Princess and the Pea, and she doesn't know she's in the Princess Pea right away.

And she's offered to, uh, Uh, to sleep, you know, to sleep over at this palace and there are a hundred mattresses and she realizes that she's in that story. But then, of course, when she climbs onto a bed of a hundred mattresses, she cannot fall asleep because she's terrified of rolling over as any human child would be.

So I had that image in my head of just lying in bed on a hundred mattresses, being terrified and not being able to sleep all night. And then, of course, because she can't fall asleep, they think she's the princess the next day. So I always have that one scene. And then I'll go from there. I'll think about, like, also what I want to change in the original fairy tale.

So once I have those two points, I'm able to weave the story together.

Zibby: I love how Jonah was like, uh, Why are you more afraid to fall up high as down low? You never fall out of your bed normally. It's the same set. 

Sarah: Right, right. 

Zibby: And I was like, eh. 

Sarah: True, but I would still be terrified. 

Zibby: No, I love how you have everybody go back.

In time and change things. It's like Bill and Ted's X Men adventure. Like Back to the Future where you're like, no, no. You know, everything, you know. 

Sarah: Yeah, for sure. 

Zibby: Um, so, what's with all the magic in all your books? So, you have, obviously, the Whatever After where you change fairy tales. The Upside Down Magic series, which my son, I couldn't even read your latest book because he grabbed it from my hands.

Aww! He was so excited to read it and like, wouldn't put it down. Um, so, Which, obviously, you know, so many kids are just obsessed with both series, um, in so many different ways. Um, how did you start spinning magic through all these different books? It's like magic is its own character. 

Sarah: Well, you know, it's interesting because my first four books were for adults and they had no magic.

They were very realistic fiction. They were, uh, in the chiclet genre that was back in the 2000s. And, um, and then I had this idea. Uh, for a magic series. I wanted to write about a girl who finds out that her little sister is a witch and that she is not. And I just had that small idea and I thought, oh, you know what, magic is kind of fun if I, especially if I said it in a real world with just a twist of magic.

So that's how I started playing with magic in my writing. And then, Yeah, it's, it's built up. Every book, every series I write has more and more magic. Whatever After is completely in the fairy tale world, so there's tons of magic. And Upside Down Magic is a series set in magic school. So I definitely have increased the magicness of my novels.

But I didn't necessarily set out to do that. It just kind of happened little by little. 

Zibby: Do you think that the characters in Upside Down Magic could sort of take on the Harry Potter comics? 

Sarah: I think Um, I think, I think they would probably lose. And the whole, the whole thing about Outside Now Magic is that the kids are, so it's about a series where, it's a world where everyone gets magic powers when he or she turns ten.

Um, but Nori, the main character, her magic is a little bit wonky, it's upside down. So she's a fluxer, which means she can turn into different animals. But because her magic is wonky, she, instead of turning into a cat, she turns into a kitten with a little bit of dragon in it. So, uh, she's a, her magic is wonky, so she's sent to a school and to be in a class with other kids who also have Upside Down Magic.

So these kids in her class are all a bit wonky. Their magic is all a little bit off. And I think that's what really inspired us to write that, that story. And I say us because I co write that series with two of my good friends who are also novelists. Emily Jenkins and Lauren Myrickal. And we really wanted to write a series where, um, you know, what if you get to go to magic school, but then you discover that your magic is not as great as everyone else's, or it doesn't work in the same way.

And you know, we wanted to write about the kid who has magic, but their magic is not the best. And what does that mean? Um, and so that's really, that's why I think they may have some problems against Harry. 

Zibby: I love the image of, um, One of the boys, like, hitting the roof repeatedly of the school bus because his magic makes him, like, have to fly up or something.

Sarah: Yeah, it's Andres, yeah. 

Zibby: That's funny. Um, so your teen fiction is also amazing. I feel like your Judy Blume meets Sophie Cadillac. 

Sarah: Oh, I love that comparison. 

Zibby: Just talking about. Your voice is like, just super relatable and spot on, um, but you're way out of your teens, no offense. I feel like we're like the same age here.

Um, how do you write so well from that vantage point when you're not in it? Do you go out and talk to teens to pick up on how they sound? What social media do they use? How do you stay relevant with such a hard to please, insular audience? 

Sarah: I do find it more challenging the older I get. I'll be honest, when I started off writing, I was in my 20s and it was much easier to channel that teenage voice.

But I still try. I just try to in my head be still the 17 year old that I was and try to write about those emotions because slang and everything is going to change every year, but angst is angst, um, and the emotions are constant. So that's really what I try to tap into when I'm writing for teens. I do definitely read a lot of social media, um, and just try You know, make sure that I stay current, but you don't want to stay too current when you're writing for teens in terms of the language because that comes in and out.

And I wrote Bras and Broomsticks, my first teen book, over a decade ago, and I remember talking about one song. There's like a Britney Spears song that no one listens to at this point. 

Zibby: Right. 

Sarah: So, I, you know, you have to try to, um, Not be too current in your language or descriptions. 

Zibby: I saw on your website, you're like, you can find me on, you know, not just Twitter and Instagram, but like the things you could find me on, I've never even heard of.

Like, what are these things? How is she on these things? What are they on? 

Sarah: You know, I, I joined MySpace earlier on. That's actually how I met, um, Emily Jenkins and Lauren Markle. They're my two, um, I said now, magic people. We met, uh, on MySpace, on this teen lit group, which I don't even, does MySpace still exist?

I'm not even sure. 

Zibby: I'm not sure. I don't think so. 

Sarah: So that's how we even met. So I think I've always definitely been trying to stay current about what are the new technologies and what teenagers are on. Um, but yeah, you have to try new things. Some things I, I, I, I don't know. love and stick to right away.

Like, I still, you know, I do a lot of, I tweet a lot, and I'm on Instagram a lot, and I'm on Facebook, and some I haven't necessarily figured out. But, I mean, I, I still can't figure out Snapchat fully. I, I know so many teenagers who are on it, but it just doesn't work for me, so I try to just use the ones that I enjoy.

Zibby: Um, my daughter asked me to ask you, how do you name all of your characters? And having pawed through all these books, you have so many different characters. 

Sarah: Have I named anyone the same thing? That's what I always worry about. 

Zibby: Not that I noticed. Not that I was at your rule. 

Sarah: I never do the same twice. I try not to.

At one point, I think it was in the, and Manhattan book, my editor noted that I had another Chloe. Um, and that, and also that all of my, uh, last names ended with ski or, or Berg or something. And I was thinking, oh, I may have been going through my yearbook. I went to a Jewish school, so I always go, go through my yearbook and pick out names and kind of twist them up.

Um, so I definitely try to be aware of that. But, I, let's see, well, whatever after was a funny story because when I came up with the concept, I called it Farrah's Tales. And, uh, her name was Farrah. But then my editor felt that Farrah was, sounded a bit dated and she wanted something a little bit more modern.

So I changed the title of the series to Carrie Tales and her name was Carrie. But depending where you are in the country, you're going to pronounce Carrie differently. So then one of, um, one of the people at Scholastic was named Abby, so I thought, well, what if we call it Abby Ever After? I like the way that sounded.

And that, and her name became Abby. And then we changed the series name to Whatever After, but at that point I was sick of changing her name, so I left it as Abby. And the name Jonah just kind of came to me. I don't remember. Why maybe it was someone's kid or something that I said. Oh, that's a nice name, and I just used it 

Zibby: In two peas in a pod when you rewrite the princess and the pea fairy tale You talked a lot about the qualities you felt like were important in a princess that you didn't want the princess like in the old fairy tale to just be a delicate flower who you can't even sleep on a pea but instead has strength and is also kind and brave and you show these examples of different girls who are all finalists in the contest exhibiting all of these great traits.

Are you trying to take on sort of the Disney princess vibe here and, and show what you think women and princesses ought to be? Is this some sort of big message or was it just fun for that part of that book? 

Sarah: I, I mean, yeah, thank you. It's not even the Disney Princess Five, that's in the original story, the pea, sleeping on the pea and making, um, the..

Zibby: No, I mean your take on the story.

Sarah: Oh, right, right, right, but for me it's my take on just the whole fairy tale world, all the fairy tales. Um, because if you reread the original fairy tales, my characters always fall into the original fairy tales and not The Disney movie, because I don't want Disney to sue me. Um, because I, I always write the, the, that's in public domain.

So my characters always fall into the original fairy tale. And often those, the ending of the original fairy tales, um, are also, are pretty troubling. Like the fact that that's how they found a princess. They wanted to choose a princess based on who was the most delicate is not the message that I want my girls to have.

And that's pretty much the heart of this whole series. Like, when I started writing this, um, I loved fairy tales. I always loved fairy tales. As a kid, I used to fracture fairy tales also. Um, I would tell the story of the princess and the pea, but it would be the princess and the M& M because I was, not a fan of vegetables and I like chocolate, but I always, always loved fairy tales.

But when I had a daughter of my own and I would tell her these stories, um, I wanted to teach her that no, she doesn't have to wait for a prince to come and save her. You know, that's not how she's going to get her happy ending. She has to have agency. She has to be empowered. She has to be the one to make to make the change in her own life.

So that was really the message that I wanted to be in my books. And that's why when Abby falls into these fairy tales, she not only is the one who saves the day. But she also helps the princess realize what she can be on her own. And sometimes the princess gets married. Um, I don't want to give away the endings of all the books.

Okay, don't tell me. In some of the books, you know, she realizes the prince is the right guy for her. And in some cases, she realizes that maybe she should get a job and then earn her own money and then that's how she could move out of her stepmother's attic. Okay. 

Zibby: Um. Tell me more about 10 things we did and probably shouldn't have your teen book, which I thought was just so awesome.

Is this like the modern day forever? Is this like what you're going for? 

Sarah: Um, I, you know what, I think when I write my teen stuff, I just usually have an idea and I just kind of explore it. For 10 things we did, it's about a girl whose parents move away and she moves in with her friend. Um, And that is the story that happened to me pretty much when I was, when I was 17.

My, my mom had remarried and moved to Connecticut, and my sister moved with her, and then my father had also remarried and moved for a job, and I did not want to leave Montreal where I was. So, uh, for 12th grade, I ended up moving into my friend's basement. And, um, you know, we paid her rent, and my friend's mother, traveled a lot and so was gone was in California for pretty much most of the year.

So it was just the two of us in this house, uh, living on our own for the first time. And I had never really done laundry before or my own lodge. I'd never just cooked my own dinner. So suddenly I was living this, um, you know, life, this adult life while still being in the 12th grade. So that really was the heart of the story.

And when I talked, when I first pitched it to my editor, Um, you know, I said it's going to be about the fun parties that she has, and my editor said, Okay, Sarah, but it's not just about the fun parties. What about the feeling of abandonment by your parents? What does it mean when your parents leave and you're left on your own?

Of course there's fun, but there's also the flip side, the dark side of that. So it was a really interesting book for me to write, and I hopefully was able to have show both sides of that. 

Zibby: Do you feel like that whole experience, in addition to just gaining this fantastic book, how do you feel like Did you have to choose your parents?

Like, how did that whole incident in your life affect sort of how you developed your own sense of family, and especially now as a mom? 

Sarah: I mean, it's definitely, it's made family extremely important to me, and I wanted to definitely have one of my own. Um, and I mean, I've been with my husband since we were 17.

We started dating at 17. Yeah. Uh, so he, I actually met him that year that I was, on my own. Um, that's, and he became my family in so many ways because, you know, he, I, his, his family, his parents were still in Montreal and yet they just opened their arms to me. So I, while I was living on my own, I still would go over there for dinners and just feel like I was part of something.

So that was. 

Zibby: So it's like Noah, wasn't it? 

Sarah: A little bit. Yeah. Well, I'm trying to, I wrote that book now. There was no other good one, or the, I don't, I don't want to give anything away. 

Zibby: Okay, don't, don't, don't, don't tell me the answer. Um, So, what is going to be your hit movie from all this time? What do you think?

Sarah: Um, well, Upset on Magic has been optioned by Disney, so, uh, they are developing it right now, hopefully. Um, and, um, I, I don't know, I think my, I think what I'd like to do now in terms of next steps is for me to develop some of these books. I have so many books and so many ideas that I really want to see, well, how do they go on television or features or something like that.

I really want to spend some time focusing on that now in the future. 

Zibby: Do you have one that you can see a main character, you have it all sort of in your head already or are you just I mean, 

Sarah: I could see ten things we did as a TV show, I think.

Zibby: Um, I almost went online to make sure it wasn't. I was like, I feel like I've, have I seen this already?

I hope not. 

Sarah: No. I, uh, I think, I like I See London, I See France. That's another book I wrote about backpacking through Europe and I could see that as a feature. Uh, it's about two girls backpacking and it was a trip that I did when I was 19, I believe. And, um, it was just so much fun and I learned so much about myself.

Awesome. You know, the theme, the theme of being on my own for the first time, I think, is such an important theme in teen literature, so I've written about that in different ways, and I think those make great movies, too. 

Zibby: Um, is there anything you wish you did better? 

Sarah: Ah, so many things. Yes, yes. I, in general, I, um, what's, I, I'm, I always think I could do better, do more than I can. So I'm often late with books. Um, I, I just handed in something yesterday, which was probably due about a month and a half ago. So I'm always late on everything. Um, especially with the books. And sometimes I have to bump books a year because I think, Oh, for sure I could write four books this year, but I can't actually physically write four books this year.

So I had to push back the companion to, I see London, I see France. Um, I sometimes. I, for instance, when I'm invited to speak on television, I get very nervous and usually don't just come up with excuses why I shouldn't do it, when I really should push myself to do that stuff because it's, you know, it's good practice and it's good publicity, but I usually just make up excuses as to why I can't do it.

I shouldn't do that. 

Zibby: Um, in addition to developing more for TV or film, what do you still want to accomplish? 

Sarah: Um I think at some point I'd like to write a picture book as well. Um, I just keep getting younger and younger with my material. Uh, so maybe then I'll be bored books, I'll be writing fantasy novels, I don't know.

But I, I, I would like to write a picture book. At some point I'd like to, um, write some sort of Holocaust story. My grandparents were Holocaust survivors. It's not really my brand. I write kind of female comedy action adventure books, but I think at some point I'd really like to slow down and focus on a different type of story to tell my grandmother's story.

I don't know when that's going to be, but at some point, and then I'd also like to write a book about being a mom. I haven't, I, when I wrote for adults, I was writing about being, you know, the 20 something single woman. Uh, and I would. I'd like to, at some point, write about what it's like to be, maybe, a New York City mom.

Because there's lots of stories in there. I'll think about it. 

Zibby: You can research me. That's great. Uh, what about any kind of advice you have for either writers out there or parents who have kids who want to be writers? 

Sarah: Um, I would say Encourage your kids to read everything. Um, not just one type of book. Of course you want them to read Always reading so you want them focusing on any whatever they love and I wouldn't ever tell them not to read a specific thing but just to make sure that they're exploring all their options I let them try mysteries or If they don't let them try scary books or all different things so they can really figure out what they what they want to do eventually, I would also tell them to keep a journal.

I kept diaries my entire Elementary school life, and I often go back and look through them. Oh, do you have yours too? 

Zibby: My daughter now, like, here, they're all in front of you. Anyway, sadly my, sorry, I'm like, turning around. My daughter, my daughter now, like, has play dates. And she's like, you want to come in and read my mom's diaries?

I'm like, stop. No. 

Sarah: I haven't let my daughter read them yet, but I think I think they'll probably get a kick out of that. How old are your daughters? My daughters are nine and five. So I think, um, definitely keeping journals. I, I always advise that for practicing writing, but also so that they can go back and reread them later on.

And I would say also to work on short stories and then maybe submit them to community journals or school journals. A lot of schools have their own. If they don't, then to talk about starting one. I think sometimes if a school doesn't have that available, um, Then it's up to the student to say it would be great if we had this.

Can I work on it? And I've done that before in high school. We started our own journal and we didn't have creative writing classes in high school So we we petitioned to have one like so we and then we did so I think a lot of it is either seeing if what's available to you and otherwise starting it for yourself 

Zibby: um I have to just ask, what type of name is Malinowski?

Oh! Now that I've checked it like 20 times. 

Sarah: I mean, I guess it's, it's Polish Jewish. Um, so it's pronounced, It's pronounced Mlynowski. Oh, sorry. No, no, no, it's totally fine. I pronounce it differently all the time. It's unclear exactly how it's really pronounced. My father changed it. I feel like as long as everyone makes an attempt to get all the letters in, then I'm cool with it.

Sometimes people come up with different things, like a B in there suddenly, that doesn't exist. 

Zibby: Just one last thing on the Upside Down Magic series, are you, do you have your kids in mind when you're writing these? Do you read them out loud to your kids? Or not, or both, not just Upside Down Magic, but both of these series?

Like, how do you, I mean, we talked about how you get into the teen mind, but getting into that grade school, is it your kids?

Sarah: It's, it was pretty much my voice, I think. I go into my mind. I have a younger sister, not a younger brother, but I do channel that sibling relationship. Um, and I do read them aloud. to Chloe, my older one.

I started reading it to her when she, uh, her first day of kindergarten. I got my page proofs and we were on the train going uptown and I'd just gotten it and I said, do you want to hear it? And it was the first one that she did. And we read it all the way up and then all the way down. And it was the first time I'd ever read my stuff out loud.

And people always say, you should read your stuff out loud. And I never listened, but it is so helpful. I cannot recommend it enough. I found so many things in it. Um, mistakes and changes. Just to have her real time reaction was fascinating. So that was really the first time I did it, so I just marked things up and I changed them and now she reads, I read her all the page proofs.

The page proofs are, um, after, once the book is, has gone to be edited, then it gets designed. It's called the, the format. So it almost looks like pages in a book. And it's easy to read aloud and mark up. The last one, though, she asked when we were running late, and she said, Oh, I'll just take them to school, and I'll mark it up for you.

And that was kind of sad and also cute. I like her little smiley face. 

Zibby: Aww. Yeah. That's so great. Um, that was, that was everything I wanted to know. Yeah, I feel like we speak so quickly. Get it all done. Anyway, thank you so much for chatting with me. And um, just a reminder, this episode was sponsored by Chloe's Fruit, the cool way to eat fruit.

Check them out at chloesfruit. com. And thank you again to Sarah. 

Sarah: My pleasure. Thanks for having me. 

Zibby: Thanks.

Sarah Mlynowski, RERUN: UPSIDE-DOWN MAGIC and WHATEVER AFTER

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