Journalist turned novelist Sarah Harman joins Zibby to discuss her biting, twisty, utterly delightful thriller, ALL THE OTHER MOTHERS HATE ME, which follows a washed-up girl band star turned reluctant mom detective at the center of a missing child investigation. Sarah talks about her unconventional writing process, the challenges of creating an unlikable yet relatable protagonist, and balancing creative ambition and motherhood. She also talks about the pressures of “Plan B” careers, her experience adapting her book for FX, and the eternal question of what it really means to be a “good mom.”

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Sarah. Thanks so much for coming on Totally Booked With Zibby to talk about All The Other Mothers Hate Me. Congratulations. 

Sarah: Oh, thank you for having me. 

Zibby: The title is so perfect and one of the chapters in the scene, you explain why all the other mothers. Hate her. Why don't you jump in and explain both the reason for your title and what your whole book is really about?

Sarah: Okay. I wanna start Zibby by clarifying that this is not a memoir and the other mothers as far where don't actually hate me, Sarah Harmon. This is a story of a washed up girl band singer in her early thirties who suddenly has to become a detective when her beloved 10-year-old son becomes a suspect in his classmates' mysterious disappearance.

And I was really intrigued by the idea of an unlikeable main character. And I think the heroine of this story, Florence Grimes, really fits the bill. She's not your typical PTA mom, she's not even maybe necessarily a good mom. And I think one of the things I wanted to grapple with in the story was like, can you be a bad person and still be a good mom?

I think the jury's still out. 

Zibby: I guess it, I guess the big question is like, what does it even mean to be a good mom? Is it devotion, time spent, attentiveness? What does that even mean? 

Sarah: There's a lot of ways to measure it. 

Zibby: Yeah. I was actually, when you said it wasn't a memoir, I was thinking, would I be more likely to buy a memoir or a novel with this title?

And then I was thinking, no, I think a novel is better because if all the other mothers really hated someone, maybe I shouldn't be like jumping on the bandwagon anyway. It doesn't matter. 

Sarah: I'm now bracing for other mothers I know to be like I hate you, so I, yeah. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Sarah: I'm putting myself out here and boldly claiming they don't actually hate me, but I don't know.

Zibby: Yeah. Maybe we'll see what happens. I'll be staying tuned. So this novel first one, the Lucy Cavendish Prize. When did you write this? Take me back through the timeline of everything. 

Sarah: Okay. 

Zibby: And, okay. 

Sarah: So basic this is what happened. Thank 

Zibby: you. Thank you. Break it down like baby steps here. 

Sarah: I lost my job.

I was in London on a tier two visa and I, I had been an English major at school and I had worked as a journalist and I always had this fantasy that like, I'd love to write a novel, I like, I had small kids and I had a job and I didn't have time. And when I left my job in journalism, I was like, oh my God, I have no excuse not to do this now.

Like I have to just do this thing that I always told myself I would do if only I had enough time. And it was really scary because when you do the thing you've always dreamed of, there's like a chance you might fail and then you've failed at your like plan B that you're holding onto as you're like precious. I could always, and so I ha I basically tried to do everything else before I wrote this novel. Like I was looking at going back to school to become a chartered surveyor, which is like a special kind of British building inspector. And finally I realized like I. If I don't do this, I'm just, I'm never gonna be happy and nothing else is gonna make me happy.

And even if I fail, I wanna try. So this is my try. Putting it out there in the world feels scary, but maybe not as bad as not doing in the first place. 

Zibby: You didn't fail and you won the prize. You had bidding wars for the book. It's now being adapted by FX. I feel like this is pretty much a success.

This is as successful pre-launch as you can pretty much get. 

Sarah: I won't lie. Like I had the full Cinderella experience that you dream about when you like write a debut novel, and I didn't even know that half of this stuff was possible. And it's been wonderful. Yeah, I'm, I just feel so lucky if it doesn't go any further than this, I'm just, I'm thrilled to death. 

Zibby: By contrast, fyi, I wrote my first novel after business school and it did not sell, and that was my plan B and I was like, oh, okay. Now what? 

Sarah: But that's how I felt after I left my job. Like that was my first plan to be a globe trotting journalist. And when that didn't work out, I was also like, oh God, like now what?

And I think it's a feeling also that I tried to bring into the book of, I think a lot of women go through that. Like what happens when Plan A doesn't work out and your life looks nothing like you dreamed it would, and you still have 50 more years probably to be alive and you have to think of something else to do with all of your time.

Zibby: So funny. So your character is a former pop star of Girls Night, and she's so funny because she's a mom who like doesn't wanna get outta bed to take her kid to school and she is doing up to all sorts of antics and bathrooms and parties and, just not squeaky clean by any stretch. 

Sarah: No. 

Zibby: And yet you showcase her mama bear instincts early on when we find out, and I feel like it's not giving anything away since it's I don't know, page 60 or something, but when a child goes missing from the school and all the parents like congregate outside and she is just I'm not waiting to find out if my son, Dylan is okay. I'm going in, which, by the way, I loved my kid's school, did have a lockdown thing and I heard about it and I was like, oh, I'm going and I'm gonna barge in and I don't care. Anyway, it ended up being fine, but I everybody knows those instincts, right?

Where you're just like, yeah, you wanna tell me to stay away from my kid? I don't think so. 

Sarah: Yeah. I think the instinct thing that you said is just exactly the right word. Like it is just instinct and whether you think it's like love or evolutionary biology, like I think it's something that certainly all parents can relate to, but I think anyone who like it doesn't even to be a parent relationship, like the person that you love the most in the world and would do anything for.

When you look at, and the question at the heart of the story is like, how far would you really go for the person you love? What rules are you willing to break to protect them and to make sure that they're okay? And, no spoilers, but like the protagonist of this story goes pretty far. And I think readers are, might have some thoughts about how far she goes.

But it's funny in talking to other mothers, so many of them have said, I would do the same. I don't approve of what she did, but I understand the impulse because she goes a lot further than just storming into the school. 

Zibby: Yes. That was just the beginning. The be beginning of. Yes. Because as you write so in such a funny, like subversive way, it's when you find a journal and like all these clues just keep coming and what do you do with this information and how do you find your way through? Especially when like you're hungover and you're young and because your character's 31, right? This is not like I'm 48. Oh my god, I couldn't even remember it.

And being a young mom versus a se more seasoned mom. Like you forget how young 31 is so young, you're like a baby and yet you have this, all of this responsibility dumped in your lap. Like it's a lot to navigate like your brain is basically just stopped growing yourself.

Sarah: Absolutely. And I think, I think that allows us, I hope to like, give the protagonist some grace because she is, certainly she's younger than me, but I'm, I look back now at the things that I was doing in my twenties and think oh, yikes. That's no good. And I think having to juggle those responsibilities, like whether you're a young mom, an older mom.

More of an auntie type, like people have a lot going on in their lives, like life is a lot and this character is definitely going through it, grappling with her responsibilities and also her own desires and how to meet her own needs while still being a mom. 

Zibby: To which there is no answer. That is a question the un the ever unanswerable question.

Sarah: I don't think it's a spoiler to say this book does not solve that conundrum. 

Zibby: Yeah, no returns, please. Thank you very much. In the book, there's a scene where her mom takes her and her sister to lunch and explains why she's picking them up and dropping them in the UK and into a whole new life. How did you end up in the uk and was that any glimmer into your own life?

Sarah: No. So I I moved to the UK for a job. My employer sponsored my visa. I came here as an adult in 2018, and I love London, and I, even after I left the job, I was like, oh my God, I have to find a way to stay here because I just. I just love this city. Take me out in a body bag. I wanna be here forever.

But I was on a tier two visa, which means like my employer had sponsored it. So it was difficult to find a way to stay in the country. But I think I've managed it now and I actually just took my life in the UK test because I've been here long enough that I'm eligible for British citizenship.

Zibby: Wow. 

Sarah: And it's really difficult, like you have to know so much about. The tutors, the War of the Roses, like things that I certainly, I did not learn in American history. But yeah, I'm in it to win it now. I really love London. 

Zibby: Amazing. That's awesome. When you went to write the book how did you go about it?

You decided this is your plan B, you're gonna just do it. But what happened then? Did you outline this book? Did you just start writing? Like, how did you get this done? 

Sarah: Yeah. I love talking about this because I. I did it the complete wrong way, Zibby, like if I was doing a book now, I would sit down with an idea and come up with an outline and like a writing schedule.

And I did not, I like in a fit of desperation, sat on my floor and wrote the first, I don't know, five or 6,000 words, maybe 10,000 words, and then got to this point where I was like, wait, but how does this all come together? And it's mystery and so I had like characters in a setting and then I had to take a step back and be like, okay, I know the world.

I know what's gonna happen, bold strokes and really plot it out. And I think it's important for readers with a mystery to have, or a thriller, like there has to be a payoff, the end needs to feel satisfying, but also there has to be enough sort of clues that you feel like you've had the opportunity to potentially figure it out.

Yourself as a reader. And so I wanted to be really intentional about that because I don't know about you, but I hate an ambiguous ending. I feel like life is just full of ambiguity and I don't go to literature for ambiguity. Tell me who did it and why and how. Was it Colonel Mustard in the sitting room with the candlestick?

I just wanna know. I did plot it very carefully once I had created the world and I wrote the beginning and then I wrote the end, and then I went back and wrote the middle. And there's a reason that the books don't tell you, yeah, write the beginning and then the end, and then the middle and make your outline halfway through.

But when you're writing your first novel, you are teaching yourself how to do it. And I had to give myself a lot of grace because the perfectionist in me wanted to sit down every day and write the 1000 words that Stephen King told all aspiring writers that we should write per day. And it didn't work out like that for me.

I had small kids and so some days I wrote 50 words. Some days I deleted 200 words, and those were the bad days when you end up with less word count. But I just kept telling myself like, God, if I can keep going and get to 60,000 words at some point, I'll have enough that I can then go back and reshape it.

And I spent a year writing and I wanna say close to a year editing before it was like in any shape to show anyone. And I think that editing phase is really crucial and maybe an area where some writers feel inclined to debut writers, you wanna rush it and you're like, I've worked on this for so long and you wanna share it.

And everyone that I talked to really encouraged me no, take that time, edit it. And I'm so glad that I got that advice because I think it's much better for having percolated for a little longer. 

Zibby: That is good advice. 

Yes. There's this, pressure oh my gosh, I better get it out there. What if somebody has the same idea?

What if the market shifts? What if people don't wanna read thrillers anymore? What if dah? I better just it doesn't matter that I haven't even spell checked. Let me just send it out. 'cause we, sometimes we get submissions like that. 

Sarah: And also you're like, God, I haven't worked in two years.

I need to sell something. Like I need. Yeah. Yeah, that too. There's, it's a job, right? Like I, I felt a lot of pressure to. To make it work, but yeah, you can't rush these things and it just it needs as long as it needs and that's very hard to accept if you're impatient like me.

Zibby: Me too. So when you were writing it or dreaming it up, or even just like sitting on the floor, typing it up and hoping it turned into a book, are there books that you have loved or that you're like, I see this as fitting in with this. Crowd of books that are on my shelf that I'm like obsessed with, or I wanna feel the way I felt when I finished x, y, z book.

Were there any books like that? Oh my God. 

Sarah: Yes, absolutely. I love this question. Okay, so I love Gone Girl, and I realize that's not like an original answer and that's like the most popular book. 

Zibby: Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. 

Sarah: I love that book and I've probably read it five times and I'm just, every time I'm like, it was the first book that made me realize that a thriller can also be like a skating, social commentary.

And I loved how the reveals and yeah, so that book was at the front of my mind, and I also just, I grew up, I'm a millennial reading a lot of like first person women's confessional, like Exo Jane Jezebel type media, and I loved that voice, and so I wanted to try and do like a mystery that was in that voice in the first person very close, which is hard for a mystery because you're really limiting your perspective if you only have one person and I put it in the present tense for some reason, which is just like I was trying to make it difficult for myself, but so I wanted to combine like a character driven mystery with a thriller pacing and reveals. And yeah, I also love sorrow and bliss like that I the way that, so funny.

But it's about such a serious topic. I really admire that. Oh, I'm just, I'm gonna forget things. But yeah, those were two of my favorites that I was thinking of. Like funny character, but also payoff and thriller in the end. 

Zibby: I love that. And by the way, there is no judgment. Nobody ever has to qualify a book that they love or that inspires them or whatever, we all love books. Go Girl did because it was so popular and so good. 

Sarah: 'cause it was awesome. And yeah, and Jillian is the master and I just feel yeah, it's become cooler to like, like her other books more and be like, actually, Sharp Object, but I love Go Girl. I love the popular one.

Zibby: Amazing. Now that you wrote this book in whatever style that you don't like that you wrote, not style, method, whatever, are you gonna write another book and then how are you gonna approach it and or are you gonna trust your. Your method and just try it again this way. 

Sarah: Yeah it's so interesting because I've been working on the screen adaptation for FX.

So I wrote the pilot and that's such a formal structure that you, you have to be very disciplined and and also there's a lot more people involved, right? So it's here's the outline, here's how we're gonna approach this scene. Here are the list of scenes. And I can see the advantages of plotting a novel in that way and being very methodical.

And when I sit down to write, I just can't do it. It's if I know what's gonna happen at the end, when I start, I'm not interested. I have to surprise myself along the way. So I do think there is a place for planning, but for me, I. I that, those first like 10,000 words where you're just like having fun and it could still be, the best thing you've ever written.

It's just so exciting and I like having that element of the unconscious coming out to surprise you. So.. 

Zibby: I love that. 

Sarah: Yeah. I have not taken my own advice to answer your question. Still looking it. 

Zibby: Okay. Not to name any names or be too specific, but are there any moms who have done things that you're just like, oh, no.

Not acceptable. I can't believe she did that. Like anything in the back of your head. 

Sarah: I don't wanna out anyone that,.. 

Zibby: Okay. Okay. 

Sarah: I think anyone who is in a mom's or a parent's WhatsApp group for their kids' school has seen some examples of behavior that are probably not people operating in their finest moments. And I think there's something about modern parenthood that brings that out. There's a, an anxiety that I think, I'm in my late thirties now. My life is not as comfortable as my parents' lives were, and I don't expect that my kids will have greater security than I've had unless I'm able to somehow help them.

And I think there's an undercurrent of that running through the culture where there is this real anxiety that like things aren't getting better for most people. And if you want your kids to be okay, you have to do a lot more than you used to. Like when I was growing up in the nineties, we just watched Nickelodeon all the time.

Like I don't remember doing a lot of enriching activities. My kids are in like piano, chess it's just a different time. And I think that feeling that like I have to compete with my sharp elbows or else my kid's not gonna be okay is, something that a lot of parents can relate to and also something that, yeah. Is a theme of the book. 

Zibby: Love it. Oh my gosh. Amazing. Okay, so what advice do you have? You've already given lots of advice, but aspiring debut authors, aside from taking your time, which I completely agree with, and really editing it to make it as good as you possibly can, what else? 

Sarah: Okay. I have to take a step back and be like, someone who's written one book should not be handing out advice left and right, and probably I've given enough advice, but I will say this, which I wish I was able to hold more closely to my heart, which is don't compare yourself to other people.

Don't go on Instagram and look at what other people are doing. Delete Instagram. Just don't compare yourself. And that's advice for writing and for life. And I think it's so hard when you're starting out, you have to compare yourself. 'cause you're like what's even possible? What's out there as a path and who could I aspire to be? But it really will kill your joy like faster than anything. So delete Instagram and if you have to be on it, don't compare yourself to what people are doing on there. It's not real life. That's probably my best. Best advice. 

Zibby: On the other hand, I like your Instagram account, so there you go.

Sarah: I'm gonna tell my publisher you said that. 

Zibby: Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Sarah, I'm really excited for you. I'm excited because the book is so fun and awesome and raises so many issues, but also that it shows that you can just do what you've always wanted to do and that sometimes it works out. And you know what?

That's inspiration that a lot of people need, like it can work out. There is the Cinderella story, as you said, and the point is if you're having fun and writing what you love, good things can happen. 

Sarah: If it could happen to me, it could happen to you. So just keep going. Finish your draft. You can do it. 

Zibby: I'll be cheering along.

I can't wait to watch it when it comes out on FX, and excited to see what you write next and all the rest. So congratulations. 

Sarah: Thank you. This was so fun. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. 

Zibby: Okay, me too. Alright, thank you Sarah. Okay, byebye.