Zibby is joined by Rabbi Elliot Cosgrove, a leading voice in modern Judaism, to discuss FOR A TIME SUCH AS THIS, a poignant exploration of what it means to be Jewish today. Rabbi Cosgrove shares the urgent circumstances under which the book was written following the October 7th attacks in Israel, and how it explores the complex dynamics of Jewish identity, antisemitism, and solidarity in a time of crisis. The conversation also touches on the renewed sense of communal belonging among Jews worldwide, the moral clarity and challenges that emerged after the attacks, the many faces of antisemitism (overt violence vs. more subtle exclusionary forms), and the rising tensions both outside and within the Jewish community. When asked if he feels hopeful, Rabbi Cosgrove admits it’s difficult in the short and medium terms, but affirms that to be Jewish is to hold on to hope.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome Rabbi. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked with Zibby to talk about for such a time as this on being Jewish today. Congratulations. 

Rabbi Elliot: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

Zibby: Of course. It's a delight. Okay. You were writing this book. Tell, tell us the timeline of when you started writing this book.

The events of October 7th and everything that's sort of been happening in the world as the book has, has entered into the, into the bookstores and all that. 

Rabbi Elliot: Yeah. Oh wow. So the story of this book is that it began obviously as a project post October 7th, but really some of the ideas. Were, uh, happening and, and prior to October 7th about the, the tensions between Diaspora, Jewry, and Israel hyphenated identities, the nature of antisemitism, a lot of these themes I had been touching on 

Zibby: Mm-hmm.

Rabbi Elliot: Prior. Um, I've been a Rabbi at Park Avenue Synagogue for nearly 18 years right now. But the October 7th made me think of how can I contribute to the conversation? How can I contribute to the Jewish people in a moment such as we were all experiencing? And I had been doing a lot of fundraising. I had been doing a lot of writing and advocacy and public work, um, for the Jewish community, both here and in Israel.

And at that moment in time, truth is a book agent who I had been working with for some time said, let's get a proposal and let's see how it can happen. And I submitted something and Harper Collins picked it up and they said, this is great, but we want it to be out at the one year point of October 7th.

And so they said, if you can get us a manuscript, this was between sort of February one and May of 2024. So it can be published at the one year mark. And it was crazy. It was to write at that pace. I was still working. I was up before dawn every day and just got it out with a lot of help from a lot of friends and it was published.

And of course, one of the most disorienting things about writing a book. Is that the events were and still are happening in real time. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Rabbi Elliot: And I was speaking to my editor and I was saying, well, what happens if the hostages are released? What happens if the war is gone? What happens if this whole thing about antisemitism is just kind of a, a passing fancy and we're all kind of revert back to normal?

And I said, let that be our problems. Let it be the case. And unfortunately, as you and I both know, the hostages are still hostages. The, an antisemitism and anti-Zionism still exists. You know, these, these still remain questions that we're facing. 

Zibby: Well, congra, I mean, it's impressive to get a whole book written yourself, and not only were you working in writing, but the stress of everything going on in the world, everything is elevated right now as the uncertainty, you know, shrouds everything we're doing.

So there's still that added layer. Can I read a paragraph or two of your book? Is that okay? 

Rabbi Elliot: Yeah, I have it here too if you want it, if you want the Rabbi voice. But why you, you go for it. 

Zibby: Okay. Just like a tiny, little, tiny section. This is what life is like post October 7th here, uh, because you do have the one thing that is true for all of us, I think, which is this renewed sense of community post October 7th, and you wrote about it in a beautiful way.

So first, the disorientation that suddenly we were. You know, wait, hold. I'll just read it. I don't have to summarize it for a time. The streets of New York were canvassed with photos of the hostages as we pass them. My wife would tap and kiss each one. As religious Jew would kiss a meza on the lentil of a doorpost.

Often the signs on the streets and on social media feeds reflect the other side at best, ignoring the events of October 7th, at worst, blaming the attacks on Israel. Wait. Weren't we the victims? Sometimes it feels like the world has lost its moral compass. We feel incredulity. Incredulity, I dunno, incredulity, how do you pronounce it?

Rabbi Elliot: You got it. You got it. 

Zibby: Okay. Incredulity disbelief and yes, deep loneliness. But we have also experienced something beautiful and uniting a tribal awakening. Our feelings of vulnerability are intermixed with solidarity, our disillusionment with moral clarity. There's a sharpening of our sense of kinship, the feeling that indeed we are a people who dwell apart.

And you keep going from there. But I thought that was beautiful. Talk a little bit about that and how you've seen that in real life and in your experience. 

Rabbi Elliot: Look, the, the, we all felt a sense of whiplash on October 7th. We were going about our lives. Uh, things weren't perfect by any stretch, but we keep on keeping on.

And then this moment of time where the attacks happened on October 7th, not only attacks on Israelis, attacks on Jews, attacks on humanity, but we ourselves, when the protests came. When the hostage posters were torn down, somehow, uh, people who were victimized were thrust into the, the other side, the aggressor, and where did this come from?

How did this happen? And it was very disorienting. But like other times in life, when everyone is telling you x um, sometimes that's actually a moment of clarity and you say, you know what, I'm actually gonna. You know, stick to my guns here. Um, I know right from wrong. Um, and I know that. Whereas reasonable people can have reasonable debates and disagreements about how to resolve the conflict of the Middle East.

Um, the, the, the sexual violence, the physical violence, the murder, the hostage taking that is not what, um, civilized people do. And uh, and I think that, that, that's just a moment, um, of clarity. And I actually speak in another chapter about the Garden of Eden and the ability to know right and wrong. Uh, one for each other in, in, in the garden.

And I think, uh, it, it's a moment of time where we have to say, um, this is just wrong. This is just wrong. And, uh, and, and so that, that awareness, that moral clarity, uh, also sort of, you can connect the dots to this sense of tribal identity. Um, this sense of, you know, some people call it, I mean, you've written about this, um, Zibby at great length, but the idea of a sense of, of of cohesion as a people, um, in a way circling the wagons, but also this internal a question of, well, what does this thing of Jewish identity actually mean to me? Not being defined by those who hate me, but by on my own terms. Um, what does it mean to be, uh, Jewish now? And, and I think that, um, I've seen that uh, in, you know, the number of Jews and pews. I've seen that in philanthropy.

I've seen that in advocacy. I've seen that in everyone becoming an accidental activist. Everyone's finding their lane for some, uh, it's collecting socks and sending them out to Israel. For others, it's going on solidarity missions. For others, it's getting lighting Shabbat candles and baking challahs and inviting people to your table.

Everyone has to find their lane, right? For me, I run a community, I write, right? Those are the arrows in my quiver. I don't suggest those are the arrows for everyone, right? But it's this idea. Um, and the name of the book is for such a time as this. I talk about that moment when Esther had to step up to the calling of the hour and everyone needs to have their Esther moment.

Uh, and one of the inspiring things in the face of all the trauma has been people, uh, figuring out how they can contribute to the wellbeing of the Jewish people. 

Zibby: When you think about your own relationship to Judaism, which has been obviously lifelong, you've dedicated your career to this. As you said, you're running this whole community in the aftermath when so many other people are finding their lanes, you are already in a lane.

Has your lane shifted at all? Have you started driving faster down your lane? Like has anything fundamental shifted? For you personally? 

Rabbi Elliot: Yes. I, I October 7th, like nine 11. Like other historic dates of trauma or of triumph? I think there's a before and an after and I think ju just as my Rabbi, its different post COVID.

I, in a much more particular way, COVID affected. The globe. This affects a certain conflict and a certain people. Um, my job as a Rabbi has, has, has changed. I make the distinction in the book, um, between Genesis Jews and Exodus Jews. Genesis Jews being the sort of go forth, the call to Abraham to be a people, to be a blessing and other nations will be blessed by you.

That's a very positive identity. Uh, Exodus Jews. I suggest in the first line of the book of Exodus, a new Pharaoh Rises who didn't know Joseph when slaves, the Israelites who fears the Israelites, and, and, and that's a negative identity, the negative push of being defined by others. I think that I was working day and night and prior to October 7th to try to serve the Genesis identity to come up with my colleagues here at the synagogue of the most dynamic expression of positive Jewish life and living. On October 8th, we all woke up and realized that we had to play defense as well as offense. We had to, um, fight antisemitism. We had to equip our kids with the tools to, you know, give expression to the Zionist story and to arrive on campus and be armed with the counter argument to the narrative they were going to experience on campus.

So a whole sort of circle the wagons response to this exodus identity of, of what it means to be a Jew today. The trick now. Is how to walk and chew gum at the same time, right? The, the threats are still there. Uh, I don't know when this podcast is gonna be dropped, but last week something happened at Columbia University, right?

It's not going away. It's not going away. This is not a passing fancy, this blurred and pernicious line between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, we're still facing it every day. So how do we fight the good fight? But also remember that it's about inviting people to our home for Shabbat, it's about, it's about being connected to community.

Um, being Jewish is about being literate and loving as a Jew, um, in, in all the positive expressions. I will say and just one last thought is that it has shifted also, and now we're 500 and nearly 50 days into this conflict. I think it was a circle, the wagon shields up moment at the beginning. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm.

Rabbi Elliot: Older to shoulder with our Israeli brothers and sisters and Jews around the globe. Zibby now I feel that as a Rabbi, my job is to keep these crazy Jews from tearing themselves apart from within. Um, you and I have have had some exchanges about this, about, um, there are people within the Jewish community who as opposed to fighting the good fight, um, would rather expend their energy.

Um, to, to attack within our own tent. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Rabbi Elliot: And I think that our enemies are laughing at us. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Rabbi Elliot: Right? We, um, who are such a small people who face such enormous challenges right now should waste our energy. Um, in that sort of way. And so in Israel things are not simple, very polarized society. Here in America, things are very polarized, but there's a way to disagree without attacking someone and accusing someone of being an enemy of the people.

And, and so I've expended a lot of time of late to try to give my community and by extension. The broader community, um, the language by which we can hold the complexities of the moment, um, and not tear ourselves apart as a Jewish people. 

Zibby: Yeah, that's so important. This infighting is another unexpected wrinkle.

Not that debate is unexpected or questioning, right? That's a hallmark of, of what we do. It's like you learn and question debate. But the fact that it could really, at this time, like, come on, like really. 

Rabbi Elliot: Correct and, and look, it, it involves like embracing complex truths. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Rabbi Elliot: Right. We can be totally unrepentant about Israel's right to self-defense and self.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Rabbi Elliot: Nation and we can ask the question of empathy and, and name Palestinian suffering, and talk about relief and aid to Gaza and really, you know, stand tall and proud to say it's because we love Israel, that we need to actively talk about the day after plan that please God when the hostages are back.

When, um, this war abates, right? How can Israel stand side to side, neighbor to neighbor with its Palestinian, you know, community. And, and I think these are, these are Zionist questions. These are, these are beautiful, hard prickly questions, but we shouldn't shy away from them. And. Um, they're important to ask.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And actually, you do such a great job in that to towards the end of the book, you have a, a fictitious conversation with a friend of your, one of your kids, a girl named Maya, who is questioning all of the things, and you go into detail and you're like, Ugh, this is what I wish I had said to her.

Like, let me lay it out right here. Uh, can you sort of summarize that for listeners? 

Rabbi Elliot: Maya, Maya is not fictitious. Maya is. 

Zibby: Okay. Sorry, but the conversation was fictitious or not. 

Rabbi Elliot: Conversation that I should have with her, but like M Maya and the Maya's of the world are very real. This is, um, I have college age kids.

This is a kid who grew up in my house, literally like I'd come home at night. Wake up in the morning, she's at my kitchen table, um, BFFs with my daughter. And all of a sudden, you know, and she approached me and was like, why do you have a flag, an Israeli flag on your bema? Why do you say the prayer for the state of Israel?

That's a national statement. That's not, you know, we're a faith. We're, and, you know, and what came out of that conversation was that her, um, Jewishness is not aligned right. Very well educated kid. Jewish day school, Israel education, Jewish Summer Camp Senga, everything, everything. People make the mistake and say, well, these kids just don't know.

These kids know. And um, she's just saying, how do I square the circle that my Jewish identity is not aligned with the decision making of the Israeli government. And, and so I model in the book, um, how to have that conversation in a way that, back to what we're talking about, of sort of this engaged listening dialogue to be curious, not furious, right?

The truths that I hold as self-evident are not the truths that the Maya generation holds to be self-evident and to have that conversation in a way that acknowledges that her, her reality is one where she grew up. You know that the only prime minister she knows is that of Netanyahu, right? If you were born in 22,000 or, or after that, that the only, um policy she knows is one that seems to be, you know, um, making a two-state solution impossible. But the only paradigm she has is that of Israel as a Goliath to the Palestinian David. You can't tell someone that's not her reality. That's her reality. And so I'm a product, um, probably a bit like you of like that earlier moment, that Oslo moment that maybe we can all figure everything out in some way.

Uh, and I think, um, to sort of say, Maya, you, you have a point, right? This is your reality. But we also need to acknowledge that Israel, 47% of the Jewish global community lives in a neighborhood that's not the Upper East Side. The Middle East Israel, surrounded by enemies. Um, who would see Israel's destruction if given the chance?

So how do you square the circle? Of your values with, you know, your hopes for, um, the Jewish people. And, and I think there's a path of intentional listening, um, of acknowledging the claims of another, of breathing, not attacking and communicating. And I, I just, um, think that intergenerational conversations, IBI is, is so, so important, uh, with the Mayas, the Gen Zers of the world.

Zibby: I agree. By the way, what do you think of Mayor Adams' new initiative? And again, this will be coming out a little bit later, but he's just announced as the first, uh, citywide department of combating antisemitism. Did you hear about this? 

Rabbi Elliot: Well, you know, you, you know more than I do. I, I haven't, we had the synagogue gal.

I, if this happened this week, I, I don't know. 

Zibby: It happened this week. Okay. Well. He said, uh, you know, with a million, with a million Jews sort of in and out of the city, it's his responsibility. And so it's the first city to have a task force of sorts to combat antisemitism. So who knows? 

Rabbi Elliot: Yeah. There, there have been, there are people, folk who have worked on, uh, combating antisemitism.

You know, Deborah Lauder was, I think in the de Blassio. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Rabbi Elliot: And I think, uh. You know, you know, you, you, you have to, you know, fight. You know, I, I, I make a distinction in the book Zibby, about, uh, the different kinds of antisemitism, right? There's the crude sort of, you know, end of a fist or the swastika painted on a wall, but there's also sort of the, the sort, what I call the higher, more gentil antisemitism that, you know, takes Jewish zionist, uh, voices out of public space.. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Rabbi Elliot: That you know better than anyone about, you know, what happens in the publishing industry, what's happened in other arts and entertainment. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Rabbi Elliot: Right. That we don't allow certain voices into our tent. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Rabbi Elliot: Right. That's not, um, uh, uh, an antisemitic screed online.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Rabbi Elliot: That is antisemitism. And the thing is that sometimes there's this sort of seamless slide from the higher to the lower antisemitism, right? From the genteel to the, to the brute force, um, of a fist. And I think it's got, you know, so you need a battle against antisemitism on the streets. You also need a hearts and mind campaign, um, to make sure on campuses and cultural institutions and, and publishing and all sorts of industries that we throw a flag on the field early and actively.

Zibby: I love that. Speaking of, you know, brute force antisemitism, you tell this incredibly disturbing story of what happened to your cousins when you were young. I'm so sorry that that happened. And that is part of your family lore and it's almost like no surprise that you became a Rabbi or something to try to defend.

Um, can you share a little bit about that and how, how you feel looking back on that incident? 

Rabbi Elliot: Yeah, well. Even though I grew up in Los Angeles, my family roots are all British. If you ever wondered what a name Cosgrove is for, you know, a Rabbi, uh, my folks moved here and, uh, just as I was born, and my cousins who were in, uh, the UK and Leeds and in Manchester were sort of viciously, violently attacked on their way to school.

They were wearing their school uniforms to their Jewish day school. And it wasn't just the violence which was near death, um, by a gang of thugs, um, but it was also this sort of. Bystanders, um, in the face of that violence, which shook them to the core. And these guys got off these thugs, um, with sort of a slap on the wrist and my cousins in each, in their own different ways.

Um, have all been living with the sort of ripple effect of that attack, uh, that day. And I personally though, was nowhere near at the time by dint of the fact that we, our mothers are sisters and I sort of live with, uh, that could be me, you know, and my parents made a different decision. Of where I was gonna grow up.

And so, um, that story, uh, is, is sort of somehow imprinted in my soul and the soul of my family. And again, it goes to sort of the, the viciousness of, of antisemitism. It's illogic, right? These were just school kids going, uh, off, uh, to study one day. Uh, and um, and just the nature of Patriot, um, right. How did it.

How did it develop in, in those individuals? Um, what were the cultural cues that might have made them feel that it was okay and that their actions would go unpunished, and then probably nothing to do with Zionism or otherwise. That was just pure, unadulterated hatred. So in the book I sort of explore sort of the, the pedigree, the, the DNA of these ancient hatreds.

And again, suggests that we have to, um, fight this fight because American Jews often thought that, okay, antisemitism something in Europe, antisemitism is something historic. Um, it's really not something that affects us. And I think post October 7th, we're all saying, well, well, maybe we're not so different.

Maybe these ancient hatreds are very present and very present in our own communities. 

Zibby: Well, again, I'm so sorry that that happened in your family and in so many families who have experienced hatred like that. Do you have hope? Do you feel hopeful? 

Rabbi Elliot: It's hard. I wanna be honest with you. It's, it's very hard.

I feel that there are so many things that need to be done. I think short term, uh, the, you know, right now as we're speaking, Israel is planning a reentry and Gaza, the hostages are still hostages in a short term. Um, I don't see light in a medium term. I don't see that next day answer. Um, and in a long term, I don't see sort of you know, easy resolution in terms of demographic trends and both within Israel and in the Arab world, period. So that's the downer part of it, I think, to be a Jew, is to be hopeful, right? When, uh, the, the children of Israel left Egypt, um, they went towards the promised land, whether or not they were actually going to arrive there.

The great prophets of the biblical tradition, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and otherwise longed for return to the land. Um, whether or not that was gonna happen in their lifespan for 2000 years of exiles. Jews said that at the end of a Passover Seder, we said next year in Jerusalem full well, knowing that it wasn't gonna happen in our span of years or something in the DNA of the Jewish people to work towards and aspire towards, um, to take agency towards creating a future, even if.

Future may not be experienced in our own day. And so for me it's kind of, uh, you know what Hessel once said, I'm an optimist against my better judgment. I, I, I have to work towards something. I write a whole chapter on a two state solution is something that's gonna happen right now. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Rabbi Elliot: Probably not.

But is it something that I continue to hold as my North Star ideal? Absolutely. Yes. And so I can't live any other way. 

Zibby: Well, Rabbi, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time that you wrote this book in the midst of complete upheaval in the world and personally, so thank you so much. 

Rabbi Elliot: Thank you. 

Zibby: Thank you.