Award-winning actress Phillipa Soo (best known for the role of Eliza in HAMILTON) and her sister-in-law and co-author Maris Pasquale Doran join Zibby to discuss PIPER CHEN SINGS, an empowering and heartwarming children’s book about a girl who turns performance jitters into confidence when singing a solo at her school concert. Maris, who draws from her career in psychotherapy, and Phillipa talk about their own experiences with stage fright and anxiety and connect them to the book’s main topics: big emotions, mindfulness, and managing uncertainty. They also talk about the creative and collaborative process behind this project—from brainstorming on FaceTime to refining the art with their incredible illustrator, Qin Leng.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome. Today we have Philippa Soo, who I just found out goes by Pippa, and her sister in law, Maris Pascal, am I pronouncing it right? Dorian? 

Phillipa: Yes? Pascal, yep. 

Zibby: Pascal Dorian, who are the co authors of this fabulous new children's book, Piper Chen Sings, which is beautiful and inspiring and so useful for anyone with any sort of stage fright.

Congratulations. Congratulations. 

Phillipa: Thank you. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: Thank you. 

Zibby: This wanting to feel the flap of the butterflies thing is, is really relevant at any age because so many things can cause these butterflies, not just the singing, which of course is, I think, one of the bigger messages of the book, right? 

Phillipa: Exactly. Yeah.

When we were, when we were devising, you know, what this idea would be, it became very clear that yes, though it was about. It was also about feelings and, and having big feelings in general, as we see from all of our young friends out there. There's a lot going on and there's a lot to discover about your body and your feelings and your emotions.

And so it became really important to us to make sure that You know, this book was able to display a very specific story and a very specific character and her own experience and give them tools to be able to deal with all of these big, big feelings. I meant 

Zibby: for parents. Oh, yeah. Yes. 

Phillipa: Yes. Yes. Yes. 

Zibby: Forget these young people with big feelings.

Phillipa: Yeah, what about us? 

Zibby: Yeah, we're the one reading the thing over and over. Anyway. How did you two decide to collaborate on this and everything? 

Phillipa: Well, at least on my end of it, it sort of started with, I did an afterword for the Eliza Hamilton children's theater picture book. And that was also through Random House.

And, you know, at the time they were basically like, if you ever have any ideas for a kid's book, you know, just, just reach out. And of course, I think like many artists and like many people, I had a huge amount of imposter syndrome. How could I ever be a writer? You know, what I do, I interpret and I enjoy taking on leadership roles and rooms.

I really felt like, Ooh, like, I don't know if I can do that. You know, it was scary and vulnerable. And I think, you know, about a year or so later, Maris and I, as we are sisters in law, we were at the annual Pasquale Christmas party, Christmas Eve party, to be exact, and just chatting about children's books and how amazing it would be to write a children's book.

And I think I was like, well, let's do it together. I mean, let's, let's try and write one. Why not? And I think that's very organically. Yeah, I think that's why writing was always scary to me because it's something I love working with people. And it's something that you, for a lot of people, you have to do alone.

And so the idea of collaborating with Maris, who I think is not only an incredible woman, a very smart woman who understands stories very well, but also as a mom and has a perspective that I don't necessarily have as someone who doesn't have kids of my own. And I was like, yeah, let's, let's collaborate.

This is going to be fun. We'll see, we, we don't, we don't even know what it's gonna be. Let, let's see, let's just throw some ideas. At the time, it was like 2018, there was a lot of things happening, in the world, and we just felt like we, I, I felt like I really wanted to have something that could reach out and help young people because I, I could see the world around me and how intense that was for me and thinking to myself, oh man, I wish I could give something to young people.

Also, kind of stemmed from this idea. I get asked a lot in interviews and by fans, what would you tell your younger self? And so for me, this book was kind of an answer to that. 

Zibby: I will not ask that question. 

Phillipa: Marissa kind of has her own way into it as well. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: Yeah. Our collaboration certainly came through that organically and that fun, right?

I mean, truly just at the Christmas Eve party chatting and hanging out and I was inundated in picture book world at the time is I have two young boys. They're just under two years apart. So I was reading often, you know, and in that phase where they were to beginning reading, and I put that in quotes because they were sort of memorizing and that gorgeous, uh, experience of reading picture books that are more lyrical and fun and almost poetic and they're finishing the sentences and it just was the best part.

I said this in my bio and I say it all the time because it remains as such, even though they're older, it's the best part of the day reading with them. It's such a nurturing. Loving, intimate time, quiet, a little less stimuli. It's, it's a really beautiful and special time and something to experience. And as I said, I've been really inundated with these titles and these beautiful pictures and this medium, and it had fun kind of.

Creating some little ones of my own or little vignettes here and there with them, which Pippa knew and said, gosh, you know, to your point earlier, Pippa, I get asked this all the time. And this is something I have this opportunity through this relationship. And what do you think? And we had a blast. I mean, in the beginning, I think it was more just like an excuse to grab dinner.

We were like, let's just get together a lot and have fun. And we were shooting for the moon. Our ideas were all over the place and really centering it on Piper because as Pippa says, that time in the world was Unique and hard for many and you know, I'm a psychotherapist in my day job to be able to bring some of that into this book and to be able to center a Chinese American character and a female felt really important for us for kids who see themselves in her and kids like my two boys who do not and yet have similar parallel experiences, whether it's stage right specific or going to the first day of school or camp or whatever the new experiences or being a.

Yeah. A mom and a professional and having her very first podcast, right? Whatever it is, this is a commonality. 

Zibby: Are there some butterflies flapping around your Zoom screen today? 

Maris Pasquale Doran: They're settling once I begin to speak. 

Zibby: Such a coincidence. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: Very meta. 

Zibby: Maybe one of you should explain. 

Phillipa: Yes, so the story is about a young girl named Piper Chen.

She loves to sing. She'll sing, you know, all over the house. She sings on her way to school. She sings while she's in school. Very quietly if she's in the library. And she loves her singing, her music class in which she is singing in it. And her teacher asks her if she wants to sing a solo. Hello? In the spring sing, which is coming up.

And at first she says yes, very excitedly, and then starts to realize she's having these complicated feelings about what that will mean. I eat the butterflies and through. Going to her loving nine, I, her grandmother and asking what she should do about these butterflies. She gets a tool, which enables her to be able to deal with these feelings that she has.

Not to spoil the ending, but she's able to realize that she has a choice in the matter and that she can hold many feelings at once being excited and being scared and ultimately have the autonomy to make a decision for herself, but what she wants to do with those feelings. 

Zibby: Wouldn't it be funny if the end is that it was like horrible and traumatic and she like and then that leads into like your therapy practice and we fast forward and she's like in the chair 

Phillipa: Exactly 

Maris Pasquale Doran: This one time with the spring sing, yeah exactly we have said often though you know for some kids the brave choice is not doing nothing, right.

So like, you know, a real intention of being aware of self and what feelings are coming up for you in various moments of your life to help inform how you can be empowered to move forward and move through it. And for many people, those butterflies are this really beautiful, innocuous telling you something exciting is ahead, like our Piper.

And for some, it may be a different experience and indeed not doing the thing or doing the thing that's, that's different from maybe the rest of the group, maybe the brave choice. So it's, you know, it's a joke and a funny one, but it's, it really is true that maybe that isn't the ending for all and that that could be okay too.

And just to be aware that we're all kind of individual and listening to ourselves and being aware of what does come up for us was an intention we have that, you know, the grownups will probably see a little more than the kids in terms of plotline. 

Zibby: I wrote this whole essay at one point about I'm married for a second time.

I mean, it's been like seven years, but I wrote about how when I was dating my current husband, we had this whole thing where he was talking about butterflies and I'm like, You know, they go away, right? Like this isn't going to last. And he's like, don't crush my butterflies. So we still like joke about that.

And you know, you really, sometimes you want those, sometimes you want the little slappers to stick around. 

Phillipa: Well, another question that I often get asked is like, what do you do if you're nervous? Cause I have a lot of young people who I think love singing and it brings them joyZibby or performing or, or there's something that brings them joy and they feel nervous about it.

And I'm like, well, quite frankly. For myself, my nervous feelings oftentimes come to tell me that there's something exciting happening and it's because I care it's really actually because I care that I'm nervous as opposed to I don't want to do it that I'm nervous, but that's like a feeling that I had to assess and look at and examine myself, you know, for them, they might be nervous because they have a legitimate stage fright.

And like, that's okay too. But, you know, I think when we were crafting this book, it became really important to us that we not only just gave a tool, but also like a way for people to help themselves, like in their lives, when these butterflies come up, like what exactly that means. And there's science out there that tells us like, once we acknowledge something that is making us anxious, it's giving us like nervous feelings that these feelings can dissipate among just.

The simple act of acknowledging that it's a real thing that it's happened. So that was sort of our goal when crafting the story, because we were hoping that it didn't feel like something that was prescriptive and like something you can do all the time. And every time you feel nervous, this is exactly what you do.

You know, we really wanted to work hard to make it interpretive and specific to her own experience. So that it could be in its specificity, have this universality, right? 

Zibby: Well, it's good because a lot of advice is what you have to do, right? Like take three deep breaths or, you know, there's like all this stuff, I guess, to your point about being prescriptive, but having an attitude shift around it and like welcoming the butterflies and being like, okay.

You know, maybe they get to a point where they're like, okay, I'm here. I'm, I'm waiting, you know, maybe you start giving out nets, right? So you have to be ready to catch them ahead of time. So then it comes and you're like, Oh, phew, here we go. 

Phillipa: Well, I mean, I love where you're going with it. Cause the metaphor could keep going, right?

Zibby: I'll stop. I'll stop. 

Phillipa: I'll add to that to say, like, you can catch a butterfly. You can look at it. You can examine it. Yep. And actually, like, ask yourself, like, why am I terrified of this? But the minute that you just, like, try and shoo them away and pretend like they're not there, that's when they're going to come back full force.

Zibby: Right, right. They're not mosquitoes. They're beautiful. 

Phillipa: Yes, that's right. 

Zibby: Right. This would be a totally different book if you were sworn to my locust or something. Do the two of you have plans for more books together? 

Maris Pasquale Doran: Yeah, perhaps. We are hopeful to be able to grow Piper and her world if that's an opportunity for books that we've certainly between the two of us have a lot of ideas and themes and concepts about what she and the characters in her world could do and go and what else we could put out.

Zibby: And is Piper actually going to sing somewhere? Like, do we get to hear her? 

Phillipa: Also something that we were thinking about. 

Zibby: All right. 

Phillipa: There will actually, I can say this, there will be an audiobook version, which will be available in the near future, probably around the same time that the book comes out. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: And same release, yeah, April 2nd.

Phillipa: Yeah, same release. And, and, you know, we, we're definitely incorporating music into that. I'm going to be narrating it. So, you know, the Piper Chen sings will definitely have elements of music to it, and I will be narrating it. But, yeah, we've definitely been thinking a lot about, in the vein of, what else can Piper be?

You know, there's a lot going on with this little girl, and she has a lot to share. So, yes, there's music involved, and we hope that there will be more.

Zibby: I still think you could fast forward and make a novel about her. You know? 

Phillipa: Oh! I like that. You know, we've talked about that. 

Zibby: Okay. 

Phillipa: It's interesting. I mean, you've written a children's book as well.

Zibby: Oh, thank you for even knowing that. But yes, I did. 

Phillipa: Of course. And I'm just curious, like, compared to writing novels, like, when do you know if an idea, aside from the fact that, like, it's about a child, or a child is involved, like, when do you know if an idea, for a story is meant to be a long form or meant to be short former.

Maris Pasquale Doran: That's a great, great question. Especially that you have a release this week. Don't you think? 

Zibby: I do. Look at you. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: Congrats. 

Zibby: Thank you for researching who I am. That's really sweet. I appreciate it. I would say it has to have a lot of like what if threads going off it to be a novel. It would have to say like what happens when this huge event in Pippa Chen's life gets derailed. Like, how many areas of her life is that going to impact, and why, and like, what is going to be turned around, you know? And then once you go there, it could go anywhere, right? Then you have so many places to take it, don't you think? 

Maris Pasquale Doran: So her canvas is just much, much, much, much, bigger in terms of the risk, the risks.

That's a great insight. 

Zibby: And then it's fun to think about her, you know, does she lose her grandmother at some point? Like that's such a lovely relationship.

Maris Pasquale Doran: Yeah. 

Zibby: When her grandmother became a citizen, like that was so beautiful. Is she like in her office later in life? Certificate on the wall.

Maris Pasquale Doran: Exactly. 

Zibby: I am so sorry.

I don't know why I'm even going off on this whole thing. 

Phillipa: No, I love it. It's all in the vein of world building, which is something that I'm obsessed with, and I think Meris, you're also obsessed with, just this idea that stories can take you to so many different places, even if it's just one character. 

Zibby: Yes.

And so much better than it being like, don't be nervous. You're getting that stage. You know, I heard myself saying that to one of my kids the other day, like, I'm so worried about Sleepaway Camp. And I'm like, Oh, don't worry. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's the worst advice ever. I take it back. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: But that's okay.

Right. Or isn't that the number one thing we're learning as moms is to be able to say like, actually, I'm rethinking that. And indeed that's my stuff. Cause I hope you're okay. I know you will be. 

Zibby: Right. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: And yeah, exactly. Like I work on that every single day. I've got two young boys of just holding the experience with them.

Zibby: Yes. That's hard for people who want, that's hard to just go away. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: That's hard. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

Zibby: Pippa, did you ever have stage fright? And as Hamilton got more and bigger and bigger, like with so many people even watching it, it were like such big deal people. Like, does that freak you out ever? Like, do you ever, do you get butterflies when you perform now?

Phillipa: Yes, I get butterflies all the time. I mean, in, you know, different varying levels. I think that I've gotten. Way better at managing that. I mean, you know, I, I used to say it was just the difference between how much time it took me to laugh about it is the like measure of my progress. So, you know, getting super nervous or doing a show and then coming off stage and feeling like, that wasn't a great show.

Or, uh, you know, about to step on stage and feeling like I am so nervous. I feel like my guts are going to explode, you know, like the minute, the amount of minutes it takes for me to laugh about it after the fact is just my measure of how successful I am in handling it. You know, like growing up, I think I just tended to be more of a perfectionist, like checking the boxes and like getting the good grades.

And it took a long time for me to understand that. Progress isn't always just, you know, checking a box and then, you know, wiping your hands clean. Like I did it success. There will be things as an artist, as a person really, that you will come up against that you won't necessarily be able to get rid of, but you have power and autonomy and control over how you handle them.

That's really the only thing that you have control over. And then maybe one day, My nervous butterflies will go away or there'll be like a whisper of what they were, you know, 10 years ago when I was first starting out and I was trying to like prove myself to the world. It was just really, really valuable advice that I got.

And you know, I was so lucky with something like Hamilton, which was very much a part of my start in this business that I was just surrounded by people who. You know, had been doing it for longer than myself and had really great healthy perspectives. on how to handle all the ups and downs, all the butterflies, all the storms and the rainbows and the sunshine and the highs and the lows.

Like it's a lot. And you know, you have to be an aware person to be able to handle all of it. 

Zibby: And Meris, do you, In your practice, like have your regular go tos of how to help people get through things like that? 

Maris Pasquale Doran: Sure. I mean, I, I'm a very mindfulness based in terms of my therapeutic approach. So, I mean, before every single session, we set our space, we set intention.

Right. We do that sort of practice of slowing down, of anchoring, of being grounded, and I encourage them all and anyone, because in my personal life, it's been such a gift, right, to have a mindfulness practice. And that can really help, because as Pip is saying, just that awareness of what's happening for you.

And to be able to say, well, how much is this allowed to drive, right? So maybe I'm feeling anxiety, maybe anxiety is coming up and being aware of that because almost every single person that I see professionally or personally is managing their emotional reactivity. That's pretty much, you know, that's a, that's a big theme for most people, parents certainly, but all human beings, right?

And so being aware of what's going on for you and as it's coming up as well as the physical self, right? So we usually don't go from zero to a hundred like that. Things are sort of building, our attention's coming, and so to sort of know who you are in various environments and see those symbols and signs that are kind of speaking to you and to say, okay, I may be anxious.

Hi, you're allowed to be here with me. You're allowed to be in the car. You can't drive, right? That sort of concept of how to say, okay, you're here. And also then as Pippa's saying, right, let's interpret that. What does that mean? So are these nervous butterflies, which is most people talk about in this really innocuous and in fact, really beautiful way, or is this, you know, some sort of trigger of a threat?

Really something that's going on and have those synapses been formed Because we have fire alarms going off when they shouldn't do we have a little bit of a faulty system And then where there's a lot of work and some cognition, etc on reframing that and on rebuilding Or indeed is that a response that's totally appropriate and that is indeed how you want to be in your life, right?

So many people pursue a therapeutic intervention for some sort of crisis or change But most of us would really benefit but just understanding how are we built? How did we get here? What are the Very, very, very unique circumstances that led me to this exact place and moment. And am I moving forward throughout my life in ways that make sense for me, that I feel good about, right?

My communication, all of those pieces. So, and the biggest thing I think that I say 1 million times a day, no doubt. And that comes up in our book with Piper is that seemingly conflicting concept of two emotions that seem in conflict and that truly do coexist, right? So for her, it's feeling both. Very nervous, a little scared, and extremely excited, and this thing that she really, really loves.

And most of us, children and adults alike, have that experience oh so often throughout our lives, where it feels like two competing concepts. Indeed, they really are. And that we have this ability as humans, as beautiful humans with this high functioning brain, to truly have both at once. And to be able to sort of sift through and just be aware of both of those things and say, well, which gets to lead my action?

Zibby: Well, I am going to book an appointment with you. Either for myself or one of the, one or all of the kids, take your pick on a given day. I found myself like, my shoulders like literally relaxed as you were saying all that, I was like, Oh, I have like an inch. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: Oh good. Oh good. Well, wouldn't we all benefit? I mean, I work on it every day of my life right? Wouldn't we all benefit of just even taking that extra breath between meetings or that breath before we react to the child or sitting in traffic, you know, whatever it is to just say, all right. And it doesn't mean suddenly we're like Zen and walking through the world. Oh God, not at all. In fact, I'm absolutely an emotionally well human being, but that's okay.

That's who I am and I'm comfortable. Right. But to be able to say that emotional reactivity is not Working for me. So indeed, where does it root from? And how do I maybe shift some of that? 

Zibby: So how does your husband slash your brother feel about this book and the collaboration? And was he a little bit nervous that you guys were getting close and like what was going to come out?

Is there any of that? 

Phillipa: He's so excited. Like, I think more than any other feeling, he's just like, I just can't believe like two people that I love so much are first of all just getting along and also like creating something together like I have to say like I'm gonna get mushy now Maris but I like this has been so meaningful in just in getting to know you as A sister and as a friend, because, you know, we've really been able to be vulnerable with each other in a really beautiful way.

And it's, it's been one of my favorite collaborations that I've ever had. And Steve, he's just really excited. If anything, he's like so jealous that we're talking all the time and we're hanging out without him. You know, he likes the hang. We like to hang out with each other. You know, that's the beauty of this whole family, but yeah, it's been so meaningful.

And to get to see that reflected in Steve. Has been also so meaningful because I see him see how special it is. And it's always a lovely reminder, you know, stepping outside of my own head, getting to see that in him. It makes me feel so great. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: I feel the exact same way. You know that I do. I hope that, you know, I do, but it has just been an absolute joy.

We joke. It's the most fun we've ever worked. It's such a joy. Every single step of the collaboration has been fun. It's been a really surprising aspect of this process of like, this is just a blast and we're having a great time. And Aunt Pippa is such a huge role in my kid's life. So to be able to talk to them about it and have them watch us and what we're building and all of these pieces, it's awesome.

And it's fun on the side that I can text Steve after we have a moment and be like, I really appreciate the intro to my writing partner. 

Zibby: Wait, Pippa, and I should know this, I guess, but do you have siblings?

Phillipa: I do. I have an older brother. 

Zibby: So now he should write a book with Steve. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: Yeah, that's right. 

Phillipa: Exactly.

Zibby: And we can have a whole series. 

Phillipa: Oh, yeah. 

Zibby: Everybody, one big happy family. It'll be perfect. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: All in the family, all in the family. 

Zibby: Having written the book, do the two of you have advice for aspiring authors? 

Maris Pasquale Doran: Find an amazing partner, find a partner like Philippa Soo. If you have the chance to collaborate with Philippa Soo in your life, take it.

Zibby: The three people out there are very excited to go forward with that. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: I'm teasing, I'm teasing. I think, you know, a big piece is one thing that was really awesome for us in terms of how it worked for us. So it may or may not be helpful to others. I thought that something that was wonderful and it speaks to you, Pippa, and to our partnership We were able to be totally vulnerable and throw out all kinds of ideas, right?

We weren't paralyzed by that one. That thing's not good, or I don't know, or how would you react to that? Or what do you think? Or is this too out there? I mean, this, this came down to Piper Chen sings, but it began as sort of this whole world and concept. We went a number of different directions before we landed on this specific plot line.

And to be able to just. put anything out there and throw it at the wall and really have a vulnerable, awesome brainstorm together. Opened up, I think a lot of our creativity, a lot of our collaboration made us feel safe together, made us have fun together. That beginning I thought was really pivotal to, to setting the foundation for really what a joy it was through the whole time and hopefully ending in the place that we're really proud of the book itself.

Phillipa: Yeah, I feel like my advice would be because I've always been an interpreter in my creation. And so creating something, and it really, like when people say this, it's really true. Like, it feels like your child. I don't know if you ever felt like that about your own book, Sibby, but you have this child, right?

And I think the metaphor is just because it's coming from you. There's someone in it, but you also have to allow it to be what it wants to be. It will, it will organically lead you down roads. You know? People often ask Maris and myself about like, what was your process like? And, you know, like the first things first, we had to do most of it on FaceTime because it was during the pandemic.

You know, we couldn't like wait those two weeks to get that test and, you know, make sure that we were completely COVID free. So we would like meet weekly, biweekly, and it would sort of just depend on like what was floating, what ideas we were running with. And it's sort of it, like at a certain point, the piece was letting us know what it needed.

You know, there was a lot of like putting ourselves into it at the very beginning. And then once we had something, it really felt like, and Maris, tell me if you agree, like this level of flow that just sort of indicated what, where there were You know, where ideas were incomplete, certain things like, for example, language surrounding, acknowledging your feelings and the conversation around like, okay, so we want to make sure that everybody knows that this is specific to Piper, that just because you're feeling nervous, doesn't mean like something exciting is happening, that it could mean that, and how can we get specific about the language?

And so there was a lot of intention. But into tiny little teeny tiny moments, which sometimes took a whole session where we were on FaceTime for two hours talking about how the language should be, you know, and then there were days where it felt like, you know, just, Paragraphs and like, you know, all these stanzas like came out of like a week's worth of work and, you know, it ebbed and flowed.

And I guess my advice would be, it's going to have ups and downs. It's not going to look like what you think it's going to look like, but you do have to have a certain amount of care and intention, but be open to let it grow. Change and guide you to places that maybe you wouldn't necessarily go to. 

Zibby: I love that.

That is all fabulous advice. And I hope that you do something with the beautiful artwork, like the butterflies and the end papers and all of it is so gorgeous. I hope it becomes a wallpaper or I don't know what you're going to do with it, but I'm obsessed. It's absolutely beautiful. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: Well, a huge Qin Lang.

Phillipa: Yeah. Qin Lang is our illustrator and she really, I mean, we had an idea of what we wanted and she really just like brought it to life. The color is fabulous. Each kid has their own personality. Seeing Piper for the first time. I mean, it was like, it was like something coming to life. We were like, Oh my God, she's real.

She's a real little girl. And that's all because of Chin's amazing. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: She's incredible. 

Zibby: Wow. Well, fabulous collaboration all around and great book. And it was so much fun getting to know the two of you and wishing you all the best with this fabulous new launch. Exciting. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: Thank you so much, Zibby. Congrats to you.

Zibby: Thank you. 

Phillipa: Thank you. 

Zibby: All right. Take care. 

Maris Pasquale Doran: Thank you. Bye. 

Phillipa: Bye. 

Zibby: Thank you.