Paula Faris, YOU DON'T HAVE TO CARRY IT ALL: Ditch the Mom Guilt and Find a Better Way Forward
Guest host Julie Chavez interviews Emmy Award-winning journalist, speaker, and mom-of-three Paula Faris about her latest book, You Don’t Have to Carry It All: Ditch the Mom Guilt and Find a Better Way Forward. Paula discusses her research on working moms in America, pointing out the systems and outdated gender expectations that continue to make their lives so challenging. She also talks about CARRY Media, the organization she founded (after abruptly losing her TV job), to advocate for and celebrate working moms through load-lessening content and resources.
Transcript:
Julie Chavez: Paula, welcome to “Moms Don’t Have Time to Read Books.” I’m so happy you’re here today.
Paula Faris: I am so thrilled to be here today. We’ve just had a blast getting to know one another offline. It is a small world because, Julie, your parents are literally my neighbors in Podunk, South Carolina. I live in the middle of nowhere, and your parents are here.
Julie: It is incredible. Like I told you, I kept reading the book, and some of the references, I thought, gosh, this sounds close. I know I’ve been there when I’ve visited my folks. It’s such a beautiful area. It is a small world after all.
Paula: It is a small, small, small world. Oh, my gosh.
Julie: I love it. I must congratulate you, also, on your small world, though, gaining a Target. That’s when we know that things are on the up and up.
Paula: When you say Target, we’re talking about the retail store Target, which I could live at. I love everything about this area, but we don’t have a Target nearby. It’s forty-five minutes. We just learned that we have been approved for a Target. It is the best news anyone has ever heard. You could say the second coming was happening or we’re getting a Target, and we would all choose a Target.
Julie: I love everything about it. I would feel the same way. Target does have that, I’m overwhelmed, and I need to just walk the aisles somewhere. Target’s the place.
Paula: Yes, therapy.
Julie: Yes. I also feel that way about Sephora for some reason. My husband informed me that they do a lot of research before they build their stores. I was like, it shows. I’m going there right now. Shout-out to all our favorite retailers here.
Paula: That’s amazing because I do that at Ulta, which is similar to Sephora. I don’t like shopping for clothes. That gives me anxiety.
Julie: I hate shopping for clothes.
Paula: I love Target. I love T.J. Maxx and Marshalls. That’s therapy for me, and Ulta/Sephora. I like shopping for makeup. I’m a lip gloss whore. I will buy every single kind of lip gloss that’s out there.
Julie: Because we’re looking for the right one. There’s got to be a perfect one.
Paula: They discontinue. You find one, and then they discontinue it.
Julie: I don’t think I’ve ever known such betrayal as that. When somebody discontinues your lip color, I’m like, why does the universe hate me?
Paula: I know. I just did that yesterday. I was trying to reorder this lipstick that I love from Honest. It’s discontinued. My favorite one from MAC is discontinued. I went on eBay. It’s ninety dollars. I’m like, okay, I’ll find another color. I’ll find another one.
Julie: Lipstick on eBay, I love that you went that direction with it, though, to check.
Paula: Some people are hustling lipsticks.
Julie: I just had no idea. I would never have thought to hoard those.
Paula: I googled the color under “shopping” to see where else it would populate, and it said eBay. I’m like, how much is it going to be?
Julie: Let’s just check.
Paula: We’ll find a new lip color.
Julie: Ninety, that feels a little aggressive.
Paula: A little aggressive.
Julie: In your spare time, you’ll be looking for a new lip color. I’m so happy that you’re here today to talk about your book. The title is You Don’t Have to Carry It All: Ditch the Mom Guilt and Find a Better Way Forward. I told you before we started that when I read the title of this book, I thought, this book is for me. Have you had that reaction from a lot of moms or a lot of women?
Paula: Yes. I know there’s a lot of authors out there that write books routinely. It’s their job. This is not my job to be an author. I just had this message that I had to write. If I don’t ever write another trade book, that’s fine with me. I needed to get this message out there. When I hear moms tell me — I said that very Michigan, by the way. I was like, moms
Julie: I love it. Moms. Put it in the bag
Paula: In the bag. When I hear moms telling me that they feel seen and heard and valued and validated, that’s all I need to know. I believe that mothers should be celebrated instead of scrutinized and punished. It’s just so difficult to be a mother, let alone a working mother, here in America. That’s the biggest compliment for me. I say it’s a hug and a sword. You’ll feel seen and heard, and you’ll feel empowered. When I hear that that’s happening, that’s better than Target, honestly. It’s better than Target.
Julie: It’s better than Target. That makes total sense. I really love hearing that because that was my reaction. I was following my husband around when I was reading through the book reading things to him. I said, “Listen to this.” It kind of makes you feel equal parts really validated because — I’ll start here. The thing that I really liked is that — I think sometimes as a mom, because there is this tendency toward mom guilt and so many things that the world keeps asking — you’re never going to keep up with it. What your book does is reminds us this isn’t an individual failure. This is a systemic failure. You can’t out-exercise a bad diet. You can’t outwork this system. No matter how efficient you are, you’re never going to get there. I think that’s such a validating thing for people to hear because it can be so heavy to feel like you’re not doing enough.
Paula: You feel like you’re all alone in it. For us to realize that we’re not alone and there’s nothing wrong with us for feeling like this — it’s because the system isn’t set up to support motherhood, let alone working motherhood. That’s nothing that we did wrong. It’s nothing that we did wrong. I also want the book to feel — that’s the journalist in me — helpful and hopeful and empowering and that there’s tools. I don’t want to be like, the world is ending. It’s, look, this sucks. It’s not a good situation, but it’s going to get better. It’s getting better. Here’s how we can have a hand in making sure that that happens. The empowering aspect was really, really important for me. I think there’s a lot of books out there that rip the band-aid off and reveal the ugly truth. I wanted to reveal the ugly truth. For me, it was important to interview historians and sociologists and talk to thought leaders about, why is it so hard to be a mother in America? Why are we more burned out than ever before? Why are we penalized for motherhood? Not just how we can give mothers the support they need and deserve, but the why behind. The why is where a lot of people don’t understand. They understand the how we can do it, the nuts and bolts, the Xs and Os. Here’s how we can do it. A lot of people don’t understand the why. That right there is the validating part. This is why we’re important. This is why motherhood should be celebrated. This is what we uniquely bring to the table. It’s like, finally. I wanted people to feel like, finally, someone is speaking up for working moms and speaking up for motherhood. I’m tired of apologizing. I’m tired of this society scrutinizing us and penalizing us and telling us that we have to work like we don’t have kids and have kids like we don’t have a job. It’s talking out of both sides of its mouth. We say we’re a family-friendly country, but we’re really not. We’re really not at the end of the day.
Julie: No, we’re not. You point that out in so many effective ways in this book. I really appreciated that. To your point, too, I had this thought after I read through the book. We talk a lot about the mental load right now, which is so real and so valid, but then also think, how can I kind of flip this script for myself and say, “Wow, look at all the things I do manage. Look at all the things that we are doing”? Then how do you push that and make that into fuel to move forward in these other ways? I love what you talked about with negotiating your salary, just these basic things that are really helpful. I work in education, so unfortunately, that’s useless to me for today. Maybe later I’ll be using it. It’s a good lesson.
Paula: It is a good lesson. It’s good to know the motherhood penalty exists. We make seventy cents on the dollar compared to fathers. We’re passed over on promotions. We’re scrutinized when we take off time to be with our children. Fathers enjoy something. Conversely, it’s called the fatherhood bonus. They’re more likely to be hired than a man without children. They’re paid more because they’re parents. My friend said that the book felt like myth-busting to her. I was like, that’s actually a really good description. I have it in my own mind, what I want the book to do. When she said myth-busting, I was like, that’s awesome because it gives you context too. Context is really important. We are making seventy cents on the dollar compared to fathers. Yes, that sucks. We’re not asking for raises. When we ask for a raise, we’re asking for thirty percent less than men do. We’re asking for them three times less than they do. Yes, the system isn’t set up, but I think it’s important that we settle into knowing our worth and advocating for it too. Like I said, there’s a lot of stats and a lot of research and a lot of stories to just give you the ammunition that you need to make sure that we are taking those steps forward to making sure that there’s a better way forward because it doesn’t have to be like this for our kids. What we’re dealing with — that’s another thing, Julie. It’s very generational.
Julie: Yes, one million percent. You’re exactly right. I was thinking as you were talking, this is something that you’re doing for you, and you’re also doing for your kids. The things we can open up for them — so much of that was coded into our generation. There was a lot of absorption of those messages. Seeing them and refusing to continue to abide by them since they are myths anyway, I think that’s such a good message. I also did want to tell you that one of the titles that I was considering for my book, which we wouldn’t use because it does oversimply — I found it hilarious. It was In My Next Life, I’m Going to be a Dad.
Paula: Why? You can’t you — I love your title.
Julie: Maybe it’ll come back around. In My Next Life, I’m Going to be a Dad. The stuff that comes out of my husband’s mouth sometimes, the other day, he said, “Where do you go –” He didn’t know the name of their middle school. I said, “In my next life, I’m going to be a dad.” It seems awesome.
Paula: It does. You know what? That’s where it’s so important that we invite the men into this conversation. Chapter eight of the book is all about how we can do that. I’m not saying that men are innocent here. The ownness can’t be on the marginalized person, which is the mother, to get them to figure it out. They have grown up being told that they should be a good man. There’s “be a good man” or “a real man,” and those are two different things. They’ve also been told that they’re only as good as the paycheck that they bring home and to be the provider or they’re worthless. Men have kind of grown up with their own set of toxic messages and their own
The woman just began absorbing it all. When you think about it, if we do offer any sort of family leave, it’s almost always maternity leave. From the get-go, Julie, the ownness is on the mother to do it all. She becomes the she-fault, as Eve Rodsky says, right out of the gate. So much of it is generational. I’m just so encouraged to see men picking — my husband this morning — I was sitting on the couch. I have some quiet time in the morning before the kids get up. Sipping my coffee. He was putting away the dishes. My little guy, my nine-year-old, walks in. I am so glad he gets to see that. I am so glad that he doesn’t see his mother running around like a mom martyr anymore trying to do it all and trying to carry it all. I have invited my husband into this conversation. I’m like, no more. We are partners here in every sense of the imagination. There’s no excuse for you to not know your kid’s teacher’s name by the end of the — it is May. At the same time, the system isn’t set up to include them. PTA, they send it out to the moms. They do everything to the moms. It’s like we just need to start over, almost. I don’t fault men for everything. A lot of it is generational. A lot of it is the toxic messages. It’s just what we know.
Julie: That’s such an important point that you make because so much of this is, we don’t know better until we know better. Your book really gives that opportunity. My husband — it’s interesting that you say that. He is the one who cooks, primarily, around here, which is great, except when he travels. Then we all starve. We eat Chipotle all the time, but it’s fine. I’m like, just eat your cereal. I don’t care. Whatever you need to do.
Paula: You’re going to be fine.
Julie: Stay alive until Dad comes home. It was funny because he’s a dad. There have been times where the children have said things like, “I don’t like this dish.” That doesn’t really go over great with him. My son said, “I can’t wait to cook dinner for my family. I’m going to say, ‘This is what I made, and this is what you’re eating.'” It was so funny when he said it. I thought, that is so great because he is just picking up that message. It won’t even be something that would occur to him as being a big deal or an anomaly.
Paula: Or the woman’s job to cook the food. That’s awesome. When my husband and I first got married — we’ve been married twenty-three years. I remember my mom had a hard time with my working outside of the home and being the primary breadwinner. His mom told me I needed to cook for him more often. So much of it is just the generation. It’s the generation. For me, also, I grew up in a very strict, conservative, Christian home. The scriptures were often weaponized. A lot of women grow up in traditions and cultures and religions that diminish their roles at home and in the workforce and in society. A lot of us are dealing with those too. I think that’s incredible. There’s so many stats to show that the children of working mothers — there’s so many benefits. The sons are better partners. They’re incredible fathers. They help out more. They pick up some of that mental load. Yet we often think we’re breaking our children or doing them a disservice when we’re working. That’s so much of the guilt, where the guilt comes in. Mom guilt doesn’t exist in other countries. They have no choice but to work. They take a lot of pride in it. They also have societal help and family and community assistance. It’s a much different situation.
Julie: It really is. You’re exactly right, just looking at it from a different lens in that way and saying, okay, this is something that we can slowly set up for them and give them a path forward that’s better than the one that we had. You address the resilience that you give to kids. I really loved the story of you talking to your daughter after your miscarriage. I really think that’s so important. To your point, kids seeing from their parents that we’re not necessarily meeting all their needs, that that is a good thing, it’s tough to balance. I know for me, for a number of years, I thought that the best thing I could be for my kids was available, that that was the best way I would show them I loved them as opposed to not being around all the time, which is actually a gift to them. How do you feel like that works out for you in your life now?
Paula: I think I’ve come a long way even in the last five years because I pumped the brakes at the height of my career in 2018 when I was anchoring Good Morning America and cohosting The View. So much of it was the mom guilt that I felt. I felt like I wasn’t there. Truly, though, when you look at it, I was not. My hours were all over the place. There was no consistency. I really did want to be present with my children. Then I lost my job two years later. They chose not to resign me. A lot of moms lost their job at the beginning of the pandemic. I’ve learned now to, instead of demonizing work — that’s why I’m so passionate about the work we’re doing for Carry Media, which is, we want to carry the burdens of working moms through content. I’m so passionate about it because I think we have — first of all, seventy percent of mothers will be the primary breadwinner for their children, for their family at some point in their children’s lives. Most moms are working because they have to. For me, I had so many blind spots. I had my own echo chambers I was listening to. Just doing the research and realizing it’s not a choice for most families — most moms are working because they have to. Also, I’m at the point now where I invite my children into it. Instead of demonizing work, which I did a really good job of before — Mommy’s gone. Aren’t you going to miss me so much? If I’m gone for more than two days, I’ll buy you something. It’s the worst thing in the world that Mommy’s going to be gone. I’ll be home in two sleeps.
A friend of mine told me that kids have something called mirror neurons. Mirror neurons essentially means, if I say this is awful, your kids are going to say this is awful. If I say this is good, your kids are going to say this is good. Just changing how I talk about work, A, it’s necessary, but B, I don’t demonize it. Granted, I’m in a good place where I’m an entrepreneur. I’m a founder. I’m choosing what I want to do. I know a lot of people aren’t in that situation. I invite my children into the process. I’m like, look at all these exciting opportunities that Mommy gets to have and really champion mothers and families. I tell them about things that are happening in my day. I invite them. They ask questions about it. They feel like they’re part of it. I invite them. I say, what’s an acceptable amount of travel? What’s not an acceptable amount of travel? It has to work for your whole family. When you invite them into that process, it really changes things for them. They don’t see work as the awful, awful thing that takes their mommy away from them. They see it as an opportunity for Mom or Dad to really use their gifts and callings to do the things that are on their heart. Your kids always know you’re a priority. Again, it’s how you talk about it. It’s how you talk about it. It’s changed my relationship with work. It’s changed my relationship with my kids. My friend who taught me this, he said, “It’s no wonder our kids are eighteen, and they don’t want to get a job. We’ve demonized it. We’ve said it’s the worst thing ever.”
Julie: Interesting.
Paula: I know. I thought that was so interesting, how we talk about it. Kids will pick up on that. My kids don’t talk about it negatively anymore. They’re part of the conversation. They have a stake in it. They can tell us if we’re doing too much. We’re like, okay, we’re listening. Okay, we got it.
Julie: Giving them opportunities to partner with you. Just like we’re talking about opportunities for your partner to be partnered with you, it’s like they’re your smaller partners.
Paula: That’s a really good way to put it. That’s a great way to put it.
Julie: Minority investors, as it were.
Paula:
Julie: They’re invested. I think that gives them a really good model, too, for when they get older in terms of what choices they’re going to make around work and what choices they can make around work to the extent that it’s possible for them. Some things are what they are. You got to just make it work. Then the ones that you do have control over, what do you do there?
Paula: I think that that’s a really good way to just have your kids partner with you. It honestly has changed the way that I relate to my kids. It’s changed my relationship with work too. It’s been a gift.
Julie: I bet. Tell me a little bit more about Carry Media. You were saying supporting moms.
Paula: When I lost my job right at the beginning of the pandemic in TV news — that’s all I’d ever done, Julie. I, like a lot of other moms, had to figure out what to do in that moment.
Julie: Sorry to interrupt. What was that time like? Before you move on from that, you aren’t resigned by the network, what was that moment like for you personally?
Paula: Gut punch, for sure.
Julie: Was it?
Paula: It was a gut punch because it came out of nowhere. My agent was really totally surprised. It didn’t make any sense. I often think that we have to be pushed onto our path. Your purpose can come through your pain. I say this wasn’t what I wanted, but it was absolutely what I needed. It’s been the most beautiful chapter for our family. I couldn’t have scripted it any better, but it came out of pain. In that moment where I lost my job, I was like, what do I do? This is all I’ve known. I used to say there’s nothing else I could do except work in television news and be a reporter or an anchor because that’s all I’d ever known. I hadn’t given myself permission to try anything different. I was like, do I stay in TV news? That’s the safe, expected, comfortable choice. I had other job offers. Do I go for this thing? For eight years, I had had this burning desire. No, it wasn’t eight years. It started after the birth of my third kid, so that was 2014. For five, six years, it had been burning in me to really just advocate for mothers and mothers in the workplace knowing how I was treated, how so many of the other moms I saw, how they were treated in the workplace just because they were a mother.
We get back to that motherhood penalty. I was like, this isn’t right. As a journalist, you’re always looking for marginalized groups and inequities. I’m like, motherhood is marginalized. We’re paid less, valued less, and scrutinized more once we become moms. I knew I had to go for this thing. Had no idea what it was going to look like. Coming out of a season of loss, losing my job, we came down here to South Carolina for what we thought would be a couple of weeks. Ended up just staying here and decided to really start advocating for working moms. Came up with the name Carry because moms, we carry burdens. We carry so much. We carry our children. We want to help carry the burden for working moms. Formed Carry about a year and a half ago. We provide load-lessening content for working moms. We’re there to advocate for working moms. We’re just getting started. We started with a weekly newsletter for and by working moms. Again, it’s got a lot of load-lessening content. We see you. We hear you. If you don’t laugh about it, you’ll cry.
Julie: Too true.
Paula: I feel like working moms is a subset that’s just kind of ignored. Yes, I believe all moms work, but there’s thirty-five million mothers in the workplace that are working and are being penalized for it. I want to speak to them. There’s lots of organizations that are speaking to women and lots of companies that are speaking to mothers. I want to speak directly to the working mom because she is busting her ass. She’s juggling a million things. She’s most likely working because she has to. She might want to. Let’s not villainize that either. She’s being unfairly penalized. She’s juggling a 1001 things and never feels like she’s nailing it. I want to give her a voice. I want her to feel seen and heard. That’s what we’ve been doing.
Julie: I love that you are. I will be signing up for that newsletter posthaste.
Paula: Yay! It’s every Sunday. It’s weekly. It’s a five-minute read. It’s free. We love doing it. We truly do. Building community.
Julie: What’s the website for signing up for that?
Paula: Carrymedia.com. That’s it. C-A-R-R-Y. The Carry All is our weekly newsletter. It’s awesome. It’s load-lessening content for working moms, all kinds of tips. Again, if you don’t laugh about it, you’ll cry.
Julie: It’s so true. I think anything that gives moms and women permission to put things down — that’s exactly what you’re doing. You just put everything in there. I also love that your book even speaks to that. You said that we get fourteen minutes a day to ourself. I read that, and I was like, that sounds about right. It is in fourteen-minute sections. For anyone who’s interested, they’re going to pick this up and be able to really go through it in a way that works for your life. You did a good job of including history and perspective, but it’s not so exhaustive that it made my eyes bleed. Sometimes nonfiction can do that.
Paula: I completely agree. That’s why I love that term myth-busting. There’s a reason that you’re feeling the way you do, but it’s going to get better. I want us to all feel like we’re going to be part of the solution for the next generation because I really do think we are. Getting back to the digestible content, I know moms don’t have time to read. I was like, it’s really important we put it in quick little sections. I’m reading a book now. I’m like, is this chapter going to — I’ve been on the same chapter for the last four nights. I read before I go to bed. I’m like, please, when’s the next break in the chapter? There aren’t any. That’s why there’s lots of little breaks and quick sections, so you can consume it. There’s the audio version, which has been super popular, actually. My publisher’s like, wow, we didn’t even think about that. I’m like, moms don’t have to time to read, but we can listen to the book.
Julie: It’s so true. We can probably listen to it on the faster speed because we’re just that tuned.
Paula: Yes, we are. We sure are.
Julie: What is next for you? You’re going to be working with Carry Media. What’s the next thing on your list that you are going to do just for you?
Paula: Just for me? Oh, my gosh. That’s one thing I address in the book, is that there’s a reason we’re burnt out at record levels, that mothers are. So often, we’re saying no, radically, to everything, clearing our plate. When we’re saying no, we’re removing some of the things that bring us joy. I think that’s really important to do. It’s not selfish. It’s not self-care. It is not selfish. It’s just ensuring that you don’t have to carry it all. We’re weaving in, like you said, something that brings you radical joy. It could be, I’m going to hop in my car for three hours and take a drive in the countryside and stop at little country stores along the way. I write in the book that I said yes to something that gave me joy. I took a trapeze yoga class, which brought me tons of joy. It was just something fun and adventurous. Last Friday, I was like, I’m going to take this water aerobics class at the Y. I just joined. I love old people. I’ve always made fun of those classes. I think we all have, right?
Julie: Of course.
Paula: Those old ladies kicked my ass. So did the instructor. Do you say aquatic or aquatic? Aquatic Challenge was the name of the class.
Julie: I say aquatic.
Paula: I sound funny when I say aquatic. I signed up for this class. I’m coming back every Friday. I’m a regular. I’ve invited some of my other friends. It doesn’t have to be like, I’m going to get a two-hundred-dollar massage. I’m taking a class that’s just going to be super fun for me. I’m driving in the countryside. I am going to go shopping alone. I’m going to walk up and down the aisles of Target or Sephora with a coffee in my hand. It’s really important that we say yes to things that bring us radical joy. They’re often not big things. They don’t really cost anything except for the three hundred dollars you’re going to put down on ten tubes of lip glosses and primer at Sephora.
Julie: It’s true. Yes, we do have to account for that. The walking around, that won’t cost you anything.
Paula: The walking around doesn’t cost you a thing. It’s so important to realize that we’re burnt out at record levels here in this country as moms. There’s a reason for that. You’re not alone. The system’s not set up to support us. The country’s not set up to support us. Attitudes aren’t set up to support us. It’s your kid, your problem. Things are changing with this new generation. That’s what we have to remember. So much of the tension we feel is because of the generations. The most traditional family in American history — this is what I tackle in chapter three. I totally nerded out. It wasn’t the 1950s family, which we think was so traditional, which, by the way, was good for part of the people part of the time because Black people couldn’t work, and women were pushed out of the workforce. I could go on.
Julie: A hundred percent. Oh, yeah, the dangers of nostalgia, which you did a really good job —
Paula: — The dangers of nostalgia. We want the feeling but not the reality. The most traditional family in all of American history, which is short — we have not been around very long — was when the mother and father, the partners worked side by side. They labored together. They produced together. They raised the children together. They worked side by side. It wasn’t this bifurcation of, you go work, I’ll stay home. They worked together. They raised the children together. That was the most traditional family in America. That was one of those moments I was like, oh, my. I had a lot of aha moments. I had so many blind spots that were revealed when I was talking to experts and thought leaders about this stuff.
Julie: Thank you so much for writing this book, for being someone who has a passion, and not only a passion to address it and expose these inequities, but also has a very hopeful posture that there is a way forward and that we can work on it in our little universes and also in our wider universe together. I’m so glad we got to talk about your book today. Thanks for being here.
Paula: I’m so excited for your book. It is called In My Next Life, I Want to be a Dad, right? Should we change the title?
Julie: I’ll get right on that. I’m sure they would love nothing more.
Paula: I’m telling you what, that is hilarious. I would pick that up. I love the other title too. This one makes me laugh. I’m like, I know what this book’s going to be about.
Julie: I know what this book’s going to be about. Maybe we can cowrite it. Maybe we’ll cowrite the next one together since we’ll hang out at Target when I come visit my folks. We’re set up. We’re good to go.
Paula: I know. I want to do a series that’s — Jay Shetty did a book called Think Like a Monk. I think we need to do something that’s like, Think Like a Mom, Work like a Mom, whatever like a mom. Moms are freaking awesome, but we don’t have to carry it all. We can, but we don’t need to anymore.
Julie: We don’t need to. We will end it there. Thanks so much, friend.
Paula: Bye.
YOU DON’T HAVE TO CARRY IT ALL: Ditch the Mom Guilt and Find a Better Way Forward by Paula Faris
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