Award-winning actor and comedian Paul Scheer joins Zibby to discuss JOYFUL RECOLLECTIONS OF TRAUMA, a vulnerable and hilarious memoir-in-essays about coming to terms with his childhood trauma and embracing his authentic self. Paul reflects on his experiences growing up with an abusive stepfather and how it shaped his need to hold onto positive memories through keepsakes. He also describes his late-in-life ADHD diagnosis and shares his best advice for aspiring writers.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Paul. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss joyful recollections of trauma, your best selling book. Congratulations. 

Paul: Yeah. Thank you so much. I'm, uh, well, I'm honored to be on your, your book club. I mean, this is like truly, that's the biggest honor I could possibly get.

Zibby: Oh, I loved it. It's so good. 

Paul: Oh, thank you so much. 

Zibby: Yeah. It's, you know, not everybody has the, Bravery or the introspection to say, like, I'm going to take out all of the cabinets, it's like all my secret stuff and decode them for the entire world. And as summary, as someone who has like 20, 000 memory boxes, like scattered everywhere, I related to that very much.

I'm like, who's going to know about this ticket or why it's important to me. 

Paul: I know what they make me feel so good. Like I have this collection of boxes, you know, and they really do hold everything from like a kindergarten report card all the way to like what my son brought home this year in an art project.

It's like little things, not everything, and people are like, oh, you're a hoarder. I'm like, I'm not a hoarder. They're mementos. They are, they are slightly organized. It's not just like everything goes in a box. 

Zibby: Well, before the iPhone, I feel like there wasn't, we couldn't like take a quick picture or it would end up in an album and that's like my memory now, but before it was a thing from it, right? 

Paul: Well, what's kind of so crazy about my iPhone too is. I never go back and look at those pictures. Thank God they have that wallpaper that shuffles through faces now of my kids, like, that's amazing. I'm like, oh my gosh, I haven't looked at that picture 10 years.

Like, you know, those are, we take so many things and we don't like look back at them. I feel like, like photo albums are such a big deal. Like in my childhood, like, oh, we looked through the photo album. Here we are. We remember this moment and now it's just sort of like we captured it, but we don't log it in any way.

Zibby: Yeah, and when they do want to sit and look I'm like, get off my phone. Let's go. Come on. 

Paul: Yeah, exactly. Yeah 

Zibby: It's all one big waste and so we go back to cat, you know and I have little ones for my kids too that I've started for them so they have their own memory boxes. You must have done this too. 

Paul: I of course have done this I tried to get them into it by making them Nike boxes.

Oh, this is kind of cool. You know, I'm trying to get them I'm bored with it. They do like to hold stuff, you know, but I feel like my kids are so different. You know, they don't like movies. They are. I mean, they like movies just fine, but what they're into everything seems a little bit. I mean, I don't think it's bad, but they don't have that like that quality of like, oh, I want a movie ticket or I remember this thing.

It's like, no, we saw it. We did it. Let's move on. Like, you know, like, and it's, you know, for me, I guess 'cause there was no iPad. I, I spent a lot of time just being like, oh, that's my Indiana Jones Temple Doom movie ticket. I have that on my wall. 'cause I'm remembering I want to go see that movie. You know, like, yeah, there was a, everything felt a little bit more special.

Zibby: Well, having read your, now I feel like I know you, which of course I don't, but, but now that I know about your childhood, I could psychoanalyze and say, you know. 

Paul: Yeah, please do. 

Zibby: Moments of escape and, and otherwise dark and isolated. You know, you hiding all the time. And yet here was this like multicolor world.

Of course. Why wouldn't you want to remember it? 

Paul: Yeah. I think, you know, as a kid we grow up in whatever your background is, you know, like I wrote about in my book, you know, I came out of this like kind of abusive household where we were kind of held captive by this evil stepfather and you know, you find your own ways out, but also at the same time it's all mixed together, right?

Like, you know, it's like, there are these things like your play. It's kind of based around the situation of your house. So it's like, you are still like, like other kids are still applying the, probably the same way I am just the stakes are different. Right. But I don't know that the stakes are different because I'm just a kid.

I don't know what's going on in your house or what's going on in the house next to that. 

Zibby: That's true. Like we could be speaking French. That could be, yeah, exactly. Yeah. 

Paul: You don't know. It's like, everything is normal until, until you get older and then you start telling, I mean, that's really how the book started for me was, yeah.

I do this podcast called How Did This Get Made with Jason Mantzoukas and my wife, June Dianne Rayfield and I would tell these stories about my childhood and the look of shock on their face whenever I would tell these stories. I'm like, wait, that's normal though, right? Isn't that normal? You know, and, and they're like, no, it's, it's not.

I'm like, oh, wait, you know, even, I don't know if you ever found this, but I, as an adult, you get your own doctor and you go to your doctor and the doctor's like, oh, what, you know, tell me your backgrounds and this and that and I realized that like. Even what my parents told me about like how certain relatives died were like sugar coated, right?

Like, oh, he, you know, he died of a broken heart. It's like, well, no, he, he had, like, he had heart disease. Like he smoked too much, you know, like, like these like weird things that you just never, you never, no parent follows up with like, oh, remember when I told you that, that was actually a total lie. 

Zibby: Yeah. Let me backtrack here about giving the real truth.

Oh my gosh. Well, it's easy to sort of joke past. Well, anything I guess, but the abuse in your house was significant. I mean this guy Hunter was horrific I mean horrific and The moment where your mom was finally like, okay, let's do it. Let's just go and she did it, I was I wanted to like stand up in the audience and start clapping That is hard to do and many women never get to do that and they just don't they're stuck forever and at least you guys, you know, not at least obviously it was really bad, but I'm I'm glad that she you got out of it.

Paul: You know, my mom is a pretty amazing person. She, you know, she's in her 70s, she retired and moved out to LA to spend more time with her grandkids and then immediately got a job that was more powerful than the job that she had in New York before she retired. And she's like back and doing it and she's one of those people who I think is always.

You know, she loves working. She, she's really smart and like, you know, part of this too, I think, you know, people would say like, well, how did your, how did your mom let this happen? Or how did your parent, like, you know, I think that you can be incredibly smart. You can be incredibly even successful, but you can still get caught in these traps, right?

It's, it's a weird thing where you don't want to appear to be weak. Even that term abuse is like something I, I had a hard time. Yeah. Wrestling with like labeling abuse. And, you know, so I think it's very easy to like look on the outside and say, oh, she should have been able to do this or that. But what I, I, what I like to kind of say about my mom is like, she did, she, it took her a beat, but we got out, we did this thing.

And that sometimes what she did to get us out, you know, to work two jobs and kind of sneak us out in the, in the middle of the night in a certain way, I'm just blown away by and, you know, as a parent now, I think I have such so much more empathy. I love my mom. I have a great relationship with my mom, my mom, but.

You know, you know, like also all the things that a parent has to juggle because we talked about like, you know, you're, you're trying to make it okay to like you, like my mom was trying to make it okay in this time of insanity and that's, and that's really hard as a parent because you really can't show emotions like you can, but you have to always still be the leader.

Zibby: Yep. I always think about the movie Life is Beautiful. 

Paul: Oh, yeah. 

Zibby: How he would distract his daughter with like games of hide and seek and really, you know, the power you have as a parent to get your kid through anything, even if it's something that you've inadvertently sort of landed them in. It's really significant.

Paul: Well, they're always looking to you, you know, and I think it's this thing that's so you forget like how I'm not open minded, but how, like how the kids will believe you there. They're there for you. They want they, you know, and that's, that's really, I, as I've had kids, you realize the power of that and how it can be kind of, uh, construed in a different way and how certain things can balloon.

My kids love Mr. Beast. I don't know if your kids love Mr. Beast. I have one kid who's obsessed. Okay. 

Zibby: We had, we even ordered the hamburgers on like.

Paul: Oh my gosh. 

Zibby: Disgusting. 

Paul: Okay. We're, we're wearing the sweatshirts. We have the festivals and you don't have to watch a lot of Mr. Beast. 

Zibby: Chocolate bars, chocolate bars.

A hundred 

Paul: percent. So my, they're watching one video and it was like, I hired an assassin to come and get me and if he can find me, he'll get a million dollars. Right. And I were driving cause they were watching in the car. And I, I said, uh, my youngest son, who's seven was like, dad, what's an assassin. And now normally I would think about this before I say anything.

I go, oh, just like, it's like when you hire someone to kill you and it, and it goes and I, we were driving, things were happening going quick and I'm putting them down to bed. And he was like, I could tell he was nervous. I was like, what's going on? I'm worried that assassin is going to kill me. I'm like, oh no, no, no, no.

And, and you realize like, oh my gosh, I just said this thing so cavalierly and it just blew open his world of like, oh yeah, you can hire people to kill someone. And then, of course, his older brother sticks his head down. He's like, no one wants to kill you. Maybe dad. And I'm like, no, no, no, no one is, no one.

But those little details are so much to take in. And there are things that we say so kind of cavalierly because of course I know what an assassin is, but they've never heard it before. 

Zibby: Yeah. And the chaos, the questions and answers. 

Paul: Oh, yeah, it's, I mean, I, I mean, I'm, I am, I am walking on eggshells in this house because we were having lunch yesterday.

My wife was away and it was just me and the two boys and in the middle of lunch. No distractions. My, my youngest goes, is Santa real? And I go, what? And I was like, um, and I was like, wait, I'm sorry. He goes, yeah, Santa real. Like, huh? I was like, that's interesting. I was like, so now I'm like, I don't know how to get, like, I can't not like get out of this question, you know, and I'm so trapped by it.

And I'm like, I mean, what, what is, what, what do you think? What's real? What's, you know, like, I'm trying to like, I'm trying not to like. Overtly lie. But I also feel like lunch is not the perfect moment for this conversation either, but you're just trying to like weave Bob and weave my friends, a child psychiatrist and or psychologist.

And she said to me when my wife's father died, we were like, nervous. Like, how do we deal with this? Like, what do we say to the kids? They're too young. Like my youngest at that point, or my. My oldest was like, only like one and a half, two years old, but he understood enough, you know, you could talk and, and she said, you know, you say like, be honest, but brief.

And I always try to be like, that's why I always try to just be like, just honest and brief, honest and brief. And, um, you know, cause it's like the minute you start concocting a new, a world, that's, that's when you get into trouble. 

Zibby: It's so true. I accidentally ended up telling them that the tooth fairy didn't exist.

Like as we were getting onto a flight, And then the whole time my daughter just sat there crying and now like fast forward to last week where she lost another tooth and she was just like, I lost my tooth at school. Can you just give me 20 bucks? And I was like, I'm not giving you, I'm not paying you to lose your teeth.

She's like, but aren't you the tooth fairy? And I was like, it doesn't work like that. 

Paul: Well, my kids, we brought them to Walt Disney World and, and my kids are so excited to meet like Woody and Buzz. And you know, there's something really kind of magical about you watch these movies as a kid and you see that they're toys, right?

Like Woody and Buzz are toys, but then you go to Walt Disney World and they're walking around and they're bigger than humans, you know, and they're big suits and stuff. And my kids are so excited. They're meeting Woody and Buzz and they're talking to Woody and Buzz, but there's like this connect of like, they're not realizing, well, that doesn't make any sense.

And my kid was so excited. He's like, Oh my gosh, I got, he was talking about Woody. And my wife's like, yeah, but those are just people in suits. And I watched her go away. Oh, I was like, I wasn't even trying to like undercut it. She was just kind of saying it like, yeah, but they're, they're just people in suits.

Like, it's not like she, she wasn't ill intent, you know? It was, but it was like, oh, I guess it's like, it's so you're, it's such a weird world. And you don't want to be that person that spoils it. But I guess there's always going to be some kids, some world, something that spoils it in some way. 

Zibby: Well, it's amazing that they actually live in a world where they think magical fairies fly into the window and leave to grab your teeth anyway.

I mean, and then I'm like, and I'm trying to rationalize, like tying your shoes with this person. Do you like all these other things? Like, this is what they believe in good faith. 

Paul: I know it's like, it's, it's so interesting. Cause I want to keep, I'm a big believer in like keeping imagination alive, like whatever, you know, whatever that is.

It's like, it doesn't mean that we have to be like, totally in a fantasy world. But it's like, I think that like, as kids are growing up in this culture, their imaginations are not being used as much as they used to be. Or at least I felt like there was a lot of downtime as a kid, you know? And it's like, and.

My, I was talking to this director who I love, um, his name is David Lowery and he directed movies, like very artistic movies, like the Green Knight, but he also directed Pete's Dragon, the live action one, which I loved. It's so beautiful. And we were talking about like the importance of empathy. And like, when we grew up, like. These movies like taught us empathy, et dies.

That's sad. And I feel like kids don't have like empathy and imagination the same way, because it's sort of like entertainment's being pulled in a different way. They have access to things in a different way. Even if you take away screens, there's like, there's a knowledge. It's just there. Yeah. Like you don't like, if I wondered about something, I'd have to go to the library, get a book and figure out what it is.

You know, it's like, you can now ask your parent as a phone, be like, what is that? What's happening there? What's the biggest building, you know? And it's, you don't have to have a time to like. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Paul: Ideate on it or whatever and just think about like what could this be? Sometimes 

Zibby: I'm like, can you just give me 30 seconds for my brain to work?

If my brain can't think of it, then let's look. 

Paul: Yeah, exactly. Just like, give me a second here. I know, like that, that is so important I feel like to, like, try to put away the phones and just think about it, have a discussion about it. Like it's, it's often, it's like the fun of it. Like I think back on like parties I was at as a, like a high schooler, like we're talking about, oh yeah, I remember that movie, that person was in that.

No, they were in that. And you know, you're not exactly right, but it's part of the conversation. Isn't it about it's, we're not writing a, you know, a research paper, you know, we're just having a conversation and it's sort of like, sometimes the phone can kill that. 

Zibby: Yep. 

Paul: That group think. 

Zibby: And the amazing feeling when you actually think of it.

Paul: Oh. It's truly satisfying. 

Zibby: I mean, what competes with that? Nothing. No Google search. 

Paul: Forget it. No, I know. Yeah. 

Zibby: Towards the end of your book, you realize, thanks to Twitter, that you have ADHD and your wife's like, yeah, of course you do. I thought that was so interesting. I always wonder if I have ADHD and now I keep reading all these books and I'm like, hmm, how did you?

I don't. Really self diagnosed. And was that a joke? Or do you really have that? Or how do you feel about it?

Paul: No, it's definitely not a joke. The way I came across it was on Twitter, uh, which you know, it was a funny way to kind of find out because, you know, every doctor worth their salt will be like, don't go on Web MD, don't do this.

Don't research your own thing, but this person, you know, kind of accused me of having it. And I was like, I don't, of course I don't. And I just started to, but I started to like kind of look in, um, on Twitter. Like I typed in ADHD. It was like ADHD awareness day, I think happened at the same time. So it's trending.

So as it's looking, I started reading stories of other people and I was like, oh, I do that. Yeah. I do that because I think what I thought ADHD was, talking to my cousin about this the other day, was like being hyper. Oh, I'm so hyper. I'm this, I'm that. And it's not that. You know, I think it's like, we have this like weird idea of like these things.

It's, you know, they can't sit still. They're this, they're that, they're this. And the truth is, is it manifests in so many different ways. I'm dyslexic to a certain degree. I can read. I love reading. I went to a reading teacher and kind of got better at reading when I was a kid. All these things. Kind of all add together.

So I started like Twitter as my first entry point. I was like, okay. And I went to my therapist and I was like, it's weird. I had this thing. And I, I, I think I may, I may be that, you know? And, and, uh, my wife was like, yeah, you are. And she's like, well, I'm gonna give you two books, read these two books. And what do you think?

And so I read these two books and it was like reading. Uh, like the instructions of my life, I was like, Oh my God, there was like one chapter in one of them where it was like, you know, click. Yes to whatever you agree to. And it was like 100 questions. And I feel like 80 of them. I was like, yes, I was wild.

And then she's all right. Well, I think now you should go and see a psychiatrist and they can talk to you. And, and that's when I kind of went and got officially diagnosed as that, which was really interesting because yeah. You know, there's that phrase, you know, you don't want to go through life with a, like a horse with blinders on, but when I started getting treatment for this, it was like I was going through life with like, like a horse with blinders on.

And it was, that was a good thing. It was like, oh, I'm able to focus. And, and my life has been, I've been incredibly productive. I've been lucky to be where I am and what I do, but it felt like my building. Like, I was a building that was constantly under construction, like, scaffolding was all around it, making sure it was held up.

I had my systems in place to be productive, but, wow, there was no substitute for actually, like, literally treating it. It was, like, a night and day difference, and then there was, like, this immediate regret of, like, wow, what if I had this when I was in high school, or what if I had this when I was in college, or, or really at any given point?

Zibby: Wow. Well, then all the people who are now so lucky that they get it treated early. Thanks to our generation. 

Paul: Well, that's, that's the kind of crazy thing. I've seen a lot of people really diagnosing themselves lately. And I think, I think what we're kind of realizing on a certain level too, is like, you know, there's just more research done.

More people are, are a little bit more introspective, looking at themselves, seeing what they're doing. Like, you know, brain health is as important as any other kind of, you know, thing in our body. Yeah. And it's genetic and I can see it from in my family very clearly, you know, it's like, so I don't know.

Yeah. I've been fascinated by like that. Everybody looking at each other. And it was the one chapter I wanted to leave out of the book because I look, I love reading. I love memoirs. Yeah. And I've read good memoirs of our bad memoirs, but like pizza, they're all pretty good, but like, but I, there was something about it where I was like, it felt to me like, Oh, am I just putting this?

I wasn't, but it felt like, Oh, is this a chapter about how I have ADHD? That's my hurdle. I'm going to get over it. And there was something about it that I felt uncomfortable sharing. And I was about to take it out. And my wife was like, why are you going to take that? My publisher was like, why are you taking that now?

I was like, cause I just felt like it's like, it's still like, eh, you know, it's too like, and I think part of it was, I hadn't really told anybody about it. I kept it really to myself. It was kind of fresher than the other things I had talked about. And what I came to realize, and now that the book is out is wow, it was, I'm glad I left it in because it's helped partners identify other partners.

It's helped people go like, oh my gosh, I have that same thing. And I think. I don't wanna pat myself on the back, but I will say that. 

Zibby: I'll pat, I'll pat you on the back. 

Paul: Alright. A lot of people. Thank you. Thank you. That good? Um, I think a lot of people will look at me and go, well, you're very productive.

You've done a lot of things. You're not what I think like someone who has ADHD has and. It allows them to kind of look at themselves. It's not like, oh, I didn't, I couldn't pay my bills. I never got up. I was depressed. I was this, I didn't get anything done. And I think that, I don't know, there's something about like, I've talked to a few very productive people who are like, I feel like I have, this is really helpful to me.

I've like a guy, I have a good friend who got tested and, and he's like thrilled. And yeah, so I think that that's important too. I think that there's a stigma around all of this, like what ADHD looks like, what it is, who the type of people it is, they are. So yeah, so I'm, I'm glad I added it in, but it was like the chapter I was the most like, eh, I'm nervous about that.

Zibby: Well, I think it's another example. I feel like this course is throughout the book of just, you're being able to get through anything and maybe understand it later. Maybe it pays off later. Even like that job that you had where you negotiated severance. 

Paul: Yeah. 

Zibby: Yeah, like you can get through anything I mean, obviously, you know a childhood of abuses and a really boring job are different animals but it's the same sort of tenacity and The motivation for inspiration rather for people reading to be like, okay well just stick through it and things will get better at the end.

Like you just have to get through it. 

Paul: Well, I think that there's like something about you know, this book You Is not the book that I intended to write, you know, in many respects, I think that in the beginning, it was going to be like funny childhood stories, which I would have loved to do as I was writing it.

This this kind of came out naturally because I was telling a fuller version of the stories. And, you know, one of the things I realized when I saw it all together because it was coming together in bits and pieces was oh, you know, I'm so lucky to have friends and a support system, a wonderful wife, a great family.

But at the same time too, there's a part of me, it's like you have to keep on there, there's no easy way. There's no exit. There's no, uh, there's no shortcut, right? Like you just have to keep on kind of working on things and, and hopefully you, you tie yourself to people that will help you achieve that, you know?

And, but if there are nobody, but if there's no one in there, you can't It may have to come down to you and, you know, and, and maybe there's moments where you are lifted up and maybe there are moments where you're by yourself, but yeah, I think it's important to kind of do both a little bit of both. Like I'm not saying you're left yourself up by your bootstraps.

That's the only way it's like, no, I think that there's a certain moments where you, you know, you can't count on anyone and you have to look for yourself and there's moments where you have to count on everybody. And yeah, to me, it's, it's, I loved writing this book for a couple reasons, because I was afraid that.

It would fall in this, this category of memoir that would be like show busy. And I didn't want that. I felt like that's not super relatable. It's like if I'm Barbara Streisand, God bless, then let's do it because I'll have stories to tell, you know, but the truth is, is like, I find myself responding to things like, uh, Janet McCurdy's book, you know, so by my mom died and things like that, like there's.

More universality to it. And that's what I think has been so amazing about this is talking to people like, Oh, I wasn't in an abusive household. Oh, I, I had a friend who was, but I identify with this. I like people identify with things in different ways. So I feel like, you know, I read Paris Hilton's book and I loved it at this section about, you're going to this boarding school. It was horrific. I didn't have that experience, but I can identify with the feelings there. And I think that sometimes some of these conversations I've had with people, it's not like, oh, you've had my life or it just like, but we had something where we triumphed over something. And, and, and, and I feel like when you share these stories, sometimes they're dark, sometimes they're light.

You know, the book to me, I think it's told in that I try to make it entertaining, but it's, It's important to tell these stories, because going back to what we talked about in the beginning, it's like that empathy, that like, oh yes, I can put myself in these shoes, I can see where I can take from that, too.

It's important. 

Zibby: And I feel like you included the stories of when you were growing up, some of the stars, like Alan Alda and Bill Cosby. Oh yeah. Being so nice and like here you are now you're a celebrity and you have the chance not only to be nice to people but literally like pour your heart out and be like, I know I'm so nice that I'm actually going to like write a whole book for you.

Paul: Well you know what to me it's like I'm so lucky and I'm sure you feel the same way like I love being nice. I'm a fan. I'm a fan first, right? I, I, I love art. I mean, whatever that is, if it's movies, tv shows, literature, literal art, you know, like music. I like, so I love supporting that. I love seeing people that I love, you know, so I also understand like when people come out to see a show, it's money hard earned.

And I want to make sure that. Every experience is worthwhile. You know, you know, people would say to me, like, well, you've, you spend so much time at these book signings. I'm like, well, what else is the option? Like we like, you know, it's like, there's no, you know, like if someone's going to buy my book, I'm so eternally grateful.

Like it truly is, you know, it's like, because. The reason why I'm able to write this book, the reason I'm able to have a podcast, because people listen, people buy, people support, and, like, I can never forget that. Like, that's the most important thing, you know? I don't want to forget it, you know? It's like, so yeah.

Zibby: I love that. Do you have advice for people trying to write their own memoirs? 

Paul: You know, I think the, the best advice, I could give is don't worry about it being perfect. Just start getting it out. It will start to come. Like, I feel like this book to me, and I'm not somebody who is a sculpture artist, but it felt like carving marble.

Like I was like, I have an idea. Okay, this is coming. Oh, this is a little different than what I thought. Okay. Like I just kept on kind of evolving and I would see it as it was like happening in front of me. You know, I like I was, it was odd in that way. Like I knew what I wanted to do, but I also wrote it.

With the knowledge of, because before I sold the book, I wanted to write a lot of it. I wrote about a hundred pages of it and it's not the exact same form, but it was allowed me to go like, no one's going to see this. If this stinks, forget it. I won't, I won't go off and get an agent. I won't try to go sell this book.

So writing in that world where it's like, I have complete control, this is not going out. That's not a tweet. I'm like, I can sit with this. I can, you know, so there are moments where I really wrote hard stuff that I was like, I never want anyone to see, but sometimes that's okay because it got me to a nugget, a paragraph, something else that I did think was important.

So to me, it was like, let it all go. The editing process will kind of mix and match everything. Like, as a matter of fact, sorry, it's a long answer to your very simple question, but. 

Zibby: No, it's great. It's great. 

Paul: You know, I, I wanted to write my, my first note that I ever got was go deeper. Great note. And the next note after that was go even deeper again, I'm so thankful for those two notes that kind of kicked me off because I was afraid to go deeper and in the process of writing, I was like, well, what am I afraid of saying here?

And I wrote that chapter of like what I was afraid of saying, and I feel like that was a trauma dump chapter. It was a chapter that was Oof, it was not, there was no lightness and I think the book really balances and as a matter of fact, my editor was like, okay, yeah, yeah, and we were looking at essays and that was kind of always put to the side.

But when she did her first pass on the book, she took chunks of that and spread it out throughout the book. So happy I wrote that chapter because as it's, it wasn't tonally right for the book, but it was tonally right for the book. in, in moments and pieces and it helped paint stuff. So I feel like doing those exercises, not trying to game it, not trying to be like, I got the draft done.

I got it. I let the book surprise you. That to me was the best part of it. I love that part of creation. Anyway, it's like the intent versus what actually is executed is, is amazing. And you know, I, I, the most exciting part of the book for me was, The last eight weeks from Thanksgiving to January 22nd, where I just worked nonstop on the, on the edits, because it was like, that's when it started to really like, oh, this and that and pull this, oh, and this, and you could, you could tie things.

It's like, so it's never really done until it's done, done, you know? And I think I was waiting, I think I was waiting for some sort of magic bullet. Like I was going to hand in my book and then my editor back, here it is. And I was like, Oh, no, no, no. You know, there's so much you don't know. I think that's the other thing, too.

There's so much I didn't know about writing a book. Wow, I was shocked. And promoting it is a whole other beast. It's like, wow. I thought I'd done it before. I've done other things. It's a whole different monster. 

Zibby: Well, you're like out there. I mean, it's great. It's really wonderful what you've been doing. 

Paul: Oh, thanks.

I'm trying, you know, and I don't know what's too much, but I'm also like, the truth is, I'm proud of the book. 

Zibby: No, it's not too much. 

Paul: It's very good. 

Zibby: That's what you have to do. That's what yeah, right. 

Paul: Because it's like, I mean, I go to a bookstore and I see like a table full of Tom Selleck books, which is great.

And God bless Tom Selleck. But then, you know, and then I see my book, you know, on a shelf and there's four or five of them. I'm so thrilled to be in the store. Don't get me wrong, but it's hard to compete when you have a, like, Uh, table, a mountain, you know, Bill Maher's book, but the, uh, you know, when you go with Barnes and Noble, it's like at every cash register, checking out, like, how can you compete with that?

You can't it's so you, I have to go, I have to do it differently. 

Zibby: That's literally, I just wrote a book called blank. And it's like about that exactly. How publishers push certain books and they're like huge stacks. And like, how can the other person even compete? So the main character hands her book in blank as a commentary on the publishing.

Paul: Oh my God. Oh, I got to read this. I can't wait. I, cause it, it really is. It's that's the most fascinating part. It's like, you can't like it. It's almost built. It's built to work against you and you are out there. And again, and like, again, and there's other things people are like, Oh, I don't know. I don't know how to game the system.

I don't think there's a game system. The only way to game the system is like. to be like, not beg, but say like word of mouth and, and, and, and, and have like, people give on the tail, the tail, the tail, but it's like the, you know, it's like, but I'm very happy to like, that's, and I want that. Like, and I, and I guess I've talked to some people, especially people like comedians or people in my, in my field, they're like, Oh, yeah.

Well, I'm not going to promote the book. It's like, that's, that's their job. I'm like, well, no, no, no. I mean, if you care about, like, I spent a lot of time working on this. I have, I'm going to be promoting this book until, you know, and, and that the word of mouth has been the best thing in many respects. 

Zibby: Yeah.

Amazing. Oh my gosh. Paul, thank you so much. This is so fun to talk to you all day. It was awesome and yeah, just so great. So great. Thank you. I'm so glad you let us get to know you. 

Paul: I, well, I'm so happy and I will say this, not that this is a sales technique at all, but I will say, you know, according to your podcast, title, your podcast, no time to read.

The audio book is, I made it for lovers of audio books. Cause I am an audio book freak and I have extra clips and different things in there to make it a lot more fun. Cause I feel like. The carpool is where, uh, once the kids are dropped off, I'm, I'm back in, I'm in, uh, whatever I'm into. 

Zibby: Perfect. Perfect audio book plug as well.

Congratulations. And thank you so much for your time. 

Paul: Oh my gosh, thank you.