Zibby interviews debut romance author Nora Dahlia about PICK-UP, a witty and sweetly satisfying enemies-to-lovers rom-com set around school drop-off culture. Nora shares the inspiration behind her book—an amusing lack of salacious gossip at her kids’ school—and then delves into her novel’s deeper themes, from maintaining individuality as a mother to navigating life’s messy middle stage, where aging parents, growing children, and personal desires collide. Nora also shares her creative process and reveals why she incorporated multiple perspectives in the book.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Nora. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Pick-up, which is hilarious and awesome and fun and I love the way you write. Let me just by saying that.

Nora: Oh, thank you so much, Zibby. I'm so happy to be here to talk to you about it. And I'm so 

Zibby: Oh my gosh, it's so funny. I mean, just the way you observe everything is hilarious. Like anything, like, and the fact that you put in multiple points of view, so like all that sort of judgy stuff that people do and don't necessarily say out loud, like, you get to do that by being inside everybody else's head and like all the things that they're noticing about each other.

And it's just like your observational humor is so amazing. 

Nora: Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, I, I, I definitely am sort of fascinated by the idea that there's this huge sort of gulf between the way that we see ourselves and we think that other people see us and then also the way we see other people.

Just that idea that we have that sort of I guess sort of Instagram idea where it looks like everybody else's life is like perfect. And we think that we're failing, especially as mothers, when really like behind closed doors, everybody is just like trying to survive. 

Zibby: Yeah, pretty much. I mean, if people saw.

Some of the things that, anyway, whatever I want to go on, right? The other night I was literally Googling, like, how to deal with, like, XYZ with my kid. Like, I don't even know. Let me Google it. 

Nora: Exactly. 

Zibby: Okay. Well, back up and tell listeners what Pick Up is about. 

Nora: Okay. So, Pick Up is is, well, Pick Up was inspired when I was standing outside of school, my kids elementary school, after a drop off one morning with a bunch of parents.

And we were actually talking about how there was not enough salacious gossip at our school, that everybody was very well behaved and boring. And we had this, we sort of started talking about how like, you know, wouldn't this be sort of like the perfect environment for people to like meet and for sort of things to happen romantically?

And I suddenly was like, pick up, I'm going to write, I said to them, I'm going to write a rom com called Pick Up. And then I did. And so that's, that's the basic concept. It revolves around two divorced parents who meet in and around school drop off and pick up. It's enemies to lovers. So they at first don't really get along.

And then Because why not? They are whisked away to a Caribbean island. And then it's, it's a bit, became a bit about also just sort of like gender roles and gender politics and, you know, as women in particular, how our identities change when we become mothers and how we sort of get back to, you know, being autonomous humans again, once our children start to get older.

Zibby: Okay. But you don't even just do the mom stuff. You have the daughter stuff as well and how we're all in sort of this messy middle and what do you do when like your mom starts forgetting things and what is that all about and the fear of like parents getting older and kids getting older. How all of it is terrifying like all at the same time and like when do you carve out time for you and is that okay?

Like I love when, when Sasha first gets the freelance job. And she's like, Oh my gosh, wait, I'm actually like really excited about the prospect of leaving the kids and going somewhere fun. Like, I remember getting a freelance job when I was like in my stay at home days and just being like, Yes, like, someone has seen that I am like a person in here and like I can contribute.

And anyway, the way you, you wrote all that too, it's like, how do we find our identity when like there are so many forces against us? 

Nora: Yeah. I mean, I relate so much to that too, just what you're talking about. Like I was a freelance journalist for like a million years before I started writing books. And one of the things that I, Wrote about was travel and so I would go on these trips and I sort of maintained that in like the smallest way I possibly could when I even through having small children and every time I sort of readied to leave I would panic and be like, why did I decide to do this?

This was a horrible idea like everything terrible is going to happen. And then the minute I would like walk outside to go somewhere, like just for me, or get on an airplane and know that I was going to have a few days just for me, it was like such an incredible feeling of like freedom, you know, to just sort of be yourself again.

Zibby: Yep. 

Nora: Yeah. 

Zibby: I mean, this is like the crux of being a divorced person. parent and remarried, right? That every other weekend I'm like, oh, hello again. You know. 

Nora: Well, I have to admit, I am fascinated by that, like, like experience because it's kind of a, a brilliant thing to be able to have that kind of recovery time.

Like those sort of, you know, finite experience or separate experiences at the same time. 

Zibby: Not that I'm recommending it. It's obviously incredibly hard and I'd much rather have my kids all the time. But, you know, there is something to be said for the burnout, right? It's, it's exhausting. And we never, get to keep our catch our breath.

Like, how did I even do it? Like, anyway, so I love the book sort of taps into that and taps into divorce culture, but not in a way that non divorced people, you know, wouldn't get completely and obviously there were characters who are not divorced too. So anyway, I personally loved all of that. So. 

Nora: Oh, thank you so much.

Yeah. I feel like obviously there was not really a way to make also a romance in and around, um, a school in that way without it being divorced parents and like of a certain age, you know. My sister keeps teasing me that I set out to write a bromance and then I like, nor ed it, quote unquote, she said, because I sort of like ended up writing about those like identity pieces as well.

But that's the experience, you know, of walking through the world as. A woman in your forties, you know, or thirties or fifties or whatever it is, you know, yeah. 

Zibby: And the people who are these people on our side or are they not on our side, like the people at pickup and the people, you know, offering the cupcakes to the kids, you know, like all the things like, are they, are they helping or are they just totally judging and how do we feel about that?

I don't know. 

Nora: Yeah. No, for sure. For sure. I mean. Part of it also is like I grew up in New York City, which you're familiar with and I am Intimately familiar. Uh huh And then I went to college in California and I spent like many years in LA which you're also familiar with and then I came back and I had like this moment of Almost like culture clash because I had these friends that I grew up with who saw me like one way and Or who I, who I was a certain person with, you know, and then with kids and school and all that, like this whole other identity.

And of course, when we're, when we're parents and we meet people, people as parents, we want to present as like our most like well behaved selves. Like you can trust me, I'm responsible. I know how to make the organic cupcakes, whatever it is. You know, but beneath it all, we're still that other person. And so like, what happens when those, those worlds clash?

Like I started even thinking about like, what would happen if I was at, in my school world and suddenly like. My high school friends were like part of that, you know, yeah, I actually, I mean, I have that a lot 

Zibby: because a lot of people I knew from anyway, 

Nora: but yeah, do you feel like, I mean, do you feel like those are two different like identities for you or because they're so meshed at this point for you as, as it sort of become one?

Zibby: Well, now I feel like it's pretty similar, but I remember looking at another school that I went to before, like, that I went to for grade school, looking at that for my kids and seeing those girls in the lobby as grown ups and I'm like, I don't think I can handle this. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just like, I am totally not who I was then.

I don't think I can bridge this gap, you know? 

Nora: Yeah. You're like, how do I make that? Yeah. I mean, I, I think I have always felt like I'm in a slightly weird position as a parent because I'm freelance, but I work. Which means that I feel like I should be available for all the things, but like, actually I can't be available for all the things.

And so then you end up just like signing up for all the things and then you're failing at all the things. And I'm, I'm definitely not like the organic cupcake mom. Like I'm like the, I bought the cupcake at the store mom. And so I think that's part of it too. Like my like true awe. At some of the parents I see, like, running around achieving somehow all of these things at once.

Zibby: You know? I am not making cupcakes anymore. When I was a stay at home mom, I could, like, make the cupcakes and be around. 

Nora: Yeah. 

Zibby: But somehow, I always felt busy. But now, I'm definitely not doing that. 

Nora: Well, you're making a publishing empire, so that's 

Zibby: But the day to day reality and inner thought process, like, not being able to find anything.

I mean, like, forgetting to sign someone up, or the thing didn't work right, and like, why am I not on that email list? Like, all those things just feel so real, and I felt so much better reading it. Being like, oh, thank God, like, I'm not the only one who, like, constantly misses the messages because I forget to open WhatsApp and, like, I didn't know it was such and such a day at school and, like, I missed the dress down day or whatever.

Anyway, so I feel like, if nothing else, aside from the entertainment, this book is, like, a reassurance to parents everywhere that you are not the only one having a challenging time and dropping some balls. I'm so glad to hear that actually, that 

Nora: like means a lot if, if it, if it is that it means a lot to me actually.

Yeah. Cause I think that, I mean, just recently I was walking to school with my kids and I was like, there was like a kid walking in front of us with like a plastic Coke bottle taped to her head. And we were like, why is she wearing that? So weird. And the closer and closer we got to school, the more we started seeing people with like weird things on their heads.

And then it suddenly like dawned on me and I was like, Oh, I think it's crazy hat day. 

Zibby: Yep. 

Nora: It's like, sorry. 

Zibby: I have this all the time. Even like Halloween, I'm like, I didn't have anything orange. And my, one of my kids is freaking out. Like, what am I supposed to wear? Like, I don't, like, wait, I don't know. I can't manage this.

Like, I didn't have anything orange really either. I had the one thing in my closet. 

Nora: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

Zibby: And then of course the, the banter is so good. I mean, just so, I love having, you know, the point of view of like such a confident woman that she could just be so, you know, that she could speak this way to such a hot guy, you know, especially in the beginning and just be like, I'm owning it.

I'm not going to pander to this guy. And even though I noticed him, like, I'm just going to do me. And that was also really awesome. 

Nora: Oh, I'm, I'm glad, yeah, no, I mean, that's just like what I like to read and watch. So I guess that's, you know, made me want to also create it. You know, when I was like little, like when I, I mean, not that little, but when I was 10 years old, so I could have been reading for myself, but, but I was still sometimes read books like with my mom and she read me Pride and Prejudice.

And so I just, I blame her. I mean, yeah. I was just like, Oh, so you meet the guy and he's kind of a jerk, but you stand up to him and then the thing happens, you know? 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Nora: So that's, I've always been a sucker for enemies to lovers myself. Like that's what I love reading. So, and even like the banter of like growing up on the banter of like moonlighting and like those kinds of shows.

Yes. It was just so good. 

Zibby: Moonlighting. I haven't thought about that in a while. 

Nora: I know. I know. It's been a long time. I'm sure that it's problematic in certain ways. I mean, whatever. But it was just, the banter was so good. 

Zibby: And I even love how Sasha stops running after three miles, even though she's not. at the place she's supposed to get because like that's the time she's going to do in the distance and like she's done like I totally get that too and how it might not make sense to anybody else but like goal achieved on to the next you know I'm not going to change the goals like so.

Nora: Yeah just so great and that's like the one thing I feel like also she's it's like she doesn't have to prove to anyone else you know like that's her thing it's for her you know no one's to tell her what she has to do 

Zibby: no so good and I mean I know this is ridiculous, but when she had to leave the kids with a friend and the parents and felt really badly about that, because like, I've been traveling seven, you know, I usually, you know, usually they're with my ex, but sometimes I'm like, should I try to arrange a sleepover or whatever?

Like you forget that actually sometimes those weekends are super fun. Like you don't have to always be full of guilt. You could make a new experience for your kids and enrich their lives and help them. And it doesn't always have to be about you, the person. 

Nora: Yeah. And I think it gives them also like some autonomy, you know, like a sense that they can survive in the world without you a little bit, you know, and I just, I firmly believe that thing they tell you about how, like the happier you are, the better it is for your kids.

Zibby: Yes. 

Nora: And so if that means you need breaks, then take the breaks, especially if they're like on a Caribbean island with you. A hot man. 

Zibby: Yep. I would like, somehow, Pippa, who's the character that I've written about in Blank, and I just wrote another novel with her and everything, and like, now I'm like, so in that headspace, like, I would like Pippa and Sasha to like, go to coffee, and I want to hear that conversation.

Nora: Oh my god, I love that idea. 

Zibby: Maybe somehow we can Like have a meetup and fiction world or I don't know. 

Nora: Yeah, we could do like spin offs like when they would do like, like the Jefferson and Shirley with like happy days. 

Zibby: Yeah, exactly. 

Nora: Oh my God, that would actually be amazing. 

Zibby: Right? I want to. 

Nora: Okay. 

Zibby: We'll try to, I think that would be really funny.

I mean, other people know how to write with other people. I don't really know, but there's a way. 

Nora: Same. I've never, 

Zibby: I've never tried. Um, but 

Nora: I'm amazed by it. Like I'm like a big, um, Christina Lauren and I'm, I'm always in awe of, I'm like, how, how? 

Zibby: Yeah. Maybe you just like speak in the voice of your character and like, you just like add, like, I don't know how you could do a chapter each.

Okay, I'm getting too in the weeds, but I know. Well, speak about the weeds actually a little bit and how you wrote this book and was it always multiple perspectives? Did you think about writing it from one person's perspective? Did you? Outline? Like just what's the, what was the whole process?

And was it just really fun to write? 

Nora: Yeah, I mean, actually, it really was this one, you know, sometimes the process is different depending on the experience. But in this case, I was, I was coming off of a really long, like dry spell writing wise, you know, as, as sort of my day job. In addition to like the journalism I do.

I I go straight and book coach nonfiction, well actually fiction as well, but largely nonfiction books. And I had just come off a couple of years of, of working on books about really serious topics like sexual assault, the Holocaust, like things like that. And I just like, had not had the mental space to write my own stuff and write fiction.

I was writing like little blurbs here or there when I had like inspiration, but mostly I wasn't. And it was really bumming me out. Like I was really like sad about it. And suddenly like all of the projects culminated. And I just had this like month and a half to two month break where like, I kind of had nothing.

And I was less, I was just like. This is the most amazing thing. And, and right before that, I had that idea for pickup and I was like, I'm just going to sit down and write this thing. And it really like flowed. And initially I wrote it in this very, very stripped down way. Like I actually had to go back in and like flesh it out a bit.

I had just been reading less is lost. 

If you, I don't know if you've read that book, but I, which is, is written all from the perspective of a, an outside narrator who's like watching sort of the character or observing the character's life, even from a distance. And so I think that was part of it. But also, and it's also very, very funny.

But also, again, I was so fascinated by this idea of like the way we watch each other, like this sort of voyeur. experience we're all having where we see the same people within our world that pick up every day. Maybe we know them. Maybe we don't, you know, maybe we've decided we don't like someone just by the way they look or act with their kid or whatever it is.

And so that's where sort of the third perspective idea came in that this, this idea of like, there's this relationship between these two people. And then there's this other person who's like watching it from a distance and has this whole other perspective on it. So yeah, so it always had the third. The third perspective.

Yeah. Actually, I'm sorry. I'm just remembering in this moment. I can't believe I didn't remember this until this moment. Actually, I didn't, he didn't have a perspective initially. 

Zibby: Oh, ..

Nora: It was just Sasha, the main character. And then like the voyeur, like Caitlin. And then I added him in. I was like, he, he, he gets a voice.

Zibby: Oh, I'm glad he had a voice. I like his parts. Yeah. 

Nora: Oh, good. Yeah, he needed a voice. He definitely did. 

Zibby: Yeah. It's always, cause I'm curious, like I can put myself in the shoes of the women, but what is he thinking? And I don't know. 

Nora: Yeah. 

Zibby: Not that I could, but you know what I mean. 

Nora: Yeah. And like, you want to know who he is and it's just so hard.

Well, it feels like, um, more balanced, I think, you know, yeah. 

Zibby: And so you just said, why did you decide to use Noradalia as the name for this book? 

Nora: So there were like a bunch of reasons. One was just that, you know, in romance, sometimes people do that. They use pet names and, um, often it's like your first name plus a, you know, a made up last name.

And I like mined my family history for a good last name. And the last names were all like. Feinberg, like, Edelberg, like, a sexy romance name, you know, and I toyed with, like, using a literary character that I loved or something like that, but that just, it just felt like it was just trying too hard. So I ultimately just dropped my last name and used my middle name, which is what Dahlia is.

And at first I was talking to my sister and she was like, that's not a name. But then the more we said it, the more it sounded like one. And then the more it sounded like a romance name. So that, that was part of it. And it allowed me like the freedom to not feel confined by, The way that I've written previously or what I've written previously, you know, it felt like the freedom to just like start from a different place and do something really different.

And it'll be really interesting for me just personally to see going forward, like if I'm going back to like the sort of upmarket commercial fiction or if I'm going to stay in this like romance universe and, but actually lastly, like the, and this is something you might actually really know about, but I had no idea about.

They also, the marketing people were like, have you ever noticed that in a bookstore your books are always on the floor? Because Zalivansky and it's true, it, they are, but it never occurred to me. Like, I mean, what am I going to do? That's my last name. And they were like, what if you could have books at eye level?

Like, what if people could actually see your books? You know? So that was like really fascinating to me just to think about even. 

Zibby: So interesting. Yeah. I was actually, I was going through some catalogs online for the bookstore and by the time I got to Zibby Books, I was like so tired. That was like the last publisher, I mean like, I'm like, it's a miracle.

I don't even know what I'm still doing here. I should have logged off by now. I had plenty when I got to the S's, like, so yeah, I was thinking that I should have done like a, I should have called it like A Zippy Book or I don't know, something earlier. 

Nora: Yeah. Yeah. Well, true. It's true. You probably, whenever they do the first name thing, you've had the same experience I have, which is back of the line, back of the line.

But it's, I I've made like some of my best friends that way. I have like Rachel Zimmerman and Darren Ackerman and 

Zibby: Yes. Front of the line in terms of height, very short, and then back of the line for name, so. I mean, same, exactly. Now at least we're not lining up so much. So are you going to write another, I mean, I know you said you're, you're curious as to where your career is going to take you now.

I am voting for another one of these, like, could you do drop off after this?

Nora: Oh my god, actually, that's genius. I've already written a next one. It's not like edited or anything yet, but it's called Backslide, and it's like, yeah, it's in the same vein. It's also enemies to lovers and sort of same sense of humor, hopefully, same kind of like push pull.

And I'm always interested in everything I write and sort of these, moments in life where we find ourselves like stuck again. Like it like periodically happens where it's like we need to like start the next evolution, but how do we do it? 

Zibby: Yep. 

Nora: And so it's, it's also, it's about that too. Only this, it takes place mostly in Sonoma.

Zibby: Ah. 

Nora: Yeah. Well, I also with the travel writing, I, I keep, I keep just setting things in places that I've either like lived in or visited on press trips because of writing about a new hotel or whatever it is. So this, this takes place at two different, loosely based on two different like hotels I've stayed at in on the coast and inland there.

Zibby: Oh, well, that sounds fun. Sounds like a fun book tour. 

Nora: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

Zibby: Um, so do you have, have any advice for aspiring authors? I know you all different types of writing. 

Nora: Oh, advice for aspiring authors. I think, I feel like the most valuable advice is to just keep writing. I think that most often what I see is that people have an idea and they start.

And then there's always this point at which you decide what you're working on is stupid or a bad idea or someone's already done it or whatever it is not working and you stop or you're tempted to stop. And really the difference between creating something and not creating something is whether you stop at that moment.

So I think it's really like to push past those moments of difficulty or frustration or self doubt and to just keep To keep going because it's so much easier once you actually have a draft of something to go back in and and make it better or change it, you know, yeah, and the the publishing world can be, you know, a challenging place to navigate.

It can be intimidating and Difficult to break into, but if you're tenacious enough, and I've seen it so many times with friends of mine, you know, women I've been in writing groups with who were just like so prolific and just worked so hard and kept writing, kept writing and queried like hundreds of agents.

And if you, if you do it long enough and you were really, weren't really willing to work hard and rewrite and do all these things, like you can have that experience. Um, so yeah, it's just the overall keep writing, I think. 

Zibby: Love it. If you could pick one fun, stressful day of dress up for school that doesn't already exist that is not silly sock day or silly hat day or wear a thing.

Is there something funny you would add? 

Nora: This is kind of funny. Actually, they had at my kids school, they do, instead of a Halloween day, they make kids, they have the kids dress up as literary characters. Um, my husband has a graphic novel, like early reader graphic novel series he writes. And the main character is my daughter.

Oh. So I was like, who are you going to go as for like literary character day? And she was like, myself. And That's hilarious. Who is your, what does your husband write? He writes, well this series is called Daddy and the Beanstalk. 

Zibby: Oh. 

Nora: And it's like a father telling a daughter these, like, sort of traditional stories, but they're, like, comedic, and he's telling them as if they actually happened to him, like, in the 70s in D.

C., where he grew up. They're pretty good. They're good for, like, grown ups and for kids, but, yeah. So that, that was pretty funny. What would I have my kids do? I always think it's funny when they do like 80s day, like day and the kids are like, what is the 80s? Like they don't even know what they're doing. I actually was just sent a picture of myself yesterday from a friend, like a childhood friend in head to toe red, like red high tops, red tights, red dress, red.

So maybe I would do like a monochromatic day. 

Zibby: Oh, I like that. Yeah. Love it. All right. We'll just give, give, uh, give us lots of warning. 

Nora: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But not orange. Nobody can wear orange. 

Zibby: Okay. Perfect. Perfect. All right, Dora. Thank you. Congratulations on PICA. Really loved it. So funny and can't wait for your next one.

Nora: Zibby, thank you so much. It's so fun to talk to you and I'm so excited to be doing also an event with you in LA and yes, I just, I just love working with you. So thank you. I really appreciate it. 

Zibby: You, too. All right. Take care. All right. 

Nora: Take care. Have a great day. 

Zibby: You, too. Bye bye.