Zibby chats with author Nikkya Hargrove about MAMA, a searing, heart-filled memoir about a young Black queer woman fresh out of college who adopts her baby brother after their incarcerated mother dies, determined to create the kind of family she never had. Nikkya shares what it was like to raise her half-brother, Jonathan, delving into the challenges of balancing her own aspirations with the serious responsibility of caring for him. She and Zibby also discuss the memoir's themes of generational struggle, complex family dynamics, societal judgment, resilience, self-discovery, and finding your voice.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Nakia. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Mama, a Queer Black Woman's Story of a Family Lost and Found.

Congratulations. 

Nikkya: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I know it's a mouthful. 

Zibby: No, it's a, it's a great title and this book was so powerful. It was so good. I really loved it. I'm so impressed by the whole project, by your strength and your life, and then also the writing of it, so I'm a huge fan. Congratulations.

Nikkya: Thank you. I appreciate your compliments. It was, uh, quite the journey in many ways. 

Zibby: Okay. So for those who don't totally know, even though I read the subtitle, why don't you give a little more background on your life story, which is the story of the book. We can just start with, well, I guess we can just start with the main through line and then Go from there.

Nikkya: Yeah, so the main through line is I had the birth of my half brother right after my graduation from college. And he was born to our mother, whom we shared. I have different fathers, but she was pregnant my senior year of college and gave birth not long after I graduated. And he was born and he was the result of a relapse.

His birth was the result of a relapse that she had having spent the prior night using crack cocaine. And so he was born and it was sort of like, what happens next? He's here. She cannot take care of him. The state took him away. We were in New York at the time. And, you know, and I, I could not let him go to foster care and I could not live with myself knowing that I was an able bodied sound mind having just graduated from college.

I could not let him go to foster care and be lost in a system and I may never find him. So I committed to, to raising him. And it is the story of our journey to figuring out what parenthood could look like, even though I did not anticipate fully being his parent, but our mom passed away when he was four months old.

And so I, I took him and the book is, is dedicated to him. Think he has yet to finish reading it, I believe he's halfway through, but it is, you know, a story of the struggles we faced as mother and son. Uh, it is the story that I faced with, uh, struggles I had with my own mother, who I mentioned was addicted to drugs my entire life.

She was in and out of jail, and then prison, and then I found love, and my life sort of changed, again, when I, when I found my partner. 

Zibby: Oh, my gosh. Journey is an understatement here from, for this entire thing. 

Nikkya: I know. I don't know another word. 

Zibby: I know. We need a better word for Journey. I know. So at the end of the book, you mentioned that Jonathan was 17.

How old is he now? 

Nikkya: He'll be 18 in November. 

Zibby: Aw. 

Nikkya: He's heading off to college in the day after the book comes out, actually. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh, that is so perfect. You couldn't have written that better. You couldn't have written that ending any better. 

Nikkya: I don't know. I think I would rewrite it to another week, but. 

Zibby: You know, I was so struck.

Well, first of all, mama also doesn't refer to you. Mama is what your mom actually called you growing up, which is interesting because you were, in effect, her caretaker for so long, sort of having to. Hold that mantle. And then, of course, also your mama to your, to Jonathan, a mama to, to Jonathan, your, you know, so this sort of dual role of, you know, who are we raising anyway?

And what does that look like? And, and how do you even possibly find time for you in the midst of caring for everybody else? 

Nikkya: Right. I mean, when you're going through it, right, you just plow through it. And so the book was an opportunity for me to sort of pause and really reflect on, on what that time truly meant for me as, uh, as a young adult, but also as a recent college graduate, you know, there are things you sort of just want to be and do, and I couldn't, I couldn't do those, just decide to go travel and visit Italy or Paris.

I really had the responsibility of raising him and I don't regret it. Um, you know, now, now that I have a partner to go to Paris and Italy, I'd much rather do it now as a, as a family. And so I did, of course. During that time, I would have loved to have been in Paris instead of in family court, but I think, you know, I think everything happened the way that it was meant to, and I wouldn't, I really wouldn't change any part of that.

Maybe, you know, I talk about it in the book, but maybe the custody battle that we went through with Jonathan's biological father. I don't know. I probably would change that. Yeah. Um, but I really believe that we are as humans following a journey much bigger than, than us. And so we all have a responsibility in that.

And, and for me, it was standing up and, and, and being, being that hope for Jonathan that I really didn't have in being able to call somebody mom and knowing that they were going to show up for me. 

Zibby: You had this, this strong belief, right? When Jonathan was born, you kind of knew you were like, This is my response, but I'm going to do this and you have this beautiful scene where you're holding him for the first time and like whispering to him and you're like, I am not going anywhere.

You can count on me. And it like brought tears to my eyes because you were like, I don't know how you didn't know how it was going to happen, but you knew that you were going to be his person. And you knew that from that moment, no matter what came in your way and so much came in your way and you were just completely single minded.

Like it was meant to be. 

Nikkya: Right. Right, because if I let doubt get in my mind, then that fear creeps in, and then it's just a, a hamster wheel of, of messiness, and I, I didn't have time for that messiness, honestly. You know, I, I had to really be, or try to be one step ahead of what, you know, Child Protective Services was coming, you know, to us for.

Or, you know, my mom was still alive for four months, and those were, those were hard months, you know, navigating her life. My life, his life, and needs. So those are four trying months, right? 

Zibby: You have these moments of juxtaposition from when your life was following this one trajectory and then another, and I feel like it all came together in this moment where you're confiding in a friend of yours in college, and you hadn't told anyone about your mom, and then finally you were like, okay, my mom's in prison and the friend was so nice and was like, you should have told us like blah, blah, blah.

But you had this, you were like carrying around all these secrets, which of course are so debilitating really, the effect of carrying all these secrets with you and having all this, well, like the person next to you is just like doing whatever in college. I mean, thinking back on those moments and like, All of that.

Just talk about the intensity of that emotion. 

Nikkya: So carrying secrets is very, lack of a better word, heavy, right? For me, having been the daughter of a woman who was incarcerated and then sold drugs and ran from the police, I mean, I carried all of that, you know, knowing who she was. My mom was very honest and when she wanted to be and then when she didn't want to be, wasn't.

And for her, it was natural. She would either tell the truth or either lie. And I just would be quiet. I wouldn't share and I would keep things in. And when I got to college was when I was really able to, to live in my true form as a queer woman, I was learning what I, or who I was as a black woman. And then I befriended a woman who.

became a very good friend, Betsida, who was also a woman of color, um, and from the Dominican Republic. And we connected on that basic level before I felt comfortable sharing with her first. And I sort of tested the waters with her first to see how she would react. And then I said, you know, maybe I can tell other people, maybe they will react in the same way.

And I didn't want pity from anyone. I didn't want multiple questions from anyone. I wanted to just Say what I needed to say and, and leave it. And that's also what I like about writing. Like I'm able to put it on the page and walk away and let it fall where it will. And that is also very, very therapeutic.

Zibby: Yes. The power of writing. 

Nikkya: As you know. 

Zibby: Yes. Well, you, you also, when you talk about your own relationships and finding love and all of that, you, you talk about a moment with your ex when your mom, needed a place to go and you decided to sort of talk to her about it. I'm forgetting her name now. I'm so sorry.

What was her name? Kate. And you were like, I can't just accept my mom. Now, even though she has nowhere to go, I have to talk to Kate. And Kate was like, absolutely not. And you went with that and you were like, okay, even though, you know, you were really conflicted about it, but you didn't like the way said it.

It's like, we can say all we want about our family, but like when someone else says it, you're, we're like, what? 

Nikkya: So true. So true. You know, they're, they're cheerleaders and they're judges. 

Zibby: Yeah. So you go from, from that, where you feel this sort of betrayal, and then we get to see your whole arc. So tell me a little bit about, about that journey, if you will.

Nikkya: I don't even know where to begin. That was such a complicated relationship. Zippy? 

Zibby: Talk about therapy. I'll just be your therapist of the day. You 

Nikkya: can just, you know. I love it. You know, and it's free, which makes it even better. So I, uh, met Kate around the time that I was also graduating from college and we, it was sort of love at first sight or lust at first sight.

And we did the stereotypical sort of lesbian U Haul thing of 60 very quickly. You And so we were wrapped up in that and it felt great until it didn't. And it, things become complicated in relationships when you meet the other family, right? And so there was no hiding who my family was. I was always honest about who, who, where I came from and, and, um, my not so beautiful upbringing.

And so was she, and we, had this relationship. We live together. We had dogs together. And when it came time for me to make a decision that would really, now that I think about it, have impact my mother's life, I hope in a positive way, having let her come and stay with us. I understand why Kate was very adamant and said no.

And she was very clear as to why she would say no, but I can't help but to, to wonder if I would have said yes to my mother if she would not have been homeless and would not have lived in a car and would not have given birth early. And, but on the flip side, it wasn't my responsibility. And Kate's response allowed me an easy out.

And, you know, maybe there was something cowardly about that, but it was necessary. for me at the time. It was hard. I wasn't one to cry a lot back then, and I didn't cry about it, but I was sad about it. And my mother was sad about it. And I think my mother was really tired towards the end. And, you know, this was long before she died, but still, it was a difficult conversation for me to have with her.

No, you can't come, come live here. with us. And then the matriarch of my family, my grandmother, um, the woman who raised me, called me and like, she's so, she was so good at it, but sort of guilt tripped me. Like, hey, why do you say no to your mom? And I had to sort of stand up to her too, in my quiet little voice.

I, I, you know, explained why. And then as relationships go, of course, The family didn't like Kate anymore because Kate said no, you know, it's a whole thing. Um, so it was a great lesson for me, you know, ultimately Kate and I did not work out even though I share some parts in the book where one might think we are going to work out, but we do not.

And I am grateful for that experience of being in the relationship that I was in with Kate during the time of my life that I needed it. 

Zibby: Well, I feel like the whole moment is just one example of you finding your voice and like everybody in some ways sort of breaks away from family and realizes like who they are.

And I feel like that was, even though you didn't necessarily want that to be the time or, or the way it's like one of those. inflection points when, like, you are coming into your, your own and, and that's saying a lot. I mean, you also had so many powerful women in your life, you know, your grandmother, your aunt, like, you know, you, it was hard.

This was hard. This is a hard path. Um, it's, and yet you did it. It's, it's like setting such a good example role model. Like, no matter what, you have to listen to your own voice and who that is. So, I don't know. I found it inspiring. I mean, the whole story is inspiring, but. 

Nikkya: Well, thank you. I think, um, you know, there's a process in, in writing.

This is my first book, so I don't have any. But the process of writing this book, I could see my voice growing stronger and stronger, you know, as time goes on and, and, you know, where I am today and where I was then feel so far removed from one another. But I'm still learning how to use my voice and when to use it and the right words.

You know, I'm in Aries city and I really mean, and. You know, my wife jokes all the time about how, you know, out in the world, they don't get the real me, but in our house, they get the real me. And so I'm learning what the, where the balance lies, you know, between being honest and clear with whomever needs to hear my voice and being mean, because I think I can be very quick to respond.

And when I am, Good things don't come to be. 

Zibby: I don't advertise when I snap at the kids or whatever, you know. It's never pretty. 

Nikkya: No. No. No, and that all speaks to the fact that, you know, that is a side that everyone needs to see as well. So I, I'm learning, you know, I'm 42 and I'm currently the same age my mom was when she passed away.

And I carried some anxiety getting to 42 and then remember that I'm very different and I lived a very, very different life than my mom. And so there didn't need to be fear as I blew out my 42 candles. Laughter. 

Zibby: Well tell me more about when you decided to write this book and sort of the goals of the book and the process of it and all that.

I mean, this is really raw, open, emotional, putting it out there as all good memoirs have to do, right? You have to go there and you did. And so it's, it's incredibly emotionally poignant. So when did you decide, how did you decide all of that? 

Nikkya: I decided when I handed in my senior thesis at Bard College, and I'm sitting in front of my board of professors, and I'm mad because I got a B and not the A that I wanted on it.

And my professor says, you know, I would pay to read this. And I was like, huh, fascinating. So my senior thesis was about the effects of incarceration on the family system. And so the memoir really was born out of that back in 2005. And so I kept Writing things that did not come to be a draft for anything, but I would just write because I loved it and I still very much love that the act of writing.

And so a friend of mine, Kara, reached out to me. I think it was 2000, I don't know, 15, something like that and said, Hey, what do you, what do you think about writing a personal essay about adopting? Um, And I was like, for what? For who? And she's like, I don't know, I might have an opportunity in Elle magazine.

And I said, okay, sure. I like Elle, right? And so it, the book really started with that essay. Um, again, um, I'd put it to bed, I'd just, done what I needed to do for, I don't know, six, seven years of raising Jonathan and getting, you know, a career and et cetera. And so the book really was born out of that L essay.

And then I started freelancing and I'm, You know, I mentioned that I'm an Aries, so I like goals, and I set a goal to, like, get into a different publication every single month, or when that didn't work, it was every other month, and as I kept writing, I decided that I needed to really get serious about writing a book, and the goal, the sole goal for me in writing this book is simply so that One person who picks it up can say, ah, I am not alone.

And there is hope. I am a firm believer that all we need is hope. And if we have that hope and we have that vision of what we want, we'll get it. But you can't lose sight of that goal and that hope, because like I said, fear will set in and once fear grips you and takes hold for me, It's over, you know, and so if you, if you pick up my book and you read it and you get to that last page, I want you to close it and say, Okay, I got this.

I can do this, whatever this is. And I know my story is not, you know, it's not a typical story, right? It's not, it's not the ending. I think that people, Would expect having been where I was. And I think that's a little jarring for people, but I could not have done and accomplish the things that I accomplished one without the community that I built along the way.

The women that have taught me so much about what to do and what not to do. But if I didn't have hope. You know, if I didn't have hope I, I was born one pound and 10 ounces and I survived during a time when no one was really in the 80s. So I had the fight in me and I still very much do, much to my wife's dismay as of late, but So it's like, what?

You want to do what? 

Zibby: I'm offering therapy but not couples counseling today, so. 

Nikkya: Oh. 

Zibby: Uh, maybe next time. 

Nikkya: Come on. 

Zibby: Well, speaking of your ending, is it okay if I read because it's so beautiful the way you ended the book? Sure. Can I read? I don't know, part of this from the last two pages, but as I write this, Jonathan's 17th birthday is approaching and I am not ready.

Time has gone by so fast and yet so slow and we have weathered many storms, but when asked why he has two moms or where his dad is, he says, Jonathan can answer with confidence. There are times when he needs to teach others about inclusivity, about queerness, about non traditional families. Just as heterosexual moms of color must arm their kids with appropriate responses to all the questions and microaggressions that come their way, Danushka and I as queer parents must do the same.

And then I'm just going to go further down the page. We have made a home full of love with photos of so many family memories lining our walls side by side with our kids artwork. We randomly leave sticky notes for each other on the television, on walls, on bathroom mirrors, saying things like, I love you very much and have a wonderful day.

You are the best. And then the last sentence, last part, you said, Home is where there is life and love. And as I saw my children look around and up in this small village, I felt immense gratitude. With my family, I am no longer lost. I am found. That I am. So good. Oh my gosh. Thank you. Thank you. It's really moving.

It's just really moving. Anyway. 

Nikkya: It's so interesting to hear someone else read my words. I truly, truly felt lost and scared and all the emotions that you can imagine that I would would have felt. I felt and I have to be grateful every day that I'm on the other side of that. And my family keeps me whole, and they drive me insane.

So, for me, both can live together. 

Zibby: You have any, um, not, not tips per se, but thoughts on making yourself a new model of being a mother from what you had been given yourself? Like, how to, how to forge your own path when the role model is not necessarily the way you want to follow it. I didn't say that very well.

You know what I mean? 

Nikkya: I know what you mean. I'm still learning. I can point out, you know, all the things that my mother did wrong or all the ways I wish my grandmother would have allowed me to call her mom or the many times, but I think I'm still really learning what being a good mom means. And I think that.

Changes from time to time, you know, sometimes it changes when the kids change ages or grades, but I do know that at the heart of being a quote unquote good, good mom. It starts with dealing with your own stuff, if you will. 

Recognizing your scars and figuring out how to put a Band Aid on them. Because at the end of the day, we need to show up for our kids.

And if that means going to therapy, it means going to therapy. If that means not buying an extra coffee that day because the kid needs a new violin, that's what it means. So it just 

Zibby: That's a cheap, that's a cheap violin. One coffee. 

Nikkya: Well, you know, I get multiple coffees a day. So, okay. I'm not pulling on from any real life thing happening right now.

My kid wants a violin and I'm petrified. 

Zibby: We have a trumpet situation going on here. 

Nikkya: Oh. 

Zibby: I get it from the school. I don't have to buy it, but it's very loud. Yeah. Yeah. 

Nikkya: Yes. Yes. We're working on that. Yep. We're working on the school. So yeah, I think, I think. Defining good mother needs to be something that you define for yourself.

You know, if it's not repeating some of the things your mom repeated, then okay, great. But I think, I think we all have the power to create that for ourselves. 

Zibby: I love that. Are you going to keep writing? You have another book? What are you, what's your plan? 

Nikkya: Yes. Yes. And yes, the next book, you know, I, I, I do the therapy thing.

I'm not as consistent with it as I would like, but I do, I do it. So what I discovered in therapy is that I have complex PTSD, which, you know, we don't have time to get into, but the book that I'm writing will, I'll explore that. And, um, my daughters are very upset that They don't have a book written about them, so I will be including them in book number two, and it'll be a story about not only my journey to understanding what CPTSD is, but also the journeys of other parents.

Um, so that will be, that is book number two. 

Zibby: Amazing. Congratulations. 

Nikkya: Thank you. 

Zibby: Nakia. Thank you so much for all of it. It's just thank you. 

Nikkya: Thank you. 

Zibby: Thank you for sharing. Thank you and helping others. It's really amazing. 

Nikkya: Well, thank you for taking the time with me and this was great. So thank you. 

Zibby: Thank you.

Okay. 

Nikkya: Have a good day. Bye. 

Zibby: You're welcome. Bye. Bye.