Philanthropist, filmmaker, and former US ambassador Nicole Avant joins Zibby to discuss her raw and relentlessly optimistic memoir, THINK YOU’LL BE HAPPY. Nicole delves into the tragic event that inspired her book—the murder of her mother during a home invasion—and shares how she has tried to turn her pain into something that can help and inspire others. She also talks about the lessons her parents taught her, her healing process after the tragedy, her experience as the first black woman and the youngest US ambassador to the Bahamas ever, and her decision to prioritize family over career.


Zibby: Welcome, Nicole. Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss your beautiful memoir.

I think you'll be happy moving through grief with grit, grace, and gratitude. Congratulations. 

Nicole: Thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here. 

Zibby: It's like a happy sad moment because I wish you didn't have to write this book because of the events that precipitated it, but you turned it into something beautiful for other people to help them through their journeys and inspire people and all of that.

So thanks for that. 

Nicole: Thank you. That was the intention. You know, I was like, well, this terrible thing has happened and I'm all about transmuting as much as possible. It's always my intention, just whatever it is, if I at least try to transmute it into something good or that some good come out of something tragic or sad or could be betrayed, whatever it is, and any type of negativity.

And I, I really didn't want people to feel alone. I felt so alone and I thought, you know what, if I can write this book and give it as an offering. To the universe. And I just literally said to the universe, just whomever needs this book, may it reach them in divine order and divine time, may it reach them.

And I'm so happy that it has, you know, I'm so happy that people don't feel alone in the letters that I receive. And, you know, thank you for. Seeing me and hearing me and understanding and just giving a different perspective or giving a different mindset. So, so I'm, I'm happy that the transmutation energy kind of worked out.

Zibby: Yeah. Worked its magic. 

Nicole: Yeah. It worked. It worked its magic. 

Zibby: Can you tell listeners what happened with your mom? 

Nicole: So on very early morning on December 1st in 2021, There was a home invasion at my parents house. My parents have lived in the same house in Beverly Hills for over 52 years, 53 years. And unfortunately, my mom and the intruder had an encounter and he shot her.

And then fled. And my mom was rushed to the hospital and she, you know, died shortly after she arrived. There was no way they could perform the surgeries that they needed to. My mom was 81 years old, you know, so she wouldn't have not been able to, I mean, she would have had so many surgeries and she would have had a miserable, miserable life after that.

So from that, in that moment, you know, my 92 year old father, uh, he was 91 at the time actually came to live with us. immediately. I just brought him home from the hospital and tried to create a safe environment for him. And all of a sudden I became a caregiver in a way that I was not prepared for. I didn't have a manual.

I didn't have anything, but really I, what I realized is that no one does. I mean, we do and thank God for, you know, you know, people's different faiths, you know, I understand that's what it's for in religion, but it really was, we just have to figure it out as we go along. You do have to take it one day at a time.

Sometimes it's one minute at a time. And my intention was always, I want to do the next right thing. Whatever needs to be done, that's what I'm going to do. And I'm going to do it with as much love and as much integrity as I possibly can. 

Zibby: And isn't it one of your parents, didn't your dad, was it your mom or dad who always told you that just to do the right next, the next.

Nicole: Mom always said, when you're ever, you're confused and you don't know what to do, just say, I have this moment.

And in this moment, I'm going to do the next right thing. Cause that's really all you have. Five minutes ago was five minutes ago. It's never coming back. You know, she'd always love to say to me, you cannot unscramble the egg. Everybody wants to unscramble the egg and then we torture ourselves trying to make something that's happened that you can't change and we want it to be fixed.

We want it to be different than what it was. And that's the power of letting go. That's what I've learned in my lifetime of, oh, this is what it means about forgiveness. This is what it means about letting go. It's letting go of what you were hoping that didn't happen, or you wanted a different circumstance or you wanted a different outcome, but you do have to accept what is before you can even make a change of where you want to be.

And the acceptance doesn't mean that you, you know, you don't have to like what it was, but, but whatever it is, it could be a betrayal. It could be a disappointment. It could be somebody walking, whatever it is. The acceptance is really the key to freedom. 

I have found, because that's a healing journey can start once you accept.

Zibby: Hard to accept something that you just so desperately don't want to have, have, have had happen. Yes. Yeah. I think in life, we're always in the mindset of like, we can fix this. We can do something about this. Like death is the one thing like that. There is literally nothing, there's no way you can fix it.

And I feel like, Once anyone gets to that point and they're just like, Oh my gosh, I am completely powerless in this, you know, and nothing I do matters. I just have to find a way to live with it. I think that is a total shock to the world order and the system. 

Nicole: It really is. And you made a very good point of I just have to find a way to live with this and deal with this.

So many deaths are different. My father's death, for example, was very different from my mom. It was peaceful. He was at home. He was in his room around his books. We had his Frank Sinatra and Duke Ellington playing for him. And, and also he was 92 and a half. I mean, I wasn't in denial. It was like his life.

He lived a life. A full life and the blessing of living a full life and not being sick, you know, he wasn't in diapers. He didn't have to, you know, I mean, it was really, it was such a blessing to at least have been given that where I could walk him to the other side, so to speak with dignity and with love and, and him knowing that he was so loved while he was crossing over. But death is, you know, it's the hardest thing we all go through. Yet it is the one thing that is for sure, 100 percent guaranteed that we are all going to, we're all going to leave and everyone that we love is going to leave. And everything around us is going to leave. Dog.

Zibby: Let's just, let's just leave everybody in a great mood, Nicole. You're going to die and you're going to die and everyone is going to die. 

Nicole: Here's the transmutation of that. Because we know that, that gives us the license and the freedom and the intention to really live. Life is a privilege. It is a gift.

When you know that, you know, my dad used to say, you come with a number, you end with a number and your dash is your life. The dash in between your two numbers is your life for you to live it and create it the, to the best of your ability. And I think that, that we have forgotten. Really to live and how to live and live.

And that's why I wanted to put grit, grace, and gratitude in the title, because we need the grit, grace, and gratitude to live because life is as beautiful as it is. And as much of, you know, it's a, yes, it's a gift and yes, it's beautiful, but it also comes with challenges and trials and tribulations and things where we have to pivot.

And think new and, but the one thing that I try to remind people is, you know, it's hard not to have a lot of regrets, but my God, if you have the power to tell people in your life, how much you love them and how much you appreciate them and, and how much you need them, that's everything because at the end of the day, that's all people really want to know is that they matter to somebody and, and, and a meaningful, significant life is my intention for myself.

I want to be able to leave this earth and be able to feel in my heart that I lived a meaningful and significant life, that I made a positive impact on other people's lives, but that more importantly, that I told the people that I love and that I care about. That they knew that, that they really know that, but don't take that for granted.

Zibby: So what people might not know about you, and I have to admit, I was debating if I should even admit this, but I didn't know anything about you when this book came out. It was just another book that looked really good to me, and all of that. I didn't know your background, your father being a legendary, you know, Like, I didn't know that there would be scenes, like, hanging on the couch with the Obamas in this book.

Right. You know what I mean? Like, and I was like, oh, you wouldn't know from looking at it. You know what I mean? Like, there's nothing to distinguish it. I've heard you speak a few times. Like, you wouldn't necessarily know That your life was so, at times, glamorous and full of really important people. The history of music has, like, coursed through your home as, like, the hotbed of creativity and, like, the, uh, like the, the salon of Beverly Hills, right, for a particular group of people who, like, produce some of our culture's greatest gifts, really.

So, talk a little bit about that and how Your own sort of circle, if you will, or being a more public person, or just if that changes anything, do you, did you feel any sort of pressure, not to say, you know, you're like, you know, acting or, you know, not to say you have to be public, but there, there comes with that an added layer of public persona, perhaps.

Anyway, discuss. 

Nicole: Yeah, I think yes, you're correct. And I, you know, that's why the book kind of turned into, you know, I was originally writing a book on, on grace and gratitude. I, I had produced a documentary on my father's life called the black Godfather. And we, it went up right before COVID, thank God. And then during COVID, it really just took off.

And, and, but it was, I made the movie, the same reason I wrote the book is because there is such, it's about so much, my father's life is about so much, it's so much American history, and because he was 92, there's a long history there, so America for him, when he was born in 1931, was obviously very different when I was born in 1968.

Completely different. And there was a lot of progress, and I, I'm a big believer in celebrating progress and talking about it, even when it was traumatic. But what I, what, and when my mom passed, I thought, well, my God, to your point, I'm going to be writing about, Well, what my mom has taught me and what my father has taught me, but really no one knows who really I am or no one really understands my whole full life.

So I've got to explain everything in this book. And so that's why it's more like a tapestry. There's the book is about the American dream. The book is about the record business. The book is about black culture and Beverly Hills. The book is about, it's so many layers. And then the book is, I wanted it to be a celebration of life.

I wanted people to remember my mother. I wanted people to, there was no way to me that I was going to have my mom's legacy be her death. 

That was not going to happen. I was like, Oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Jacqueline Avant did too many things for too many people for her legacy to be how she died. I want to focus on how she lived, the lessons that she taught me, the way she raised me.

She had very high standards. And now I look back and I thank God that she had high standards better than not having any And you know, she expected a lot but because she loved her country and because she honored her freedom And because she wanted to be an editor, a book editor, she wants, she was the editor of her high school yearbook, her college yearbook, all of it.

And she wanted to go into this world of publishing. It wasn't really open for her at those times. It was the fifties and sixties. It just, the doors were not open. So for her having me being born on her birthday, on her 28th birthday, she said, there are doors and opportunities that are open for you that we did not get.

And I cannot raise you to sit on the couch and do nothing because These were hard fought freedoms, but really sacrificed. And so she loved teaching me history, all history. So, you know, it was, we're going to read Anne Frank's diary. We're going to read that over and over again, and you're going to understand the suffering and resilience.

Truth. And then you're going to read about, you know, Harriet Tubman and Ida B. Wells, and you're going to love Frederick Douglass. And you're going to appreciate what has been given to you. And that is what I wanted to put into this book of yes, we had a very, very big glamorous life, but it was rooted and grounded in very deep intention to honor the people that came before us.

Who knew that they would never, ever, ever see the harvest from the seeds that they planted, but it was such an unselfish thing to do, right? I know I'm never going to be able to vote. I know I'm never going to be able to own a house. I know I'm never going to be able to do this, but I'm going to continue to fight and march and sow seeds for the next generation and say a prayer that it works.

And that is the greatest gift that my parents gave to me. 

Zibby: Yeah, it's like the book is like, uh, hey, look what happened.

Fast forward a little time capsule here. FYI, you know. Yeah, FYI. Yeah, exactly. So as you said, it's, it's almost like a tapestry of sorts because you weave in so many things. So you do have that. whole piece of your life as daughter, right? But then you also have you as career woman and all that with taking an ambassadorship.

I mean, that is also a very rare thing. I mean, how many women ambassadors are there? Like there must be not a lot, not a lot, not a lot. 

Nicole: No. And, and, and I was, you know, I was four, I'm in 53 now. I was, I'm 56 now. I was 40 at the time. So it was, The youngest ambassador as a female and the first black ambassador, female ambassador in the Bahamas.

And I thought, you know what, you know, Obama was a young president and that's what I loved about it. It was just like John F. Kennedy. They had young ambassadors because they were young themselves. 

Zibby: Yep. 

Nicole: You know, Obama and I were seven years apart. I mean, he's 47 at the time. So it was, you're going to have.

youthful ambassadors that are hopefully going to go out and bring a different perspective and, and it was the greatest honor of my life to serve my country and to meet different people. I would have never met anyone from DEA or the Coast Guard or ICE or CBP, all these great organizations that help keep us safe and And really, you know, push our agenda forward.

These men and women changed my life. You know, I would have never crossed paths with them. And I loved getting to know what they did, what made them get up and serve, what made them join the army, what made them join the Marines, what made them become a DEA officer. I mean, I would never get to have those conversations.

Zibby: And yet you realized that your ambassadorship was hurting your marriage and decided to come home, which I thought was also really amazing. And that you're open about that. And like, we can't all do everything and have it all work out all the time. 

Nicole: No. And I think that's the thing. Everyone says you could do everything you want.

I said, yeah, but not all of it's going to work out all the time because something hard to give. Your energy can only be so many places. And I really had to decide as much as I love Ted and he loved me. It was a very new marriage. We dated for a year and we were off to the races. I moved to a different country.

It's like we got married in September and October. I was away and he would come and visit every couple of weeks. And after two years and with two teenagers, you know, my stepchildren with Ted, it was Oh, something is breaking here actually really loving this job so much that I want to stay and I found myself not wanting to come home found myself thinking about my future and then well, I don't know, Ted will have to figure it out how he's going to get to D.

  1. If I did. And all of a sudden I realized, Oh, this is actually not going to be sustainable. And I have to choose what is the most important to me. And Ted and my family was the most, and my parents were getting older and I thought, you know what? I need to go home and it's okay. It's not a failure. It's a bummer.

And I was disappointed and I was a little depressed about it, but I'm not anymore. I look back at the choice and I'm glad that I chose my family. And I'm glad that I was honest with myself because I was getting physically sick and things were in my body where I'm like, Oh man, I have to have an operation because it's just too much stress and trying to figure everything out and make everyone happy and be there for everybody.

And something's going to give. And I was like, Oh my God, now it's my body. Physically kind of saying it's too much. 

Zibby: Yeah. Funny how the body does that when we refuse to listen to everything else, including common sense and reason. It's like, Oh, it's coming out somewhere. 

Nicole: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, you can only run on empty for so long and I just didn't want to run on empty.

Zibby: Your mother's life was so interesting and I know I, she wanted to be an editor, whatever, but wasn't she a phlebotomist or was that right? Yes. I'm like, I was like, really? I know. That's amazing. Amazing. And she's obviously brilliant, amazing. You know. 

Nicole: Beyond.. And I love that you said that 'cause you're the first person that's brought that up in six months.

And I love it because my mom was so proud to be a phlebotomist and she's like, I know how to draw blood study blood. I can tell you what's in the blood. It was fascinating, but it was her part of that. She found something that she loved. She was like, I was also, you know, she wanted to be an editor. Like you said, she wants, she did that.

She said, I also wanted to be a nurse and to be in the hospitals and help people. And she. And that's what I loved about her is that she tried everything. If a door was open, she's going to walk. If she was interested and the door was open, she was like, I'm just going to try. Why not? You know, and she still has all these newspaper articles that she saved for me where, you know, for a 1 and 69 cents an hour, you know, you could work at this hospital for 5 an hour.

And it's just so great of, you know, women needed. And, and it just, okay. It just was such a different time, yet she was so proud to be alive and to live and to try different things. And that's one of the greatest gifts she gave me. It's like, you know what? Walk into different arenas. You're going to find out what you like, and you're going to find out what you're good at, and then you're going to find out what you're not good at.

So that you could, you know, she's like, people are always chasing their passions, and she's like, you need to chase what you're really good at. Find out what you're good at and you'll be passionate about what you're great at. 

Zibby: That's so true. 

Nicole: Right? You know, and I think we're all, she said, instead of being so scattered, whatever you're naturally good at is, is the hint from the universe that that's what you should be.

Do it. You know, I have friends who were, I grew up with and they were so organized and so OCD and people try to make them bad and problem children. There are two OCD. Now my friend is one of the greatest event planners literally in the world because she has this OCD personality and loves serving people, loves making people happy and she can organize anything.

In five minutes her brain can just organize but it's a gift. But have we taken that away from her? You know what? I mean? It's she's fine She she found what she's good at and then she's gonna put those skills into a into something creative and good for her. 

Zibby: Yeah, I find often what people struggle with The most is what becomes their superpower later in life.

Nicole: Yes, absolutely. 

Zibby: So hopefully that will inspire people struggling, especially people's kids or whatever. So yes, you know, you know, another thing you did with your career is you decided on the day of the sentencing that you weren't going to go to the courthouse, but instead you were going to show up at your board meeting with a full face of makeup and just be like, I am not letting this take me down.

This is the life I want to live. And everyone was sort of shocked being like, what are you doing here? 

Nicole: Even, even Ted that morning was like, you know, they'll understand if you don't show up today. And I, I just said to Ted, you know what? I have a life and I love my life and I have a very blessed life. And yes, my mom's life was tragically taken, but I'm not going to, if I stopped showing up for myself, Then my life's going to be taken too.

So I have to make a decision here. So I'm going to put on my makeup. My heart was, I mean, the anxiety I had that day of not knowing what the sentencing was going to be. And it was all while I was driving. I knew it was going to happen. I knew my lawyer was going to be texting me and I walked in and as I walked in, like I say in the book, my friend Sherry was reading like, Oh my God, you're being sentenced right now.

And I said, and this is the craziness and the beauty of life. Okay. That two things that are so opposite are happening at the same time. He's being sentenced and I'm showing up for myself and I knew that my mom would want me to show up. I got dressed. Like I said, I did my hair, I put my makeup on and I just thought I am living my life and I'm not going to allow this person who's already taken my mother and already shattered our family to take anything else.

It was a very hard decision and it doesn't mean it was, it wasn't an easy decision and it wasn't easy walking in the office that day. But it was important and it, it honored my soul. It wasn't easy, but it honored my soul. And I, I look back and I, I'm so grateful that I can say, wow, I don't have that regret.

I'm so happy. I didn't, I'm so happy. I didn't stay. And my dad was able to watch me. Like I went to his room to say goodbye and I said, don't turn on the TV. I put on a movie for him and I said, and I'm going and I'll be home in a couple of hours. And then, you know, we poured a glass of wine, had a bottle of wine together that night and, but it's one of those things where it was, right.

You know, sometimes in life we have to make decisions and as hard as they are, as uncomfortable that they are, you never, I didn't want to betray myself. 

I just was sick and tired of betraying myself. 

Zibby: So you seem to Have it all sort of together with the book and your sayings, and you're so eloquent about grief and loss, and you could fool people into thinking you were okay, and that grief is something you dealt with, but that is obviously not the way grief feels.

Works. Right. So tell us about a time when, you know, like what is, what happens when you just lose it? Like, I heard about the time when you were banging your Oh yeah. The hat fist. But like what, where do you do are, do you, are you like, I'm a bathroom floor crier. That's where I like you do. Okay. 

Nicole: I go to the closet.

Zibby: Okay. Closet. 

Nicole: Yeah, the closet. I clean the closet. Every time I'm angry or frustrated, I go to the closet or the bathroom. 

Zibby: Mm-Hmm. . 

Nicole: And I'm a bathroom crier. I go into, I go into that bathroom, shut the door, and I'm on the floor in fetal position. And I wail and I also love to get into the bath at times because it grounds me and I talk it out and it could be sometimes I talk to my mom.

Sometimes I'm just talking to myself. Sometimes I'm talking to the universe and I just get it out, but it is. I know it seems like I, you know, the way, the way I show up, everyone's like, Oh, wow. Wow. She just got over that. I did not get over anything. My heart is, is in repair. My heart, I'm sure will be in repair till the day I leave this earth.

There are days where grief comes in waves and it hits you. It's like getting, you know, it's like a bad, it's like a breakup. We've all had these terrible breakups. And, You grieve that. There are days where a song will come on and I'll think of my mom and I'll either laugh and have a really great memory from summer camp, or I will have to pull the car over.

I can't drive because I'm crying so hard that I can't see. And you just don't know when it happens. But what I have learned is when grief does show up, let it show up. You know, if you have to excuse yourself from a dinner, just excuse yourself from a dinner for a second. Like I don't. Because I used to try to shove it down, and then it just is going to sit somewhere, and, and it's going to show up again.

So. Grief comes in stages. I don't think that there's these five steps or eight rules or this. And I think that is messed with everyone's head because then all of a sudden it's like, Oh, I'm supposed to be this, but I'm not feeling that. And what helped me, and I know it doesn't help everybody, but for me, grieving while doing things and being productive helped me a lot.

It didn't mean I wasn't grieving and it didn't mean I wasn't sad. And it didn't mean I didn't miss my mom, but I also knew that being productive was going to help me. Being creative was going to help me. A film had come to me right before my mom passed away and my friend Carrie sent me the sizzle reel and now it's turned into a Tyler Perry production.

And it's called 6888 and it's a true story. And it's about an all female, all black battalion in World War II helped us win the war. And Kerry Washington is starring in it. It's a beautiful film. It's a beautiful film. And I said, yes, I continued to just, I needed to be creative as I was grieving and that helped me, but in no way, you know, I, I, I always tell people, you know, there's a, there's a very fine line where I sometimes felt that I was drowning in quicksand.

And I knew if I didn't get out that I was really going to drown in life and that I was not going to. I would survive, but I wasn't going to live. And so again, the intention of looking at myself in the mirror and doing a lot of mirror work and saying, I really want to live and I want to live the life that I meant to live.

And I don't know how long I have, and I want to live the greatest life that I can. And I need help and I need encouragement and I need support. And I need inspiring people and inspiring projects to help me get, give me a reason to get up every day. 

Zibby: Wow. 

Nicole: You know, without my friends, I could have never finished this book.

I could have never, I wouldn't be sitting here talking to you. I mean, my friends really showed up and, and supported me in a way that I've never felt before. I didn't even know what it felt like to be that supported, to have like these, these boats beneath me that were going to make sure that I did not drown.

Zibby: It's amazing. It's amazing who shows up at the times who need them the most. 

Nicole: I need them the most. Yeah. And that's the big thing that I've learned. My big takeaway from this. Full experience is really showing up for people. Even if you don't know what to say, it's not about having the right thing to say.

It is just about showing up. And when I saw people, they didn't have to say anything to me, but when I saw them in my house. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Nicole: In the living room, talking to my father, waiting for me, waiting to give me a glass of wine and or a hug. It changed everything. 

Zibby: Yeah. It's really okay when Michelle Obama doesn't say a specific thing.

It's just when she hugs, it's just when she hugs me that I feel so much better.

Anyway, all right, so, so now here you are. Like moving in phase two, right? Your life, I'm sure, is now forever bifurcated, right? Before and after of this moment. If you had a dream, not a dream, but like a, you know, a hope for what you want for this next part of your life to look like. 

Nicole: I want my, I definitely want to be, I would need to streamline a lot.

I really do and I know that. And I really want to, my intention is now to focus on the things and the people that I love and give it the most attention versus saying yes to everything and everything I'm interested in. Oh, cause you only have one life. You should do it all. Yeah, no, I'm over that. I'm so over that.

I don't care. And I'm saying no. Thank you to a lot of things. I think the reason that all of us have a problem saying no is because it just, I said to my friend ago, if you just tag on, no, thank you. No, thank you. Thank you so much for the, for offering me that wonderful, you know, event or thing. But when you say thank you after 

no, you said it a lot easier with it, but it's like, yeah, you know what?

Thank you so much. I really don't have the time. I wish you the best of luck with your event. Who's gonna say anything? That's it. 

Zibby: I'll be, I'll, I'll wait for that email to come just like that, if I ever ask you to do anything. It's ready. You can save it as part of your signature in your, in your email. You can just have it ready.

Nicole: But I just realized that, you know, the more complaining I do and the more venting I do is, is for me to be aware that I'm obviously doing too much or things need to change and I need to pivot. And it always comes back to ourselves. I love to blame other people. If they would only just do this, if they would only just, well, no, just I'm responsible for me.

I'm responsible for the energy that I bring to the world. I want to be attentive and I want to be focused and I want to be creative, but I just can't say yes to everything. I just can't. And I actually just have no interest in it anymore and it's okay. And it leaves room for other people. 

Zibby: It's amazing what sometimes it takes for us to actually live our best lives, right?

Yeah. Yeah. If only it wasn't. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Zibby: Extreme. 

Nicole: Right. But we have a lot of opportunities and we're really fortunate and to live in this country and have the opportunities that we all have as women in this country, even though it's not exactly, it may not be where we all want to be or there's still so much that needs to be done.

Whatever. True. True. But. We're so fortunate. And there's just things that I've seen that I've missed out on or friends of mine that are, you know, they now have emptied, they're becoming empty nesters. And they're like, wow, that's never coming back. My child is actually going to college and I don't get that time back.

That's never happening again. Yeah. It's over. Which is why there's grief with that. That's over. Yep. And his girlfriend was like, and I worked so hard and I don't, I'm never going to get them back as teenagers. Like now they're going to go create their own lives and I cannot unscramble that egg and I cannot change it.

And she said, and I really just chose work and at least she's owning it. She's like, and I own it, but she knows that she's not getting it back. So she's going to do whatever she can now to, you know, make up for it. But I think it's important for us just to have awareness. All of us have to be aware of.

Zibby: Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. Well, I think you'll be happy. I'm hopefully thinking I'm going to be happy. So, this is a good, uh, good book to keep around as a reminder of all the, all the ways we can be happy and sort of self actualized and all of that. So.

Nicole: Yeah. 

Zibby: So your mom, your mom is giving us lots of gifts. So Jackie Yvonne's gifts live on, you know. 

Nicole: She lives on and she's very happy.

And like I said, she wanted to be an editor and want love literature. So the fact that there's a book and it was because she helped create this, that there's, you know, there it is. There it is. There it is. Thank you so much. To you. 

Zibby: Oh, thanks. 

Nicole: Success with your book. Congratulations to you. 

Zibby: Thank you so much.

Nicole: Thank you. 

Zibby: Bye, Nicole. 


Purchase your copy on Bookshop!

Share, rate, & review the podcast, and follow Zibby on Instagram @zibbyowens