Zibby chats with podcaster and writer Molly Stillman about her laugh-out-loud and heartfelt memoir IF I DON’T LAUGH I’LL CRY: How Death, Debt, and Comedy Led to a Life of Faith, Farming, and Forgetting What I Came into This Room For. Molly describes her childhood with a mom who was a Vietnam War veteran—and what it was like to lose her at seventeen to an autoimmune disorder caused by exposure to Agent Orange. She also shares how she squandered an unexpected quarter-of-a-million-dollar inheritance in less than two years… which filled her with shame and embarrassment. Finally, she describes her writing journey, the challenges of revisiting painful memories, and how she balances humor and seriousness.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Molly. Thank you so much for coming on Mom's No Time to Read Books to discuss, If I Don't Laugh I'll Cry, how death, debt, and comedy led to a life of faith farming and forgetting what I came into this room for.

Molly: I'm so honored to be here. Thank you so much for having me. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh, it's my pleasure. I really could not put your book down. It's so good, and you know, the way that you write, as if you and I are like sitting on the couch chit chatting, and the, how you write about the writing from the beginning to the conclusion to the like, like you feel like you're, in a special book situation.

Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah. 

Molly: Yeah. 

Zibby: So tell me about that. Tell the listeners about your whole story and your decision even to make it so, you know, breaking down of the third wall type of thing. 

Molly: Yeah. Well, it's so funny because I was, I mean, I've always been a writer and I talk about this in the book, you know, my mom was a writer.

And so, I mean, that was just, I think, in my blood from the time I was little and I was constantly writing and I was the kid that always had a million different journals and, you know, making up stories. And when I was in high school, I had an English teacher, Mrs. Broughton, who really was the first one who kind of identified in me.

She was like, you are a gifted writer. And she was like, don't ever let anybody ever squelch that. And I had never been told that before. And so it was like, oh, okay, maybe I'm actually good at this. But then I went to college and I was a creative writing major, and I had a professor who once yelled at me for, like, my very, uh, colloquial style of writing, and was like, you know, you know, you would never get published because this isn't formal enough, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and I was like, but, I mean, if I write any other way, then I'm not being true to myself.

But then, of course, like it always happens, I had another professor who was like, don't listen to him. You know, like, he doesn't know what he's talking about. But she was, you know, she really actually helped me, I think, lean into my own unique style of writing. And so when I was in college, I started, uh, you know, she said to me, she was like, the only way you get better as a writer is just to write.

And so this was in the early 2000s and so that manifested itself in the form of a live journal. And, you know, it was just kind of this place where I started just kind of putting my thoughts. And what I really thought I wanted to do with my life was be a comedy writer. I wanted to be, a writer on SNL or I had applied for jobs like writing for The Tonight Show and Conan and stuff like that.

And so I thought that that was kind of what I wanted to do. And so this, this blog became this house for all of my writing. And so I say all of that to say that, like, it really took years and years and years, like decades. I mean, this was, you know, over 20 years ago at this point that I was, you know, just constantly writing every single day.

I'm really glad that there's an archive button so that nobody reads all of that really bad stuff I wrote in the early days. But just the ability to realize, okay, what connects with people? How do people consume a story? And so probably after the first like five or maybe seven years that I was blogging online, and I realized that, oh, there are people like all over the world reading this.

One of the best compliments I ever received was when I met a reader in person. And she said, Oh my gosh, like meeting you, I, I feel like you just talk the way that I read what you write. And I was like, Yes, that's exactly what I'm going for. And so I just kind of leaned into that. And when I first realized that I wanted to write this book and tell this story, I knew that I, because memoir is my favorite genre.

And I love beautiful memoirists. I mean, I've, I've read, you know, David Sedaris, and I've read Jeanette Walls, and I've read a lot of these kind of like well known memoirists. And I was like, that's not my style. Like, I'm not, I'm not ever going to sound like them. And so I just was like, no, I have to be true to myself.

And I've got to be who I am on the page. And I want, if I were to ever run into a reader of this book, I would want them to say, yeah, you're exactly how I pictured you based on how I, when I read your book. And so I just leaned into that and funny enough when I started submitting proposals, uh, most publishers were like, we don't want to publish this.

Nobody's going to want to read it. But I'm really thankful that HarperCollins said, no, somebody wants to read this. So they said yes. And I had an editor who also saw my vision and really also helped me make the book. Stronger because of that and help me lean into more of what was my voice and so it's been it's just a really huge compliment that you say that because that's something that I did really intentionally and I like to invite the reader in and I want them to feel like they know me from the moment that they open up the book so that I kind of earn the right along the way to tell the story the way that I do.

Zibby: I love that so much. I feel like there's always, there are always these people who try to get you, I think, well intentioned people who are giving advice based on what has worked for them or what they know. And it's like not the right advice for you. Somebody once, somebody once, when I was trying to write a book the very first time, which ended up not selling, but fine.

I'm, I mean, clearly I'm not over it. I'm still talking about it like 20 years later, but it's fine. This editor I was working with was like, you can't put an exclamation point. In a book. And I was like, what are you talking about? I have exclamation points, like, all over the book. All over. And she was like, no, no, no.

But you can't do that. You have to take them all out. And I thought about that. I was like, how? And to this day, like, this person ended up being a novelist. never, you know, very literary novelist who would never have an exclamation mark. And I, of course, am not that way. Do you know what I mean? Like, but, but we have totally different audiences.

So for as many critics as there, you know, anyway, I'm glad you listened to yourself. 

Molly: Yes. And I, I will say like my, my editor is amazing because there were a lot of times where, because again, having been a former comedian and comedy writer, there were definitely a lot of like exclamation points or like little asides or jokes I would make in that first manuscript where my editor was like, I think you think this is funnier than I was like, I was like, No, I think this is hilarious.

And so I actually that was a really good exercise in like dying to self, where there were a lot of moments where I was like, I had to pick and choose. Okay. what actually makes this book funnier or makes this, the way I tell this story better, or what do I, like, want to die on the hill of? Like, are there any?

And so there were some things that I just had to let go and be like, okay, you're right, I'll cut that. Even though I think it's really funny, I'll cut it. But then there were other things where I was, I mean, she wanted me to cut it, and I said, I'm putting my foot down, like, I'm leaving this in here. And there are a couple of things that I've had people message me and be like, I cackled at this and I texted her and I was like, I told you, people think this is funny.

Zibby: Oh my gosh. I mean, meanwhile, we're like starting this conversation about the book as if it's, All hilarious, and it is. The way that you write about even the most tragic of times is so funny, and that is great. But there are many poignant moments that you write about in all seriousness, including telling your mom's story.

And I have to say, having read The Women, like everybody in America, I guess, and feeling like, you know, I got to know Kristin Hannah's fictional characters and knowing that one of them is sort of based on your mom and her own memoir Home Before Morning, which is so great you have right up up there, my gosh.

And I feel like I should go back and read it. Your mom was one of the nurses in Vietnam and her homecoming in particular and the after effects and the health effects that went undiscussed and Really permeated your family and, and ruined her life. I mean, all the things you write, these are heavy topics that you handle alternately with humor and gravitas and all of that.

So tell me about that in particular. And even then going into your own debt situation. I mean, tell me about the piece about your mom and, and. Finding your way to tell her story in your story. 

Molly: Yeah, well, you know, I, it was a large task going into this book because she was a larger than life figure. And for those that, that don't know, I'll just kind of give the 36, 000 foot view.

So my mom was named Linda Vandivander, and she was an army nurse from 1969 to 1970, um, in the Vietnam War. And her memoir, Home Before Morning, was published in 1983, and it was the very first non fiction account of the Vietnam War from the perspective of a woman, and went on to inspire the show China Beach, and yes, Kristen Hanna used it in the research of her novel, The Women.

And, you know, so when I, I was born in 1985, and so this was, I was born, like, during the heat of when my mom was doing publicity for her book still, you know, and it was the heat of the controversy around it. It was incredibly intense. controversial. There were entire groups and organizations that had been formed to discredit her, to say that what she'd written was a lie, and it was really, really painful for her.

But, you know, all the while, my mom is getting sober. She got sober the same year that her book came out. She had battled alcoholism for years after coming back from Vietnam, much like a lot of vets. But she got sober in 1983, her book comes out in 1983, she meets my dad in 1984, they get married six weeks later, and then I'm born in 1985.

And they're thrust into a legal battle fighting for my mom to have sole rights to her book, uh, all of the controversy around it, I mean, it was a lot. So, you know, I'm Kind of by osmosis, like, I'm just thrown into this lifestyle of being the daughter of an incredibly powershe's just a powerful woman who did not take any ish from anyone, but did it all with laughter and with a sense of humor.

And she had this incredibly loud, boisterous laugh that I have inherited. That you could hear probably a mile away. 

Zibby: Oh my god, I love, I love the scene, not to interrupt. I love the scene when you were working for, was it a governor? Or not the governor's office? And they told you you were laughing too loudly and disrupting people.

And then the governor was like, no, that's not true. Like, keep it up. Oh my gosh. 

Molly: Good old, good old Tim Kaine. Future vice presidential candidate. Yeah, I know. What a wild. It's my husband and one of my best friends. They call me, they're like, you're like my Forrest Gump friend. Like you have these like really weird stories where you interact with these like iconic people in history.

I was like, I actually, I take that as a compliment. But yeah, yeah, she just, you know, I inherited that, that big, boisterous laugh from her. And so when I set out to write this story, I was like, how do I tell her story in a way that. makes sense, brings people that don't know her into it and then also weave it into my life and how, you know, the, the war and the aftereffects of the war affected me even though I was born 15 years after she came home.

And so that was a really difficult task. I will say that the chapters where I write about her service and those and along with the chapter about her death and funeral. are, were by far the hardest chapters I had to write. In fact, I had to like literally go away to a place by myself for a couple of days to be able to do it.

And, and what I did was I actually, my mom was a voracious hoarder of things and journals and notepads and I have all of them. And so I spent the first 24 hours when I was gone and away just reading her journals. And so I have journals and notebooks from when she was in Vietnam and when she came home and when she met my dad and, and so it was really interesting kind of getting inside of her head to see like what was going through her head.

And so I tried to kind of, I don't want to sound like weird, but like channel that as I was writing it is like, how do I then convey what I gathered from, from her journal writing? into what I'm putting on the page. And because, like I said, she had a sense of humor, and I tell that story in the book of the Grotto of Lords where, uh, she fakes a healing.

And, uh, you know, she does like, stand up, stand up. And people think that she's being miraculously healed. I tell, I told that story in, like, specifically so that people could understand that, like, yes, what we were facing as a family with, you know, my mom's family being estranged, with her illness and the VA, you know, not acknowledging her illness and her PTSD and our financial issues, like, it was, it was a lot.

But my parents, like, that was a microcosm of how they handled those things. And it's not that they were dismissive of the grief. It's not that they were not dealing with it. It was If they don't laugh, they will cry and so like if they, if they did not choose joy in the midst of a lot of pain, like I actually think my mom would have died a whole lot sooner because I think that because she chose joy in the midst of what was just really painful and that my dad was really protective of her peace, of surrounding her with people that she loved.

brought her life and did not bring her down. And that, you know, they chose those opportunities, like, to make fun of their Catholic upbringings and fake a healing. You know what I mean? Like, that was, that was who they were. And so, and that's, and that's in a lot of ways how I am. And so, you know, as I was telling her story, it was like, I wanted to enmesh these things together of, let me tell the lighthearted side of them while also lacing the really difficult parts of it all throughout.

Zibby: Amazing. Oh my gosh. In the story, and I'm so sorry about your mom's loss by the way. I should have just said that in the chapter. Whatever you channeled and however you did it with the journals, like the effect of it was me sitting on my couch with like my hand over my heart and at times my hand over my face being like, oh my gosh, like the moment at the NSYNC concert where she has like a PTSD episode and doesn't even remember it.

And you're in charge. I mean, that's the thing too. It's, it's not just that she was going through all this. It's that you were so young and having to hold all of this really painful, serious stuff and that is hard. I mean. 

Molly: Yeah. 

Zibby: That is, any response from any child in that situation, you'd be like, oh, okay, I understand why.

Molly: Yeah, and I've had to as an adult because I think in a lot of ways and I talk about this a little bit in the book, not as much as I maybe wanted to, but I just felt protective of of it in some ways is that like I, I carried a lot of regret for years and, and you know, how I handled things or like if I was just being a teenage brat, you know, my daughter is almost 11 and so we're like deep in the tween.

Zibby: Oh my gosh, I am there. I have. 

Oh my gosh, we should talk offline. I'm like, this is the hardest summer. 

Molly: I know. And so like, and you know, she is amazing. She's a bright, smart, hilarious, funny, generous kid. And then there are the moments that the tween sass comes out. And I looked at my husband and I was like, I think I'm just getting paid back because I look back and I'm like, man, I was the exact same way.

And you know, I loved my mom deeply, but then there were times where, yeah, she was my mom and I was like annoyed with her and embarrassed by her just like every other teenager. And I've, especially around her illness or maybe just being frustrated with her or angry with her or like the night that she died, you know, I, I tell that story of how we were not on good terms when she died.

We had gotten in a huge fight. And so that is something that I have really wrestled with and had to deal with in therapy. And, and I think now as an adult, you know, I'm uh, an almost, you know, I'm nearing 40 at this point. And I, I've gotten to the point now where I think. I can't imagine, like, if I take myself out of myself, and I look at just, if I was just any other teenager, like, it was a deck of cards that I did not know how to play, and my parents didn't know how to play it, like, all of us were doing the best we could with what we had, and it was, A lot.

And I didn't, you know, I didn't have any sort of, I didn't go to therapy. I wasn't in counseling. Like I, I wasn't, uh, I didn't have a foundation of faith. I didn't have anything. And so in a lot of ways, like I just kind of had what I had right in front of me and I was doing the best that I could. And yeah, a lot of it I probably could have done better and different.

I was it. Well, or I was 13 or I was 15 and it's like, I don't know what I would have expected me to do. So that is something that I legitimately had to kind of work through and get to the point where I was giving my younger self grace that I didn't give to myself at the time. 

Zibby: Yeah, you could see that in the storytelling.

I mean, there is a compassion to it. 

Molly: Yeah. 

Zibby: It's so necessary. In addition to the loss and everything, your dad then gets remarried and moves to Florida. You're in college and you get this massive inheritance check out of the blue, which you thought maybe you'd get something, but never anticipated it being so much.

Had no sort of mentorship except for some random guy at the bank who you're like, he could have at least given me some pointers. Yeah. Literally anything. Literally anything. Literally anything would have helped. Yeah. Which ironically ends up leading you into all sorts of debt, which then you carry the shame of for so long.

So talk a little bit about that piece of the puzzle and even how it took your marriage and the tithing system and all of that to sort of find your way back. I found that fascinating. 

Molly: Yeah, so yes, my on my 21st birthday, I get this surprise inheritance from again, my mom's family was estranged. And so I get this surprise inheritance for a quarter of a million dollars on my 21st birthday, and you know, it's right at the beginning of my senior year of college.

And. this was, you know, not anything that I had any idea what I was doing. And so what happens when you give a, you know, emotionally unstable 21 year old a quarter of a million dollars? Uh, well, a lot. And so within less than two years, I had not only spent every last dime, I was over 36, 000 in consumer credit card debt.

And I had realized that for me, in a lot of ways, and this isn't as like, you know, fun and sexy of a story as like, you know, I got into drugs, and I was, you know, like, working at a strip club, and I was drinking all the time, like, I, I didn't do that, but for me, the way, one of the ways I coped with grief was by spending money.

And it is more common than people realize, ever since I started sharing my story, the amount of people who have come out and said, yes, like there is real science to this of when people just spend money because they think it's like a quick fix. It's a quick dopamine hit of something new and fun and exciting.

And all of a sudden, you know, most of America is riddled with credit card debt. So it's, it's actually way more common than we talk about, but it's just not as like, you know. bright flashing lights like it is, uh, with, you know, drugs or alcohol abuse. And so this was something that I had been really struggling with and I, you know, just really spiraled into feeling deep shame and embarrassment and regret.

And, and a lot of it stemmed with like, my mom would be so disappointed in me. Like this, this should have been her money. She should have been here to get this money. But I got it, and I screwed up, and like, yes, I did a couple of good things with it, but in general, like, I just was wildly irresponsible, and I'm embarrassed, and I'm ashamed, and so I hid.

And so I, I, you know, just kind of pushed everybody out. I wouldn't let anybody know what was going on. And when you do that, when you not only, you know, isolate yourselves and, and you're not truthful with what's actually going on in your life, but you kind of stiff arm people, I mean that the mental health effects of that are just terrible.

And so yeah, it was, it was not like an overnight fix. This was like, I, I re I hit the financial rock bottom in the summer of 2008 and it wasn't until the fall of 2010 that I actually. opened up with somebody who is now my husband to, to let him know, like, here's, here's what's going on in my life. And here's the disaster that I have gotten myself into.

And the first time that I had really opened up myself, uh, to him, you know, he wasn't, Shaming or condemning in the study was compassionate and he was like, we're gonna help, you know, I'm gonna help you figure out how to kind of figure out the rest of the way. And then also at that time, like, because I'd hit this kind of emotional rock bottom, this spiritual rock bottom, you know, I was at a place where I had been considering taking my own life.

I was, I was living alone. I was isolated. I was depressed. And I kind of had reached my limit. last straw. And for me, it was, all right, I've given everything else a try. I might as well step in the foot of a church. And, uh, I realize that's not everybody's, uh, journey, but that was mine. And I stepped foot in the foot of a church that day.

And I, for the first time, heard a the gospel and I, I got to hear that there was hope and that there was, you know, no condemnation for me and that there, I could, you know, be released of my shame and my guilt. And I'm telling you, like, it was a real, very, a very real experience of feeling a, a weight lifted off of my shoulder.

And it's not like it was like a, You know, overnight, everything changed, but it, it began this process of actually getting to the root of what was going on in my life and healing, uh, a deep part of me that had been broken. And so it was, you know, over the course of the next year and a half that I was just kind of surrendering and trying, stop trying to like, in our American culture, it's all like, You've got to do it yourself.

Like, pick yourself up by your own bootstraps. You can do this. You know, you are enough. Like, girl boss. And that was, that was a really like, for me, that was really a toxic message. And instead it was like, actually stop trying to control everything and instead release it to God. And, and he really did a deep spiritual work in me.

And, um, and then over the next year and a half, I got engaged. I got married and wrote my last check to pay off the debt. And, and so we've been debt free for Over 12 years now and, you know, it's not like it's been easy or, you know, that life's been this like cakewalk since then, but I don't carry that shame, that guilt, that it can just feel like you're drowning ever since then and so that's, that's obviously a huge part of my life and my story and my family.

Zibby: Oh my gosh. Well, you told it beautifully and..

 

Molly: Thank you. 

Zibby: It's hard not to root for you. What, what is the PS to the book? Like now? I'm so invested. What has happened since the end of the book to now? 

Molly: Wow. Well, so, you know, my family and I, we live, uh, we, I touch on this a little bit at the book, but uh, yeah, we live on a farm literally as you and I are.

Recording this, my goats are currently walking up to my window and staring at me like, what are you doing? Um, uh, so no, I am not a comedy writer in New York City like I thought I was going to be or be on Saturday Night Live, but instead we live on a farm. We've planted a church here in our community with an incredible group of people and I get It's amazing.

to wake up every day just feeling incredibly lucky for the slow paced life that I live. And uh, we've got two beautiful kids and we just, we just feel really lucky for the life that we live. And, and I don't take a single day for granted. I get to see my dad all the time. My dad lives 10 minutes away and he's married to an incredible woman who my mom would have just loved.

Yeah. The woman I talk about in the book that my dad was with, she's no longer, uh, in the picture. And. We're not sad about that. And, um, my, my dad got remarried to a woman who was also a nurse, uh, not in Vietnam, but she was a nurse, born and raised, uh, in Cleveland, actually really close to where my dad's from, kind of small world.

She is also a widow. And so there's, she's in, uh, AA along with my dad. And so it's just, you know, It's just like she's got this loud boisterous laugh, just like my mom. And so in a lot of ways, we kind of feel like God brought them together in their later years in life. My dad just turned 80 and it's just been a really beautiful kind of redemption story.

And like I said, you know, our family is still going through a lot. Um, there's, there's a lot kind of, of painful stuff that have happened in the last couple years, but you know, we're, we're still doing it with, uh, kind of living life with a smile through it all. And, uh, I'm just feel really grateful. 

Zibby: Oh, Molly, thank you so much for letting all of us into your life through your book, through this conversation, and just all the people you're helping by being so honest and open and you know, SNL, whatever, this is so powerful what you're doing, so thank you for, thank you for finding your way to tell your story and making us laugh whatever way it ended up coming out.

So thank you. 

Molly: Thank you so much, Zibby. I'm so, so honored to be here. And thank you for reading this book and encouraging others to read it, too. 

Zibby: Please don't. If I don't laugh, I'll cry. Molly Stillman, go get the book. All right. Thank you.