Zibby Books author alert! Zibby speaks to debut author Mary Jones about THE GOODBYE PROCESS, an arresting, original, and beautifully rendered short story collection that examines loss and the painful ways we say goodbye—not just after the death of a loved one, but also after divorces, friendship breakups, and when aging, as we lose our younger selves. Mary shares her path to writing—which started after her father's death when she was just 15—and then touches on her love for the short story and her experiences teaching creative writing.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Mary. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss The Goodbye Process stories. So exciting. 

Mary: Uh huh. Thank you for having me, Zibby.

I'm so excited to be here. I listen all the time, so it's just such an honor to be a guest. 

Zibby: Oh, well, it's an honor to have you as a guest, especially from publishing this book and from our very first time reading it years ago. When was that? Like two years ago or something? 

Mary: Yeah. I think 2022. 

Zibby: Yeah. 2022. Well, it's so exciting to have witnessed the evolution of this project, and hopefully you feel the same way, although you aren't just a witness, but yeah.

Mary: Now it's been such an exciting process. 

Zibby: So, okay, for people who don't know anything about The Goodbye Process, a collection of short stories tell them what they should know. 

Mary: Okay. Um, the Goodbye Process is a short story collection where all of the stories are centered on a central theme of letting go and moving on.

I'm from upstate New York and many of the stories take place there or have links to that location. Um, so there's sort of a strong sense of place infused throughout. And in some cases there are recurring characters that pop up. I think, um, a lot of times when people think about loss, What comes to mind is the death of a loved one, but there are so many other losses that we go through in life and so many other things that we have to let go of and say goodbye to.

And I think for a lot of people, maybe their major loss event in their life doesn't even involve a death. There are things like, you know, divorce or breakups or loss of friendships or emptiness or, you know, loss of youth. So, The youth, loss of health, all these things, um, are constantly coming up. And, uh, the stories in this collection explore all those different kinds of loss and, uh, how we survive them.

Zibby: Amazing. Well, that was beautifully said. Love it. It's true. Sometimes I get like very sad even when like, my favorite lip gloss is discontinued or I mean, I know this is like the most minor, right? Obviously grief. 

Mary: Yes, yes. 

Zibby: There's a spectrum, right? It's the spectrum. But, um, you know, you get those emotions can be triggered by lots of sized things in your life, right?

Mary: Yeah, I know. We're always bumping up against different kinds of loss. You know, there's always like something that we're letting go of and, um, yeah. 

Zibby: At this, at this time of year, this will come out in the summer, but this is as, as school is wrapping up and saying goodbye to one kid's lower school and all of that, you know, it's like, I know it was devastating at the time, you know.

Mary: It is as a parent.

I think you're, you're always, you know, there's always new things coming, but you're always letting go of like who the child was at a certain stage. You know, it's, and it, there is a little bit of a sense of loss, I think, with that. 

Zibby: So give listeners a sense of what some of the stories are about. What's, what types of losses you write about and, and also where this came from.

So why these stories, how did, did you know they were a collection as you were writing them and how did you decide to aggregate them into this work? Okay, that was a lot of questions, so maybe we'll try that again. 

Mary: Um, I, I didn't set out to write a book about loss. I think I had written, um, probably about half of the stories when I realized that they all shared this theme, and then I knew that it was something that I wanted to explore more.

Um, and so I sort of wrote in that direction for the rest of the stories. The stories vary in, you know, length from, you know, there's some that are very short. I like flash fiction. There's some that are maybe only two pages and then there's some that are, you know, 30 pages. And then also in style, some are very much realist and some are, you know, a little bit weirder and a little surreal.

In one story, a woman camps out on the porch of an ex lover who's barricaded himself inside the house and literally stays there for the rest of her life. And, uh, in another story, two preteen girls, one of their fathers has recently abandoned the family and they end up in very grave danger when they are caught shoplifting.

And in another story, a man hires a woman. a professional mourner to help ensure that his wife's funeral is going to be a success. So over and over again in the collection, characters just kind of keep facing the ends of things. And, you know, it's an examination of sort of resilience and how we process all those different losses that keep coming up.

Zibby: And so where did this place of loss come from? from you? Like, where did it come from for you personally? 

Mary: You know, I think that by the time you're, you know, you know, a little bit older, you kind of, I think everybody has experienced a good amount of loss of relationships and stuff. I think for me personally, I think, you know, my sort of journey with loss began when I was young.

I lost my father, um, unexpectedly when I was 15. And I think that sort of colored the way that I see the world and got me thinking about loss as a writer. And as a teacher of writing, I, you know, tell students to try to find their material. Like, what is the story only you can tell? And for me, I think when I sit down to write, these are kind of just the stories that come out of my unconscious.

These are sort of this, I think this is just my material. Um, I think I have had a good amount of loss in my life with health problems and, you know, other, other losses of other important relationships. And, um, I think, you know, this is just sort of my material. 

Zibby: That's a great way to say that. You know, I, I feel like sometimes I don't even want it to be my material anymore.

I'm like, can't I just, I know, I know, I know it's true. Um, I'm so sorry about your dad. Um, did he have, what happened? Can you ask? 

Mary: He had, um, actually, you know, it was sort of similar to You know, um, uh, the COVID situation, he, you know, had pneumonia and he had some complications that resulted in him being on a ventilator and, um, and then he passed away.

Zibby: Oh, I'm so sorry. 

Mary: Thanks. 

Zibby: And when did you, is that when you started writing? Like at the time? Is that how you coped with that? Or did that precede it?

Mary: I think, I think I always, from when I was, you know, like a really young little girl, I was writing little stories about my dog and, you know, I remember there was some publication at our school every year we'd put out.

make like a little, I don't know, sort of little book. And I thought it was so exciting. I loved that more than anything. And I think I just kind of had a writer's senZibbylity. I was very, from a very young age, concerned about big questions of life and death and, you know, sort of thinking about things that I think most little kids are not.

I don't, I don't know why I was like that. I remember like, you know, seeing Leaves fall from the tree and just feeling sort of sad that they were doing and bringing them inside and like making them safe and warm. Like I just had, that was only when I was probably like six or seven. So I think I was always sort of thinking like a writer.

I just, you know, was thinking about things in a different way. And I continued to write. Throughout high school, you know, I was always writing a little story or I had a notebook with like poems that I would write. And then when I went to college, I didn't major in English. I sort of didn't think it was a realistic thing to pursue at the time.

I majored in psychology and I was set on that path. You did, too. That's my favorite show, yeah. I'm interested in human nature, so I think it made sense, you know, and it ultimately helped me. But I, just by like a happy accident, ended up in a fiction writing workshop. I went to Syracuse University, and Syracuse has a very rich literary history.

I think some of the best short story writers of all time have taught there. And uh, so it was kind of in the air a little bit, and I ended up in this fantastic, uh, fiction writing workshop. And that was where I fell in love with the short story form. And I discovered some of my favorite writers that I still read and teach and study to this day.

And then, you know, after college, I lived in Boston for a while and worked in publishing, but it wasn't until I moved to LA and decided to get my master's degree in fiction writing that I really started to take it seriously. And from that point, I've been, you know, reading and writing and teaching and fiction writing has You know, it's kind of become my life, which I know you can relate to, you know, it kind of just gets bigger and bigger.

Zibby: And tell me more about your teaching. What was the first class you ever taught? 

Mary: You know, I did this cool program. I went to Bennington College, um, for my master's degree to work with my writing hero, Amy Hempel. I don't know if you've ever read her. I love her work so much, and I was so lucky that I got to work with her, and I just learned so much, and the Bennington program was amazing.

There were so many great teachers there, but one thing they didn't offer that a lot of master's programs offer is teaching experience because it was low residency. I went twice a year and stayed, you know, at Bennington, and then the rest of the time it was just one on one mentorship with students different writers. So after Bennington, I did this program through Antioch University LA, which they had like a program in teaching creative writing and they paired me with two writers, um, in LA. Um, so I got paired with Amy Bender and Jim Caruso, um, who I know you've heard about from Mary Otis. Um, and, and so they sort of were both my teaching mentors.

So I guess the first classes that I taught were, I was sort of a student teacher in both of those classes. So it was, you know, this, this really cool class Amy Bender was running at USC. It was called the Writer in the Community where she was teaching those students how to become writing teachers that, you know, the USC undergrads.

Zibby: Hmm. 

Mary: Uh, and then Jim's class. Um, Jim Caruso's class was a fiction writing workshop. So those were the first two I taught. And then after that I went on to teach at, um, Santa Monica College for a while. And I teach at UCLA Extension. 

Zibby: Wow. I have to say, I took a writing class at UCLA Extension right when I graduated from college.

Oh, you did? Yeah. And now whenever we drive by when we're in L. A., it's like, My husband Kyle jokes and is like, look, it's your alma mater. That's funny. Like it is not my, and I also, I think I dropped out of the class after like writing one essay about buying my first bra or something ridiculous. You know, it was like a personal essay writing class, but.

Mary: Yeah. Those classes are fun because, you know, it usually is professionals in those classes, working professionals who are sort of, they can be very advanced, the students that come through those classes. So it's exciting to work with them. 

Zibby: I wish I could go back to, you know, what was that, 1998 and my writing teacher was at that point.

Mary: Oh, yeah, yeah. Lots of great teachers, you know, go through that program. So 

Zibby: do you keep up with any of your students? 

Mary: Um, you know, once in a while I'll get a little update from a student. I don't, I don't really, no, not beyond that, you know, yeah.

Zibby: And I also, by the way, went to Bennington for a summer program in fiction writing.

Mary: Oh, I didn't know that. That's awesome. 

Zibby: A long time ago. I know. 

Mary: It's such a beautiful campus. 

Zibby: It is love it there. 

I was actually just looking for my kids and they still have the program. I was like, wait a minute, this is what I did and you can actually just still go. 

Mary: Yeah. Yeah. It's a cool. Yeah. It's a great environment.

I love it there. 

Zibby: Really beautiful. So tell me about the process, haha, of the goodbye process. When you write a short story. Compare that, have you written full length fiction, like have you written novels, and are they all in drawers, and is that, that like a thing, and then what is the process of attacking a project like that versus a short story, or do you, do you even know it's a short story at the beginning?

Mary: You know, I kind of I kind of mainly see myself as a short story writer, so I haven't written novels. I do have a novel started, but, you know, it's a little bit slow going. But I think that probably the difference in the process between the two is, for me at least, I don't know if this is the case for everybody, but I think something like an outline or knowing where you're comes in a lot more handy with a longer project with a novel.

For short stories, I like to just kind of start. I usually have some idea of what the story is or some moment that I'm writing about and I like that mystery. I like not knowing where the story is going. Maybe I'll have some little idea, but it usually veers in another direction and I like when that happens.

I let it happen and I like the saying, you know, no. I'm not surprised for the writer, no surprise for the reader. And so I love when I'm surprised by what happens in a story. So I think that's how they're different. And yeah, no, I don't have novels in the drawer. I mostly have concentrated, you know, to this point on writing short stories.

Zibby: How do you know, I mean, this is going to sound stupid, but like, how do you know when a short story is over if it can be two pages or 30 pages, like, is it obvious to you? 

Mary: Well, it usually, you know, I. So what I tell my students is, you know, end the story when you know what's going to happen next. So like, kind of, you know, if you have, if something big happened in the story, and it has changed the characters in some way, and you kind of know where they're going from there, I don't think you need to see another beat of the story.

If you kind of can tell where the story is That's most likely going to go and how the characters are changed. I think the story's done. For me personally, when I'm writing, I usually get the chills. Like I usually will get like a physical sensation when I hit the last line. And if I don't get it, I don't feel like the story's done.

You know, I feel like, oh, I, you know, that story's not quite working. So I usually can tell I get a, you know, a, a, a chill. That's my answer. 

Zibby: I love that. That's so cool. I've actually never heard anyone say that before. 

Mary: Really? Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I, it's strange, but I, I usually do. 

Zibby: Love it. When you're reading for fun now, do you read short, like short stories?

Are those your go to genre to read or no? 

Mary: Yes. I read almost exclusively short stories. I just, I love the short story form. I love the brevity. Um, I love, you know, I love, um, how you can see just this one little glimpse into a character's life and understand the whole thing. I think I have like a little bit of a short attention span, so I, I have a, I focus better on short stories, but I also just love the form.

So I mostly read short stories, but I also read novels. You know, they're like, um, I love Miranda July. She just had a, a novel, All Fours, out and I read, you know, devoured that. I love that book. So I, you know, there's a mix, but mostly I'm, you know, attracted to short story collections. 

Zibby: And what is your life like when you're not working on a short story and teaching?

Mary: That's a good question. You know, I'm teaching. I, you know, I do, I do spend a lot of time writing. I have a young daughter and so I spend a lot of time with her and, you know, tooling around LA, going on hikes, those kinds of things. 

Zibby: Amazing. I am not a hiker, I have to say. 

Mary: Are you not? Oh, there's so many beautiful hikes here.

I know you're out here a lot, too. 

Zibby: I am, but the last time we started hiking, and right as we were entering the trail, which I put up a fight even starting, we passed this man with this giant stick, and he's like, watch out for all the rattlers. 

Mary: Oh, I know. 

Zibby: Okay. And I just like turned right around and walked out.

Yeah. 

Mary: Oh, you can't worry about that. Oh my gosh. I 

Zibby: can worry about everything. 

Mary: We find sort of easier hikes that are, you know, doable and, you know, not anything too treacherous. Yeah. Although there was one we went to in Malibu, I think last year, where we were like, you know, walking over logs to get over like little, um, streams.

And like, I was like, this is beyond my skill level, but it was really fun. At the time it was kind of scary, but then, you know. We liked it. Looking back on it, it was fun. We got a little wet. 

Zibby: Well, as we were just chit chatting about before recording, it's so exciting that you have a partnership for this book with Cafe Lux.

Mary: Oh, I know. 

Zibby: For those people who are not in LA, it's like, you know, well, it would demean it to say it's like the Starbucks because that's everywhere. But these are like boutique, lovely, uh, coffee shops scattered throughout with the best chocolate chip cookies that I've had in LA, especially if you get them warmed up a little bit.

So it's just so exciting that they are partnering with, with, uh, The, the goodbye process and custom coffee and all sorts of great stuff. So. 

Mary: They have the goodbye blend little bag of coffee. Sherry sent me a picture in it. So exciting. 

So much fun. 

Zibby: Oh, well, for those short attention spans, which is basically every single person on the planet these days.

Short stories are a perfect respite and great for, you know, like one little hammock ride in the summer. You know, I could just see. 

Mary: I know. Yeah. Yeah, I, I like that, too. It's, it's nice that you could, you know, read a story from the beginning to the end in one sitting. 

Zibby: Mm hmm. Especially the two pager. I mean, how can we not?

Mary: Yeah. 

Zibby: Thank you for making us feel enormously accomplished. 

Mary: Yeah. 

Zibby: And how has, I know I can barely ask you about publishing since I am your publisher, but how has the publishing been relative to what you thought it would be? 

Mary: Uh, it's been great. It's been, you know, it's a, it's a fun process. It's, um, you know, going through all the edits and everything.

It's been, it's been a lot of fun. I've had a really good experience. 

Zibby: Okay. Well, you don't have to tell me the truth. 

Mary: No, no, I really have. And, you know, and you've been so wonderful. I know you, it's amazing to see how hands are, hands on you are with this whole thing. Um, and I've, you know, come to you personally with a couple of things and it's amazing that you're still here.

You know, all the different things you do. I don't know how you do it, but. 

Zibby: Um, thank you. 

Mary: I'm great.

Zibby: I'm sitting here listening to you being like, I'm clearly never going to write my next book is what's going on here. 

Mary: I know, I know. I follow your Instagram, so I see that your deadline is looming. Oh, I don't know how I would do with like a looming deadline like that with unwritten material.

I think it would be really scary. 

Zibby: Mm hmm. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

Yeah. So I'm kind of jealous of you, as you have this completed, you know. 

Mary: Yeah. Yeah. 

Zibby: So what, what do you think is next for you? What is coming up? 

Mary: Well, like I said, I have, you know, I do have a novel, you know, started and it exists somewhere on my computer.

I'll dig that up at some point. I've been busy with this right now, but then I'm also working on another short story collection that's a little bit more closely linked, following the same characters. So it's more of a novel in stories. So those are two things that I'm, you know, working on right now.

Working. 

Zibby: And do you, do you have advice for aspiring authors? 

Mary: Yeah. I guess my, you know, practical advice is to, you know, just to get in the chair every day and have some kind of routine, whether it's writing, you know, um, 200 words a day or two hours a day or even 10 minutes a day, anything, whatever routine you can have.

I think that really helps, um, whatever you can make time for. And then on like a more personal note, something that helps me is line from a Raymond Carver poem that I really like. Um, it's. The poem is called Sunday Night. It's a really short poem, but the first line is like, make use of the things around you.

And then he lists like a few different things like, um, you know, this woman bumping drunkenly in the kitchen, the sound of the light rain, the Ferrari in my head. And then it's like, put it all in, make use. And for a while I had as my wallpaper on my phone, make use. And it was just a reminder to me to keep my eyes and ears open and pay attention to everything that's going on around me.

Like what is, You know, what sounds am I hearing? What, you know, what do I see? What, you know, what am I thinking about? All these different things, I think, make fiction writing come alive. So I guess my advice is to stay open for business. You know, keep, even when you're not writing, you can be writing. 

Zibby: Yeah. I like that.

Okay. And because it's the summer, as this book comes out, what is your favorite, what are some of your favorite summer activities that you can only do in the summer, which is hard to ask for someone in LA, but still. 

Mary: Yeah. You know, I like swimming. I like, I like hiking. Like I said, I really like nature. I like getting outside.

Um, I love the ocean. So, you know, we go to the beach a lot, you know, the usual summer things. 

Zibby: Amazing. Love it. Mary, thank you so much. Again, so excited. Actually, now that I'm looking at the cover again, which for people listening is a, like an old fashioned coffee pot and two little cups, I feel like I need to now find a coffee pot that looks like this.

Mary: I have, I have one. 

Zibby: Oh, you do? 

Mary: It's actually, yes, there's a coffee pot. 

Zibby: Is that how it came? Is that how we got it? Oh, is that how this cover came to be? 

Mary: No, no, I didn't. I, this was just, um, Anna Morrison designed the cover and she did this, but then somebody bought it for me as a gift. Like, oh, this is a coffee pot on your, on your book.

Um, and it's cute. And it's, uh, it's Italian, I think it's based on an Italian coffee pot. So it's a cute little, it's like a little espresso pot, I think. 

Zibby: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Super cute. Okay. Well, this is also, by the way, a perfect sort of house guest gift with, a fresh pack of coffee, or, you know, I feel like this would be something so nice just to stick in a, stick in a, especially since sometimes guests never leave, this would be a good. 

Mary: Oh really? That's a nice idea. 

Zibby: Yeah, it's a nice idea. Get it for the next, uh, next house you stay at. Anyway, okay, congratulations, Mary. 

Mary: Thanks, Zibby. And thank you so much for everything you've done to make this happen and for the wonderful community you've created. I feel so grateful to be a part of it. It's been awesome.

Zibby: Thank you. Yay. Happy to hear you say that.