Zibby chats with author Marjan Kamali about THE LION WOMEN OF TEHRAN, a heartwrenching and achingly beautiful novel of friendship, betrayal, and redemption set against three transformative decades in Tehran, Iran. Marjan describes the plot of her book, which follows two girls from very different backgrounds who form a close bond, face a betrayal, and reconnect years later in America. The conversation delves into themes of trauma, healing, friendship, and women’s rights and activism. Marjan also shares her writing process (which involves a lot of longhand writing) and offers her best advice for aspiring authors.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Marjan. Thanks so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss The Lion Women of Tehran, a novel. Congratulations. 

Marjan: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Zibby: Oh, it's my pleasure. Your book is so propulsive. I was just telling you, I'm just about done, but have a little bit left to go and like just could not finish in time. But your book is so propulsive. I just keep turning the pages and from the beginning it's like, well, what? What did happen? And what, why do they need to talk?

Anyway, let me back up. You tell listeners what the book is about, and then we can dive in. But all to say, it's, it's hard to put down. 

Marjan: Well, thank you. That's a huge compliment, and I, I'm gonna be hearing the word propulsive in my head for the rest of the day, so I truly appreciate that. 

Zibby: You're welcome.

Marjan: Because that is what I would like to be. So, The Lying Women of Tehran is a friendship story. It's about two girls who meet when they're seven years old, even though they come from very different families, very different stations in life. They form a fast friendship and they go through the joys of childhood, the ups and downs of adolescence.

They go off to university together, and then one of them betrays the other, and this creates a huge rupture in the friendship. But then, many years later, they do reconnect in America. And this book is set in the 50s, 60s, and 70s, for the most part, which were three very transformative decades in Iran, especially when it came to women's rights, and one of the two girls, Homa, uh, is all along fighting for Iranian women to be free.

She is an activist. So that's a little bit of what the book is about. There's a lot of, uh, food in there too, I must add, because I can't apparently write a novel without including a ton of food. 

Zibby: It's true. I think that's part of the power of it. It's a sensory filled book where you feel like you're shopping for walnuts or what, you know, whatever they're doing, like you're in the moment with them.

So, you know, the high school, like, I don't know. It's just, it's very cinematic-e, you know, this is how great my vocabulary is today. It's very cinematic-e no. 

Marjan: I like that. Cinematic-e is a very good word. Thank you. 

Zibby: Yeah. Let's, let's invent that. And, and, you know, there's a line in the book. You said, when I am surrounded by books, I feel most at peace.

I mean, you didn't say that. One of the characters said that. I can't remember which. Girl, it was. Tell me about that line and I know you wrote The Stationery Shop, and you're, you know, tell me more about that. And I'm looking, listeners can't see this, but behind you are like 8, 000 books. So. 

Marjan: That's right.

That's right. And these are the books that I have read. throughout the course of my life that stay. Do you know what I mean? Many books get passed on. I'm sure you know. Yeah, many a book gets passed along and these are the books that have stayed and I know listeners can't see this but they are arranged. I thought everyone in the world did this but I've since been told that no, no, but I arranged them chronologically according to when I read them.

We start with my childhood and then we go through my own adolescence and university years and on and on through my middle age years. But the character that said that line that you just quoted was Homa. She says that because she has a lot of healing to do after suffering a pretty unjust event, a trauma, that she is has to heal herself through she doesn't have the benefit of what we might have today in the West, which is, you know, therapy and access to a lot of information on how to heal from such traumas.

She has to sort of work it out on her own. And one thing that helps her tremendously is to walk and walk and walk. She eventually finds there's a therapy in that movement. But the other thing that helps her is. Not just being surrounded by books, but finding healing in reading the books. And even though I made my character say that, that's one of those lines that the character says that come from, you know, the author's heart.

I've definitely experienced that. Books have been my own therapy. not just the reading of them, but eventually the writing of them. So I can definitely relate to that. And you mentioned the stationary shop, and in that novel, much of the setting is in a stationary shop, which is really also a bookshop where the character finds refuge from the protests and demonstrations and conflict and chaos going on in her country.

And she finds refuge in this quiet, calm place filled with books. And I just feel that books can be the best agents of healing. 

Zibby: I agree. It's life changing. I feel like I just, my life is a permanent thank you note to books for helping me so much. Right. It's that's amazing. Has there been a period of time for you personally where books have been the main thing that helped you through a particularly difficult time?

Difficult period of your life. 

Marjan: Yes, honestly, all throughout, but I think I had my own life be rendered into before and after, you know, so many of us have this, whether it's through maybe a divorce or the loss of a loved one. For me, that sort of being cleaved into before and after happened with the revolution that happened in Iran when I was a child.

And before that, life had one texture. one set of rules, uh, sort of a different meaning. And then after that event, it was as if the world turned upside down. And during that time period, that short time period, when I was in Iran, it was after the revolution was at the beginning of the war. Books became extra important to me and I lost myself in the words of these authors. And I remember being astonished by the superpower that they held because by just stringing together these letters on a page, they could transport me to a different time in a different place. And it wasn't just the escape that mattered. It was the depth of experience that I was able to have and, and to put myself in other people's shoes.

And we all know books create empathy and I think for me, that time period was the most transformative with books, but honestly, throughout, honestly, they've been my therapy to this day, they remain so. 

Zibby: Wow. And I will co-sign on that. There's a, there's a passage. Is it okay if I, if I read this about Trauma.

I mean, there's a lot of passages. Wait, hold on. Okay, there are two different passages. This is chapter 26, and it takes place in 1964 from Homo's perspective, because you alternate, well, not really alternate, but you have a bunch and then interspersed, whatever. It's not like that. 

Marjan: That's included. 

Zibby: Thank you.

Yes. Yes. . Every so often, homeA gets a chapter. Yes. Okay. When you're drowning and the world feels as though it was not meant for you, when the lack of sleep and appetite make you wanna curl up and give up, when the demands of a baby are overwhelming and absolutely crushing, how do you fake the persona of a woman who is all right?

And then later on the, on the next page you say. That at times it feels that I am made of grief. I now scratch the surface of my anger and peer beneath the skin of it and find only a well of sadness so deep there seems no way out. Each day I sink and spiral. I feel there is no path back to my confidence, no space for my old energy. All of it evaporates. 

And I won't say the rest. Perfect. That's intense. That's intense and powerful. And painful, and you want to like, reach out, obviously, as I do many times in the book, and just give her this huge hug, like, I can't believe, you know, how can we help you? You know, anyway, not to give things away, but talk about writing, writing that, and it's short and to the point, and it's important.

Marjan: Well, thank you for saying that, and that is a passage that, again, you know, you write, you're like, haha, here I am, I'm making up this character, aren't I clever? And then, of course, the emotional core of so many of these expressions and feelings do also resonate with you, the author. They come from a well inside of you.

I was trying to show that. Homa, after suffering, as I said, a deep trauma, something deeply unjust that has thrown her life upside down and cleaved into before and after, she's trying to cope. But I think for a lot of women, it doesn't need to be one big fat event that cleaves your life into before and after.

It can be accumulation of many, many, many moments. It can be accumulation of so many demands that eventually wear you down, that eventually exhaust you. And in the passage that you read, she says, sometimes I feel the world was not meant for me. What I was hoping to show through those words is that for women especially, and I think the world over, obviously, in this book I'm focusing on women who are Iranian, but I really think it's the world over, it can feel like this world wasn't meant for you because you are expected to carry so much of the burdens and you're expected to do so with a smile on your face. Without cracking and by looking real pretty and perfect. And I think that creates over time a sense of exhaustion and also an anger. And I know for myself in my life, there are periods when I felt a tremendous rage, but just like homo, and I feel like for many women when you scratch beneath the skin of that anger, there's a deep well of sadness and grief.

And sometimes it's sadness at the way the world is structured and the burden you're expected to carry. But I also want to say for your readers, because that was a pretty intense passage and it's such an intense emotion that we bear with Houma that she does come out the other side and I personally found just as the writer a tremendous amount of catharsis in her courage and her ability to regain her confidence and to step into who she was again.

And even in a better way, so, so there is that hope. 

Zibby: Yes. No, it's a, another example of resilience, right? Getting through, we can get through anything and even the worst, your worst nightmare, you move on and that love is often what helps us through. 

Marjan: Yes. Yes. And friendship. 

Zibby: And friendship. Yes. Well love, that is a type of love.

I feel like. 

Marjan: It is. I think it falls under that. It's such a good type of love. It's a little underrated. 

Zibby: I agree. Do you have a childhood friend? Like that you sort of had as a model in this or not. 

Marjan: I do you know What's funny is after the stationary shop came out that that's my second novel a lot of it think a lot of people think it's my first because my first didn't get as much attention together to my little first baby But the stationary shop came out and it was you know a big success and I was thrilled I was surprised thrilled and Happy, but then I was expected to write another book and I did start one and then I was, I was about 100 pages in when the pandemic began and in lockdown, like many people, I was scrolling through Instagram and I do follow a childhood friend of mine.

She and I were best friends when I was in fourth grade in Iran. We were the best of friends. We were actually best friends until I left, and I was looking at her posts, and here I am now, this author in America, and she was at, you know, she is working for a human rights organization in Iran, and I just kept thinking how these people who we befriend when we're young, they truly shape us, and their influence on our, on our lives lasts, even if the friendship doesn't, and I started, it was through her and I hate to say it, but Instagram, her posts, that, that just kind of reminded me of this connection we used to have.

We used to play together, do homework together, share our dreams about who we'd want to be when we grew up together. And now we were so distant, just not physically, but metaphor, just in every way, literally, figuratively distant. And I, I just thought, and yet, she is still a huge part of who I am today. And that's when I chucked those hundred plus pages, and I knew I had to write a book about a broken friendship, because friendship breakups, I feel, are just as heart wrenching as romantic breakups.

Zibby: I agree. Wow. 

Marjan: Yeah. 

Zibby: Well, don't knock Instagram. I mean, you know. 

Marjan: No, I know. Sorry. 

Zibby: Don't feel bad. Don't feel bad. It's okay. It's like my home away from home. I recently reconnected with a childhood good friend as well, who was like my best friend in like kindergarten, first grade, and she came over and I hadn't seen her.

And I don't know, since at least 30 years or something like that. And it was like, you know, no time had gone by. And I wanted to know all about her parents and, you know, like, you know, when you're young, it's about your families, right? And not so much anymore. You can have really close friends and they know nothing about your personal, you know, your, your brother or whatever.

Right. But back then it's like, how's your brother? And, you know, so it was so nice. Yeah. 

Marjan: I love that you mentioned that because our childhood Friends, we also almost befriend their families, right? Because we're children, so the parents are kind of involved in everything. They're involved in playdates, and I, I love that you said that.

Yeah, you, and the other thing that I, I still remember the birthdays of all my childhood friends. It's like, it's engraved in your brain. October 23rd is Catherine's birthday. 

Zibby: Oh, totally. Yes. 

Marjan: Even if I haven't spoken to her in several years. 

Zibby: Yep. And some of their phone numbers too. 

Marjan: Yes. You and I, well, I especially come from a time when we would literally dial the phone numbers.

Zibby: Me too. Are you kidding? Yes. Me too. I just found a letter, by the way, I was reading this late last night. I had this pen pal relationship with an author when I was a kid apparently 10. I thought I was older, but anyway, I was 10. And at the end of one of her typewriter written letters, in a P. S. she says something I must have said that I had gotten a word processor.

I got my, like a, a computer. And she's like, I'm not sure about those things. You know, I'm not sure I can think that fast. Let's discuss, you know.

Marjan: Ah, would've known who would have known . Absolutely, absolutely. And that's the other thing that I do include in the line, women of Tehran, the letter writing, but also in the stationary shop.

It's a huge part of the plot, but I come from a generation where we wrote letters. Every friend who's ever written a letter to me, I've kept their letter and I have vanilla folders of all the letters they've ever sent to me. So when they visit, if they visit, it's like, um, a little bit of a, this is your life.

These are the letters you sent to me growing up. And it does, it does sometimes worry me that we kind of don't have that anymore. Like my kids won't have letters from their friends. 

Zibby: And that's the first thing when someone passes away, by the way, that I go to. I start pawing. I'm not as organized as you are.

I have like big buckets of things in random places and I have to like crawl and get on stepstools and go on my knees and just like try to find wherever I've stashed whatever, but that's the first thing you do. It's like, what do I have? What tangible proof do I have of this person? Where is the handwriting?

Where is the, what can I hold to my heart? Right? And now it's like, am I going to print these emails out? I'm not, I'm not going to print the emails out. 

Marjan: I did for a while, honestly. And then I realized this is silly. When the email first came out, I was printing them because I thought, I'm continuing my little tradition.

And then I was like, this is absurd. But the book does open actually with a letter that's sort of sparks the whole process of their reconnection because Homa writes a letter to Ellie. Those are the two friends, Homa and Nellie, and I was trying to show also how, you know, we were talking about our friends and their families and maybe their birthdays, but for those of us who remember the time when we would know their handwriting very well, the handwriting also Sparks.

Zibby: Yep. 

Marjan: And immediate emotional response. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Marjan: It's like, oh my gosh, that's Homa's handwriting. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Marjan: That's how she did her letters. That's her curly Q way of doing that. Yeah. Yeah. It's a big part of that connection. Yeah. 

Zibby: Okay. Well, now I'm depressed by my piles of emails that I'll print. 

Marjan: No, don't be depressed.

The fact that you have them. 

Zibby: I do, I do save. I do, I do save, you know, I save. 

Marjan: Please don't be depressed. The fact that you even have them. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Marjan: And I have an issue with keeping things, so I think, you know, maybe a healthy balance is what's best. 

Zibby: Well, I think I need to have you come into my house and organize the way you organize. 

Marjan: I'm so good at doing that.

Let me tell you. I think I can tell. I am so good at doing that. Like, I just, I have a very weird obsession with filing. 

Zibby: That's awesome. Yeah. Well, you know, if you need a side hustle in addition to writing best seller books, 

Marjan: So your books look supremely organized. 

Zibby: Well, I have, this is like a set piece. Do you know what I mean?

Marjan: Oh, okay, okay. 

Zibby: I don't use it. I only use the books behind me when I have an author coming. Um, an earlier book. I've had since, for like 20 years, something, I pull it out or something, you know, so. 

Marjan: Okay, okay. 

Zibby: They're not like, my functional shelves are in front of me and you don't get to see this because. 

Marjan: Oh, I love it.

I love it. The back room. 

Zibby: Yeah, I love it. Yeah. Okay. What are you working on next? Do you have another book coming up? 

Marjan: Well, yes, I do because there is another book in the works. I tend to take some time off between books and so when the stationery shop came out, I was out doing book tour and promoting it and during that time, it's almost like it's a different part of your, your personality that's out front. And I, I wasn't truly able to write. And right now, because The Lion Women of Tehran comes out in July, I'm not really in that writing mode but yes, there is another book in the works and I feel when I'm not in that writing mode and when I'm not tethered to the desk, I do miss it deeply.

I miss it so much. I feel like I'm just pretending in life. It doesn't feel real. And I kind of need that time at the desk. This is actually literally the desk where I sit. And, I don't know if you know this, but a lot of the first draft, I write longhand. 

Zibby: Wow. 

Marjan: So I'm even missing my computer. I rarely miss my computer.

But I do miss my notebook, and I do miss my pens because, what I miss when I'm not in the writing mode, and I'm not in the flow day in day out, is the movement of my hand across the paper. It's a beautiful feeling. 

Zibby: Oh, I love, I just love this. I feel like this, this whole conversation is hearkening back to a bygone era.

I

Marjan: know, I know. I'm your girl for all the old things. 

Zibby: Great. 

Marjan: Honestly though, we are depriving ourselves of such a joy. Of course, you can do it when you journal, which I also highly recommend to the people listening who never asked for my advice to begin with. 

Zibby: But they're gonna get it. 

Marjan: Yeah, just like my kids get it.

I highly recommend journaling practice. I just feel, what a, beautiful form of meditation, therapy, slowing down, putting into order, maybe the disordered thoughts that are flowing through you. What a beautiful way of doing it. And I get that, you know, we, we get all of the words down when we type, we do, it's faster, mind you, but there's something in the slowness that is incredibly sensory, and you brought up the word sensory at the beginning of our discussion, and I feel, you know, longhand, and I'm not the only author, I'm sure you know, having done all these interviews, Many authors, especially the first draft, they do include some longhand because it's the movement of your arm, it's the visible ink sort of appearing on the page that feels like borderline magical, and it's the scratch of the nib of the pen on the page.

Don't get me started. I'm just a little bit too obsessed with this. But it is a very sensory thing. It's a very calming sensory practice. 

Zibby: Wow. Well, okay. I'm going to go back to it. I used to do it, too. I mean, I have all these handwritten journals from when I was younger, and then, you know, like everything. I switched to typing things out.

Marjan: No, I know. We do, because it's more supposedly convenient and all of that. 

Zibby: But no, I see. It is convenient, but it depends what the goal is. Is the goal just the words, or is the goal the experience of the words? of getting the words out and all of that. So I'm convinced. I'm convinced. 

Marjan: Thank you. 

Zibby: You sold me.

You got, we got one more. You added something to my plate. Thank you very much. 

Marjan: Yeah. Oh yeah. Just what you need. This will help with the other things. 

Zibby: Yes. Right. Exactly. Okay. Advice for aspiring authors. 

Marjan: My advice for all aspiring authors is probably the advice they've heard a thousand times, which is please read, read, read.

I have sometimes students who tell me they're working on their novel and I get all excited. And then I ask them what they've been reading and they say, oh, well, I don't have time to read. And then I say, oh, okay, which Netflix shows have you been watching? And they let me know that they've binge watched season one through five of XYZ.

And I say, well, then how did you have time for that? You see, it's just a question of making it a priority. So read, read, read. The other advice I have to aspiring authors is throw away the clock, just throw it away. It's a useless concept to begin with, because something I tried to show in both the line, women of Tehran and in the stationary shop is something I believe, which is that time isn't necessarily linear.

I mean, I think we, we, we behave like it is as a human species, but there's so many circular moments in our lives, right? Where like, you and I are chatting. And I, here I am, middle aged woman with my books in the background, but I'm also that 10 year old kid who was reading in the basement as bombs fell all the time.

I'm still that person. We're all the people we've ever been at any given moment. And maybe the people we'll grow to be. So I would throw away the clock because I see a lot of aspiring writers feel this weird pressure that they have to publish. They must publish but what's the point of publishing if it's not that good?

So, let it simmer. Let it stew. Let it take the time it needs to take. Maybe you need to grow. And just slow down a little bit. I feel like we just need to not worry about these false deadlines we set up for ourselves. That's my second piece of advice to the aspiring authors. 

Zibby: Wow, there's something just incredibly nurturing and inspiring all at once wrapped into your advice.

Like, I feel like, okay. It is so sage. It's not, it's things I've all heard, you know, I've heard everything before, but yeah, the way you say it, I feel like I listen. I don't know. Anyway, but reading is not my problem. So I at least got that one off your list. You got that down. Thank you so much for coming on.

Congratulations on this really great book and I will be finishing it in bed later tonight because I need to know what happens at the end. 

Marjan: Yes. Fair warning. I'm told those, I know you said you have 30 pages to go. And I know from the people who've read the advanced copy that it's precisely around there that you'll need your box of tissues.

Zibby: Okay. Well, I got to a really, you know, brutal part just now. So. 

Marjan: Okay. Okay. 

Zibby: Okay. But thank you. Okay. Tissues coming. Okay. Tissues. And then I can write about it in my journal. Okay. 

Marjan: With your pen. 

Zibby: My pen. Okay. Fine. Bye. 

Marjan: Bye. Thank you so much. 

Zibby: Thank you. Thank you so much. 

Marjan: Thank you for having me.