TV writer turned novelist Jordan Roter joins Zibby to discuss MOMS LIKE US, a sharp, funny murder mystery set in the cutthroat (and neck-lifted) world of elite Los Angeles private school moms. Jordan shares how a frustrating back-to-school night and real-life glamping trip inspired this story; why she wrote it as a novel instead of a TV show; and the complicated, messy truths behind modern motherhood, competition, and community. She and Zibby dive into the book’s Big Little Lies-meets-Glass Onion vibes, the challenges of writing multiple points of view, and what it’s like to fictionalize familiar spaces without offending the carpool line…

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome Jordan. Thank you so much for coming on.

Totally Booked with Zibby to talk about Moms Like Us, a novel. Congratulations. 

Jordan: Thank you so much, Zibby. 

I'm so happy to be here. 

Zibby: Aw. I inhaled this book right when it first arrived forgive me if I mess up anybody's names with this full cast of characters. I feel like I watched a little sitcom and not sitcom, but like a limited series or something in my head about this whole community.

So thank you for that. I got a lot of entertainment out of it and we'll never look at the parking lot at the grocery store in quite the same way again, so thanks. 

Jordan: At Trader Joe's? 

Zibby: Yeah, at Trader Joe's. Yeah. Yeah. We have a Trader Joe's right by my kids' school, and now I'm like, huh? What are moms doing around there?

Jordan: What? Yeah. What's really happening there in the mini when they're rocking? I don't know. 

Zibby: Okay. Talk about, what is your book about? 

Jordan: So well the book starts with a murder as any good satire does. So when someone ends up dead at the, this private school's annual glamping trip in Santa Barbara, we go back through the school year and we follow these four Los Angeles private school moms who really would do anything to protect their kids and their secrets.

And we are trying to figure out throughout the book. Who died, how did they die? And everyone has a motive. So it's got a little bit of that, big little lies, vibe, and also glass onion a little bit. I hope those were the goals. And when you said, that it felt like a TV show.

That's really great to hear because I'm a TV writer. 

Zibby: That's right. 

Jordan: And a feature writer. And so I, I really wrote it with the intention of it being a show and so I'm really happy that it read like a show. 'cause that's important. 

Zibby: Why didn't you write it as a show? 

Jordan: I wrote it during the writer's strike.

And and I had actually started writing it before that. I had a really frustrating back to school night when my daughter was in sixth grade and was one of those back to school nights that I just left feeling really like useless as a mother. And and frustrated with the school and frustrated with the administration and feeling like I wasn't doing enough.

And I started writing it that next morning, and this was four years ago. And then and then I shelved it. It was like therapy, and I hadn't written a novel in 15 years, so I'd been writing for TV and film. So then I, then it was the writer strike and my book agent who I. Stayed friends with was like, Hey, great time to write a book.

And I happened to be in Santa Barbara on the school glamping trip at that time. Oh, so it all, that's how it all happened. 

Zibby: That's how interesting. Okay, so who did you want to be murdered? 

Jordan: Sadly, there are, there, there are a lot of people that I, I. Was frustrated with, I don't know that I want anybody murdered.

I'll just say that. 

Zibby: Okay. 

Jordan: I will also say that we share an editor. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Jordan: And I wanted to call the book Milk Mothers I'd like to Kill, and Carmen was like, that's adorable. No. She was like, definitely not. And I was like, but it's not like they want to k it's not mothers I'd like to actually kill.

It's I wanna kill her. It's like I wanna, I'm frustrated, like I'm, and but yeah, she was not having that. 

Zibby: Yeah. Okay. 

I like this title. Moms Like Us. I guess that's because, everybody feels related to that. Sarah Harmon has this book out. 

Jordan: Yeah. It's a little aggressive.

The other one. 

Zibby: Yeah, there's this book that just came out. All the other mothers Hate me or something like that. Yeah, it's in the same like the this like inner world of competitive moms and the dance that

Jordan: Yes. 

Zibby: That so many people do and exposing that. Thing. 

Jordan: I also think that there's really there's this moment in time that there's two things going on.

It's like this, so much truth telling about what it's like, really, like all these memoirs, the mother load, the tell is coming out and getting I'm so excited to read. I haven't read it, but I've read about it. 

And with all fours it's like this, it's I feel and you talked about this in your podcast with your most anticipated books, when you first started talking about that, and you're like, why do I keep gravitating toward these, perimenopause, menopause, women talking about what it's really this like the radical truth telling of what it is like to be a woman, a mom, working, not working expectations, juggling it all. And it's I feel like we're in this moment now where it's okay to say to say your true feelings without being judged for it necessarily. And that was really my goal in writing.

This was like, 'cause I have. Honestly, I have a lot of like awful thoughts and it doesn't mean that like I actually am ever gonna say those out loud. But when I read things about women who share some of those thoughts, I feel less alone. And I'm like, oh, I'm not like a terrible person. I just had this thought and, like a ticker.

It went past and it's okay. It doesn't necessarily make me a bad person, but.. 

Zibby: Jordan, what if you are a bad person? 

Jordan: You know what I could be?

Zibby: And you're just surrounding yourself with other bad people to make yourself feel better. Maybe there's that. 

Jordan: That could be it. That could be it. And by the way, that's a great idea. But, so I, so when I was writing this, like my thing was like, especially for the women who I was writing about who really like an annoyed me and I was and I was frustrated by, I wanted to get into their head and I wanted to understand why they might be behaving the way they were behaving. And find some sort of humanity and something that I could like about them. And hopefully I found that hopefully, all the women aren't, there's something to like, and something human about all of them. That was the goal. But I also wanted to take some of the terrible thoughts that I've had and amplify them like by 30. And then, and see where that..

Zibby: It turns out it took you into a lesbian relationship with the headmaster. 

Jordan: That's right. 

Zibby: Should we maybe explore this a little bit?

Jordan: It's funny, I was talking to my friends, Jessica Dell, who are two women who are married, and I was talking to them a lot about because I really wanted Millie's first experience kissing, Eva to feel real. And I have not kissed a woman. And so we had these very in-depth conversations and it was really great.

But it was so funny because. Jessica looked at me at some point in our conversation. She's aren't we lesbian? I was like, maybe she's maybe you're interested. And I was like, I'm interested, I'm writing about it. But it was like, yeah, it was great to, to like really have that conversation with them and I learned a lot.

Zibby: So it felt, it seemed very authentic, but what do I do? 

Jordan: Thank you. 

Zibby: But not to the, not to, what's the word? Not to exclude regular romps because you have plenty of those as well. 

Jordan: Oh my God. So many of those. And I my, so my daughter is dyslexic and she does not love she's an audible listener audible learner.

So she was like. And she doesn't love reading because she had such a hard time getting into it, which was a little bit like heartbreaking for me. But at first, but now it's actually great because we read like a lot of her books for school together and like we read Camry Rowe and it's been so fun.

But she was asking if she could read it and I was like, I don't know if that's the best idea, I think, and I think it's gonna be a little too cringey. I think she, she won't get very far. 

Zibby: No. So that's the good news. 

Jordan: Yeah, that is the good news. And my son has no interest. He's 12 and he is no. Yeah.

Zibby: Yeah. But what do you think, like moms in your community, right? Because you do poke fun at like the whole school and all the different sort of mom archetypes, if you will. Yes. Different ways. And of course every population has people who skew one way or the other, into. The, some of the characteristics that you, IM your characters imbue, so I don't know, is there anyone you're particularly afraid of seeing at Dropoff, having read this book?

Like.

Jordan: Oh yeah. Yes. Not at Dropoff because especially my, the school I was at when I started writing it, I'm no longer at, and I actually really loved that school. I have nothing like, and the school it's based on is a thousand. Not a thousand percent, but not that school.

Okay. It was actually based on another school that my kids didn't go to, but some of the, but the experiences and certainly the people was inspired by my experience there. But I did say to Carmen when we, when I agreed to, publish this and we were moving forward with it, I was like it can't be published until my son gets into seventh grade. That's so funny. 'cause I just don't, I don't want, I had such a terrible experience getting my daughter in and this book was so born out of the trauma of that experience and going through that experience. That I was like it. That's why it's coming out in May versus March. 

Zibby: That is so funny.

By speaking of Carmen, by the way, I've been changing my next book a lot and I read your book and I was like, oh, maybe I could try multiple points of view, right? That would make this process go faster. Like I'll just keep jumping.. 

Jordan: And so did you try it? 

Zibby: So I pitched this idea to her and she was like.

You don't wanna try that? No. Don't even go there. And I was like, okay, fine. But I appreciated yours. I appreciated because it's essentially four stories. Or like you're like it has to and it all has to come together. And it actually is quite complicated. 

Jordan: But It's, when I started writing it, I didn't know how it would all, like I started writing it really like just as like these individual kind of stories and then I weaved them together as time went on and I I figured out, and one of the, one of the storylines which like talk about being stressed out about, seeing somebody at drop off or carpool in LA Carpool. Is there, there was the whole tennis club storyline.

Did come from a friend of mine who I actually love, but who had an experience with the tennis club, and that was like the light bulb moment because actually there was a time with Ronee was I don't know if you ever worked with Ronit Wegman. 

Zibby: She was, yes. Yeah, she's wonderful. 

Jordan: So she and Carmen and I were on a Zoom together and it was like right after my first draft, and they actually wanted me to get rid of one of the points of view because she wasn't clear enough.

And it was funny, once I found that thing for her, the, the tennis club was part of it and it connected her to Heather and, that was like the key for me. And it was just one moment of, an experience with a friend who had a hard time getting into the tennis club, and it was this, it unlocked a whole character for me.

So it's that's the good thing about writing what you know is like every time you walk down the street, you get inspiration or you. You get some kind of like idea which is great 'cause I don't go very far. I work from home. My kids like, go to school nearby.

I stay in my lane. So it's, that's good. 

Zibby: So take me back to how you became a writer to begin with. So what happened? What happened where you grew up? Gimme the Quick life story. 

Jordan: Yeah. New York City, mean streets, the Upper East Side, very tough. Went to Dalton, went to Brown, not well educated at all.

And then I wanted to be, so I did sketch comedy in college. I was always, and I did standup. And then I went to New York for two years, which was like a lost two years. I was depressed and couldn't find myself. I was trying to act, I couldn't, like I, and then I moved out to LA and I had always wanted to live in California.

I don't like bad weather. I, I just like I always say I never really felt myself in New York, even though I lived there for the first 25 years of my life. And then I moved out here and I made a whole community and life for myself, and I've been here for about 25 years, but I came out here to be an actress and and to do some standup and sketch comedy and back then it was a little bit different.

But, I was told I was very funny, but that I was not pretty and thin enough to be the leading lady and I was not fat and ugly enough to be the quirky best friend. And that's all there. Those were, that's all there was. Then in, 1999, 2000, which doesn't seem that long ago, but in the grand scheme of things, when you look at, who's doing comedy now and who's, it just, I feel like there's a little more room for other types of women to be funny and successful, and it just it, and I couldn't handle it.

I just didn't have a thick enough skin. So I got into, so I kept doing Groundlings at night. And I went into production and development for years. And then I met an agent at a party. I didn't know he was an agent. He is a book agent Richard Abate. And I was telling him about my experiences as an assistant and he was like, you should write a young adult novel about it.

And I was like. Okay. And we sold that off of 50 pages. And that was how I got into writing young adult fiction. And then I wrote another book called Camp Rules, which I then adapted into a feature for Paramount. And that's how I got into feature writing. And then, so I wrote features for a bunch of years, and then I sold my first TV thing.

And then I started staffing in tv and then I started, so I write. Hour long, like Dramedies, and I write comedies for television and I write movies that never get made, and also television pilots that never get made. But, and then I, luck. Sometimes I get lucky enough to get staffed on a show and I actually get to make things, and that's really cool.

I wrote on this freeform show right before the strike called The Watchful Eye, which I don't think a lot of people saw, but it was so fun. I went to Vancouver, produced my episode. It was. It was awesome. 

Zibby: That is so cool. 

Jordan: It was great. And now hopefully I'll adapt moms like us and I have a couple other things, but the novel writing is a lot of work.

I don't know how you do it with all the other things that you're juggling. 

Zibby: Not well apparently. I just threw out my last draft, so yeah. I was like, oh, I don't like this at all. This is no. Anyway. Yeah, I think most, unless you are a full-time novel writer, which not many people are like, you have to find time on the fringes of life, right?

When between teaching or your job or your kids or whatever. Like the days of I don't know, being in a cabin. And just writing there. There's some people who have had enough success that I've interviewed who can do that now, but nobody starts out that way usually, yeah. Yeah. So we all just fit it in, just fit in.

Jordan: I also feel like I'm a bit, you know how they say there's like method writers and a method actors. I'm like a method writer where I feel like, I, I. I, I have to go a bit dark if I'm going dark, like I have to get into those, like that kind of mindset. So it's very hard, like if I'm planning to be working all day from home and then I have a kid home sick who's can you make me a grilled cheese?

And I'm like. Writing a sex scene and, a minivan, a woman cheating on her husband in a, in Trader Joe's it's really hard to go to those places when you're also momming. It's it's, at least, it's hard for me. And so it was really like. Finding those moments and just saying kids, if you need anything, like if they're at school, you have to call your father.

You, I can't, if I can't have and I don't know if you get these texts from your kid kids. I get a text that's like capital letters mom. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Jordan: And that's it. And you're like, what is happening? What? And then it's I got a, a b plus. Okay. Lose my number. Come on, this is crazy.

I can't, I can't do this. 

Zibby: I get a lot of texts that just say answer period, and I'm like. Stop yelling at me. I didn't hear it. My ringer was off. What's going on? Are you okay? 

Jordan: Yeah. 

Zibby: It's, and then I have, the other day I was really focusing and trying hard to write something. Not that I, and usually I try to, take off, close out of my text or whatever, but I didn't, and like my mom was like.

I can't figure out this form, could you just help me with this form? Like how, what do I put for this, these two blocks of text or so, and I was like, I don't know. No one's ever asked me that before. Just make something up or leave it blank. 

Jordan: Yes. 

Zibby: And then I tried to go back typing and then she's that's not working.

What if I do this? And I kept going back like five times and finally I just leaned back and I was like, you know what? Like I just, I can't do this all, I can't do this. 

Jordan: No. The best is when my parents. Forget that I'm on their text chain, so it's make sure to get the yogurt with the, the vanilla and not the thing. And then it's did you record Grey's Anatomy? And it's guys, I'm on this text chain. It's okay, sorry. Anyway, so make sure to fill up the car. I am like, guys, I'm on the please again, lose my number. Everyone just lose my number.

Zibby: That could be the title of your next book. I was just thinking that you should totally do that. That should be your like, but not not fiction. Just make it my memoir, like essays, like funny essays about, hashtag mom life or whatever 

Jordan: I love. All right. It be publishing. 

Zibby: Okay. I heard you can't put you from Carmen, 

Jordan: I know. I know. I know that Cap. Carmen wants to do a bunch of short stories called Lose My Number, but I love it. I'm like, this is you just, yeah. 

Zibby: That could be funny. 

Jordan: I go off and write after this. 

Zibby: Okay. Yeah, right. Love it. Everybody could relate. I am short. 

Jordan: Yeah. 

Zibby: Okay. So what are you working on, aside from this new book that we came up with, are you working on?

Jordan: So aside from this new book we just came up with, so I'm actually pitching the adaptation of another book right now. It's called Stone Cold Fox. It came out a couple years ago. 

Zibby: Oh yeah. 

Jordan: And so I'm working on that. With Julie Plex Company. She's a big TV writer director. I actually worked with her a million years ago when I was an assistant to Kevin Williamson, which is like a funny kind of coming around.

So I am pitching that out to buyers. And I, we just are sending moms like us out to producers now, and I actually work with my husband on a couple things producing. So we have a couple projects that we're pitching with other people writing. My grandparents always worked together. They worked together in, they were in the Garmin industry and I, they had the greatest relationship.

Like the way you and Kyle sometimes do, collaborate on things. I think it's. It's both like wonderful and also drives me nuts sometimes to work with my husband. It's a lot of lack of separation between church and state. Most of the time it's really wonderful and we we really compliment each other.

'cause I'm more the creative and he's a real, producer of many years and he's working with your brother? 

Zibby: Oh, no way. 

Jordan: Yeah. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. You must have, I think you told me that, but I totally forgot because. 

Jordan: He has this amazing project with Teddy and and so they're like trying to get talent and,.. 

Zibby: Oh, that's so great.

Jordan: Yeah. Yeah. 

Zibby: Amazing. 

Jordan: So maybe sometime next time you're out here we can all go out. Yes. That'd be fun. Something like that. 

Zibby: That'd be really fun. I'd love it. That would be fun. 

Jordan: Amazing. So that's and then, I don't know if I'm gonna write another book anytime soon. It was, but who knows?

I had a different ending for this book, and it's how I imagine the first season of the show ending and. I sent it to Carmen with like my first draft, and Carmen was like, you can't end the book this way. And I was like, but it's it's not brilliant, but it's and she's Jordan, there's I don't think there's gonna be a sequel to this book.

And I was like, but there's gonna be a season two. And she's yeah. So you put that in the show. She's we can't end the book on a super duper cliffhanger. And I was like. Okay.

So anyway, that's, that was it. But so Carmen, Nicks the milk title and the ending, and I have to say, I think she was right about both. 

Zibby: She's usually right about most stuff. 

Jordan: Yes. 

Zibby: Yes. So that's 

Jordan: She's coming to the book party. She's, 

Zibby: oh, yay. 

Jordan: Yeah. 

Zibby: Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Amazing. Okay Jordan, first of all, also these have to, this cover should be like tennis bags.

Are you making little tennis bags? 

Jordan: I should, 

can I take, can I take a picture of you holding it? 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Jordan: So I can put it on. Hold on. Okay. I wanna I'm, you know this because I'm, I saw you at Shine Away. I am just getting used to like social media and all the 

Zibby: No worries. 

Jordan: And you're the master okay.

Zibby: Hardly but cute. Okay. Hopefully I don't have too many things open on my desktop, whatever. But this is such a treat. I've been looking forward to this. I was a little nervous. 

Jordan: Oh, come on, please. 

Zibby: Do you remember when I first met you at Shine Way? Yes, of course. It. That I was in the middle of having 

Jordan: Yes, a hot flash.

Zibby: A hot flash, yes. 

Jordan: And it was 

like broadcast news. 

Zibby: I couldn't tell. You knew you felt bad. I could not tell every, you just can't really tell 

Jordan: You were so sweet. You were so sweet and sympathetic. 'cause I was like, I had sweat dripping off my notes. 

Zibby: You didn't. 

Jordan: I did. And like I went to the bathroom after and like I had to like peel my clothes off.

Like it was, I had such a hot pla Oh my god. It was crazy. I'm on estrogen patches now, so we're all good. 

Zibby: Okay, great. So next time I will not bring the squeegees and all right. 

Jordan: Perfect. This was such a treat. Thank you. 

Zibby: This was so fun. Thank you, Jordan. 

Jordan: Thank you for all your support. I really appreciate it.

Zibby: I hope see you in person soon. Okay? 

Jordan: Definitely. 

Zibby: Okay, bye.