#1 New York Times bestselling author Jojo Moyes returns to the podcast to discuss WE ALL LIVE HERE, a warm and witty new novel about a woman and her unruly blended family. She and Zibby delve into the novel’s rich layers—from single mom Lisa's messy, heartfelt journey to the unique pain of teenage friendship fallout and the surprising love stories of older characters. Jojo shares her insights on writing humor in dark times, the evolving nature of family, and why laughter is essential for survival.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Jojo. Thanks for coming on Totally Booked with Zibby. Now we're talking about We All Live Here, which I loved so much. I love this book. I love the characters. Oh my gosh, I'm like obsessed. So thank you. Thank you for writing it.

Jojo: Well, thank you for having me back. 

Zibby: Of course. Of course. Can you start by just telling listeners what the book's about? 

Jojo: Okay. Well, it's kind of a very small canvas. It's a, a. Tragicomedy, if you like, about a family who we meet at a time of crisis and for whom things get a little more complicated before they get better.

But it's mostly revolving around Lila, who is a recent single mom after her husband decided to run off with a neighbor and impregnate her. And now Lila has to see them at the school gates every day. And her mother recently died. So her stepdad came to live with her and that's proving challenging for her and her two chaotic daughters.

And then in the middle of all this, her biological dad, who she hasn't seen for decades reappears, having finally exhausted all his avenues of credit. tolerant ex girlfriends opportunities that he had after being a kind of semi successful Hollywood actor in the 80s and 90s. 

Zibby: Amazing. Well, there are so many layers to the story and so many entry points for, for people there.

One of the many storylines is about Lila's daughter, sealy and the effects of when friends at school, she's a teenager, just stop talking to you. And she has this moment where she says, like, I wish almost they were being physically hurtful, because then at least I could tell someone or people would understand.

And my, my teenage daughter, by the way, as I was reading this was texting me that like something similar, not the whole thing, but like pieces of this were going on. And I was like, this is literally like life art. You know, this happens to so many people in some way, you know, big ways, big or small, but I love that you put not only Lila's journey, but that you have her daughter's journey in there as well.

Jojo: Well, I think it's because when we first see Celie, Celie 16, when we first see her behavior externally through Lila's eyes, she just looks like a typical teenager who's playing up, you know, she's missing school. She's smoking weed. She's being kind of grumpy and answering back. And, you know, she's just not the girl that Lila knew and loved.

But when you see the world through Celie's eyes in a later chapter, you realize that this poor girl is dealing with so much the fallout from her parents divorce. She understands that her mom is a mess and she's trying to kind of not heap extra pressure. But as you said, she's been ignored by her friends.

And this is, this came from a thing that a friend told me that her own daughter was going through. And I was so shocked by the kind of random nature of it. Like at school, sometimes somehow you can get judged for wearing the wrong laces in your shoes or eating strangely when you're, you know, eating a hamburger or something.

If you make a weird noise. And so I talked to my kids about it and I was like, was that how it was for you? And then, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. There was this girl who put the wrong colored nail varnish on or who said something stupid and then everyone throws her out and then the other kids don't want to get bullied themselves so they also add to it.

And because it's social media now and because of the advent of smartphones, whereas when you and I may have been at school, we got to go home and life was normal. Outside the school gates. Now it's 24 7. You know, they can see what they're being excluded from. They are vanishing from the snapchats and the whatsapps.

And it's just a permanent torture. So I wanted to show that we don't always know what's going on in other people's lives, even when we think we're really good at understanding people's motivations. And that goes for all the generations. 

Zibby: That's true. Oh, well, I, I really love that. And it is this sort of unique brand of cruelty that happens at school age and that, you know, it's not like we have resources for, you know, bullying is sort of different, but anyway, I don't mean to go on and on about it, but I feel like you captured it in a way I haven't read before.

And it's so important to talk about anyway. So there's that. I love the whole storyline where Lila is an author writing her own book, dealing with her agent, um, writing the book and then getting feedback, but it's also like we're getting feedback on your book at the same time and like when she gets feedback from her agent about the first few chapters and says, Oh, it's a little mopey.

Like we need some, you know, sexual midlife, you know, post men, you know, menopausal, you know, steaminess or whatever. And she's like, menopause. I'm not in menopause. And I was like, oh, you will be by that. And then she's like, all right, I guess I'll go on a date so I can write something about it, which of course gets her into trouble.

But I just love seeing that the writer you know, Lila as writer, tell me about adding that in and even the excerpts that we get from her of the, of the book and the deleted excerpts are so genius. I loved it. 

Jojo: Oh, well, it's mostly because, uh, as a writer, I can only do fiction. Like the idea of writing about my life.

I'm exposing my life to public view is so hideous to me that even when I was writing those scenes, my, my body was kind of curling up inside. So Lila agrees to write a book about being a sexy single, you know, semi menopausal mother who's finding her way in the singles market. And nothing happens. And so she's, at one point, reduced to trying to make stuff up, which is, of course, terrible.

But I think, as an author, one of the fun things is to put your characters through situations that you know you will never be able to face. And I, yeah, I'm in awe of people who can write about their own lives and just still exist in the world, but I couldn't do it. And it turns out Lila couldn't either.

Zibby: Yes. Well, it was a nice sort of interlude, and you also have the Spanish soap opera going throughout, too. Like, that was so random. Tell me about that. Not random, just like so delightful as an addition and unexpected. That's a better word than random. 

Jojo: Don't know about you, but sometimes I, I really take courage and comfort from fictional characters, and so there is a telenovela on one of the streamers that Lila becomes quietly obsessed by, and while she is showing up in the world In kind of a passive state when we meet her, you know, her husband has done this terrible thing.

He's now got somebody else pregnant. She's having to deal with the consequences and sweep up the mess as far as her daughters go. This character who she becomes obsessed by is a much more vengeful character and much more capable. And so I think it's Estella Esperanza, her name is, and she, you know, goes into disguise and, and visits all sorts of vengeances upon her ex husband and his new young mistress.

And I think Lila may not realize it at the time, but it sort of helps form her into someone who's a little more active and present in her own life. And yeah, I don't want to say too much about it, but she doesn't behave quite as badly as the character, but it definitely helps. 

Zibby: The storyline of her stepdad and her biological dad and their own love relationships of their own and their relationships with each other.

Her lost, her mother who has passed away and has like a naked photo, a naked painting in the, in the hall. Oh my gosh, which I love what you did with that at the end. That was so funny. That's also great because it's wonderful to see sort of later in life, like. I know what's her name, Florence, who came by who was so, you know, and then you have a scene from her point of view too.

And tell me about writing in, in that and sort of love throughout the ages and what that means and how it shifts over time. 

Jojo: Well, I think I remember being kind of 25 and looking at my friend's mom who was single and dating and was in a complete pickle about something and thinking, Oh my God, well, when I'm 40, I'm going to know.

I'm going to have it all sorted out. I'm going to be fully in control of everything. Like, why is this woman 45 and, you know, in a mess about her love life? And hey, guess what? I'm now 55 and I realize I know nothing about anything. And it just made me laugh so much. And I remember my dad going to visit an old friend of his, an artist who was in his seventies.

And this guy was really ill and pretty much on his death bed. And when dad met him, he was weeping. And dad said, you know, what's wrong? Is there something I can help you with? And he said, I'm in love and she doesn't know I exist. And I was, and this guy was like 76 and dad came back and said, oh my goodness, it never stops.

Like you can, feel that level of passion at a time where most of us assume people are putting on our comfy slippers and just watching the TV. And so I guess that's what I wanted to show is that human life is messy. Families are messier and how we show up in our love lives and how we feel about people doesn't necessarily get any softer or easier.

You know, we're still prone to big passions, big misunderstandings, and there's something kind of glorious about having people who are of a pensionable age just falling in and out of love and getting their knickers in a twist about it, as we would say in England. 

Zibby: I don't know if that makes me feel better or worse.

Jojo: Well, yeah, I know. I get it. 

Zibby: Can I just read this one part? Sure. This is just her state of mind. This is towards the beginning, but I could have picked like 8,000 other passages, but she does not want to think about her ex husband and his effortlessly gorgeous new partner. She does not want to think about his and Marja?

Marja? 

Jojo: Marja, yeah. 

Zibby: Marja? Marja's spotless home up the road with its sparse selection of stylus objects and Noguchi coffee table. She does not want to think about her absent mother, who had somehow made all of this mess so much more manageable. Some days, Lila feels as if she's battling everything. The furious, slippery contents of her brain, her wavering, unreliable hormones, her weight, her ex husband, her house's attempts to fall down around her ears, the world.

In general. Ugh. I mean, so many, I feel like I, you could post that in a little Instagram square and everyone would be like, yes, I feel that way too. That's my life. Yes. 

Jojo: Well, I guess one of the things I try and do when I write is just to make readers feel a bit less alone. I mean, I'm astonished how messy life is and, you know, on the outside I frequently look like I've got everything going on.

You know, I've got a good career, I've got these great kids. My life is, you know, by any objective standards, pretty great, but underneath all those things I have battled with the contents of my brain. I am obsessed with the fact that my trousers are too tight. My kids might be going through something that I can't tell anybody about.

I'm feeling guilty because I'm not visiting my elderly parents enough, you know, all that stuff. And, and the thing that astonishes me about women is the way we carry all of this stuff all the time. I don't know any women of my age, say 40 to 55 who aren't involved in a kind of constant rolodex. There's one for the older readers of things to do and things to cope with and, you know, questions to answer.

And it's it never gets any easier. And I remember my, my best friend and I, for a few years when things were pretty tricky, we just ended every phone call. And we used to laugh because every phone call ended up with a phrase; It's a lot. And I guess this is a book that just shows it is a lot. But hey, we're all going through it. And I think there's no point fibbing about it.

There's no point, you know, glossing it. I don't, I don't trust people who. show up as, as if everything's perfect. What I like is women of this age meeting each other where they are and going, Oh, you did, you survived what? Oh, good luck to you. You know, well done. And yeah, or I've been through that and I feel like there's a fantastic solidarity among readers as well as just women in general.

Zibby: And it's so nice to feel a part of that community when. Like you said, some of the things we can't talk about, we don't post about, we don't share publicly, doesn't mean it's not keeping us up at night or making us cry or whatever, right? We all, we all carry so much and being able to see just one woman.

Who, it could be okay, you know, even her, the threat of her home, I know that homes are like on my mind at the moment, but like there's, there's time with Dan where there's a moment where she might not be able to afford to even keep her home. What does that even do? The instability of it all. And really, what instability are any of us really guaranteed?

Like, not much. 

Jojo: Really not much. And of course, you in America have felt that more keenly than most. And I think in general, there is a kind of existential instability to do with the political situation, to do with climate change. Most people I know are feeling unstable on quite a visceral level. And honestly, that's one of the reasons why I wanted to make this a comedic book, because I feel like bringing comedy into your stories is not a matter of making it less than or kind of, uh, lightweight or just something that's less worthwhile.

I truly believe that our brains are not designed to cope. With the level of global grief and instability that is bombarded that we are bombarded with on a day to day basis, you know, a hundred years ago, we might have read a newspaper once a day or received a couple of letters from people who were going through stuff.

Um, now it's on 24, seven news. It's on social media. It's coming to us by emails from our friends. It's on globally emails. It's by telephone calls. There is no letter. So my, And it's no coincidence that my books have got funnier as everything's got darker because I honestly believe our brains need it. We need to have a little respite and laugh at something in order to cope with the bigger stuff.

Zibby: I totally agree. Yes. And there were so many funny parts of your book, just the whole. all the dialogue, all the interior monologue of it, and all these hilarious situations people end up finding themselves in. It's a great sort of antidote to things that can feel overwhelming. But that's just it, right?

Trauma mixed with humor. You have like pain, joy. I mean, that's just how to survive, right? And it never stops. 

Jojo: Yeah, exactly. I mean, when you look at the emergency services, they have all the best jokes. And there's a reason for that is because they've worked out the only way to deal with that absolute darkness is to kind of throw jokes at it and make light of it.

And it doesn't mean that you don't feel it. It doesn't mean that you don't respect it as an entity, but you have to combat it somehow. And you have to protect yourself. It's like putting your oxygen mask on first. And sometimes that's going to involve laughing. And that's okay. 

Zibby: I love that. 

When you set out to write We All Live Here, what was like the one sentence pitch and did that end up being the heart of the book?

Jojo: I think it started off being more about the two old men. I just, I love the film The Odd Couple and I wanted to write something about a messy family and I didn't see much when I was reading fiction, uh, about the kind of different shapes that families are now. I didn't see. Like I grew up with a half brother, two half sisters, two stepbrothers who are much older than me.

And we all like each other and we get on and we have a strange shaped family, but it doesn't mean that it's any less than. And I just thought, I don't see many of these families represented now and what it costs to get us to that place. And the fact that when we get there, we're not problematic. We're not a drain on anything.

We're supportive. It's just that we're a different shape. And so I wanted to write about a family that was kind of misshapen, but I did try it with two women at one point. I tried to have the two, an elder, you know, a mother and a stepmother. But it just, and I'm really sorry to any male readers out there, but it just wasn't as funny.

There's something inherently funnier about two old men fighting over something than there is about two older women fighting. It's just a different kind of game. So yeah, that's how it started off. 

Zibby: Who knew? I would have thought it started with the husband leaving or the school gates or who knows? 

Jojo: Well, Lila kind of took over.

So, yeah, that's, yeah, it became her story, um, but you can't always tell who's going to dominate anything. Sometimes the characters just walk out and speak for themselves. 

Zibby: How long did this all take you to write? 

Jojo: This was really fast. And that never happens for me. And I think it's no coincidence that I changed my life dramatically.

Uh, two years ago, I got rid of the big country house that I lived in, which had a lot of land and a lot of animals and a lot of chaos. And it was very old. It was a typical old English house. So it was always falling to bits. And so a lot of my life and energy was spent devoting myself to it. The running of this place.

And then suddenly I moved to a house in London, which was much smaller. I have far fewer responsibilities. Two of my kids have left home and I didn't realize the impact that this extra energy would have on my writing. And I was so anxious when I was writing it. Cause I'd like I'd 40, 000 lines before I knew it.

And, and I remember sending it to my agent and just. Saying is this any good because it's coming so easily to me that I feel anxious that it's actually not good enough and then I gave it to my best friend as well and both of them just came back going, No, we want more. It's really funny and we love it.

And and it just showed me, oh, okay, when you let go of some stuff, it's amazing how you can refocus your energy. And so, yeah, I'm hoping that maybe I'll become more productive. 

Zibby: So this is the secret. You just have to get a house in London and then you're set. 

Jojo: Yeah. Yeah. 

Zibby: Ship your kids off and get rid of the chickens and it's all going to fall into place.

Are you working on a new project now? 

Jojo: I am. I'm unable to talk about it because I'm at that magical point where I haven't yet decided whether I'm going to keep it or get rid of it. But if, if it works, it's another slightly comedic story. And it's, if it, if it works, it's set in a very lovely European city.

Zibby: Okay. I'll take that. 

Jojo: Okay. 

Zibby: And what about Movie stuff. No, any news on that for this or other projects? I know you've had so much film. 

Jojo: Well, it's kind of a weird time in film and TV at the moment. I think, you know, with the strike and everything else that has gone on, uh, it's definitely a more challenging environment right now, but I'm working with a couple of really good production companies and we have a couple of ions in the fire.

The thing that I'm most excited about, if we can get it away as I've written three episodes of the giver of stars, which we're turning into a television series. And I cannot tell you how much I am enjoying that process. It it's really nice to do it as TV because you can really let something breathe. And I love the people that I'm working with.

So I'm just. Praying that we can find a home for that. 

Zibby: Oh, I love that. Congratulations. So fun. Amazing. Well, I really want to see this one. We all live here. It could even be a play. It could be a really fun play. 

Jojo: It could be a play. You're absolutely right. It's, I've never written something on such a small canvas before, and it was a lot of fun because what I really love writing about is character.

And so I just got to play with characters for the whole thing and, and not do any kind of serious, you know, research into World War II or, you know, the Appalachians in 1930. It was, it was a lot of fun. So yeah, thank you. I'm really glad that that came through in the writing. 

Zibby: Absolutely. Well, Jojo, thank you.

Congratulations. Thank you also, last time we spoke, you gave me such great advice on like avoiding burnout and all of this. You were so, such a comfort and I really appreciate it. So thank you for that. 

Jojo: Oh, well, you've clearly gone from strength to strength. So, you know, anytime I can help. 

Zibby: Thank you.

Jojo: Although I do know nothing. I know that now. 

Zibby: That's not true. That is not true. 

Jojo: Amazing. 

Zibby: Well, thank you so much. 

Jojo: Thanks, Zibby. Nice to see you. 

Zibby: Nice to see you. Bye bye. 

Jojo: Bye.