Zibby chats with bestselling author Jess Johnston about PERFECT IS BORING (AND IT TASTES LIKE KALE), a hilariously candid, refreshingly self-aware, and deeply heartfelt exploration of letting go of perfectionism and finding connection through honesty. Jess and Zibby discuss motherhood’s messiness, resisting the comparison trap, the power of supportive friendships, and the freedom that comes from showing up as you are.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Jess. Thanks so much for coming on Totally Booked with Zibby to talk about Perfect Is Boring And It Tastes Like Kale, finding belonging and purpose without changing who you are. Thank you. 

Jess: Thank you so much for having me. 

Zibby: As you can see by our introduction here where I was in the wrong place when we started, uh, my certainly not perfect and your advice was right on point for me, so thank you for that.

Jess: Oh, I love that. 

Zibby: Um, why don't you tell listeners what your book is about? 

Jess: My book is really about my own journey with perfectionism and also just realizing how powerful it is when we find out we're not the only one struggling through life making mistakes, not hitting this invisible mark that feels, no matter where we reach, it's gonna always be out of reach.

I feel specifically for women in every area of our lives. And so letting that go and learning that I'm not alone in the process and actually there's so much connection to be found when we're real and vulnerable about the hard stuff, the messy stuff, the imperfect stuff is really, really powerful.

So that's what I hope women get from this book is the feeling of connection. And the feeling of just being able to embrace ourselves how we are. 

Zibby: I'm about to cry. Thank you. I need this. I need this. No, I feel like especially at the end of the year, and I know this episode will come out later, but we're all just racing and there are a thousand things on our list to do, and it's just hard not to feel like balls are constantly dropping. Do you still feel like..

Jess: Yeah, it feels impossible because it is. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Jess: Like this never ending list that we have. It is impossible. 

Zibby: Great. Well I'm glad we're clear on that. Can I read a section or two of your book? 

Jess: Yes, yes. 

Zibby: Okay. Okay. First of all, you're so funny. 

Jess: Oh, thank you. 

Zibby: There's this, you said you're talking about scrolling on Instagram and you're like, my thumb hovers over a girl. In high school, she has so many cool tattoos. I feel like I'm a full sleeve person on the inside. Maybe I should get one. Oh my gosh, so funny. I love that line. But anyway, uh, you go on to say, sometimes I have a hard time staying in my own lane, especially if I'm particularly unimpressed with my lane at that moment, like in the morning when I know my next big, exciting activity is going to be scrambling eggs and desperately searching the house for my kids' socks.

I don't know if I should say this out loud, but sometimes my life is a little boring, so I get distracted by someone else's life. And then I get stressed out because their life also seems hard to achieve. My lane is where my piece is. I know that it's just that. It's also where the laundry and the dishes are.

I'm working on it. I love that. Tell me a little more about staying in your lane and looking at other people's lives and wanting what they have. Even if you don't really know the full story. 

Jess: Oh gosh. I just feel so, I'm so easily distracted. I think, and especially like I said, when things are a little boring or I would also say when things are stressful, when I feel like I'm maybe not measuring up in the things I want.

To achieve in my lane. Then I start being like, Hmm, what's everybody else doing? It feels, and it also feels very like inside my body, it feels like being rushed. 

Zibby: Hmm. 

Jess: Is the feeling I get. Like I'm hiking on a trail and there's someone coming up fast behind me, and I feel like I got a race ahead. But for me, it's been really, really important to just let it go.

Let go of who I am and or who I'm not, and kind of embrace who I am. I'm a pretty messy person. Like I have a lot of quote unquote flaws. Not super organized. I never know where my kids' socks are. Like ever. Every morning is like a scramble to find socks for all of us. Side note, once you have teenage girls, they want the socks to match and also be the right brand that matches the shoes. So that's like a whole other thing. 

Zibby: My teenage girl will only wear my socks, so now I have no socks. 

Jess: Like I was, I was literally just talking to someone else who said the same thing this morning. 

Zibby: Yeah, finally. I just found a pair of her socks this morning and I was like, ha, take that Lululemon socks. Stop taking them from me.

Jess: Yeah. I know once you can share clothes, that's been a whole thing, which I kind of love. I love sharing clothes. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Jess: And I have friends that have those strengths, or I see people who clearly have like these perfectly curated houses. Clearly very organized. And so then I can, it's really easy to start being really hard on myself, but I'm just in a place in my life where I wanna let that go.

Like I'm probably not gonna know where all the socks are, maybe ever. Maybe I'll figure it out, maybe not, but that's okay. I have other strengths that I can lean into. And no matter what I am accomplishing or achieving or doing, there's gonna be balls that drop, I guess. 

Zibby: And meanwhile, from the outside, people will look at you and be like, oh my gosh, if only like, you know. 

Jess: Yeah. 

Zibby: I've written two books. You've got this big following. 

Jess: Yeah. 

Zibby: People are probably just like, what? Yeah. So what? That her house is messy.

Jess: Right. 

Zibby: Like why? Why is that the thing that you have determined will measure your success? 

Jess: Right. But it's so empowering when we realize that we all have that stuff. It doesn't matter who you're looking at.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Jess: They have stuff that they feel like they're dropping or it's not meeting the mark. 

Zibby: And I love that you found real validation through a close girlfriend because. My gosh, what would we do without our girlfriends? 

Jess: Oh, yes. 

Zibby: And that you said something like, you know, I'm a mess today, or whatever. And she's like, great. I, I still love you when you're a mess. Or it doesn't matter what your house looks like, or. 

Jess: I was like, totally. That's ridiculous. 

Zibby: It's true. 

Jess: It was totally mind blowing to me. I think specifically, like I was, um, my house is a mess. I was a mess emotionally. I wasn't like, I'm like, I'm not gonna have fun today. I'm just all kinds of chaotic and overwhelmed.

And she was like. She was completely unimpressed with my whole list of things that I'm failing at, quote unquote. I was like, I like you when you're fun and not fun. I like you when you're a mess. When you're not a mess. And that's just like the most brain thing. 

Zibby: These could be greeting cards. 

Jess: Yes. Yes, they totally could.

Zibby: An anti perfectionist greeting card. 

Jess: Yes. Yes. I love that. 

Zibby: Here, let me jump to another section. I like every other page here. Here's another one you said. When we moved twice, three years later and landed in a town where the high school had more than 2000 kids, I felt like I was drowning. I was just a face, just a body taking up.

Face just one awkward teenager in a herd of teenagers. There were a few people who took the time to notice offering me a lifeline. I was in desperate need of. One was the woman who ran the writing center. She encouraged me in my creative writing process, letting me know she saw me and heard me talk about when you found writing to be helpful for you and how it has continued to be? 

Jess: Oh man. I think that started as a little girl. I remember books like reading were always such a huge thing for me, and I remember for some reason I remember cutting up this line of paper into little squares and then writing like a teeny tiny book in like third grade.

But I was also super overwhelmed by it. Even as a kid, I was like that. This is gonna be so hard, like I have to write a whole story or 150 pages or 300 pages. Um, but it was always just a language that gave a way of communicating that really unlocked something in me. Ability to express what was going on inside that I just really fell in love with.

I probably fell in love with it the most in high school 'cause I was really struggling. I was really lonely. I started to get friends in my senior year, but I really didn't have a tight-knit community. So I did really feel lost and alone. And that was definitely a saving, like a lifeline for me. 

Zibby: So when people are feeling at their most alone, aside from writing and when they're feeling the most self, when they're feeling the, the hardest on themselves, how can you get other people to do what you've done and say like, it's okay. Like, I don't care about being, not that you don't care about being perfect, but how do we let go of some of those expectations? 

Jess: Hmm. So, such a good question. First of all, I just like to say to every woman in the whole entire planet, like, it's okay. You're okay. No matter what the list says, no matter what you feel like you're failing at, I promise you're okay and you're not the only one, whatever it is.

But I think finding others, finding friendship based on. Vulnerability in that reality. And I really think that takes stepping out and kind of being honest with the things that we're struggling with. And it can, it doesn't have to be these huge, deep things to start with either. It can very simply be, I was super frustrated this morning trying to get all my kids fed and I had a terrible morning.

Or you know, it can be very just admitting, admitting to someone else. That it's not perfect and that it's actually hard sometimes and you feel like a failure in this area or that area. I have just found that to be what unlocks for me an ability to just like si a sigh of relief when another woman looks into my eyes and is like, oh my gosh, that was me yesterday. Or, I get it, you're good. There's just nothing like, I think getting outta my own head, getting out of your own head. That can just be crushing these cycles of thoughts and pressure can be crushing. 

Zibby: So what's something you feel like you totally dropped the ball on lately? 

Jess: Hmm. Well, I have teenagers, so I feel like all the time I'm like, maybe I have four kids. I feel like all the time I'm like winning and connecting with maybe one or two of them, and then I need to work on my relationship with the other two. It's very hard. We're miss. I'm missing it with my 14-year-old daughter, but okay. Feels good with my 18-year-old son. And that's hard 'cause I wanna feel in a constant state of. Good connection and making sure I know what's going on in their lives. And you know, 

Zibby: I literally, I, as you, I also have four kids and as I was putting one of them to bed last night, I was like, I feel like we didn't really connect this evening. 

Jess: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: Like, 'cause I had an event and then I came home and then I was at my desk and she was doing her art project and dah, dah, dah.

And then she was reading and I was there and I was like, we didn't like to have a good time. Things tonight. And she's like.. 

Jess: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: That's okay. Like we don't.

Jess: I know 

Zibby: Every second. 

Jess: Yeah. 

Zibby: And she's like, I had a great night. Did you have a good night? And I was like, I did. And she's like, great. Good night. 

Jess: Totally. Totally. 

Zibby: So I also feel like sometimes we feel like we need to be giving more than maybe even the people want to be receiving.

Jess: Absolutely. I remember a mom who was like a decade or two ahead of me in the process. She also had four kids and she told me this story about when she had a meltdown. Like she went through just a very difficult time emotionally, and it was like a month or so where she didn't, she was dealing with all this other stuff and she didn't feel like she was as present as she wanted to be with her kids 'cause she was.

She remembers, you know, sometimes I would put a movie on for them and I'd just lay in bed and cry. And when they were older adults, she asked them, do you remember that feeling so guilty? And her kids were like, yeah, that was awesome. We watched so many cartoons. Like them, their memory of it was not terrible at all. It was. Completely fine. 

Zibby: Yeah. It's the stories we tell ourselves. I think that's really..

Jess: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: What your book was saying over and over, it's like what we tell ourselves and how we frame the things that are happening can be the worst part about it. And we, yeah. It doesn't all have to be perfect and organized and it can't be. So let's just roll with it. 

Jess: Totally. And let's do it together 

Zibby: And let's do it together. And you actually moved for a friend, which is rare. Talk about that. 

Jess: Yeah. Yes. Well, so my, our closest friends and us decided to move together. She's the one, she is, she was the keeper. I had to keep her, 'cause she was the one who was like, I love you messy or not messy, or whatever.

I'm like, okay. So we all decided, we didn't feel settled where we were living. We were living in Montana. Our kids were more little, but I was like, if we're gonna make a move, I wanna do it sooner than later. And we had dinner with these friends one night and they were kind of feeling restless too. And we're like, what do you think about moving somewhere but moving there together?

And I don't know, they're like, let's do it. So we, um, took a trip, actually some other friends joined in to see if they wanted to move too. And we got a little Airbnb where we live in Santa Barbara now, and that's where we got the little Airbnb and just kind of spent the week exploring like, is this a place where we could see raising our kids?

Does this feel like it could be home for all of us? And Santa Barbara really lures you in. It's very beautiful and sunny and we're of course all like, yes, this is it. 

Zibby: Absolutely. 

Jess: And so we did it, but it was amazing as I moved a lot as a kid, I will say it was moving. It can always be difficult, but it was very incredible moving to a completely new place.

But having friends with so much history that as you're struggling to find your way, you can be like, what do you have in your fridge? I have this in my fridge. You wanna come over and just. Vent and talk about. How it's going. So it was, it was really wonderful. It's been almost eight years now. 

Zibby: Wow. And I saw you at Godmothers.

Of course. 

Jess: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. 

Zibby: Up there. Oh my gosh. 

Jess: Oh, it's amazing. 

Zibby: You're so lucky to have it. It's great. Um. 

Jess: And I loved your bookstore. Finally, got to visit. 

Zibby: Oh thank you. 

Jess: Wonderful. 

Zibby: How do you go about growing your platform because you've also pulled that off along the way. What are some of the things that you have found most successful? Or is it just being really authentic and hoping people find you? What, how do you do it? 

Jess: Hmm. That is a huge way that I've learned to stay in my lane. There were a lot of voices like, you need to do this, you need to do that. For me, what worked was really telling my truth, not in like a. I'm not like most everything out there, a vulnerable person on the internet, but just talking about what I'm dealing with in my life right now in whatever area it is.

At the beginning it was all about motherhood and the messiness of motherhood. Then I started talking more about friendship and how it can actually be very difficult to make and maintain friends as an adult. But yeah, speaking your own, something that really resonates with you, there's a big chance that it will resonate. With others as well. 

Zibby: And just to give Kale a better wrap than you gave it on the cover here. You were like, I actually don't even really mind Kale. 

Jess: My friend was like a newer friend. Well hang on, Jess. I actually really like kale. I'm like, okay, but do you, are there things you like better? Like cheese or chocolate? And she's like, all right. Alright.

Zibby: Oh my gosh. Uh, do you have another book coming in this series now? 

Jess: Not yet. I am, I am reeling right now a little bit. I like taking a moment, but I, I don't know if you feel this way, but it always feels like there's words inside of me. I just don't know. Where they're going to land. And I also feel like as my kids get older and are gonna start leaving for college, this is a whole new landscape and all kinds of feelings and emotions I'm wrestling with now. So I don't know the words are coming, but they're not quite there yet. 

Zibby: Oh, the page will be waiting. 

Jess: Yeah. 

Zibby: Not to fear. Jess, thank you so much. Thank you for all the reassurance that I found reading your book. I know others will feel the same way. Perfect is boring and it tastes like kale. Thank you so much for coming on.

Jess: Thank you, Zibby. 

Zibby: Okay. Take care. 

Jess: Thank you so much. 

Zibby: Thank you. Have a great day. 

Jess: Bye 

Zibby: Bye.