Jenny Lisk, FUTURE WIDOW
When Jenny Lisk’s husband started feeling dizzy one day, they had no idea the cause would be terminal brain cancer. In an instant, Jenny had to become a caretaker to her husband while also figuring out how she was going to parent their two kids as a widow. Now five years later, Jenny hosts the Widowed Parent Podcast and has written her first book, Future Widow, to offer the advice she wishes she had to those in her position as well as friends and family looking to help.
Transcript:
Zibby Owens: Welcome, Jenny. Thank you so much for coming on “Moms Don’t Have Time to Read Books” to discuss Future Widow: Losing My Husband, Saving My Family, and Finding My Voice.
Jenny Lisk: Thank you so much, Zibby. I’ve been looking forward to this all week, all month, all
Zibby: I’ve had this on my bedside for the past week or so as I’ve been reading it. My husband’s like, “Is there something I should know?”
Jenny: I didn’t really think of that when I named it. The title was just too perfect, so I don’t think I would change it even if I thought of that. That’s an interesting reaction.
Zibby: I’m assuming it came from when you were invited to that group in the hospital. You were like, “Is this the future widows’ group?” or something.
Jenny: Two things. There’s that. Then also, I was very much in the spotlight during this eight months when my husband was sick. We had a large community following us, helping us, supporting us, which was terrific. I felt very much in the spotlight. I would go to pick up the kids at school. I remember walking around feeling like — you know in The Scarlet Letter, Hester Prynne has a great big A?
Zibby: Yes, that’s right. Yep, I remember that section. Yes, yes.
Jenny: I felt like I had an FW on my shirt, future widow. I was walking around. People would probably be thinking very nicely, oh, there’s that poor woman. She’s going to be a widow soon. Everybody was super nice. It wasn’t that. It was probably more me feeling it, but that was definitely part of this sense and I think what made sense for the book title as well.
Zibby: I do remember the Hester Prynne section of your book. I totally understand that feeling where people know what’s going on. They don’t know what to say. They don’t know what to do. There’s something you can just feel. It’s like the porcupine pricklers come out of everybody. It’s something just like, whoosh, this extra sensitivity. I totally understood that. Maybe I should back up and have you explain to listeners a little about — I know your subtitle kind of sums it up — what this book is about, how you decided to turn your CaringBridge entries into this memoir, and what else they should know about it before I ask you a zillion other questions.
Jenny: Gosh, how long do we have? We could talk all day about all that.
Zibby: I know. I know.
Jenny: Let’s see. Just to set the background a little bit here, my husband Dennis had glioblastoma, which is a very, very aggressive type of brain cancer. I had never heard of it before. Now we’ve heard John McCain — actually, I think the anniversary of death was yesterday or the day before. Beau Biden died of the same thing. It’s become a little bit more heard of these days. It started for us when he just was feeling a little dizzy. No big deal. In fact, I had dropped off my son. It was a busy Friday. You’re a mom. You know how it goes. You’re running your kids around. You come home. He’s just come from work. He’s sitting on the couch. He has this funny look on his face. I actually thought he looked kind of pissed off about something. Maybe something had gone wrong during the day. I knew something was wrong, but I didn’t know what. I said, “Hey, what’s going on?” “I’ve been feeling a little dizzy lately.” A little dizzy, okay. Maybe he’s dehydrated. Maybe he hasn’t gotten enough sleep. Who knows? We had this whole conversation about, maybe he should call his doctor. What had he been noticing? and blah, blah, blah, as you might do. I went out and got takeout. It was a Friday night, so I wasn’t going to call his doctor. It would just be, does he need to go to the ER or something? He wasn’t passing out. He wasn’t having seizures, nothing dramatic. I went and got takeout. Came back. Then of course, I’m like, “Okay, how are you doing? How are you feeling?” He looks at me and he says, “Oh, I’m okay, but I’ve been feeling a little dizzy lately.” I looked at him. I was like, what? I’m calm on the outside. “You know, you just told me that.” He said, “I did?” I’m like, oh, my god, what is going on here? “Yeah, twenty minutes ago, we were sitting right here,” etc. etc. He said, “Really?”
Then I’m thinking, okay, this is too weird. I don’t think he’s pulling my leg here, but then he was totally normal. Cognitively, he seemed normal. I’m thinking, am I overreading the situation? Am I imagining things, second-guessing myself? Fast-forward, I observed him for about a week of this getting progressively worse. I was like, all right, I’m calling his doctor. He had called, of course. They’re like, “Come in in three weeks.” I’m calling the doctor. I’m stepping in and saying, “Look, this is what I’m seeing.” They said, “Bring him in today. Let’s get an MRI.” Then they said, “Actually, go back and see the doctor right now. We’re not going to do the normal, we’ll call you in two days.” The doctor says, “There’s something really wrong with your brain.” This is primary care. We went in thinking there was a little side effect of some medicine, no big deal. “There’s something really wrong with your brain. I don’t want to scare you. It might be glioblastoma.” I’m like, “What’s glioblastoma?” “You have to go see the neurosurgeon tomorrow.” Fast-forward, we see the neurosurgeon. He says, “We’re doing surgery the following day.” That started this whole thing, what became eight months of terminal illness and me being a caregiver and me being a future widowed parent and not knowing, how do I navigate this with the kids? This feels big. This feels like it’s going to impact them. It obviously is going to impact them in some way forever. How do I do this so hopefully it doesn’t destroy them? It’s always going to be part of their story, but how do I do this with a better outcome than a less-good outcome? Ended up creating a CaringBridge journal and blogging. I’m rambling on and on here. Which direction do you want to go with?
Zibby: No, I love it. It’s great. People listening should hear it because that’s a lot of the book, is your telling the story. That’s the way you wrote the book too. It’s as if we’re talking to you now. This is a perfect sample preview of the book because it’s all in your voice. You can just hear you talking. I knew this is how you would talk when I met you, which is great. I love that.
Jenny: That is so funny. That’s awesome. That’s great. I’m glad that came across. Thank you. I didn’t know that, but that’s terrific.
Zibby: It’s true.
Jenny: I’m sorry, I cut you off.
Zibby: No, no, it’s fine. So many things. One of the things I found compelling is how even though this book is about being a future widow, there was so much about your children and what it would mean to you, as you just said, to be a future parent of a child who also had lost a parent. It was in the top of your consciousness all along, even the way you talked about, in that situation, this person had my kids. Then I worried about my kids. Then they came this one time, and I didn’t think they should see my husband. Then they had a tantrum. All these realistic things, as we’re doing anything in life, even something as gutting and all-encompassing as the loss of a spouse, it’s hard to let go of the logistics of the kids and all of that stuff. It’s like the ball in the pool. You’re playing “keep it up” with the ball. You don’t want that stuff to drop. I loved how you integrated that into your story.
Jenny: Thanks. Speaking of CaringBridge, my sister suggested that I start a CaringBridge, which, of course, I was familiar with because I’ve had a lot of people in the community use it for things like this. I thought, no, I’ll just send some text updates here and there and some emails. Pretty quickly, it became obvious that that was just not going to work. You can only copy/paste text so many times. I was like, all right, I’ll start the CaringBridge. The first entries were very matter-of-fact. He had surgery. Now he’s eating. Maybe he’ll come home next week. What happened was, over time, and I didn’t realize this, it really became my vehicle for reflecting and for sharing out, speaking to my corner of the world. We had a lot of people who wanted to support us and who wanted to follow along. I needed that support. We had a lot of meals, rides, dog walks, you name it, all these things. I found that I would, if I was driving over the bridge to see him or to come back to see him or walking around taking care of X or Y or Z, I’d be turning over ideas in my head. My next post could be this. Here’s what’s happening. What are my reflections? How is it landing? What am I worried about? Then thinking about even composing words in my head as I was going around doing stuff.
Come to find out — I never heard the word anticipatory grief either. Turns out, that’s a thing. I think that I was working out things along the way by taking time to turn over ideas in my head, to process things, and then to put them in writing as we went in the form of these, essentially, blog posts, but reflecting as we went along through this eight months. Then at the end, I was like, I’ve got fifteen thousand words here. This feels like the start of something. Fifteen thousand words of journal entries are not a book, but they could become the basis of a book. Then how do you do that? I’d never written a book before. How do you turn a bunch of journal entries into something that becomes an actual compelling book that somebody wants to read that’s not like, this happened, this happened, this happened, the end? That’s when I started thinking about, okay, I could turn this into a memoir, and started working on that. That was after I started the podcast, I should say. There are a bunch of things here.
Zibby: Tell me about starting the podcast.
Jenny: It’s called “The Widowed Parent Podcast.” I felt like, all along, I wasn’t finding resources. I felt lost as a widowed parent. As far as me and being a widowed person and being a grieving person myself, I’m not saying it was easy at all. I’m saying I found resources. I found a million books. I went to Camp Widow. I found a terrific therapist. I had great friends I could talk to. There were all these things. I could see a path. I didn’t feel as lost. On the parenting side, I was like, how do I do this? Who can even help me figure out what to do here? It turns out there are a bunch of resources, but they’re kind of fragmented. You don’t really know about them unless you’re plugged in or somebody you know is plugged in. There are grief centers in communities all around the country and other places there. There are books. There’s stuff. As I was learning about this and feeling lost, I realized a podcast is a good format for me to go out and interview people, people who could shed some light on this equation, how to be a widowed parent, essentially. What do I need to know? What do I need to be aware of? What do I need to do? All these things. I realized most widowed parents aren’t going to take the time or make the time to go out and interview all these people themselves. There’s no need to.
I could stand in their place behind the mic interviewing somebody who could shed light on some piece of this and bring all these together in a weekly format and share it out with listeners. That’s how it started. I started that during Children’s Grief Awareness Month, which is November every year, which is coming up again. This was three years ago. Then eventually, what I did as I started kicking around the book ideas, I realized that I was learning an awful lot through the podcast that I wished I had known five years ago, six years ago, and so applying some of those lessons. I wanted to bring that element. This was part of how journal entries become a book, in my case. I had the journal entry. Then I added, as you know, a reflection or additional information or something after each one. In some cases, it was, here’s how things went. I wish I had done X instead because things would’ve been set up better as far as grieving kids and things. In some cases, it was, here’s what was going on. I didn’t lie about anything in the journal entries, but I also didn’t share everything that was going on behind the scenes. Some stuff, just maybe wasn’t ready to share or whatever at the time that now I said, all right, here’s some more backstory of some other things going on, and bringing that in as well.
Zibby: Wow. Now it all comes together. It’s really great, the resources you provided. It’s hard to pull off. I’ve read other books, too, where you take a — having a journal or a diary of a really emotional experience often makes people want to go back and write books about it. A lot of times, they’ll include paragraphs. It’s just hard to pull off. I think you did a really good job because it wasn’t just that you were using the passages, but I loved your reflection after the fact. Time passes. You think about it. You’re like, oh, my gosh, I remember that. There’s also something to it, too, where it’s like, you want to know. When I read CaringBridge of people or I hear about people going through stuff and you get an update, you really want to know what else is going on. What else can I do? How can I help? What are they going through? What does that look like? That’s what this book does so well. It’s like, this is what it was like coming back to my kitchen when we had been in a remodel. That was the worst time ever. Literally, I was thinking to myself reading this, I’m like, I don’t know if my school community would come out in quite the same way. You were so lucky with your community. That was so nice of all of them.
Jenny: I was incredibly lucky. Yes, I was so lucky. I learned a lot from that because I’d never been on the receiving end of support in a crisis situation. You learn a lot both on practical stuff, what people do that’s helpful, but also, you see how different people react. You see who obviously has some experience somewhere with grief and is comfortable and doesn’t run away and who seems uncomfortable and doesn’t know what to say and maybe doesn’t say anything because they don’t want to say the wrong thing. One of the things I tried to weave in here, one of the subthemes, was also how to be an ally, how to support grieving people. I realized that I was doing that through CaringBridge in real time. I was deliberate about that. Then I was deliberate about doing that here too. I’m not hitting people over the head with it, but showing an example. I’ve had readers who are not widowed parents who read it anyway who say, whoa, I’ve learned so much about supporting my friend who’s going through cancer or my friend whose husband just died or etc., of how to be a good ally just by reading my story and those elements too.
Zibby: You have a tip that I always forget. It’s so important too. Instead of asking people, how are you? it’s, how are you today? How’s your day going today? Often, you can’t think past that, when you shared your train of thought with, do I really want to go into the whole thing? Does this person need to hear the whole thing? How am I feeling? You’re like, I had fifty-seven thoughts in half a second, and then I ended up just saying fine.
Jenny: Exactly, yes. Fine was not accurate.
Zibby: Right. Of course, not.
Jenny: Listeners can’t see I’m doing air quotes here, “fine.” There was no other answer that was really possible even though it wasn’t accurate or helpful to me, to them, to anybody. Somebody asking really did care and want, usually, to know. It just would create fits of uncertainty in me. I hate that question. It took me a long time before — now I’m kind of back to where someone says, how are you? and now I can be like, fine. It’s become one of those questions in society. It’s not even really a question. How are you? Fine. How are you? Fine. Okay, good. You move on. For a while, though, it was an actual question to me. It was just terrible.
Zibby: It’s like in French, they say, ça va? All you’re supposed to say is, ça va. You okay? I’m okay. That’s all they really need to do. It’s the same thing.
Jenny: It’s a greeting.
Zibby: It’s just a greeting, right. Nobody actually cares how you are. They might care, but then that’s the next question. No, I’m kidding. They do care, but that’s not what they’re —
Jenny: — Not in that exchange.
Zibby: Although, the way you pointed it out was like, how are you? You could tell that people were saying it like that. How are you?
Jenny: With the head tilt. How are you?
Zibby: Head tilt, emphasis. You can tell me. Let’s really go there. You’re like, well, I don’t know about that.
Jenny: Sometimes it’s like, how much do they know? Have they read all the CaringBridges and therefore they just want to know the latest, what happened in the last two hours? They only kind of know her husband has cancer and there’s a problem but they don’t know the details so I should just give some more summary information? Parsing all that in a half a second and then figuring out what to say is just impossible.
Zibby: I like how you also said for all the people who came to help you, that that’s something that they needed to do too. You get a lot out of helping someone who needs help. I feel like people are very reluctant to ask for help in basically any situation. Then people are afraid to just pitch in because they don’t want to overstep and all of this. If you just show up and do something, no one’s ever going to get mad. No one’s like, oh, that person was too helpful in my time of need. I feel like people need to remember that when you have someone who’s struggling. Right now, there’s probably someone listening who has somebody they know who’s going through something or a family going through something. In today’s world, I feel like everyone’s going through something. Just send dinner. Just send something. Do something. You might as well. It’ll make you feel good too.
Jenny: One of the things that I’ve learned is that everybody wants to fix it. The number-one thing they want is to fix it, whatever fix it means, take away the cancer, take away the terminal diagnosis, take away the problem. The fact is, they can’t fix it. The doctors maybe can, depending on the situation, but your neighbor can’t actually fix the underlying problem. What they can do is fix the practical problems that you have, the fact that you need dinner tonight and you are spending all day at the hospital. Then your kids have to be here and here. Then you’re going to be too tired. Now you have a problem because you don’t have dinner to eat. They can fix that. They can fix the fact that your kids need a ride to soccer because you’re going to be doing whatever with treatments or whatever you’re doing. There’s a lot of practical problems they can fix. That helps me handle things better. I didn’t really realize that before I was on this side of it. Like you said, you feel like you don’t want to overstep or interfere or whatever. I learned when people would say, let me know if can do anything to help, that’s almost harder.
Zibby: That’s your burden now.
Jenny: Right. First of all, I might not know what I need. Secondly, now I have to be worried about, right this second, maybe I don’t need something, but when I do need toilet paper from Costco next Tuesday, if I call them, they’re probably going to be in the middle of whatever they’re in the middle of. Now I’m burdening them to — I’m probably not going to call. Then you have to make them feel like, thank you so much, and sitting here saying to yourself, now I’m not going to call you because I don’t know what you really want to help me with. I don’t know if you’re a person that I should ask for shopping or for carpools or for dinner. It’s too hard to figure it out. If someone says, “I’d love to bring you dinner. Is there a night of the week that’s not covered? What’s your kid’s favorite food?” you can say, “You know what, Wednesdays and sushi.” One person did this. He said, “What’s your favorite takeout place for sushi? I’ll bring it the next four Wednesdays. Does that work for you?” I was like, “Oh, my god, yes.” So that kind of thing. If it’s a specific offer, it’s easier for me to evaluate, first of all. It’s easier for me to get a sense of what kind of things you might want to help with. It’s easier for me to say, no, I don’t need the dog walked on Mondays, but I do need her walked on Tuesdays. Then they can say yes or no to that or whatever rather than a more global, let me know if I can do anything, which just puts the burden back on me, which is just really impossible to handle when you’re already handling all these other things.
Zibby: Wouldn’t it be great if people listening, if we could start some sort of #SendDinner something. Maybe all the people who are on their walks today and they’re hearing this conversation and they’re feeling bad, maybe, that they didn’t do it before or feeling empowered, you don’t even have to make it yourself. You don’t have to send a casserole or whatever they used to do. When I had a friend going through something, I went on OpenTable or Seamless or whatever and sent them a whole thing of pasta and pizza. I would say, if there’s somebody you know out there today, just go on OpenTable or call your local takeout place. Just have them deliver a pizza or something. It will make their day.
Jenny: You might want to check and make sure that they’ll actually be home.
Zibby: Yeah, but then that’s a whole nother thing. Just tell them to leave it on the thing.
Jenny: Along those lines, I remember one of my friends — somebody set up a meal train. People signed up for different nights. Someone signed up for whatever day. A couple days before that day, she said, “My night is Thursday. I’m going to get pizza from the good pizza place. What toppings do you like? What time do you want it delivered?” I told her. She made all the arrangements. The pizza showed up. The kids loved it because you know what? They were tired of casseroles or what you might call other people’s food. As an adult, I’m like, somebody else’s casserole? Great. I didn’t have to cook it? Great. Kids, they often like the food that’s familiar and the food that their parents cook and the stuff that feels like home or whatever. If it’s somebody else’s food, it feels maybe like you’re visiting someone else’s house.
Zibby: I’m not sure I’ve ever even had a casserole. Have you? I have the glass dishes. I’ve had a frittata or something, but casserole, I don’t know.
Jenny: My mom made a casserole when I was growing up called Jane’s Dinner Dish. That recipe has passed down through the years, so we do occasionally have casserole. Although, the kids have started to revolt about that.
Zibby: We have noodle kugel in that dish, a kugel. Anyway, I’m getting off topic here. All to say, if there’s anything to take away — there’s so much to take away from your story about how to help friends, how to help families. Your whole journey is designed to help other people in so many ways and to increase empathy and to help us really understand what it’s like for you, for the widow, for the children, all of it. It’s just picking up those small, little details and making someone’s day. It’s something you can do. So Jenny, what are you doing? You’re doing your podcast. You have this amazing book. Do you want to take this to new places? Do you want to keep doing this? What are your visions? Are you doing this for a set amount of time? I know you were an operations consultant or something. I’m blanking on the word.
Jenny: IT project manager, twenty years. In fact, I was in your area in New York.
Zibby: Oh, yeah? Awesome. What’s going to come next? Also, how do your children feel about this becoming part of your professional identity?
Jenny: They’re seventeen and fourteen, almost fifteen now. They haven’t read it yet. They’re welcome to. I think they’re in a phase where they don’t pick up books as much. There’s copies all over the house. They can pick it up whenever they want to. As far as what’s next, oh, my gosh, there are so many plans. In fact, I have heard you talking about your children’s books and your anthologies. I’m like, I’m just going to copy Zibby and follow whatever she’s doing.
I have an idea for a line of children’s books as well. I think it’s going to be called the Kids Like Me series or something like that. There’s going to be twenty-four because there are twenty-four positive psychology traits. I don’t know what they call them, character virtues or something. Each one will have a theme of each one of those. The kid in the story — these are picture books for little kids. The kid will have lost a parent, but it’s not going to be grief so much, like the dinosaur whose dad died or things like that. It’s going to be more a problem. My dad died, so who’s going to teach me how to tie my shoe? That’s the problem. Then they have to solve that by using one of the traits of positive psychology of resilience or creativity or something. I haven’t mapped it all out yet.
Zibby: I love it. It’s really cool.
Jenny: I think it would align nicely, an unexpected lesson. I learned that I’m creative. Therefore, I can do X. Even though my mom died, I found whoever to help me. I don’t know. I haven’t worked it all out yet. I think that kids need to have those kind of examples. There are other kids like me who lost a mom or lost a dad that are in the world with, also, real-life problems and situations and stuff and have that example because a lot of kids feel really alone. They don’t know anybody in their school, in their neighborhood with a dead dad or a dead mom. Just based on how the numbers work out or whatever, they don’t know anybody in their personal circles, which is one of the reasons why connecting kids with grief centers and grief programs is really useful, because then they are with other kids who get it. They can see that this is normal for a subset of the population. They’re not the only weird person in the whole world whose dad died or something.
I’d like to do the same thing through a line of children’s books, the same kind of messaging and framing around that. Then the real thing — not the real thing. I’m kind of viewing it as the magnum opus, The Widowed Parent Handbook, which will be the nonfiction book companion to “The Widowed Parent Podcast.” The podcast interviews are a lot of the research inputs into that. I’m finding it tricky to think about an outline because it’s not an easy question. If there was an answer, if I said, what do you need to know? if you know X, Y, Z, everything will be fine, the end, that would be an easy book to write. There’s a lot of different stuff to think about. Yet it’s not that there’s nothing. There’s lots of useful information people need to know. How do I come up with some kind of model and structure that? That’s all in the works. It’s kind of a matter of, what do I start first? These are all way too exciting.
Zibby: I know that energy. When you find your thing, you just can’t stop.
Jenny: Yes, exactly. It’s been a lot of fun. Connecting with amazing people both on the topic side and on the podcasting aspect and on the writing aspect, all these communities, talking with people is a lot of fun. Deep down, it’s all about helping people who feel lost and alone as I had felt and trying to get that message out and help people who can identify with some of these challenges with information and resources and help them feel less alone and just try to make things a little — I don’t know if easier is the right word, but you know what I mean.
Zibby: I know what you mean. That’s great. Last question. Advice for aspiring authors?
Jenny: Yes, good one. I think the most important piece of advice that I got which I’d like to pass on to other aspiring memoir writers is that memoir is really an act of service. I got this from Julie Lythcott-Haims, who is a best-selling parenting author and also has a memoir on the topic of race. She’s talking about how memoir is really an act of service. A good memoir, it’s not just a recitation of events. It’s not just a navel-gazing exercise of some kind. It’s intended to serve. You want your reader to learn something or think of something differently or get a new perspective on themselves or on the world or on the human condition or something. You want to introduce them to something that helps them think or moves them in some way or inspires them in some way or helps them in some way.
In fact, I heard you say recently in an interview you did with Allison Gilbert, you were talking about, memoir is like sitting down with a friend over coffee who’s going through something, maybe going through something worse than you are, and chatting with them and learning something from their story that you can apply to your life. That’s memoir being an act of service. As a writer, I think keeping that in mind, of why you’re doing it, is helpful to the story, to making the book better. I find it critical as a writer every time I was questioning myself. Why am I doing this anyway? Maybe I should just trash the whole thing. Is it going to really help anybody anyway? It’s just doubt and all that stuff. I wrote a little sticky note, “Memoir is an act of service. – Julie Lythcott-Haims.” I posted it on the wall above my computer. Every time I started doubting myself, I would look at that and say, all right, that’s why I’m doing this. It would bring me back to keep me motivated. I think for those two reasons, keeping that firmly in mind is helpful to aspiring memoir writers. Write a little sticky note. Put it above your computer if that helps.
Zibby: I have my sticky note here. I can’t even remember who said it. I was on a podcast. She said, “God never wastes a pain.” I just love that. It’s like, why did this happen? What can I do about it? I need to do something. There was a reason. I have to get this out in the world. Everyone needs a sticky note or something.
Jenny: Yes, for sure.
Zibby: Jenny, it was so nice to meet you. I’m so sorry, I should’ve started off this podcast by saying how sorry I was for your loss. I meant to say that right away. Of course, I got distracted by your book and all of it.
Jenny: No problem. Thank you.
Zibby: It was really great. I feel like I know your husband now too. It’s a mitzvah, what you did. You brought him out into the world. Thank you for everything. I’m delighted to be connected.
Jenny: Thank you, Zibby. This is great. Thank you for everything you’re doing for authors and your podcast. Your podcast, but I meant to say your book. I was reading the intro and the conclusion about your story of setting all this up. I just think it’s a terrific platform for authors. Talk about a mitzvah. To be able to help authors and connect authors with readers, you’re providing a good service to the authors and the readers. Readers want to find interesting things in this time when there’s too many crazy things to read about. We also maybe can get away and read some interesting books that you bring to us. Thank you for that.
Zibby: You’re welcome. Thank you for saying that. Have a great day. Stay in touch.
Jenny: Sounds good. See you.
Zibby: Take care. Buh-bye.
Jenny: Bye.
