Zibby is joined by New York City’s premier “house call veterinarian,” Dr. Amy Attas, who takes us into the exclusive penthouses and hotel rooms of the wealthiest Manhattan pet owners in her heartfelt and hilarious new book, PETS AND THE CITY. Dr. Attas describes her 30-year career and shares anecdotes from her most memorable home visits, including when a dog swallowed his owner’s blue pills… She expresses her love and dedication to her work and even shares some practical advice for pet owners.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Jen. Thank you so much for coming on. Moms Don't have time to read books to discuss Confessions of a Casting Director. Congrats. 

Jen: Thank you. I'm such a fan of the show, so it's such a, it's just, I'm so glad I reached out.

It's so exciting to finally see one person. I feel like we have similar paths from growing up on the Upper East side and would've been certainly friends in school if we'd met way back. 

Zibby: Absolutely. . Well, I'm delighted to have you on. Okay. Tell everybody about the book life story, how you became a casting director, all of that.

Jen: Sure. So I grew up in New York City in the eighties and desperately wanted to be on the Brady Bunch. Uh, I was watching the reruns in syndication with my sister, not realizing that they were reruns. So I wrote a letter to Channel 5 way back when and said, if you ever need to replace Cindy Brady. Call me.

Here's where I live. And here's my phone number. And then after that, I wrote to Annie on Broadway and wrote, and I actually got a really nice letter back from the stage manager saying, you know, we, we will, you know, let you know when the auditions are. So I loved the love boat. Eight is enough. I just wanted to be Acting and thankfully, because I grew up in New York city, I had access. And so there was a friend of mine in third grade, his father worked for an ad agency. He connected me with an agent and I started auditioning at age eight and then really stepped it up at age 10. I went to stage door manner, the famous theater camp that so many people have gone to.

And Jean Fox was a manager and she was just starting her company. So I was one of her clients. So I was really competitive and I say competitively auditioning from Age 10 until I graduated high school and said, I'm done and I have to go to the University of Wisconsin and have a normal college experience.

This is really scary and toxic. I mean, I think because I lived in the city, my mother took me to the auditions. I think if I'd lived in New Jersey or anywhere else, she would have never done it but for us after school, you know, you crosstown bus or a subway and, and that's just what I did. But I always knew that these auditions were so.

I just, I couldn't take the pressure, you know, I would lie awake at night and I would be praying to God the only time I ever prayed, like, please, please, please, I want that commercial, please give me this TV show and the highs and the lows, I just, it's, it's, it's really. It's so tough on you when you're young.

And I pretty much knew I wanted to be a casting director around age 12 because I have a photographic memory and I collected all those playbills and I read New York Magazine and I knew who replaced who in what Broadway shows. And at one audition, when I was 12, I looked at the casting director and I thought, well, she's got a great job because she's making all of the kids here feel comfortable.

They were mixing and matching these different groups and I thought that's probably what I'll do someday is be on the other side of the camera. And so, you know, after college, I interned for casting directors, worked at talent agency and, and that's how it goes. So I actually wanted to be a casting director as opposed to some people who sort of fall into it right after not making it as an actor or not being able to make it as a director.

But I, I wanted to do it. 

Zibby: Wow. 

So what were, what were some of the highlights of age 10 to 18? 

Jen: Well, I got really close to Growing Pains, that ABC show. I mean, I would say it's not a high, I mean, really close. So, I knew, the deal was already done if I got the TV show. I knew what the, what my salary would be per episode, and I was going into eighth grade, and so my mother and I were going to have to move to LA and leave my sister and my father.

I, I mean, waiting for that news and then not getting it. I always tell people that rejection that you have when you're 12, like, not getting into Wesley in early decision, like, meant nothing compared to thinking you're gonna be a TV star and on the cover of People magazine. But I do think in hindsight, of course, I hate watched the show for many years.

It went on and on and on. And I think ultimately it's probably a good thing that I didn't get onto a TV show because who knows if I'd be sitting here now, you know, together and with my life in one piece. It's, it's so hard to know what would have happened, but I feel like that was a really tough moment.

One of the best moments was, uh, doing an episode of Sesame Street in 1987 when Louise needed glasses and I was Jennifer with glasses. And, you know, in a really sweet twist of fate. I get to do some casting for Sesame Street now, so it's really always exciting. And I think for me, like, being on Sesame Street and having my parents, who were totally non stage parents, lose their, if I can say, like, lose their shit on set.

They both took me, and they both were, like, off with Big Bird's nest in the back. They couldn't find my parents. When we were done filming and that was the one moment that my parents kind of, kind of went, Oh my God, this is really cool because other than that they were just not, you know, nobody ever got excited about anything until there was a job and I think that's again having good parents is why I'm, I'm here today to talk to you.

Zibby: I went to the set of Sesame Street when I was in kindergarten, it was the coolest thing. 

Jen: Yeah, it's, it's crazy and even a couple years ago we were doing callbacks there to cast a new role and you're like, you're on the set and Cookie Monster comes up to you and suddenly you're taking a picture and you can't, you can't not get excited because it really is, it's your childhood, but it's also, it's also these, these people, these Muppets and characters that you love.

So it's really an honor. I'm going to start some casting for them again really soon. And it's just like, nothing makes me, I mean, Sesame Street, they did it first. You know, they were the first people to really do that type of kids programming. 

Zibby: So you mentioned your photographic memory and the importance of knowing like who's starring and what and all of the backstory and everything.

What are the things you need to have? What are the qualities, characteristics you need to have to be a good casting director? 

Jen: Yes. Well, my husband would, would, would laugh and say you have a selective photographic memory. You can't remember where to put the knives in the drawers or how to organize things.

But certainly when it comes to that, I think you have to always, your brain is sort of your resource, right? So remembering who was in what show or where you might've seen them, having a curiosity. I sit there and watch TV and I'm always looking people up to see who is in that show. And you're really putting together a puzzle, right?

Because ultimately if you were the director, Zibby, I want to make your dreams come true and give you the best possible cast. But a lot of that has to do with like the timing and who's available and also you can't be too pushy. Because it's, you're sort of the consultant on the project. So ultimately, I worked for a casting director who said, casting is like bartending.

You want to present five choices to your director, your producer, and everybody else. Let them choose, even though you know, of course, who the right choice is. So I was at Disney for a long time as a casting executive, casting the animated movies, and we were doing The Princess and the Frog and Anika Noni Rose was the first woman to come into audition.

I knew that she had all of the qualifications, the MFA in acting, the, the singing, the Tony award from Carolina change. I knew she was the right person to cast, but if you shove your opinions at your director, they're going to think you're really pushy and they're not going to want to listen to you. So you have to sort of be diplomatic about it and pragmatic.

And sometimes you feel like you're a therapist or a mother or hand holding. I will also share that, um, we can include this perhaps in the notes, I wrote an op ed for USA Today once the casting directors got their Oscar category and for so many years nobody even thinks about the casting by the time the actor is winning the award because they've been dissent and they've made the movie and the truth is way back when the casting director was the one who connected things and introduced people to the director.

And so we're psyched now because it's going to be for 2025 that they finally have that, uh, that category. So yeah, you got to have like, you got to have really good people skills. I love, you know, it's sort of like sometimes when you're doing casting sessions again, we stopped obviously during COVID, but it's like, you're like, you have a store and like, you're open for retail from 10 in the morning till six.

And sometimes there's 60 people coming to audition for you and you have to keep things moving because you're on a schedule, but also be nice and friendly and try to get the best performance out of them. Now, of course, so much as self tapes. So there's less of that in person, but yeah, people skills, diplomacy, all of that.

Zibby: I feel like I've gotten to know casting a tiny bit just because my husband started a production company. And so I've, you know, heard this person's available, this person's not available. And, It seems almost impossible, like, to put the puzzle together of the cast and the director and the writer and the this and the setting and did it, like, I feel like is there, and I just don't know about it, but is there some sort of like website or grid or why isn't there of like, who is available?

When? Like, do you have that all mapped out in Excel somewhere or something? 

Jen: Well, it's hard. I mean, it's sort of like being Nancy Drew, right? One of my favorite books. I'm sure you read Nancy Drew when you were younger. You're sort of, you're getting these clues together and you're trying to figure it all out.

And it's kind of a catch 22. Like, I worked with Peter Bogdanovich on his last movie before he passed away and we couldn't get the financing until we had a star. And you can't get a star sometimes until you have financing because no star wants to be the very first person to say yes to the project. It's not sexy.

They want to know who else is involved. So you're kind of, you're, you're sort of working in all of these, these different angles. And once we had Owen Wilson attached, then we had Jennifer Aniston and suddenly then we were financed and off they went to film the movie. But it was like five years of trying to get attachments and he was Peter Bogdanovich.

So I feel like it's, it's truly a miracle when something can happen and the stars can align. Hopefully the casting director is brought on at a time when you're really in production and ready to go. But many times you're asked to make lists and basically. offer your services while they're putting the cast together.

So, yeah, and it's a lot of clues, like Zibby Owens is not available because she's, you know, she's in Australia filming, you know, Kingdom of the Apes for six months. Okay, you're not available, but is Sue Shapiro, our beloved, is she available for, and then you just go down the list. So it's, it's really complicated.

It's a lot of logistics and a lot of not glamorous moments. The glamorous moments are obviously somebody's going to win the Oscar in 2025 for best casting, going to the red carpet and seeing the movie finally, having an actor, you know, being able to call an actor and tell them that they got the part.

Those are the moments that are really joyous for sure. 

Zibby: That's amazing. So is there, the way there's campaigning for movies to win Oscar, will there be campaigning for the casting director category? 

Jen: I don't know. I mean, it's, I don't know. Uh, I mean, look, BAFTA gave the awards out and, you know, it's, we have categories in the Emmys, but we'll, we'll see what happens.

And it's tricky because, you know, some, somebody could win for best director, but not best casting, but could win for best film. So I don't know. I mean, look, they're just awards, but we all grew up dreaming of, you know, winning them and certainly the casting directors have the Ardeos Awards. I've won a few, been nominated for a bunch, and that was our version of the Academy Awards.

And it's funny because you'd go to the ceremony and the casting directors would give these long speeches and we realized it was because this was our moment, you know, finally our moment to have, you know, to say thank you to all the people that, you know, were part of the production.

Zibby: And how does an aspiring actor get on your radar?

Jen: Oh boy. I mean, I'm so old school. So back in the days before the internet, you would go to showcases, you would go to the Juilliard Showcase and see all of the actors for that year. You would go to NYU. You would see, as my father used to call them, pieces in spaces. Crappy theater on the Lower East Side and see somebody and and so you're constantly looking. Now it's so much easier because we can sit here and do Instagram and we could go to people's websites and we couldn't go to YouTube and watch them. So we can actually technologies actually made it better and faster. But as I always like to say, just because there's technology doesn't necessarily mean you're a good actor.

So you could have a better actor, gazillion people following you on Instagram, but does that mean you can act? I don't know. And sometimes you have to do casting based on the amount of followers that somebody has. So it's keeping your mind open. I have done so much kids casting at Disney. I was always overseeing the Lion King Broadway casting, the Mary Poppins casting.

So I was the person who'd be on the subway with my husband and be like, Oh my God, look at that kid. He's got the spunk. He should come to our open call auditions. Or we would be like at a Vacation place in Vermont, and I would hear some kids voice for voiceover and turn around and be like, Hi, your kid has a great voice.

And my husband would be mortified because, you know, I look like I'm nuts. But really, it's listening and finding kids who have that spark. And also, for grownups too, if there's somebody you can't take your eyes off of, they've got something that keeps you watching. And we don't know what that is, but we know it when we see it.

Zibby: I feel like I've never actually really wanted to be a movie star, but I, now that I've been trying to sell books, I'm like, ugh, if only I were a famous movie star, I could sell this stuff, book, you know, like as a means to an end. It's true. Like you need that celebrity. It really helps. 

Jen: Now, especially I'm so listen, Lisa Sharkey and Harper Collins published Confessions of a Casting Director.

And I remember a couple of things that she told me. One is she said, you sell one book at a time. So, which is true. And every single book, single time somebody would reach out and send me a note that they loved the book, I'd say, great, can you put a note on Amazon? Would you do a review? Would you take a picture on Instagram and of the book?

Because it's nice that you emailed me, but I want to send it back out there. So yeah, one book at a time. It's, it's hard. And now of course, celebrity status, I think you've. Get book deals much easier if you're a celebrity than you as a, you know, regular people like us, but you have your own imprint. So now you have control.

Zibby: Oh, well, I don't publish, I don't publish my own books, but you know, but anyway, yeah, it's funny. How are you finding it? Marketing a book? 

Jen: Well, I, I did a lot of, a lot of stuff on my own, you know, even though I had like a publicist at HarperCollins, I just felt like you have to do that fine line because you want to promote your book, but you don't want to be obnoxious, right?

And so another thing that I learned from Lisa Sharkey was, you know, I kept my mouth really quiet about my, my book deal. Until there was something to do, right? And so I didn't tell anybody or didn't make any public announcements until there was an Amazon landing page to pre order. So I felt like, you know, people see your post, they want to have something to do.

They want to have a place to go. And so now it's like, yeah, you can like, here's where you can get the book. But at the at the early stages, I didn't want to I didn't want to announce anything too soon because you kind of want to gear it up when you're ready. But yeah, it's complicated to try to do that.

And that's why people I mean, I always say like, go to the dentist and hire a publicist, go to an accountant, like we need support and help because I'm not a publicist. I'm good at my own publicity, but to really look at what that structure is and how you do it. Then I did turn it into a podcast during COVID because I wanted to, it was, you know, I wanted to talk more about auditions, but yeah, it's one book at a time, you know, and, um, we're not, if you did the math, you know, For the amount of time it took to write the book and sit in the library and do the book.

This is, you don't do it. You're not doing it to make money. You're doing it for the love. And it was hard. One of the things I will say is that a thousand casting directors said to me, I want to write, you know, the book too. And I felt like saying, okay, do you know how? How hard it was, how much work it was to sit in the library and turn off the internet and write your book and, you know, I mean, that's always what you always asked the guests on your show, like, how do you actually sit down and do it?

And that's, you know, it's, it's so much, it's so much love and work and discipline. to write your book. How did you do it? So I, you know, my parents, my dad's a rabbi, my mom, my parents are writers too. And we went to the New York society library on 79th between Madison and um, park. And that's where Wendy Wasserstein and Lillian Hellman wrote.

And so there were times when I was writing my book up there on the fifth floor, my parents were there too. And so sometimes we'd meet for lunch and then come back. But I have to say it's, it's, I mean, the, uh, the hardest thing is you have to turn off everything or set timers, right? Because if you start to see your emails coming in, then we're down the rabbit hole of, of reading emails and all of that.

So I would sit there, I would turn off all of the notifications and I would do my work from like 9 to 12. And then I would, And then around noon, I was done because I'm a morning person. And then I would go home and start the casting or go to auditions and start my day. So I think keeping the expectations of, okay, if I could just do this for a few hours a day.

And then the rest of the day do my other stuff, then you don't have that pressure of sitting there for eight hours. I mean, you're a mom with kids, I have stepkids, and, and, you know, I don't have little ones in the house. I don't have to pick up anybody from school, but it is still Really hard and 2024 started and I, I said to myself, I've got to just start writing again.

And the only way to do that is to, you know, as I was joking, stop drinking and start writing, you know, like, like really focus, but it is, it's really hard to do it. It's really hard. And it doesn't, you know, and then you sit there and you're like, okay, I'm supposed to be working on my book. And then, you know, the Peloton's here and then get throw in a load of laundry and then go to, you know, go to the supermarket and the next thing you know, it's four o'clock.

Zibby: I have never been derailed from writing by a Peloton. 

Jen: Well, I was a, I was a talent agent for a few years and I did represent Toon Day, so I do, you know, I think for me, listen, I'm a runner. So like my mornings, my morning is my best time. So I have to. Split my time. Sometimes I want to go out and do a long run.

Sometimes I want to sit and do my writing, right? So it just depends. But you know, you can't do everything. That's the problem. So you have to make those choices. So I don't know, but it's, it's really hard. And every time I listen to your podcast, I always want the end question, which is how do you, what's, what's your tip for sitting down and writing?

I mean, everybody wants to know. 

Zibby: I know. 

Jen: And it's agonizing. It's agonizing. 

Zibby: I kept thinking, I'll fit in writing. I'll just fit it in around the edges. And you don't. So finally, I'm like, I think I have to put it in my calendar. I think I'm going to have to put it in my calendar. 

Jen: But I think you have to ask also, what's your time of day, right?

And then, so I'm really great in the morning. Um, I'm wide awake. It's when the best You know, things come to me in the morning, I do the morning journaling pages, I sort of have a final draft open and I'm dialoguing with different parts of the brain, right? The running part, the writing part, and working things out.

And then at about two in the afternoon, I'm done. That's a good time to do emails and phone calls and casting and sort of the busy work. I'm done. Then I had another writer friend say to me, that's when you should try to do some writing. Mm. Mm. Right. Cause you're, you know, you force yourself or as a runner, I'm a morning runner.

And then I'm also a running coach for New York roadrunners. Well, sometimes we have, we have to meet at 6 30 at night to run. And I, and that's not my favorite time, but it does, it works a different part of your brain. So I try to be flexible, but it's, um, sometimes an airplane is great. I know Glennon Doyle, I'm a big fan of hers.

And she says sometimes if she's strapped in on the airplane seat, she can do it. 

Zibby: Yep. Wow. And I love the essay that you wrote, for Mother's Day about your new grandchild and, you know, your whole path to what it means to be a caregiver and all of that. That was beautiful. 

Jen: I wanted to send it to you. I'm so proud because, um, and that's the Sue Shapiro sort of working with Sue, like, I, I am divorced like you and when I think back to Again, Glennon Doyle saying like right from the scar, not the wound.

And there's so much I think that you go through when you, when you go through a divorce and you, you want to have a happy ending, you want to meet somebody and you did, I did, and you don't know if that's going to happen. And for me, I, I met my husband, Andy and the girls were out of college and I was like, all right, I got grown stepdaughters.

But on the flip side, I've missed out on, you know, you look at Instagram, people are going to proms now and, you know, bar mitzvahs, um, and summer camp and all these. These parts of motherhood that I just didn't experience, but I now get to have the baby side of it, which is which is really nice and be be that way.

So thank you. I did. I got lucky, but I have to say it's everyone's like, Oh, a fairytale ending. I'm like, Oh, you have no idea. And you know, too. You have no idea what it's like to be going through a divorce and trying to rebuild your life after that. Yeah. So perhaps there's a novel in there. I, I've started, you know, I wrote a play in grad school at NYU called Beautiful Pasadena that was about, you know, my marriage and the destruction of our apartment and the bathroom as, as the remodel was happening and the economy tanked.

I wrote about that. You know, I've written it as a novel. I've written in different from his perspective, my perspective, but now it's like, seems like it's a lifetime ago, your divorce, my divorce anyway. Mine too. But that's the pain, you know, you can't, like, another thing about being a writer is I spent, like, grad school at NYU, like, writing, like, about teen actors and stage moms and sort of all this, you know, talent agents, like, kind of surface y stuff.

And every single professor I had was like, you have to go deep, you have to go deep if you're going to actually get anything. Out there and I think that as writers to the hardest thing like Confessions of a Casting Director was so fun to write because I lived it and I wanted to give advice to actors. I mean, truly the book is for actors.

It's not how to become a casting director. It's how to go on these auditions and be prepared. You know, um, and that's the easy stuff to write. The hard stuff is the, you know, the, the heartbreak of growing pains, the heartbreak of, you know, of not being a TV star when you want to be one when you're 12. 

Zibby: What is, let's say there are parents listening whose kids want to be actors.

What should they know? What should the kids know? And just a couple bullet points, 

Jen: I mean, here, I always say like, look, when you sign up to play soccer, you get your soccer uniform and you're guaranteed your schedule of games. And when you decide you want to go on auditions, there's no guarantee of anything.

It costs money to go to auditions, to self tape, to work with coaches. You come into New York city for the audition that costs money, right? And if you don't get the part, you've got to come back on Tuesday for the next audition. So yeah. You have to understand and manage those expectations that you can put in all this time with the training and you might book a job or you might not.

I would also say the kids have such a small window. So today's nine year old is going to be 14 tomorrow. So there's this tiny window where they can do it. You know, at Disney Channel, I did so much casting for them and the age was like 11, you know, like, but then suddenly if you're like 14, it's over for that.

And you can't, you're, you're done with Disney Channel. It's time to move on to other things. But listen, I think if your kid, if, if they want to do it, they want to do it. And you, as a parent, you want your kids to pursue their dreams. It's just that I would tell them to buy the book to read, you know, the stage mom's chapter.

Cause it's, I interviewed hundreds of parents who had been on tour and the sacrifices that they made. And, and. Then when they decide they don't want to do it, that's when you go back to soccer because you know that you can always, you can always play, but it's, it's hard. I do think it's about the parents because less, I have lots of friends from theater camp and we're all still in show business in some different capacity, but I think it's up to the parents to try to manage those expectations of what's going to happen.

And, um, I don't know how you manage heartbreak like that. I mean, for me, my mom always said, look, you know, don't get excited until We sign a contract. Well, when you're like lying in bed at 11 o'clock at night and you're nine years old praying to God that you could get it, I mean, you don't understand about, you know, contracts and all of that.

And you just, it's just, it's really hard. You have to have a really, a really thick disposition, a really, a really strong sense of character to be able to endure it. But boy, seeing your kid on stage on Broadway, I mean, the joy, uh, you know, and then for the other kids, they're jealous. There's like all these highs and lows.

Zibby: I think it's, it's just neat to be able to give kids the experience of being either in a play, on a field, like working as part of a team like that is a really great thing to produce something together. I think that's, um, in whatever format, I think it's a really great developmental thing to do. 

Jen: Yeah, I mean, I, now I'm all about kids running, right?

So I raise money for Team for Kids and it's getting kids to run and be out there. And it's funny because I was athletic, but then I chose to quit sports to play to, to, to, you know, to, to do the acting. And so I look back now and I'm like, well, what if I'd stayed in sports and not done this acting thing?

Maybe I'd be, you know, in a different, It'd be in a different career. I'd be working for Peloton or something in New York bread runners. But you know, you just, I think, I think you're right. You want kids to have an organization and a plan and feel fulfilled. The problem with the acting is that it's so crazy, you know, that there isn't.

There's no trajectory. There's no one way to do it. So, you know, every time we try to go on vacation when I was a kid is when I'd have to come back to the city for a callback or something. And you know, you just get so excited. I mean, I think that's made me so, I was so sensitive to the whole thing and I would get so excited and start to spend the money, right?

If I booked a national network commercial, I would start to be like, okay, I just couldn't tolerate it in my twenties. I auditioned again. I write about it in the book and I just didn't have it in me and I just threw my headshots in a. in a garbage can one day and said, I'm, I'm done. I can't do this. I, you know, need some stability here.

Zibby: Yeah. 

Wow. 

Jen, so fascinating. I feel like I could talk to you all day, just listening to all the stories, the way you write about and talk about and all of it. So thank you for sharing and I hope our paths continue. 

Jen: Oh, yeah, no, I'm so thrilled and JenRuden.com, you know, there it is. It's out there. And I'm such a fan of the show.

You have gotten me, I really, I'm, I'm your perfect consumer. I listen to your podcast. I buy the book. 

Zibby: Thank you. 

Jen: All right. You know, and I try to buy, not from the library, I really try to buy everybody's books and it's just, I also love that, that it's, these are quick episodes because everyone's so, you know, busy and so they can take a half hour holding their laundry or going for a run and listening to Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books.

So thank you so much. 

Zibby: Oh, thank you. Well, thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. All right. Take care. Okay. Bye bye.