“I love writing. I love telling stories. I love making people feel like they’re not alone.” Zibby is joined by New York Times bestselling author, blogger, and very funny woman Jen Mann to talk about her latest book, Midlife Bites. Jen explains how this project grew out of a blog post about her midlife crisis that went viral, why there is now nothing in her life she is unwilling to write about, and what she has been reading lately (hint: it made Zibby blush). Zibby also reads some of her favorite passages and shares the ways in which Jen’s writing has helped her personally feel less alone.

Transcript:

Zibby Owens: Welcome, Jen. Thanks so much for coming on “Moms Don’t Have Time to Read Books” to discuss Midlife Bites: Anyone Else Falling Apart, Or Is It Just Me?

Jen Mann: Hey, Zibby. Thanks for having me.

Zibby: It’s my pleasure. As I was just saying, I feel like we’ve talked about this book a lot because we did this amazing, fun event together with Kristin van Ogtrop. I shouldn’t call it amazing, I guess, because I hosted it, but I had fun because you guys were amazing. I should just say it that way.

Jen: I’ll call it amazing. It was pretty freaking amazing.

Zibby: Okay, thank you. All right, well, one of us called it that. Also, as you know, when I first read this book — when did you send this to me? This was so long ago. Last summer or something?

Jen: Oh, my gosh, months. This summer, I would guess.

Zibby: Anyway, I read it and fell in love with you. I had already read your other books and had recommended one recently, People I Want to Punch in the Throat. I just couldn’t wait to read it. Then I read it. I saw so much of myself and my inner turmoil and anxiety and all this stuff in your book. I was like, oh, my gosh. Then you were nice enough to send me a BFF necklace when I told you we would be BFFs.

Jen: I did. You did. I’ll tell you. I sent it to you. Of course, I found you on social media like I think everybody else does. I went down your rabbit hole. I was like, oh, I need this woman to read my book because I think she’ll like it. I sent it to you with a wing and a prayer because I’m like, she only releases podcasts every day, she must get inundated with books. Hopefully, somehow, my book will rise to the top. Then when you sent me an email back after you read it about how — you were one of the first people — I’m hearing more of this now, but at the beginning, I was really worried that nobody would get what I was trying to do. When you wrote back to me and you were like, no, I get this, I feel this — I think the quote was, this is the book I didn’t know I needed to read. I was like, this is the book I didn’t know I needed to write. That’s why I was like, we have to be BFFs now. I’ll give you, I think I said anything but a kidney, but even that, I’m open. We can talk about it.

Zibby: When I’m in the hospital and all of a sudden it turns out I need a kidney, we’ll revisit it then.

Jen: Right, we’ll talk about it then.

Zibby: We’ll talk about it then, blood types and all that. I should dig up the email. Maybe I’ll try to find it.

Jen: It was a great email. It was amazing.

Zibby: Thanks. This is how I feel about all books. I wrote about this in my memoir coming up. I know exactly where I was. I was sitting at my kitchen table when I was reading this book and writing you that email. I remember how I felt, flooded by just this sense of not feeling alone. Not that I feel so alone, but that somebody had the stuff that was going on in my brain. A lot of preamble here. Why don’t you talk about the genesis of Midlife Bites and how you had sort of not — well, tell the story. Just go.

Jen: Just go. As you said before, I’ve written books called People I Want to Punch in the Throat. I have a whole series of those. I have a blog. I have this really large social media following. Yet I hit forty-seven a few years ago. I woke up, and I felt like my life was truly half over. I was just like, okay, seriously, you really are halfway done. What have you done? I had a good career, but I was kind of at a crossroads. I was like, I don’t know what I’m going to do next. When I started writing, my kids were very small. They were cute. The stories were funny. Now they’re teenagers. They only communicate through Venmo and TikToks with me. They’re not very nice. I’m looking at my husband. I was like, has he always chewed like that? What? Then what are we going to talk about when the kids are gone? What are we going to fight about when they’re gone? Am I going to still like him? Is he going to still like me? I just had this overwhelming — all this anxiety and stress hit me once. My husband was out of town. I called him. I was crying. I told him. He was just like, “Are we going to divorced?” I’m like, “I don’t know because I seriously want to run away right now. I don’t know what’s happening.” He suggested that I write about it. I’d had this blog for years. I’d kind of let it go dormant.

He was like, “The blog is still there. Your people are still there. Go work this out with them because I guarantee you you’re not the only person feeling like this.” He’s like, “This is a midlife crisis.” I’m like, “I don’t have time to have a midlife crisis.” He’s just like, “Well, I’m sorry, you’re having one.” I was like, “You guys get sports cars. What am I getting? I’m just getting more anxiety.” I wrote the blog post called “Is anyone else falling apart, or is it just me?” The blog post really hit a nerve with lots of people. Then my editor at Ballantine, Pamela Cannon, reached out within probably an hour or two and was like, “What are you doing? Stop crying. Write this book. This is the book.” I started writing it. Then I finished it during lockdown, which was really terribly hard. I was really worried. It’s still funny. It’s very raw and personal, but it still is very funny. I was worried it wasn’t funny because it was really hard to be funny during when everybody was locked in. That was also reassuring, when I first started sending that to people and they were coming back like, oh, this is funny. I’m like, oh, thank god because I wasn’t sure anymore. It’s been a long time coming, this book. I’m very excited for it to finally come out so everyone can finally read it.

Zibby: I am equally as excited. I’m so glad that you had an agent who could see all of the good and know that a post had the potential to be a book and all of that. It’s really awesome.

Jen: She had some vision. She had a lot of vision for it. I was like, I don’t know how to write a book about this. She really worked hard with me and helped me formulate this book. It’s definitely more collaborative than I’ve ever done. I’m kind of a solo person. I’m always interested when other writers are like, I send notes, I send chapters every day to my agents and my editor. I was like, um, I send them a finished book. I don’t check in. No news from me is good news. It was always bad when I was like, “Pamela, can we have a call? I’m lost.” She could help me find my way back.

Zibby: Some of the things that I loved, I’ll just read, if that’s okay, from a couple different passages that I thought were awesome. Some of this is just your inner monologue, so this might sound funny when I just read you what you are thinking. This was when you were dealing with your age. This is from the very beginning, but I’m going to go to the middle later. “Forty-seven already?” Wait, I’m going to start a later earlier. “I popped a handful of drugs plus my daily Aleve into my mouth and muttered, when the hell did this happen? I looked at my phone as if Google might have an answer for me. Instead, I saw my overstuffed calendar mocking me with a message in all caps announcing my forty-seventh birthday just a few days away. Forty-seven already? It hit me that I was in the middle of my life, probably even past the middle if I wanted to get real depressing, and when I took stock of all the things I’d accomplished and accumulated over those forty-seven years, I felt incredibly underwhelmed. Half my life was over in a blink, and what did I have to show for it? Is this all there is?” Then you go through this whole thing. You said, “My brain might be foggy, but it can still be –” Okay, cursing alert.

Jen: Shocker.

Zibby: I should say cursing alert for this whole episode. “But it can still be a real asshole. That day, my brain was a total asshole. It’s all downhill from here, Jen. What the fuck are you doing with your life? What have you accomplished? How will you retire? Have you seen your bank account? I know you made money. Where the hell did it go? Have you seen what your neighbor Elizabeth has done? She runs her own company. Plus, she founded a charity this year. Oh, and let’s not forget she still finds time for daily workouts to keep her body rocking, plus weekly date nights and mind-blowing sex with her smoking-hot husband. When was the last time you had anything mind-blowing that wasn’t a dessert? Do you even remember how to do sex, Jen?” Oh, my god, I could just keep going. You’re so funny. There is this perception, and I just posted about this this week, that everybody is somehow doing it all better. Everybody seems, on the outside, to have mastered everything. Really, have they? I don’t know.

Jen: I think that’s the thing. When I started this whole writing thing, that’s what I was railing against, was all the mothers that had it all mastered, that we all thought had it mastered. I was like, come on, you guys. I really kind of thought I’d gotten through that because I’m like, I don’t have that sort of anxiety. Then I got to middle-age. I started looking around. This is the thing. I’ve never been a vain person. All of a sudden, I was like, do I look as old as her? I look younger, right? My husband would be like, “What is wrong with you?” I’m like, “I don’t know. I don’t even know what’s happening.” I did want to know this, too. When we had little kids, I wanted to know what drugs everybody was on. I’m like, how are you getting so much done? What are you taking? They’re just like, coffee, exercise, and plenty of water. I’m like, um, lies, all lies.

Zibby: I don’t even drink water, so whatever. Then there’s more when you start railing on yourself with your body, which is also hilarious. This is after the sentence when you talk about how you started dying your hair blond and getting your lip waxed on a semi-regular basis. You said, “When midlife hit some years ago, I went from being someone who barely glanced in the mirror before leaving the house –” this is what you were just talking about — “to someone obsessed with every little detail of her face and body. My ‘laugh lines’ were no longer disappearing, but my eyebrows were. I know I had eyebrows when I went to bed one night, and when I woke up the next morning, they were gone. I lost the hair from my eyebrows, but then I had hair sprouting out of unusual spots, my ears, my chin, even my fucking nipples and my breasts. Oh, my god, my breasts. I don’t have any good qualities, but those breasts used to be my shining glory. Now they were no longer symmetrical. One was decidedly longer than the other. Yeah, I said longer, not bigger. They now both resemble two loaves of French bread racing toward my waist, one just a bit closer to winning than the other. It’s the one without the hairy nipple in case you were wondering. To still look halfway decent, they require bras that consist mostly of industrial-grade reinforced wiring covered by a swatch of fabric and that run in the ballpark of no less than a hundred bucks a piece. Quite an effort. Please don’t ask about my nether regions.” Oh, my god, you’re so funny.

Jen: It’s funny because everybody else has been asking me really super personal stuff, but nobody has talked about my boobs like that. I’ve forgotten that I did call them loaves of French bread, as I sit here looking at them. Yes, they are. You’re welcome, ladies. You’re better than me in that regard. Have no fear.

Zibby: It’s just so funny to hear somebody — to poke fun at the way that we all tear ourselves apart, the viciousness with which we analyze ourselves and our bodies, I think for many people, you would never say it out loud. You would never say it to somebody else, the things you think about yourself. Yet here you are. You’re just so funny. I love it.

Jen: Thank you. I tried to be.

Zibby: Sorry if I embarrassed you.

Jen: I try to be as honest as I can. We’re all aging. It’s all happening to us. Gravity is at work. I’m looking at microblading my eyebrows now because I’m running out of hair in my eyebrows. As you’re reading that, I’m looking at my face in the video. I’m like, yeah, I’m official a hundred percent blond now. I’ve gotten blonder and blonder and blonder over time to hide the gray. We have to make fun of it because otherwise, I’m just going to cry. We have to laugh. We all have to laugh about it.

Zibby: It’s true. I’m like, how blond am I going to go?

Jen: I’m impressed. You’re holding out. You’re doing well. Even now, I’ve got touch-ups.

Zibby: It’s the winter, so I feel like it’s particularly dark.

Jen: You’re a few years younger than me, though, too.

Zibby: Yeah, so who knows what’s going to happen to me?

Jen: Who knows, over the next five years, what you’ll do. This last time, I joked, I think I put it on Facebook, that I went in to get my hair done and I was like, okay, the gray really came through. I’m going to need to go blonder. Can we go blonder? Then I felt like I came out of there looking like Daenerys Targaryen from Game of Thrones. I was like, whew. All right, that’ll work, I guess. That’ll last me for a bit.

Zibby: I did talk to my husband at one point. I was like, “Maybe I’ll go gray. Maybe I’ll be one of those people with this perfect gray bob. How would I know if I don’t try?” How did those people know? How did they know, it’s just going to look amazing, I’m going to grow it out? What if that’s me? But it’s not.

Jen: See, and I did that. During the lockdown when we couldn’t get haircuts, I grew it out. I was totally embracing the gray. I was like, I’m going to have this fabulous steel-gray bob. It’ll stop traffic. People will be like, look at that silver hair. It was awful. It was so bad. I was like, oh, you guys, I can’t do it. I joined a group for gray-haired ladies where we could all learn how to care for our gray hair. I was shamed. I was like, I have to leave. I’m going to the stylist today to get it all dyed.

Zibby: How are you supposed to care for gray hair?

Jen: You need special shampoo. The hair, mine at least, and my mother’s too — my mother has beautiful silver hair, so I thought maybe I would have silver hair, but no. We look nothing alike in any regard including her silver hair. It’s wiry. It has more curl to it. You have to do smoothing stuff. I don’t know. That’s the other thing. I don’t think I had the time to do that.

Zibby: I feel like as we get to a certain age, I at least know how to deal with my own stuff. Having new stuff is like, no, no. I’m trying to ignore that everybody keeps giving me gifts of wrinkle cream for my eyes. I’m like, if one more person gives me wrinkle cream for my eyes — I’ve literally had like six people. I’m like, I get it. I know. I need to do something with my eyes. How do we adapt? After a point, you get used to what you have to manage. Then now there’s new stuff to manage.

Jen: I feel like some of this is — you don’t just give wrinkle cream to a woman unsolicited. It’s one thing if she’s like, hey, your eyes look great. What do you use? Fine. Then you can be like, I have this amazing stuff. It’s made from baby tigers. It’s a thousand dollars an ounce, but it got rid of three wrinkles, so you should use it. It’s one thing to just foist wrinkle cream on people and be like, hey, you look a little tired. Would you like to try some wrinkle cream? No, that is not okay. Don’t do that to people, please.

Zibby: My mother is one of the people. She’s probably given to me like twelve times or something ridiculous. Finally, she was like, “Zib, are you using the stuff for your eyes?” I was like, “Not yet. I just haven’t gotten around to even reading the instructions and figuring this out so I don’t burn my skin off,” something I could do because I’m not really focused on it when I’m tired and whatever. She’s like, “You know, that was pretty expensive. Could you just give that back to me now? I’ll use it.” I was like, “Okay.”

Jen: Moms are fun. They’re so honest and yet so honest.

Zibby: Then you also have this hilarious part about sex. I have to read from this too. I don’t know if you know I also cohost a sex podcast, which is crazy and off-brand for me. It was supposed to be “Moms Don’t Have Time to Have Sex,” but it’s turned into whatever. It’s called “SexTok with Zibby and Tracey.” I’ve now gotten enough practice that I can read this without totally blushing. That’s my preface for this.

Jen: I noticed you whispered about the breasts.

Zibby: I know. I still do. Still, it’s a bad habit.

Jen: Breasts.

Zibby: I know. I’m so bad.

Jen: All right, go for it. Let’s see if you can do it.

Zibby: You’re talking about your husband. You’re saying you’re rarely trying new things. You say, “We rarely try new things, and let me be clear again, this is all my fault. The hubs would literally do anything I asked. When every woman in America got all hot and bothered about Fifty Shades of Grey, he was like, ‘Do you want me to tie you up? Do you want me to tie you up? Should we both get tied up? Whatever you want to do, let’s do it.’ I was like, “Uh, no, thank you. Rope burns aren’t sexy.’ There are a few reasons for this. One, I’m not interested in learning new tricks. A few years ago, there was a viral video of a woman named Auntie Angel who taught ladies how to give a blow job with a grapefruit.” Sorry, I have to whisper. “Basically, you cut a hole in the center of the grapefruit –” I can’t even — “slide it onto his pecker, blindfold him, and then do your thing as usual, except you get an extra dose of vitamin C. The video is amazeballs, and I encourage every woman to watch it because Auntie Angel has a real gift. I watched that video and once I got over the slurping noises, all I could think was, what a mess. Who wants to go to all the work to give a blow job and have a sticky grapefruit juice bottle to clean up when you’re done?” Oh, my gosh. I’m just going to read one more paragraph. “Another time, I read an article in a men’s magazine I found in a doctor’s office waiting room that touted twenty positions that weren’t missionary. I figured I had a few minutes to kill and maybe I’d surprise the hubs with my newfound knowledge of what men really want in the sack. The first move on the list was called the 69 Bridge. The man lies on his back, and the woman does a backbend over him, and then you just perform the tried-and-true 69 move we all know. A mother-fucking backbend. Fuck that noise.” Oh, you’re so funny. You’re just so funny.

Jen: What’s crazy is when I was reading the audiobook for this book, I had forgotten about that part with the grapefruit. I’m just in the studio by myself with a male engineer. Then my female director is on Zoom. It was dead silence when I was done. He was like, “Okay, so we should maybe take a break.” I was like, “Yeah. Do you want the Google link to that? I can give it to you.” He was like, “I mean, I’m kind of curious.” I’m like, “Yeah, most people are.” I showed him on YouTube. I was like, “Here you go.” He’s like, “Cool. I’m going to lunch.” I’m like, “All right, bye.” Then the lady and I had a talk about it. I was like, oh, this is kind of awkward with other people here. It’s pretty amazing. I highly encourage, if you like grapefruit and blow jobs, I really recommend the video. It’s something special.

Zibby: We’ll have to find the intersection of that group. It’s like concentric circles or something.

Jen: I think I know where they live. I think I have their number.

Zibby: Jen, I know you started off blogging and just sharing your feelings and all of this. Now you’ve let the rest of us follow along with you as you’ve gone through life and vented and chuckled and given us the humor in so much. How do you feel about the writing part of it, how you’re able to take the funny and put it down? Is there a place you’re not willing to go? How do you feel about this whole thing and how it’s blown up over time?

Jen: I would say after this book, there is not a place that I’m not willing to go because I get real personal about my relationships and my friendships and my relationship with my husband and my relationship with myself. They’re not as funny as the parts you’ve read. I don’t hide behind a lot of jokes in some of that. At this point, I guess nothing’s off the table. I’ve always been somebody who tries to say what nobody else will say or what we’re all thinking but you can’t say, maybe. I don’t have a real job. I don’t have to worry about going in the next day and seeing somebody at work after writing what I write. It’s easier for me. I love writing. I love telling stories. I love entertaining people. I love making people feel like they’re not alone. I love just creating communities. I think you understand too. You are always creating communities. This is kind of a, I don’t want to say lonely because lonely’s not the word, but this is kind of a solo job. You can get lonely really quick if you don’t stay connected to people, but it’s hard to be connected to people when you are doing all the things that we do. It’s nice to have that online community too. I’ll always have that. I can’t imagine that I would ever stop writing, but maybe I’ll finally run out of content. I don’t know. We’ll see.

Zibby: No, you will not. When you were here, you mentioned how you had a million followers on social media. I went on Instagram and I was like, okay, I’ve got to find all these accounts. We were falling asleep. Kyle was like, “She said a million.” I was like, “Okay, I’m going to start adding it up. How many from Instagram? What are we up to? What if we add Twitter? What about these three different groups on Facebook?” You have to be a mathematician.

Jen: You do. They are spread out all over the place. They’re mostly on Facebook. I have three pages now on Facebook. Then I’ve got four or five groups that all are various. I’m kind of a stickler about my groups, what we can talk about in groups. I have reading groups. I have politics groups. Then I have the Midlife Bites groups. Instagram is not where my people are. I’m not an influencer of any kind. I’m getting a little bit better at TikTok. I discovered TikTok a few months ago. I’m trying to figure TikTok out. I would love to get a bunch of people on TikTok eventually. I think that’s my next — it makes more sense to be over there. It’s a good platform for storytellers. Insta’s a little bit harder for me. They’re not on Instagram or Twitter. Poor Twitter. Twitter’s just where I go and I yell at people.

Zibby: Do you follow a woman called Tinx, T-I-N-X?

Jen: No.

Zibby: She’s so funny. You should follow her. She does all these parodies like Rich Mom Starter Edition: Aspen Edition. She’s so funny and just makes fun of people, but she shares her whole life. We watched a whole bunch of her on TikTok the other day during this long drive. Then I went back to Instagram. I was like, well, compared to TikTok, now Instagram looks so boring. Normally, Instagram is my place. I really love it. It wasn’t as dynamic. I don’t get to know her as well when I’m on Instagram.

Jen: The thing that’s weird, too, is my things that do best on Instagram are when I put my TikTok videos on Instagram. I’m not that interesting. I don’t show my kids. I don’t show my house. I did get a dog finally, so I could show him. There’s just not a lot to show. How many selfies and pictures of your book covers can you put on Instagram and make it interesting? That’s why I don’t like it.

Zibby: I know. I feel like Instagram is a veil for me to just write essays that are really short.

Jen: Yeah, you do do that a lot. I don’t because I hate doing it on my phone. If I could do Instagram on a computer, maybe I would do better with it. I hate typing on my phone. I hate it. It’s too hard for me. I don’t know, my brain doesn’t work that way.

Zibby: I prefer a computer, but who has time?

Jen: I know. Exactly. Hmm, if only there was a brand for that.

Zibby: When you’re not creating content, what type of content do you consume?

Jen: Obviously, I read a lot. I read a lot of fiction. I try, really, not to read in my genre because I feel like the thing about humor is that we all have the same stories, it’s just our voices that make us different, kind of. I find myself either, not really comparing myself, but I’ll feel like, oh, man, she told that so much funnier, or I maybe will adopt their voice, which is not good. I don’t really read much in my own genre, but I read a lot of fiction. Right now, I blame TikTok, I’m going down a sexy rabbit hole. I never read erotica or anything like that, but I’m reading that Barbarian one that everybody was talking about. Do you know what I’m talking about, the blue — oh, Zibby, don’t pretend like you don’t know.

Zibby: I don’t know. I swear. I don’t know.

Jen: Ruby Dixon, you need to have her on your podcast because she broke TikTok with this book called Ice Planet Barbarians. He’s a blue alien who’s really good at sex. Don’t give me that face. Read the book, and you’ll understand. I was the same way. I was like, what is happening right now? Why is the world losing their mind over a blue alien with a ribbed penis? What? She’s a genius. She was trending on TikTok, and so she lowered the price of her book to a $1.99 or something like that. You can’t say no to two bucks. I was like, boom, bought. I do that a lot. I read a lot of what is popular. At the end of the day, publishing is a business. I think you definitely understand this too. I’m always watching, what is trending? Why? How? What are we doing to capitalize on that? I don’t want to repeat that, but what can I do to understand how that worked? Why did that happen? Maybe, how can I put that into my business? Even when I’m reading for pleasure, I’m kind of reading for work, which is terrible.

Zibby: No, it’s not terrible. What advice would you have for aspiring authors?

Jen: My advice for aspiring authors is to just start writing. So many of us have had so many different paths to publishing. There’s so many different avenues out there now. I just bought my daughter a subscription — she’s fifteen. She asked me to buy her a subscription to Wattpad. She’s reading all these books mostly written by young — at least, what she’s reading is written by young female writers. They’re taking feedback. They have followers. They’re taking feedback from their community about where the book should go next and what they should do. I have heard of at least one or two huge success stories that have come out of Wattpad where agents or editors are looking through there for talent. There’s microblogging that you could do on Instagram if you wanted to do that. Of course, self-publishing is always around. I have a foot in self-publishing as well as traditional publishing. Blogging, that was what I needed to do for a while. I know lots of people who started at the same time as me, and right out the gate, they self-published. For me, I wasn’t there yet. I didn’t have that confidence yet. For me, blogging was better. I could build up my confidence and build up my audience and figure out what I was going to do. I can’t tell you how long I talked about writing and I didn’t do it. I want to go back now and smack that girl and be like, just start. Don’t throw away anything. That’s the other thing. I’ve been writing since I was five years old. There’s notebooks somewhere, probably in a trash heap. There’s notebooks of things I wrote, stories I wrote. As a humorist, those are gold. Oh, my gosh, I could’ve made so much fun of that shit. Also, though, you find old things. Especially with the blog, I think I have six hundred blog posts published, but I have another six hundred drafts because it wasn’t flowing. It wasn’t working. I stop, but I don’t throw it away. I can’t tell you how many times, if I need an article for something or I need something real fast, I can go back through those drafts and be like, what was I trying to do here? Then I can fix that up and republish it. Don’t throw anything away. Nothing is trash.

Zibby: Love it. Amazing. Jen, so fun. Loved talking to you. I knew I would, but it even exceeds my expectations. Thank you. Thanks for coming to the salon in New York and everything. Thanks for doing. I’m just so excited for your book to be out in the world.

Jen: I just really appreciate how much you have championed me. Thank you so much for all that you’ve done for me. I don’t think you guys understand. I was coming to New York for something else. I asked Zibby if she could go to coffee. Zibby was like, I’ll do you one better. I will host a salon at my home and introduce you to thirty of closest friends. I was like, what? Okay. You are such a huge champion. It’s not just me. I watch your Instagram. I know it’s not just me. You’re doing this for all kinds of authors. We all are just so appreciative. Please go support all of Zibby’s writing too.

Zibby: Thank you. That’s very sweet. Awesome. All right, Jen, have a great day.

Jen: Thank you, Zibby.

Zibby: I’ll talk to you soon.

Jen: Bye.

Zibby: Buh-bye.

MIDLIFE BITES by Jen Mann

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