Zibby interviews award-winning Pakistani American author Hena Khan about DRAWING DEENA, a nuanced and quietly powerful middle-grade novel about a young artist determined to manage her anxiety, help her parents, and forge her own creative path. Hena delves into Deena's stresses, from her difficulty finding her artistic style to her parents’ arguments and financial concerns. She also shares talks about THE DOOR IS OPEN, the warm-hearted collection of interconnected stories she recently edited that celebrates the diversity of South Asian experiences in a local community center.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Hena. Thank you so much for coming back on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss Drawing Dina and you have a new anthology out and everything. Oh my gosh. So much to talk about. 

Hena: Thank you. Thank you for having me. 

Zibby: My pleasure. Okay. Drawing Dina. And by the way, I'd love, I actually asked my daughter to fill in cause it came with this card with a flower that you could, you know, draw and she's such an artist.

I was like, you have to do this before I get on the zoom. And of course she didn't. But anyway, I had the thought. I did tell her, however, not to keep talking, but she couldn't decide, like, something about a sweatshirt, and I was like, this is literally going on in the book that I am reading, the girl could not figure out what color toothpaste at the dentist, and you are doing the same exact thing, you have to read this book, so.

Hena: Thank you. 

Zibby: Okay, what is your, what is Drawing Dina about? 

Hena: Yeah, so about a young artist who is very indecisive, as you, as you mentioned, and is trying, she's very talented, she's trying to find her own style, but she's, she's really impressed with Van Gogh, as many of us are, and is imitating his style rather than finding her own.

And, you know, it's really about. Her realizing that she has undiagnosed anxiety, which is part of what leads to her indecisiveness. She's experiencing these symptoms that, uh, she doesn't understand. Like many kids, uh, things like stomach aches in the morning, not wanting to eat breakfast, feeling like she's going to throw up if she does eat breakfast, and that's causing her anxiety.

So it's really about her coming to terms with, with this as she's trying to grow her mother's business and, and dealing with small stresses in her life. Like. Going to the dentist and finding out she's cracked a tooth, like hearing her parents argue about money. So nothing catastrophic, because I think in kids lives it's often not, you know, one giant thing that causes them anxiety, but lots of small things.

So, really about, you know, a girl finding her artistic voice and, you know, how to use art to channel her feelings and discover herself, but also, you know, grow in these other ways. 

Zibby: Amazing. I love how, so her mom runs a boutique downstairs and one of the clients comes in and she can, she can see in her head what the woman is trying to say.

And she's like, let me just draw it. Like I can, I can do this. I love that. I do have to say though, that the mom was tough in this book. I mean, the mom does not make Dina feel good. I mean, I, there's one thing to have anxiety that just comes right? Like that you're predisposed to anxiety and you're, you, you will have these reactions everywhere.

But I feel like it's another thing. Also, to have someone in your life who is really contributing to some mental health issues. Right? Like she had to deal with something really challenging there. 

Hena: Yeah. Yeah. And actually, you know, it's interesting because I, I toned it down a lot when I was compared to what I imagined before I wrote the book.

I wanted it to be a very contentious relationship between mother and daughter. And as I was writing, I, I couldn't do it. I think it was the loyal daughter in me who felt guilty. I did, I did want her to be a source of stress for sure and, and, and also a chance for, uh, for Dina to sort of examine this, you know, often fraught relationship, but, but also to see the potential for change even in her mom and how sometimes we, we put people that we're closest to in these boxes, especially as kids, you know, like your parents are your parents and they are the way they are and they're never going to change.

Right. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Hena: But that's true, of course. And so mom is, you know, Dina's loves art, but she feels. you know, underappreciated for her talent by her mom. She thinks mom's very dismissive of it and wants her to focus on school and doing well. And, and she's, she is very concerned about financial stability and money and makes that known.

So I'm glad you picked up on it because I tried to be subtle where, you know, you know, it's like there she is complaining about dad again. And I, you know, she's not really saying it, but I know what she's thinking and what she means. And so she, you know, she feels this added, even something like getting a nightguard from the dentist.

She's reading about the expense of it and feeling guilty for something she has no control over, which of course is adding to her overall sense of, you know, doom. And, but also, also inspires her to try to make a difference and do something to turn things around at home. 

Zibby: Although now I feel bad because I did make some comment when I was paying the, the bill for the, like, orthodontia or whatever, I was like, oh my gosh, this is ridiculous.

You know, I didn't go on and on and I was kind of joking, but I was like, what the heck, you know? 

Hena: No, that is understandable. It's crazy. 

Zibby: But now I'm like, I shouldn't even have said that because I wonder if my kid would feel badly, you know, the way that Dina just so internalized that. And I think there are kids who are more sensitive and who sort of soak in all of that and maybe those.

I don't know. 

Hena: Well, I think it's also, like, the compounding of things that her mother had been saying, you know, over time. 

Zibby: Yeah, no, it's not just that one thing. Right. 

Hena: Yeah. 

Zibby: Good. Okay. Thank you for absolving me of that. 

Hena: I can imagine having the same reaction. 

Zibby: Right? It is. I mean, orthodontia. My gosh. Crazy. I know.

My one daughter, her teeth are, like, really, and she's like, but do you think I, I was like, you don't need it. This is a huge blessing. You know? I know. 

Hena: Same with my son. He has one tooth. Yeah. One tooth. It pops out slightly and it really bothers him. I'm like, You have beautiful teeth. You don't want to go through all that.

Zibby: Yeah. 

Hena: Forget the expense, just the pain and the hassle. 

Zibby: But I do think, on a more serious note, when kids have to contend with adult issues that they shouldn't really have to necessarily, like they should be able to kind of just be kids and not have to take on the stress of being a grown up or feel like feel like it's so stressful.

I mean, I think Dina's mom also is like, it's hard. Like you're so lucky you're a kid and you know, you don't have to deal with all this and make makes grown up life feel very depressing. Like even reading it, like, oh my gosh, I'm like, I feel so bad, but why is she putting this all in her kid? 

Hena: Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That whole idea that, and I think a lot of it was, you know, me trying to portray the way I think a lot of people I know think about mental health and kids, you know, especially when they hear about anxiety and What do they have to be anxious about? You know what? You're 13 or you know, you're yeah, everything's taken care of for you and you don't have any real worries.

Like, wait till you get to be an adult and you have to juggle this and this and this. And, and even if they're not the ones paying the bills or the ones, you know, going to work, they are obviously feeling the mood of the house and feeling absorbing all the stresses and hearing everything. So it can be super stressful for kids, even in a, what seems like a very stable and, you know, safe environment.

Of course, there's kids who face all sorts of things. You know, very real challenges that can contribute to anxiety. But in Dina's case, I wanted it to be more that there wasn't this, like I said before, like an overwhelming. 

Zibby: Yeah, true. Well for Dina, but I'm glad she found her thing. You know, I'm glad she found her thing and I love the entrepreneurial stuff behind it.

And you know, it was so, it's really neat. It was really fun. Where did you come up with this whole idea? 

Hena: I did. Oh, thank you. Well, I, I know I've actually visited a boutique, much like the one I described in someone's home in Falls Church, Virginia, which is where. 

Zibby: Oh, wow. 

Hena: And then I, I also know a young immigrant girl who is, who came here as a young child, but who is very artistic.

So sort of a, a blending of those things. And then also really thinking a lot about the things that are on my mind, like dealing with anxiety. The cracked tooth in the beginning of the book is. my experience. And I did ask my dentist, like, could this happen to a kid? He's like, Oh yeah. So, so I was thinking about the things that are causing me anxiety and other people in my family, some of the ways people have responded to that and that stigma that still exists around getting help for kids.

And then also on a bigger level, even like what it means for me to be an artist and put work out there and be subject to people's opinions on social media, for example, and, and I wanted Dina to be able to step into that world in a small way and see both the power of it, you know, when it comes to marketing, like I have to do.

So, you know, when you're putting your creative self out there, what it feels like to have strangers, you know, just sort of pile on sometimes with opinions that you can't even respond to, right? So all of that really was sort of the seeds, you know, towards building this family in this world that But really exploring the things I'm contemplating and wrestling with as an adult, which is one of the joys of getting to do this, is reexamining the world and really thinking about things that are on my mind through the eyes of a younger person.

Zibby: Yeah. And the younger person, though, has a little bit less control than we do, even though we might be feeling the same things. It's like we ultimately, even if we feel trapped. We are, you know, in charge of our lives versus kids, Deena's age, where they have to go to school and they have to do these things and they don't really get a say, which is anxiety producing.

I mean, I don't think I can deal with being a kid right now. I know. What are, what are your, aside from professional stresses for, you know, promoting books or whatever, which I'm guessing, but what do you feel most stressed about? 

Hena: Aging parents and, and in laws and just, you know, caregiving responsibilities.

And I feel like I, my kids definitely feel that when I'm, you know, freaking out about something or, you know, grandma just fell again and, you know, what's going on, that type of thing. So, um, that's probably my, my biggest concern. And then of course, you know, being a mother to older kids now and some of the.

Concerns around that, you know, once they started driving, oh my god, you know, apart from and that's all, you know, within the home type of stresses and of course just everything out there in the world to freak us out. 

Zibby: How old are your kids? 

Hena: Now they are 23 and 19. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. 

Hena: Just out of college and just starting college.

So very, two very different phases. And yeah, it just makes me think like, what? You know, and I remember hearing parents talk about their kids, you know, when I had small kids and saying, you know, how quickly you went and treasure every moment. And I was like, yeah, yeah. I haven't slept in a week, you know, and now I'm that person.

It was like, it goes by so fast. Cause I, I just can't believe it. 

Zibby: But don't you feel good that they are where they are too? I mean, I'm, because I have some older kids and some younger kids and yes, it goes so fast and I can't believe it, but I'm also like so happy to know them now, you know? 

Hena: Oh yeah. It's such a different feeling.

Like I, we were really, I was traveling with my older son and I remember I was at this jewelry store and he was sitting on a bench behind me and it was just so funny. We were referring to him as my bodyguard, but it really. Felt like that. I had a giant, you know, man child, you know, following me around. And it felt, it felt so nice.

And like, in a way, like, they're, they take care of us. Sort of like I'm doing a mom now. 

It's sweet to see that. And, and the relationship, yeah, definitely. It's like, it's like, evolved into this really, almost a friendship more than, more than when they were little. 

Zibby: Yeah. I don't think there's enough said about it.

I think there's so much airtime given to treasuring the young. 

Hena: Sure. 

Zibby: Right? Which I, I guess, but like, it's not always fun in the young. Like, I think a bigger percentage of my time with my kids now is really fun than it was when they were babies. And it was a lot of work. I mean, I still love them just as much.

I don't know. I think. 

Hena: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah. And it's true. And, and some of the, the things we wrestled with, like the angst and the guilt and the, by doing things right. I mean, now you're just, you can sit back and be like, okay, I think, I think this is human. 

Zibby: They pretty much turned out okay.

Phew. Okay, on to the next. No, I'm kidding. I mean, of course, it never ends. But wait, to switch gears entirely, tell me about the anthology that also just came out. 

Hena: Yeah, thank you. So it's called The Doors Open, and it is featuring 11, including me, South Asian voices. uh, South Asian American writers who I very much admire and whose work I've been following.

And the stories that we, we all wrote short stories that are interconnected. So you read one story and you meet characters from other stories as you continue. And all the stories build to a larger, like story connecting them all about this community center. So all the stories are set in a fictional community center in the town of Maple Grove, New Jersey.

And, and then there's a backstory to the community center itself. So it was really fun to, to put this together, to work with all these amazing writers and, you know, have everyone write a very different story, but then weave them together and play off of each other and then build to, you know, a larger story, because that way I felt like it feels more like a novel written in parts rather than just, you know, disjointed short stories.

Um, so yeah, it was for me really a goal to bring together really diverse, what we call Desi, which is South Asian voices and showcase some of the, You know, the very, the very different traditions and customs that we have, but then also this shared heritage and a lot of overlap culturally that we all enjoy, and a connection that we all have just from, from having all of that shared heritage and history, and the comfort that comes with that, and the instant community that is created from having that, which I think people don't always realize.

Zibby: Oh, that's amazing. What a clever idea. Very cool. 

Hena: Thank you. Thank you. 

Zibby: Did you assign who would do what? Like, did, did the, did the order matter when you were assigning who would? Take which character or how did how did you what was the assignment? 

Hena: Yeah so really was it was to come up with a story that you wanted to set in this fictional Community center and initially I had thought it would be some sort of rentable hall That would be used and then we decided collectively to make it a community center instead because you could rent rent that for You know, prayer service or a graduation party or even there might be other community events happening like a chess match or, you know, chess tournament.

So that's what we decided once we did everyone decide on the type of event that they might have connected to so we wouldn't overlap. And then we shared the names of our characters and maybe a few. personality traits so we get a sense of who they were if our characters were going to be male or female or you know whatever it was and then and then we all we all wrote our stories actually I didn't write mine and I waited until everyone was done and we we worked you know back and forth until we felt like each individual story was was ready and And then I decided how to order them and some of them by virtue of the conversations we've been having about the bigger story did touch on the bigger story.

So, um, I already knew where those would go. Um, others we just added a little bit, you know, to make weave it through. And then I wrote my story where I thought it would fit best and could sort of highlight things I wanted to highlight. So it was like fitting together, you know, retrofitting it into the order, but really, really fun.

And, and it came together really nicely, I think, and looks more smooth than I would have thought. Like I would have thought I would have had to go back and ask people to rewrite, you know, paragraphs and it, that wasn't needed. Cause I think everyone sort of had it in the back of their mind anyway, and sort of, you know, planted little seeds.

And so, yeah, it was just, it was a wonderful experience. And everyone's like, oh my gosh, anthology is going to be really difficult to edit. What did you think? And I just adored everything about the process. And I feel like we formed this little family among us for, after having done this. 

Zibby: I love that. I feel like it's less like an anthology.

It's more like you co wrote a book. 

Hena: Yeah. In the end. I mean, that's, that's really, I mean, I know there are, you know, novels written by multiple authors that are more You know, more interlinked and in this case, you know, they, it's just a thread that runs through and you know, the characters are, but yeah, it does have that feeling.

So if you, if you read it, it'll be hopefully as satisfying as reading a novel because you'll get that larger story arc as well. And then you'll get to know each of these characters on a deeper level too. 

Zibby: That's so neat. And yet you all get to like go out there and market it. It's great. What a great idea.

Hena: It's so fun to talk about it. Yeah. I mean, and I mean, honestly, I was so honored that they, they trusted me to do it, that they wanted to be on board. Everyone had so much enthusiasm for it and, and support for it that it's just, it's been lovely. Um, every, you know, really every part of it. 

Zibby: Amazing. Oh my gosh.

I love it. So awesome. And what do you have coming up? Not like this isn't enough, you know, grinding your teeth at night already, you know, adding more to your plate here. 

Hena: It's, it's been, it's a big publishing year for me. So five books this year, which. You know, I, I knew sounded big in my head, but once it started happening, it's like, whoa, this is, it's almost too fast because I don't have, I don't have the space.

I would love to really focus on each one before another one is coming out. So they're all very different. So I feel like they're appealing to different age groups and different markets. But in some cases, of course, you know, Kid Lit as a whole, but I had a picture book come out yesterday. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. 

Hena: Which is about the oldest library in the world, which is actually in Fez, Morocco.

And I haven't even posted about it yet. Speaking of social media, I'm like, I think it's yesterday. I was like, I need to celebrate this book. I love this book so much. I've been waiting for it for years. I've been picking up this book for like more than a decade. So, um,..

Zibby: Wait, tell me about that book. Now I'm like, so behind.

I thought we were talking about Drawing Dina. Anyway. 

Hena: So it's, it's written, it's a picture book told from the perspective of the library itself, and it was founded in the year 859 by a woman named Fatima al Fayri in Fez, Morocco, what is now Fez, Morocco, and she founded what went on to become the oldest university in the world.

But, and that's a story I had wanted to tell for many, many years, but I knew that in a picture book form, I was like, well, you know, and I was told by editors that, University is so far away from from the little kids experience, so I wasn't sure how to do that. And then I learned of the library that was attached to this university, which was the oldest continually operating library in the world, was undergoing this major restoration because it had fallen under disrepair.

And it was just beautiful. And there was this News article about this copper door with four locks on it and every lock had a different key and every key was given to a Different person. Oh my gosh. I'll had to be there to open this secret room in or vault I guess in the library and it held the most treasured books of the time and I was just like that is so Magical and I'm a library lover and you know grew up in the library And I was like, I must tell the story now and now I understand how to tell the story Make it relevant.

So the story, you know, also the idea that this was founded by a Muslim woman, you know, somebody we don't now in modern time in the West always consider, you know, or associate with higher learning and, and, and this wealth of knowledge and, and discovery and, you know, You know, scholarship that took place in the world for centuries at this place.

And then the restoration was done by another Moroccan woman who is an architect. And she led the team to, to, you know, refurbish it and, and save this, this, uh, You know, slowly dying entity, which is now, you know, a UNESCO site and just stunning space. So, yeah, really fun story to tell and one I thought the world needed to know.

Zibby: Oh my gosh. Well, now I have to go pick that up. 

You're just too fast for me. This is crazy. Okay, so you have The Children's Book and Drawing Dina and Doors Wide Open, the Doors, Doors Wide Open, right? 

Hena: Doors Open, yeah. Yeah, lots of doors in these titles. 

Zibby: Lots of these are, oh my goodness. And then what else?

What are the other two coming? 

Hena: So in, in the summer, I have my debut graphic novel coming out called We Are Big Time.

Zibby: Ooh. 

Hena: I'm so excited about it. It's, it was, uh, yeah, really different for me to, to write and work on, but I've been waiting and it's, it's been great. beautiful. I love how it turned out. The artist is incredible.

And it's about an all Muslim girls basketball team based on the true story of a team in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, that I actually had the pleasure of interviewing a few of the players from the actual team and the coach because they had this amazing turnaround season and got a lot of media attention since their uniform includes wearing the hijab.

A lot of it was around, you know, being this hijab wearing girls basketball team out, you know, in in the high school basketball circuit and, and the attention that brought. And so I got to talk with the girls about, you know, their specific experiences and sort of dug a little deeper than what I was reading about because they got national media attention and they had, you know, a bleacher report done on them.

And. And I think that was a lot for them to take, you know, on top of wanting to just play basketball and be great athletes and having a winning season, all of a sudden it's like, you represent Muslim women, you represent your faith. So I wanted to touch on that, but also just, you know, a story like one of the girls was telling me about how she had moved recently and how the team.

You know, helped her and the girl was talking about how hard she was on herself as a player and how she focused so much on her mistakes and beat herself up about them. Whereas her coach had to take her side and show her her stats and say, look at all the things you contribute, look at all these rebounds you've had.

And so, you know, pieces like that, I wove together into a fictional character named Aaliyah and, you know, but based on the true events of this amazing team. Wow. Okay, so that's four. Yes. And then the final book is called Like a Boss. It's book four of the Best Wishes series with Sarah Molnosky. Oh, I love Sarah.

Yeah. Yeah. She's amazing. Such a great writer. And I was so happy that she asked me to join her for her series. It's so cute and so fun. It's about a magic bracelet that travels from character to character. All right. And in our book, um, Maya Amir, who is a Pakistani American girl living in Washington DC area, gets the bracelet when she's having a particularly bad day, like all the girls, and it allows you to make one wish, and Maya wishes to be in charge, and is suddenly in charge of way more than she expects and, uh, in charge of everything and, you know, it's wrestling with all that.

So really, really fun to co author that. And we just laughed our way through the manuscript and every now, every time I read it, I say, I still laugh. Oh my gosh. I've read it so many times, like copy edits and layouts, and I'm like, this is so funny. So hopefully readers will get a big kick out of it. 

Zibby: Oh, yay.

Oh, I can't wait to read that. Sarah's a really good friend of mine, and she's the one who suggested I start this podcast, by the way. No way! Yeah. She's brilliant. Yeah. She's brilliant. Yeah. Amazing. That's so fun. Wow. Well, congratulations on all of the things you have coming up. You're so prolific and you know, I'm sure you would whip that whole, you know, boutique in the basement into shape yourself, you know, the ultimate entrepreneur.

It's true. So congrats. And yeah, I can't wait. I mean, just so exciting. All the stuff really. 

Hena: Well, you know how publishing is like some of it like wasn't meant to be all this, you know, things and all of a sudden I was like, Whoa! So it's been, it's been very fun, but also like, uh. Yeah, terrifying. Yeah. 

Zibby: And I hope, I hope the aging grandparents and the family are okay and that, you know, no more falls.

Hena: Thank you.

Zibby: It's very stressful. 

Hena: It is an interesting time. I, I, I grew up. you know, to immigrant parents. So I didn't see my own grandparents age. Um, they all lived in Pakistan and even, well, some had passed when I was very little or before I was born. So, um, so this, this whole experience is very new to me and I realized, like, part of it might be that I'm less prepared than, than other people who've, who've at least witnessed it.

Um, Part of life. 

Zibby: Doesn't make it easier though. 

All right. 

Hena: Well, thank you again. 

Zibby: Pleasure to chat with you. 

Hena: Oh my gosh. No, of course it was a pleasure and you're the best. I love this and thank you for having me. 

Zibby: My pleasure. 

Okay. Take care. Okay. Bye.