Totally Booked: LIVE! In this special episode of the podcast (in-person at the Whitby Hotel with a live audience!), happiness expert and New York Times bestselling author, Gretchen Rubin, joins Zibby on stage to discuss her new book, SECRETS OF ADULTHOOD: Simple Truths for Our Complex Lives. Gretchen shares the personal stories and hard-earned wisdom behind her original aphorisms—short, punchy truths that reflect the everyday dilemmas of adult life. From perfectionism and procrastination to clutter, desire, and decision-making, Zibby and Gretchen explore what it really means to grow wiser with age. Their energizing, idea-filled conversation will leave you rethinking your habits—and maybe even labeling your next email "Confidential."

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome back to Totally Booked Live. I am so excited to be here with Gretchen Rubin. Woo-hoo. 

Gretchen: I'm so happy to be here. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. We're gonna talk all about Secrets of Adulthood, but I'll just read a quick bio. So here has read something by Gretchen Rubin, like everybody. 

Gretchen: Oh, thank you. Gold Star. 

Zibby: Okay.

Gretchen Rubin is one of today's most influential observers of happiness and human nature. She's the author of many books, including the Blockbuster, New York Times Bestsellers, the Happiness Project, the Four Tendencies Better Than Before, and Life In Five Senses. Her books have sold more than 3.5 million copies worldwide in more than 30 languages.

That must feel good. 

Gretchen: It does. 

Zibby: Good. Yeah. 

Gretchen: Doesn't get old. 

Zibby: She hosts the top ranking award-winning podcast, happier with Gretchen Rubin, where she explores practical solutions for living a happier life raised in Kansas City. She lives in New York City with her family. Yay. Yeah. 

Gretchen: I'm so happy to be talking to everybody today.

Thank you for having, Hey, can I just point out, Zippy coordinated her outfit with the cover? Can I just say that is next level, right. I mean, gotta give good service to you. I know the attention to detail is remarkable. 

Zibby: Um, okay. Secrets of Adulthood, Simple Truths For Our Complex Lives. Explain the concept for the book.

Gretchen: Okay, so a couple different strands came together. First of all, I wanted to collect the secrets of adulthood that I had learned with time and experience, usually the hard way. Um, to give to my two daughters who were like going off into the world and, um, and so I wanted to save them some of the suffering or frustration that I felt with, like, passing along what I'd learned, but just as much I realized once I started keeping track of them, I wanted to keep them for myself because I have to keep learning the same lessons over and over.

Like working is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination or something that can be done at any time, is often done at no time. And I have to learn that over and over. As I was gathering these, I also wanted to push myself to really use the form of the aphorism. Now, I don't use the word aphorism on in the title or subtitle because nobody knows what an aphorism is, but essentially an aphorism is just a general observation about human nature that's attributed to a person.

So there's, there are proverbs. Like, you can't push a rope. That's folk wisdom. But with an aphorism, it's like, Oscar Wild said it, or Warren Buffet said it, or you know, Mont said it. Um, but it's a very, it's a very demanding form because it's very hard to write short, you know, like that letter where somebody said, sorry, I wrote you a long letter.

I didn't have time to write a short one. Um, and to like crystallize my thoughts in, in a very short way. So I, so both of I wanted to do both of those things and so. I started keeping this giant list of my aphorisms, and then from those, I picked out the ones that were Secrets of Adulthood. 

Zibby: And some of these are other people's thoughts and some are yours.

Gretchen: No, they're all mine. 

Zibby: They're all yours? 

Gretchen: They're These are all mine. Yeah. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. 

Gretchen: Yeah. 

Zibby: Okay. Wow. So that's why it's not a quote book. 

Gretchen: Right. Oh my gosh. I could do a quotation book. I have literally thousands of quotations. Like that's one of my favorite things to do is to collect quotations. Um, so I would love to do that one day.

But no, these are all from me. 

Zibby: Now, I feel like you're even wiser than I previously believed. 

Gretchen: Well, come on. But you know, you may not agree with all of them. And that's kind of the fun of the aphorism is because it's so short, it's, it's easier to think about. You can sort of, uh, uh, think, well, do I agree with this?

What are examples that I see of this in my own life? Or do I, or do I reject it? Do I, do I disagree or do I have my own twist? Like I was talking to somebody. One of the, one of the secrets of adulthood is, um, we care for many people we don't particularly care for. Um, and somebody, uh, who's a fellow writer said, well, we care about many people we don't particularly care about.

Meaning, like, people who write mean reviews on Amazon, we care about them even though we don't particularly care about them. So it's interesting how, or, or like, working as one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination. I meant that like, um, you know, as a writer, sometimes, like instead of actually writing, I'll do research.

You know, like, I need to research this. It's like three hours later now. Or a friend of mine is like, I'm rethinking my font. I'm like, let me jump in and say that's not work. Um, but, but he said no I think working is one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination, means that sometimes it's easier to keep working than to do the hard work of dealing with what's at home? And I thought, well, that's such a, that's, so sometimes the ambiguity that comes from being so brief actually like, like allows for more interpretation. Um, which I think is, is kind of intellectually stimulating. 

Zibby: They're all kind of a rohar test for what we're all going through. 

Gretchen: Yes. 

Zibby: It's like when you tell someone you're getting a divorce.

Gretchen: Yes. 

Zibby: And like half the people cry and you're like, well, now I know a little something about marriage. 

Gretchen: Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. Exactly. 

Zibby: Just kidding. Just kidding. If that was you. 

Gretchen: Yeah. 

Zibby: Um, uh, to your point on working, can I read a few of your instead? I'm working. Um, in addition to working as one of the most dangerous forms of procrastination, you said nothing is more exhausting than the task that's never started.

Gretchen: Oh, yeah. I suffer from that. 

Zibby: What can be done at any time is often done at no time. 

Gretchen: Yeah. 

Zibby: And this is one of my favorites. Perfectionism is driven not by high standards, but by anxiety. 

Gretchen: Yeah. 

Zibby: And then finally, last one, and we can talk about all these, one of the worst uses of time is to do something well, that need not be done at all.

Gretchen: Yes, yes. 

Zibby: Which is so good. Thank you. Think about this on so many levels. 

Gretchen: Well, um, it's funny because a lot of these aphorisms come out of something that happened to me or a conversation that I had, or, you know, like something that I read or a tv, you know, there's something that got me thinking about it. So there's, but, but part of the, a, the fun of an aphorism is kind of the drop mic quality where you just.

Sort of say it and don't, and don't elaborate. A few of these have, have elaborations. 'cause I couldn't resist. But the story about that, what got me thinking about that aphorism was, so my, if you listen to the Happier podcast, you know, my sister Elizabeth is very, very messy. She's totally, she's clutter blind, she's extremely messy.

And every once in a while she will graciously allow me to go over and help her clear her clutter. And she was, um, we were doing this and she had just giant stacks of unopened mail, which of course, like threw me into a panic. So we're going through her mail. And she's a, she's a TV writer, so she's a member of the Writer's Guild.

And one of the things that she had was she just had so many unopened statements from the Writer's Guild. And so she's looking at these and she's like, okay, this is my plan. I'm gonna open these up. I'll, I'll put, I'll get like a, I'll buy a three hole punch and some binders, and then I'll arrange them chronologically, and then they'll be like, really neatly on the shelves.

And I was like, okay, but you've never opened these. Do you need them? Do you ever use them? And she said, no, but I might use them. And I said, yeah, but could you just contact A WGA and say like, Hey, I need my records related to something. Or you know, some time period. And she's like, yeah, I'm sure I could. So it's like.

But she was like really getting ready to just spend hours in an organizational, you know, effort that she didn't need at all. Or people, like somebody was elaborately, alphabetizing, their book, their books, and like, not to be mean, but I'm like, this is not a person who's going back and looking for a novel that they read five years ago.

You know what I mean? It's, it's not that kind of person. I'm like, are you sure you need to be ke keeping these alphabetized? You can if you want, but you don't really need to. I have to alphabetize 'cause I'm always looking for things, but, but maybe you don't need to do that work. You know? It's always worth thinking about.

It's always worth thinking about. 

Zibby: And, and to your point earlier, you also have an, that says something like, if you haven't used something 

Gretchen: Yes. 

Zibby: In like five years. You're okay to give it away? 

Gretchen: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Or if you don't remember that you had it. 

Zibby: Oh yeah. If you don't remember that you had it. And I'm like, oh, I remember that sweater.

Gretchen: Yes. 

Zibby: Where is that?

Gretchen: Yes. Yeah. 

Zibby: Time to give it away. 

Gretchen: I remember once I was helping my, my, my husband clean out his closet and I like, I was like holding up two pairs of pants at a time and he would say like, yes, or give away, and I held up a pair of pants. He goes, I've never seen that pair of pants before in my life.

And I'm like. Well, I guess somebody broke in and put 'em in here because I didn't buy 'em. Um, and he is like, I honestly have no idea where this came from. It's like, well, you, well either you now have a perfect pair of pants or like, it's time to get rid of them because, um, yeah, if you don't know you have it, you're not using and.. 

Zibby: Shortening pants too.

Didn't you have something like if you have to shorten them, like you don't. 

Gretchen: Okay. Okay. So some people disagree with this. My, my, my secret of adulthood is if you don't like a pair of pants. Don't pay to get them hemmed. How many people agree with me? Right? Because somebody was like, no, a thousand percent you should get them hemmed because maybe they'll be fine and then you'll have a whole pair of pants.

I'm like, not in my experience, that never works. But anyway, so many people agree, but your mileage may differ. 

Zibby: Differ, but you have to hem like every pair of pants. And so it is hard to distinguish. 

Gretchen: Okay. That's right. That's right, that's right. That's right. 

Zibby: But yeah, you can't throw good money after bad.

Gretchen: Right? It's, it's, yeah, it's metaphorically true as well as literally true. 

Zibby: Um. Talk about anxiety, perfectionism, and anxiety. 

Gretchen: Well, it's interesting because, because I write so much about happiness, people would often talk to me about perfectionism and, um, and the, what's what's confusing and and misleading about perfectionism is that people think like, well, I.

If, if I'm trying to deal with my perfectionism, I have to lower my standards, but I don't wanna lower my standards. But the fact is that doesn't even really help, um, because what perfectionism is is the anxiety. It's like the anxiety of being judged. It's the anxiety of being done. It's the anxiety of like, did I make the right decisions or not?

Or have I not made a decision yet at all? Because I am so worried about it. And so when you're struggling with perfectionism, you should really look to your anxiety and dealing with the anxiety, not dealing with the standards. It's kind of a misplaced, well, another aphorism is the place that hurts isn't always the place that's injured.

And I think perfectionism is something like that. It's misdirected attention. It's like it's not the standards, it's the, it's the worry. 

Zibby: I still don't totally get how that works in my body when like you fix something in your neck and all of a sudden like your leg is better. 

Gretchen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're like, it's your hip flexor.

Zibby: I know. I'm like, really? It was my hip flexor. 

Gretchen: It's always the hip flexor. 

Zibby: It's always the hip flexor. 

Gretchen: Yeah. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Gretchen: Or your rotator cuff. 

Zibby: More the hip flexor for me. But anyway. Um, okay. Here are a few more. These are on desire. Nothing attracts people's interest, like the attempt to keep something hidden.

Everyone wants to open the box labeled confidential. 

Gretchen: Yeah. Well, and then I had a whole anecdote, which then I ended up taking out about the Streisand effect. Does anybody know about the Streisand Effect? Okay, so I'm gonna get the details wrong, but essentially. The stray sand effect is the psychological phenomenon that if you, if you try to hide something, people, you'll attract people's attention.

So, Barbara Streisand, um, the, the California Coast Guard had taken a lot of pictures to try to, um, capture the, like where the land was because of erosion and, you know, whatever. So there were all of these, uh, just these pictures of the lake, uh, of, of oceanfront property. And so Barbara Streisand's lawyers tried to get them to take down the pictures of her house.

Now, before they had started this action, like six people had looked at these images, like three of which were her own lawyers. And nobody, nobody was paying any attention to them the minute they did this. Of course there was millions and like, you know, TMZ and everybody's writing about it because it's like, what is she trying to hide?

Um, so that's the, so it is, but it's this, it, it. It's just the minute. If, would you, if you're, if you're, if you remember like, um, like parental warnings, like, uh, on TV or you know, rated R it just makes you feel, wanna watch more. 

Zibby: Well, I have to say, I read this and then later I was writing an email and I was like, Ooh.

And then I changed. Delete, delete, delete on my subject. And I wrote confidential. 

Gretchen: Oh, that is a good one. 

Zibby: Same. 

Gretchen: That's a good one.

Zibby: It was all you. 

Gretchen: Yes. I can do that to trick my husband. 

Zibby: He also said nothing makes you feel like an expert more than a microphone. And here we are. 

Gretchen: And here we are. Yeah. No, it does.

It really, it really works. It really does work. 

Zibby: Why did you not call this book? Secrets of Life. 

Gretchen: Because, so I had this giant trove of aphorisms and I, I decided that I wanted to choose the ones where I thought they would. Be like an answer to a perplexity that you face in adulthood. Um, and life just felt more kind of general and more observational, but adulthood felt more like, 'cause I don't know, I mean like, I never feel like an adult a lot.

And a lot of other adults say they don't really feel like adults either. So it's kind of like this idea of a, as being the ones who are taking control and making decisions and doing things, whereas life feels more. I know more general. It's funny though, because some of the, I have in my, I have other aphorisms that I would call mere observations.

Like a dog doesn't gaze at a waterfall, which is interesting, but it's a mere observation. It's not a secret of adulthood. 

Zibby: Can they not see that far? 

Gretchen: No. No. It's just like, because we look at a waterfall because we're like, look at the evanescence of beauty, or like, what is the meaning of life? And a dog is like, they're not looking at, you know, they don't gaze at the moon or whatever, you know?

Zibby: I don't know. I have a soulful dog, but it's okay. 

Gretchen: I know just your but to, but, but yeah. Well, okay. Okay. You can disagree. Um, and then, then I have my dark aphorisms, which are like bleak observations that I thought, oh, nobody wants to read these. So, yeah. 

Zibby: So that'll be volume two. 

Gretchen: That'll be Gretchen Rubin after Dark 

Zibby: Secrets or Death.

Gretchen: Yeah. It's more that they're judgy. Than that, they're about death. 

Zibby: Oh, okay. 

Gretchen: It, the aphorism is a very judgy form. Like you really have to fight against just the judginess of it. Um, and yeah, and, and my dark aphorisms are, some of them are kind of judgy. I. If I do say, you know, 

Zibby: so I never thought of them as aphorisms, but I have a few like sayings.

Gretchen: Okay, yeah, no, that's it. 

Zibby: Which is kind of interest. 

Gretchen: And there's room at the back for people to write their own, because a lot of times people don't realize they have them until they start reading them and they're like, oh, I have one. Okay, what are yours? I love the,

Zibby: I turn them into greeting cards actually.

Oh, that's C, which Felix do little. You can buy them. But anyway, one is always go to parties in the rain. Because those are always the best parties and nobody ever wants to go. 

Gretchen: That's a great, 

Zibby: and then that's literally every time training. I'm like, oh no, I have my saying. I'm gonna go. So it also forces me to go,.. 

Gretchen: That's true.

That's literally true and metaphorically true. 

Zibby: Yep. 

Gretchen: And then, oh, I like that. 

Zibby: Um, also never turned down a glass of champagne. 

Gretchen: Okay. I have never turned down a cup of coffee. 

Zibby: Oh, okay. 

Gretchen: Yeah. 

Zibby: Okay. Well that says something about both of us guess. 

Gretchen: That's good. That's good. That's good. That's good. I like that. So, yeah, it's.

Fine. And it's, it's very creatively satisfying to write them down. 

Zibby: Those are my only two. 

Gretchen: No, that's, I bet you'll have more. I bet you I, no, 

Zibby: I don't think so. 

Gretchen: You don't have any related to reading. 

Zibby: Um, 

Gretchen: I'm like, always be willing to put down a book halfway. 

Zibby: Well, this is more a quote because my therapist once said, well, my old therapist and I had time for therapy, said, uh, you'll never be with a good book.

You'll never be lonely. 

Gretchen: Oh, yeah. 

Zibby: And that's probably not her either. It's probably like someone really famous,.. 

Gretchen: Like a folk wisdom. 

Zibby: Yeah. Yeah. But I paid her for that advice. 

Gretchen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Well, clearly, yeah. Yes, yes. You were, you're running with it. 

Zibby: Um. Okay. Millions of books sold. You used to be a lawyer.

You made this pivot. You talk about this in the book as well. What does this feel like now? How do you keep it going and to everyone else who's just trying to sell like 300 books, how do you do it? What is the Secret Secrets of Writing Hood? 

Gretchen: See, um, I have one piece of advice that I give to everybody who's trying to write, and that is to have something to say.

Because if you have something to say, it's much easier, and this sounds kind of almost silly, but very often if you're stuck in writing, it's because you're really just trying to write words, you know? And, and then it, it's very, it comes very hard. It's very cliche. It's, it's awful. But when you really have something to communicate, even if your writing is bad, like you have this feeling of satisfaction of like communicating. Um, I think it was somebody like, uh. John Cheever or somebody said that it was like, it's the pleasure of having news. Like do you have news? And I think that's, and then and then, and then you have to really know yourself about how to set yourself. This is my whole book better than Before, which is like how to stick to a habit, because I could tell you how I stick to habit, which is like to write every single day.

Um, I did write from like five 30 to 9:00 AM at my most difficult writing 'cause I'm such a morning person, but now I have a new puppy and so like, she's kind of messed that up. Um, but worth it. Um, but like I know that's when I do my best writing, so I always would keep, keep that for writing, for doing original writing, which is the hardest kind of work that I do.

But like for many people, keeping a schedule is very useful. Some people, it's like actually counterproductive and you should not try to keep a schedule if you find yourself resisting a schedule. Don't try to give yourself a schedule. Some people desperately, they absolutely have to have accountability, um, if they're gonna stick to it.

So they need a deadline, they need an accountability partner or writing group or a deadline, or you know, an agent who's asking them for stuff or a friend who's asking them for stuff. Um, that's my four tendencies framework. So you could take the quiz on my site and find out. Which of these applies to you?

And it will tell you kind of like how to, how to use it. Um, 

Zibby: I last talked to Gretchen about the four tendencies and took the quiz. Then I had everyone in my family take the quiz and I have four kids and they all have a different tendency. 

Gretchen: Yeah. 

Zibby: Which all require, that's different communication, different ways to explain everything.

I'm like, oh, well this explains a lot. 

Gretchen: Right, right, right. It sounds like a lot, but it's actually easier because it is like, yeah, because then you're like, oh, now I understand. Like why this one won't do, won't. Exactly. It doesn't behave like that one. 

Zibby: Yeah. I'm like, oh, it's okay. It's just,.. 

Gretchen: Yeah. 

Zibby: Gretchen Rubin's rebel coming, coming up to a four.

Gretchen: Exactly. 

Zibby: All these frameworks you've helped. 

Gretchen: I love A Four Life. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Gretchen: They say there are two kinds of people in the world, the kind of people who divide the world into two kinds of people and those who don't, and I'm the kind. I'm definitely the kind who does. I love a, I love a, are you this? Are you that?

Zibby: Oh, I should come up on the fly with like 20 of them for you. 

Gretchen: Yeah. Yeah. 

Zibby: Um, I can't though. 

Gretchen: Okay. 

Zibby: Um, okay. Are you a fiction or nonfiction reader? 

Gretchen: Both. I grew up totally nonfiction, but now I do read nonfiction. 

Zibby: Um, are you in edit heavily? Your podcast? Okay. I can't do it this way. Okay. Um, okay. Talking about your podcast for a little bit, because you've had that for 10 years.

Gretchen: 10 years. 

Zibby: 10 years. Oh my gosh. That's amazing. 

Gretchen: Um, and we've never missed a week. We're so vain about that. 

Zibby: What, what, how do you do a week when you're going through something really hard? 

Gretchen: We, we'll, we know that it's coming and usually we do it week to week, but we will sometimes like go two weeks in advance just to have one in the can.

Yeah. 

Zibby: And what is it about the podcast that brings you joy or that. 

Gretchen: Keeps it that. Why you keep doing it? Oh my gosh. So many things. Well, I do it with my sister and like my sister and I had always had, had wanted to collaborate creatively for a really long time, so this is super satisfying that we found something.

Um, so it's just, it's, it's not everybody would wanna like be in business with their sister, but I'm very lucky that, uh, that we, that we, that we're doing that. Um, actually, you know, um, you're talking to Susie about Susie Welch's book? 

Zibby: Yes. 

Gretchen: Yeah. Okay. The values. So Susie Welch has this amazing, um, if you love a categorization values thing where you can, uh, go online and find out what your values are, um, and there are 15 values and my sister and I both took it. My sister and I have the very same top five values in different order, but that's gotta be pretty unusual, right? Of 15, that you have the same top five anyway, so we're very much alike. So that's a huge joy. And then I love talking about this stuff, so it's fun to talk about it in a.

Like, I can have an idea and immediately talk about it. Where's a book? It's so protracted, you know? And, and, and, and maybe I have an idea that doesn't fit into whatever book I'm writing right now. Um, so that's exciting. And you can, you get so much, um, response. So I feel like the world is my research assistant.

Like I'm writing my next book is gonna be about the empty nest. And, and people know that. And so like people will say, have you watched this TV show? Have you read this novel? What about this study? So it's great. And then, or we'll talk about an idea. And we'll see, you know, examples from people's lives or something we got wrong or, um, you know, taking an idea and putting, putting a twist on it.

So it's just, it's very creatively satisfying and fun. And, and Elizabeth and I are both writers and by, because she's a TV writer, and so we're so fiddly with our writing, it's fun to talk about ideas and like, not worry about like, well, is this a better verb or is that a better verb? You know, um, it's kind of fun to just whatever verb you say you can use.

Yeah. 

Zibby: Interesting. Um, being in the public eye, because you've become such an expert on so many things, an expert on happiness, if you can even achieve that. Right. An expert on just so many different things. Um, what does that feel like to you? Like when you're walking down the street or when you're at a conference or whatever, like, one of the values in the, in the grid is like valuing that in and of itself, like being a someone that gets recognized or can be respected.

Gretchen: Luminous. 

Zibby: Okay. 

Gretchen: Yeah. 

Zibby: We're talking about now somebody else's framework. 

Gretchen: Yeah, yeah. No, this is Susie Welch's. It's the Welch Bristol inventory called Values Bridge. Yeah. 

Zibby: Obviously I love a framework interviewing both of them. Um, but, uh, what is that like for you and does it help or hurt your work? Like just how is it, is it something you expected?

Is it something very important to you? 

Gretchen: I certainly didn't expect it. I really enjoy it. Like if I, if I, I like it when somebody, 'cause I go to the Metropolitan Museum every day, people kind of know that I might be lurking about. And so, uh, uh, people will often stop me there and I really, really like it. Um, so I enjoy that part of it.

It's funny, a lot of people seem to think that I would feel a lot of pressure to be happy all the time, which I, I really do not feel that pressure to be happy all the time. Um. Or to behave well all the time because of the new puppy. Like my, my husband and I were, were, because I am such a rule follower, I was like, you know, they said we have to do it this way or this way.

And you know, and, and um, my husband said to me very gently, you're being very critical and I don't like it. And I was like, okay, I appreciate you said this in a calm way. 'cause I'm getting kind of worked up anyway, so. 

Zibby: And can you give us a quick preview of what to know about the empty nest? 

Gretchen: Oh, interesting.

I know you're, you got a ways to go. You just prepare me. You got a ways to go. Um, no, I, I, I, I'm so, I'm so fascinated about, yeah. And anybody hit me up if you have any, any insights, observations, questions. Yeah. What I think is interesting about the empty nest is that for many people it is a forced reckoning in adulthood.

Many things that you've put off dealing with or have been kind of obscured by circumstance, family life, come and even, and, and in any case, you have to sort of figure out, okay, well what am I gonna do with like the rest of my life? 'cause especially since people are living longer and living healthier, like that's a huge chunk of time.

So how do you, how do you wanna set yourself up? And what I've found is that a lot of people. Even, even people who dread the empty nest do not really prepare for the empty nest. They don't think about it in advance. Um, some people do very wisely, but a lot of people don't. There's a lot of things you can do to prepare, like set yourself up for success.

And then I, my other big observation is that some people like are fine or like enjoy it and I'm interested, well, why are they enjoying it and other people are not. Like, what? How do you account for these different responses? And then also for the people who are like experiencing uneasiness, sadness, whatever.

Um. They, they're experiencing it in kind of a vague, general way. And I always think, identify the problem, like really understand what you're experiencing. And I'm realizing that it's, there's a lot more clarity. And what I hope the book will do is really have give people clarity. Like, this is what I'm experiencing, this is why I'm experiencing it, and therefore what would I do?

And here's, and it's, and it's good if you have like conflict, like with your sweetheart. Um, so I was talking to somebody and so the, with the husband and the wife and, um and they were both saying like they were going through a tough time. And so the husband said to me, I am just so jealous of my son. I mean, he is off having the time of his life.

Like I, I, you know, I'm happy for him, but I see him like taking all these great classes, playing all the sports, going to parties all the time, meeting all these new people. He is gonna take a semester abroad. It just sounds so funny. He doesn't have any responsibilities. He's just like doing what he wants and.

Interesting. Right? And his wife is like, I think we should get a puppy. And I was like, as, I mean, no, not for him for sure, because he's saying he's feeling I'm burdened by responsibility. I feel constrained by my routine. I envy like freedom, change, adventure, newness. It's like, okay. That's what he's seeking.

Now, if she's like, the house is too quiet, there's no energy, blah, blah, maybe the puppy is right for her. But it's like if you're a married couple, like you gotta think about both of you and, and trying to understand how somebody could be experiencing something a, a loss in a different way from you. And so then you can just be much more constructive in how you deal with it instead of, because a lot of times it's like.

Don't you miss them at all? You know, I, anyway, there's just a lot of misunderstandings because people don't understand how other people could be experiencing it. Also, it's really hilarious. Like one of, so I say there are 12, there are 12 changes people might experience, like change in identity, change in purpose, change in the, use the structure of time.

Things like that. But the funniest one is change in standards. People's standards change. Like somebody's like, okay, my husband and I, um, we like eat di we, we eat in bed and like each watch our iPads, like with our headphones in. I was like, okay. Um. A lot of people just like eating cheesy crackers for dinner.

They're like, I'm never cooking a meal again. But then other people are like, oh, it's no fun. It was no, a friend of mine said like, it was no fun to cook for five. This one's a vegetarian. This one hates onions. Like it's, it's like it was such a pain, and so it just makes simple things and try to get it done.

But now it's really fun for me to make complicated, you know, challenging things because it's just the two of us and it's like a small, you know, I don't have to make a lot. And, um, we can really suit ourselves. And so again, it's like people are experiencing different things because they're coming to it, um, with different expectations, different, different hopes, different desires.

So it's, it's all just very fascinating to sort through it. 

Zibby: And Leary wrote about that in her book, how she and her husband, Dennis Leary, once the kids left, would like walk around naked in the house all the time. 

Gretchen: Yes. 

Zibby: And like curse a bloody stream like nonstop. 

Gretchen: Yes. 

Zibby: Because they were never allowed to do that before.

Gretchen: Yes. Walking around naked is something that many, many people talk about. I don't know how many people actually do it. Uh, somebody said, my husband said he was gonna cook dinner naked, and I'm like, just nothing like bacon that splatters. You know what I mean? Like, I don't know that I want that, you know? Uh, but that was to him freedom.

Zibby: Funny, this notion that like. All these people are like, Ugh, if only my kids weren't here, I wouldn't wear clothes. I, I know. I don't know. I know, maybe I'm just like a different, I I know. I, I prefer clothes. 

Gretchen: No, I, I prefer clothes. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm clothes positive. But, um, but there's, but, um, but like a lot of people, my, my college roommate was saying that, um.

The great, the light of her life was, so she, her father lives with her and her husband. And so after dinner, no, during dinner, she and her father go and watch Brit Box. So they like, love a British mystery and her husband watches sports because they, she was like, the family dinner was so important, but with just the three of us, it just.

It didn't feel as important. And so we're doing this instead, and we just really, really love it. And it's like, if that works for you, and that's like the fun thing to do good. You know?

Zibby: Okay. What is the pub day for that book? Because I will be pre-ordering. 

Gretchen: No, I haven't. I haven't even sold it. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh.

Gretchen: You know, I always do this thing where I, I'll write a huge amount of it before I try to, I feel like I can't describe it until I written practically the whole thing. 

Zibby: Do you not go to the same publisher? 

Gretchen: Yeah, but they always wanna know what I'm gonna talk about. And then I'm like, I don't know. Like the only way I have ideas is like as I'm writing.

Um,.. 

Zibby: We're a publisher just saying. 

Gretchen: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Good. Good, good, good. Hold that thought. 

Zibby: Okay. Just throwing it out there. Um, okay. I'll just close with this one since you closed the book with almost closed the book with this one. But if we take the blame when we deserve it, people will give us responsibility.

Gretchen: Yes. 

Zibby: Take that for what you will. I looked at it random. Yeah. Okay. That was a bad one. I'll do another one. No, no. It's not that it's bad. I mean, okay. How about this one?

Gretchen: It's heavy. 

Zibby: Every strength contains its weakness. And weakness can bring strength. 

Gretchen: Yes. 

Zibby: That's a little more uplifting. 

Gretchen: Yes. 

Zibby: Yeah. Great. 

Gretchen: Well, thank you so much for this.

This is so fun. 

Zibby: Thank you, Gretchen. Thanks so much for coming us. 

Gretchen: Thank you everybody.