Evangeline Lilly, THE SQUICKERWONKERS, ACT 2: THE DEMISE OF LORNA THE LAZY
Actress Evangeline Lilly returns to talk about her latest addition to the Squickerwonkers series, The Demise of Lorna the Lazy. Evangeline tells Zibby about how although she has created a series that is a dark twist on Dr. Seuss’ books, she herself is not a fan of dark stories. The two also discuss their respective work ethics, why Evangeline has such difficulty writing a memoir despite having 35 years of journals, and what she believes is the most important impact storytelling can have on young children.
Transcript:
Zibby Owens: Welcome back, Evangeline. I’m so excited you’re here again on “Moms Don’t Have Time to Read Books” to discuss your latest Squickerwonkers edition, Lorna the Lazy, right?
Evangeline Lilly: Yes, The Demise of Lorna the Lazy.
Zibby: I couldn’t believe the ending. I knew the premise.
Evangeline: You should believe the ending if you’ve read The Demise of Selma the Spoiled. You should be very readily prepared for the end.
Zibby: I know. You know how logically you know what’s coming, but then when it happens, you’re like, no?
Evangeline: Do you know what? I think that is exactly how children feel when they make bad choices. They kind of know what’s coming, but when Mom and Dad actually come down on them and be like, you’re grounded, they’re like, what? How did you not know you were going to be grounded? You knew exactly what you were doing the whole time. You did it intentionally. You did it against all of our rules. You’re surprised at how this ended?
Zibby: It’s so true. It’s like you hold your breath and just wish, and then you have to go
Evangeline: Of course, it never happens that way.
Zibby: Very true. We were just chatting. You came on this podcast. We were here in person together two-plus years ago and had this very emotional, amazing podcast where I was crying. I think about it all the time still. We were talking about when we falter and then people are there to catch the balls and catch us as we’re falling, and the safety net. It was so great. It’s been so nice to keep in touch. That was your first book in this whole series. Maybe people haven’t listened to the whole series to know about The Squickerwonkers. Give a little backstory on your whole children’s book series and how that came to be and how here we are at number two.
Evangeline: It’s a very long saga, so I’ll try to keep it short. It started when I was fourteen years old. I was a late bloomer when it came to reading. At fourteen, I was really into Dr. Seuss. It’s a two-sided thing. One, I was a bit late to bloom into reading. Two, I think that there’s always a rediscovery of Seuss when you get older because as a kid, it’s just cute and funny. Then there’s some point in maturity where you reread a Seuss book and go, oh, my god, there are some of the most profound life lessons ever in these little stories. That was happening to me a bit at fourteen. I was inspired. I wanted to write my own stories like that. I wrote a story called The Squickerwonkers. I read it to my mom. My mom was like, “This is amazing. You should publish this.” I was like, “You are my mom. You think everything I do is amazing. I’m not going to publish this.” She kept pestering me about it just periodically over the years that passed after that. She would say, “Whatever happened to that little poem you wrote that was so good? You should really try and publish that.”
Cut to, I’m a full-blown adult. I have my first child. I’m filming The Hobbit. I’ve become an actress. My whole life has completely changed. I’m working with Peter Jackson at a place called the Wētā Workshop where all of the creative stuff happens for his movies. All of the armor is made. All the costumes are made. All of the special effects that are actually real and physical are made and then applied to the film. It’s such an inspiring place to be. Everyone who works there is encouraged to have their own little pet projects that they work on, kind of like Google, how they encourage you to be always doing something of your own on the side. I was like, I want to be doing something of my own on the side. I want to have my own little pet project. I brought about five of my stories. I’ve always written stories. I’ve always been writing since I was really, really, really young. I brought about five of my stories to the head of the workshop and said, “Do you know any illustrators who might be interested in partnering with me on any of these?” A young man by the name of Johnny Fraser-Allen really responded. He said, “If were to do any of these, I’d like to do The Squickerwonkers because I have a very strong visual idea for this book.” He brought the book to life visually.
It’s a story about ten vice-ridden marionette puppets who all cannot seem to get past their vices. There’s Lorna the Lazy. There’s Andy the Arrogant, Mama the Mean, Gillis the Glutinous. There’s a slew of them. Hopefully, across the ten characters, we touch on something that every child reading these books will be able to relate to in themselves. They go on these journeys that ultimately are cautionary tales for modern-day brats, a tradition that I think has been lost, to our detriment. I think it’s really healthy for kids to be told cautionary tales as well as redemptive stories. I think the pendulum has really shifted nowadays to mostly redemptive stories. There is redemption, ultimately, in The Squickerwonkers, but first, they have to eat their just desserts. The series is going to be twenty books eventually. It’s two series of ten books each, one book for each character. The first series is called The Demise series. In each book, each character comes to an unfortunate demise.
Zibby: Very dark. I love that you, at fourteen, were writing these incredibly dark fairy tales, this whole twist on life. I was sitting there writing about how I felt when I had gained ten pounds and writing it for Seventeen magazine. You’re just twisting Dr. Seuss in this — I would love our fourteen-year-old selves to meet.
Evangeline: Totally. My mom, to this day, she always says to me, “I don’t understand how my very soft, sweet-natured daughter writes such dark things.” She can’t make sense of it. I ask myself the same question because I actually don’t like to watch dark things. I don’t like to read dark things. Why do I write dark things?
Zibby: I cut school once. It was the most rebellious thing I ever did. I’m like, wow, this is amazing. I still went back for the school play that night.
Evangeline: Where does your darkness come out? How does that get out of you?
Zibby: I don’t know. I don’t have that same — mine is more like coming out an anxious mess.
Evangeline: Absolutely.
Zibby: With your perfectionism, it’s funny when you were saying that because I’m thinking even perfectionists are often open now about what lies just below the surface. Before, maybe pre-Instagram, pre-authenticity movement, essentially, you could just be like, I did all my homework. I got these good grades. I did this. I’m doing this and that and the other thing. I’m just going to keep going. I’ll keep all my stuff to myself. Now, at least for me and I know for you, okay, here I am laying on the floor a mess, I’m going to post this. I’m going to share this. I’m going to come forward. Tell me about what makes you do that and share and be open and if it’s really helped you.
Evangeline: I have to say that’s still something that I constantly grapple with. I’m a bit too old to be completely reinventing every single element of my being. I see the authenticity movement. I think it’s beautiful. I go, that’s been in me all along. I was always somebody who was writing memoirs and never publishing them. I would just write them and be like, I wouldn’t care if everyone in the world knew about all this stuff. This is fine for me because it feels like a point of connection. It feels like a point of compassion. It feels like a point of empathy. I never felt like I had to really hide the darkness. Then when I would look at what I actually manifested in my life and the things that I actually made public, I realized I kept a very tight lid on everything. I wasn’t ever publishing those memoir-type things. I was always very cagey in interviews. I got a reputation in the journalistic field and the magazines and whatnot as being somebody who wouldn’t tell you anything about herself or her private life. I didn’t want the world in that. It felt very sacred to me and like something where others didn’t belong. Then as I’ve watched the authenticity movement grow, I, of course, again, intellectually, was like, this is where I belong. This is who I am. This is what I want to do. I dipped my toes in the water a number of times. I continue to to this day. There is a certain point where I sort of reach a wall and I go, it doesn’t feel right. It doesn’t feel like this is for everyone because this is for people who I trust. You can’t trust everyone. I do think that there is a balance to be had. Forgive me for bringing it up, but I was watching some images of the Oscars red carpet.
Zibby: You’re allowed to bring up the Oscars. It’s okay.
Evangeline: People are probably sick of hearing about the Oscars and the Will Smith thing. I just found myself realizing that after so many years of feeling like the Oscars were too stuffy, too pent-up, too obsessed with the class and mystique of it all — I wanted to let my hair down and be a little bit more crazy and stylish and wild and cool, and just being frustrated for eighteen years of my career. Watching that happen now, I kind of understand the value of what was happening before a lot better.
Zibby: You are so not old. People are listening to this. They’re going to think you’re eighty-five years old. You’re like, I’m too for that. In my youth, I did this. You’re younger than I am. This is crazy.
Evangeline:
Zibby: I don’t know. I still call my dad. I’m like, “Do you think I should take this medicine?” I’m forty-five years old. Why am I calling my dad for his advice on what medicine to take for COVID? It’s ridiculous. I don’t know that there’s an age where you’re really truly a grown-up. I will say age has performed some indignities, particularly the reading glasses and all the things that I’m just like, oh, welcome to my forties. Thanks.
Evangeline: I’m there as well. I have reading glasses as well now, but I love them. I think they’re so cool. I love the juxtaposition that’s already organically arisen in this discussion between you and I. You recently wrote a children’s book also, the amazing Princess Charming. The juxtaposition between our two books could not be more stark.
Zibby: I know. It’s so funny. I’ll send you a copy after this.
Evangeline: I’ve read it, but I can’t wait to actually hold it in my hands.
Zibby: I will send it to you. I want a hardcopy of yours too.
Evangeline: I will send you one, for sure. You have this successful podcast career. You have this successful career as an author of these amazing anthologies. What made you decide you had to put your hat in the ring writing a children’s book?
Zibby: It didn’t even happen like that. As you know, I don’t know if you’ve been to one, but I have these author salons downstairs here at my house.
Evangeline: I haven’t been to one, but I am quite jealous. They sound awesome.
Zibby: Anytime you’re in town. I’ll just have one for you. We can have a big celebratory party. One of the authors who attended, Karen Dukess, said, “A friend of mine is going to Penguin Random House with this new imprint. Have you considered doing a children’s book? I could put you two in touch.” I was like, “Yes, thank you. Put me in touch. Yes, I’ve written many children’s books, but I’ve only tried to sell one. That was so many years ago.” I had lunch with this woman, Margaret Anastas. She showed me a picture of a girl. It ended up not being this girl. She said, “Here’s a drawing of a character, Princess Charming. What would you do for the story? Do you want to take a stab at it?” I was like, “Sure, I love assignments. This is great. Feels like school.” Two minutes little, I was like, “Okay, here’s what I would do with the whole story.” She literally walked into my kitchen, grabbed a notepad, and showed me to write a children’s book, how many pages. She broke it down with little lines. She’s like, “Now you have to go take your story, write it. Put it on each page.”
Then I did that an hour later. On the way to school pickup, I thought of the ending and called her. She’s like, “That’s great.” Then that was really it. I had one meeting with her in her office. I brought my laptop. We hammered away at it. She’s like, “I think you have enough to go on here. Why don’t you take that home?” I was like, “Let’s just finish it.” We just finished it right there in her office. Now I have a second one coming out also about Princess Charming. Then it became this book. It’s just crazy. The whole story is based on my older daughter who would try everything when she was younger but just couldn’t seem to find her thing. It seemed like everyone else around her could. I finally told her, “You know what? Your thing is that you never give up, seriously. You pursue it. You try everything. That is your thing.” That’s where the book came from.
Evangeline: Aw, that’s so sweet.
Zibby: That was very long-winded, but that’s how it came to be.
Evangeline: It wasn’t long-winded at all. I’m still stuck on the fact that you were like, yay, I love assignments.
Zibby: I do.
Evangeline: You and I could not be more opposite. I have been approached on multiple fronts by either a publisher or another business saying, “This is the book we want to write. Would you be interested in writing it?” As you know, writing is my first passion. It’s all I want to do with my time. It’s what I do for fun. It’s what I’ve done for fun my whole life. I’m like, ugh, it feels like an assignment. No. No, I don’t want to do that because, for me, it has to just pour out of me. There has to be inspiration. It has to come out of the depths of my person. I can’t be told, write this, and I’m like, okay. You’re like, ooh, an assignment.
Zibby: I know. I don’t know what that says about me.
Evangeline: I love it.
Zibby: You’re like, write an essay about an object that has meaning. I’m like, yes, great. I’ll have it to you in an hour.
Evangeline: I’ll tell you what it says about you. It says you’ll always be very successful at this, whereas I will always be beating my head against a wall. Essentially, that wall will just be a team of marketers being like, we can’t market this. Why won’t you just write the other thing we asked you to write? Why won’t you write your assignment?
Zibby: You alluded to writing something about workaholism and all of that. Are you writing that, or it’s just in your head? Tell me about that.
Evangeline: That’s actually interesting. That’s morphed. It keeps morphing. That one was going to be very memoir-esque. I’ve also alluded multiple times already in this conversation to those types of books that want to come out of me. The struggle I have — this is where, again, your way of working is always going to be so much more successful than mine. I find myself constantly trying to catch up or keep up with how much I change and evolve all the time. I’ll be writing something about — three years ago, two years ago, for about two years, I was deep in the trenches of facing my own workaholism. Facing that down was very involved. There were so many layers to that. There were physical layers where I was very, very sick. There were emotional layers where I was dealing with childhood trauma. Then there were mental layers where I was trying to overcome mental habits that just were really deeply entrenched. I wanted to write about it. I start writing raw material. Like I said, it pours of out of me. It just comes out. I puke on paper. It all just comes out. It’s raw. It’s really authentic. It’s really vulnerable.
Zibby: It sounds amazing, by the way.
Evangeline: Here’s the thing. It could be if I then took that material and then, the year after, really honed it into a book. What happens is, the year after, I move into a new period of growth and evolution. I’m like, oh, now what I’m dealing with is X, Y, and Z. That starts to come out of me. I just start writing that. I have thirty-five years of reams of raw material. I have a box full of journals starting from when I was eight years old, a huge box. I probably have fifty journals from the course of my life. I have a memoir that I wrote when I was twenty that my older sister kept for me. I have copious amounts of files on my computer. The amount of notes on my phone, just random — I never seem to find the discipline or the time to just sit down and turn that into something, which is what I’m trying to do this year. I’m going to channel some of your energy.
Zibby: Wait, stop. First of all, you should write this for Zibby Books. I started a publishing company. I don’t even know if I told you that.
Evangeline: You did it. Remember, I told you —
Zibby: — You told me not to do it.
Evangeline: Yes, don’t do that. I was like, you’ve got enough on your plate.
Zibby: I didn’t do it when I talked to you. You convinced me not to do it. There were a lot of good reasons with that whole situation. I decided I wasn’t ready. Then a year later, I went back to it. Now I have good partners and a great team. It’s really fun. It’s great. We have amazing books we’ve acquired. We’ve acquired sixteen books. We can talk about this later, but I feel like you should do it with us because you need somebody to help you with the sculpting of it. You’re making all this fabric, and we just need to turn it into a dress, right?
Evangeline: Yes, that is definitely what I need on all fronts of my life. I need a Zibby Owens who can put the stiches on the edges of things because my edges are all frayed.
Zibby: But your fabric is shimmering and beautiful and sparkly. People can’t get enough of it. It doesn’t matter what shape it’s in, really.
Evangeline: Teamwork. That’s where teamwork comes in, different strengths. I’m going to be really meta now. I’m going to bring this back to the teamwork of — I actually think this is really important. This is something I like to get on a soapbox about, the teamwork of molding and shaping little ones’ minds through story and how much they need stories like Princess Charming that are really showing them a world that is the hopeful world we want them to believe they can live in, they believe their parents can build for them, they believe that they can build for themselves. In order for a child to grow up and be aspirational about really making the world a better place, they have to have, at some point, imagined what a better place could look like. I think stories really help them with that. I’m a very strong lover and believer in aspirational and idealistic storytelling.
Then also, we need our children to have a safe outlet where they can open the door to their shadow side and where Mom and Dad might be able to sit down and be like, these are the ugly bits of me that I’m not really comfortable with. What about you? Are there any parts of you that you’re starting to feel like — especially around the ages of seven, eight when their individuality starts to blossom, there’s so much in that time of autonomy-building where they step out in this confident boldness of, look at me, I’m going to be me, which is exciting and wonderful, but there’s so many pitfalls on that road where they’re going to fall on their face. They’re going to fall on their face because they’ve been a total ninny. They’re just going to do things really badly. They’re going to make mistakes. To know what that means and how to learn from that, how to grow from that, how to apply that, how to talk about that, how to talk through that, those are things that are equally as important. For us to be able to walk in the Garden of Eden but get to know the snake, I feel like that is really important for kids.
Zibby: I love that. That’s amazing. I love that soapbox given that I have a seven and an eight-year-old behind this door, both in that very individuation stage. My daughter, the other day, was fighting me for something she wanted. I was saying no. She’s like, “I am an independent woman.” I was like, “You are eight. Stop it.”
Evangeline: My son is ten. He has been a fierce force of independence since birth, and so that stage was very painful. It was really difficult. There was a nonstop head against wall. When will this kid just listen to what we want him to do? It is an interesting, very challenging balance as a parent to be like, I really want to raise a child who holds onto that autonomy, who isn’t beat down into a certain shape and then held there and told, this is the only shape that’s acceptable. Be this. I want him to find his shape, but I also don’t want —
Zibby: — But let’s get to school on time.
Evangeline: Yeah. I don’t want his shape to have really sharp points and he just scrapes everyone else around him with his shape. There are concerns. We have to mold. We have to shape. We have to guide. We have to mentor. These things come into conflict with these desires. Our children are born into a conditional world, but they’re unconditional beings. Then we have to put these conditions on them. I hate it. I hate that part.
Zibby: It’s exhausting. It’s so exhausting, all of it. It really is.
Evangeline: So many times, I’m by myself being like, I don’t want to do this, actually. I’ve decided I don’t want to be a parent.
Zibby: I know. I’m like, what if we do have ice cream for breakfast? What will happen? I don’t know. In addition to your children’s book, what projects are you really excited about now? What are you acting in? What’s your whole thing? What’s coming up?
Evangeline: Sometimes I go straight to the imaginary things that I think I’m working on, so I’ll go to the actual things that I’m working on. Last year, I shot Quantumania for Marvel, which is the next Ant-Man and the Wasp installment. That should be coming out next in 2023. I still have to do reshoots for that. Then there will be a big press tour for that. There’s these never-ending commitments with Marvel, which is beautiful because you never have job security as an actor. When you do, you can actually relax between projects and follow your passions and just do really cool, interesting, artistic things, which is what I’ve been trying to do. Obviously, as we’re talking about, I’m in the midst of releasing The Demise of Lorna the Lazy, which is Act 2 of The Demise series for The Squickerwonkers. Next week, I’ll be recording. I’m doing a voiceover project for a really cool Israeli animated film that is the first and only of its kind where it’s actually not traditional animation. It’s classical paintings that have been filmed in a way to make it feel active, but they’re actually static images. It’s the story of the destruction of the second temple. It’s very intense subject matter. It’s a story that is really speaking to a lot of the political and socioeconomic and social issues we have today. The demise of the second temple in Israel, originally, that story that was told, the reason why it fell was because of civil infighting amongst the Israeli people. Therefore, it made it very easy for an outside force to come and just take it, which at that time was Rome. Certainly, Israel, of course, is dealing with so many factions within themselves. They’re fighting amongst themselves.
It was a film that was released already in Israel. The Israeli prime minister said, “I think everyone in my cabinet should watch this film. It should be mandatory watching for every university student in the country. This is really the most important film we could watch today.” It was so well-received. They’re going to make an English version. I’m going to be voicing the only female character, as usual. I don’t know what this is about, but there is some trend in me that, for some reason, every project, I’m the only woman. Nine times out of ten, anyway. I’ll be voicing a character for that, so that’s really exciting. That’s really cool. Then also, it looks like I might be doing some theater in London early next year. We’ll see. I won’t say the name or the director or anything because we’re still in the process of solidifying things, but it feels like it’s 99.9 percent sure that I will be doing that, which I’m very, very excited about because there is nothing this frayed-edged artist loves more than being in a room electric with other human beings. I don’t actually like acting for a camera. I like acting with having people in the room and feeling their energy and feeding off of their energy. It’ll be the first time I’ve done that professionally. I’m very, very excited about that.
Zibby: That is so cool.
Evangeline: It’s very cool. Then the imaginary stuff that I think I’m working on, I’m working on a bible for a TV show that I want to create, which would be a big world-building thing, much more in lines with the kinds of acting projects I’ve done in my career. There is a memoir. There is a story that I’m about to start working on maybe shaping with — I have this wonderful agent who I found who has said, “Let me help you put the edges on your fabric.”
Zibby: Oh, good. There you go. Perfect.
Evangeline: Hopefully, that’ll happen. We’ll see. It’s always a challenge. I’ve discovered a new habit. You might have done the same thing. I’m not sure. I’ve heard a lot of female authors who have done this. They’ve inspired me. In order to really get any decent writing done as a mother of two children and a working mother who has a day job outside of writing, I generally get up at three or four in the morning these days. I just write for two hours in the morning before the kids get up. Then I actually get writing done. I’ve heard that from other authors, which, in the end, was something I took to heart and was like, okay, maybe that’s what I need to do. Not the inspired stuff. That can pour out of me at any time. For that really disciplined, get it into a shape that I can sell, that’s going to take some serious concentration.
Zibby: There’s no hope when they’re all running around. You needed that quiet and peace. They go to school. Thank god. Every day they’re all in school, I’m like, wow. Literally as we’re talking, I’m quarantined in here because I have COVID. I’m like, this is actually really efficient. I’m sitting at my desk. I do this all day anyway.
Evangeline: Are you sleeping in there?
Zibby: No. My bedroom’s right across the way.
Evangeline: Oh, my gosh, you guys have a pretty amazing house for quarantining. Not too shabby.
Zibby: I literally said to Kyle, who also had COVID, I was literally like, “I would be okay staying in my apartment for the rest of my life as long as people kept coming in all the time and I was always with people and learning from them and reading and talking to people on Zoom. I could do it. I could live here forever.”
Evangeline: Totally. I think that’s the personality type that becomes a writer because I’m the same. When the lockdowns began in March of 2020, my whole family were like, “You’ve been preparing for this moment your whole life.” I am such a recluse that I was like, do you mean that my husband and kids have to stay home with me now? Woo-hoo! I just
Zibby: No, those are my books. Those are just my books.
Evangeline: How did you end up with the perfect amount of yellow books and orange books and green books and blue books and purple books? How does that happen?
Zibby: First of all, I have eight bazillion books. I get sent books now all the time. I do a podcast every single day of the year. If I just took all those — now I’ve been doing it for four years. I took all the books out of this whole room. As you know, it goes all the way around. I dumped them on the floor. I made piles. That’s how I figured out how many to put in there. Then all the overflow, I put everywhere else.
Evangeline: Got it. It’s my favorite room in your house. I want a library. I don’t have a library. I want a library.
Zibby: You go do that, then.
Evangeline: I should do that. I should turn my meditation room into a library.
Zibby: This is a form of meditation for me.
Evangeline: It is. My meditation room has all my books in it because I feel quite meditative when I’m surrounded by books. It helps. It’s really inspiring. Even just seeing spines of books that I know have guided me along my way or have inspired me or have touched me, it’s like they’re all in there with me. It’s really good.
Zibby: Totally. I know. I feel the same way, all these characters sort of dancing in the shelves. You just look, and it inspires. Amazing. Thank you for doing this. I am so excited. When is the official date that this book comes out? Does it have a date, or is it out?
Evangeline: It’s out.
Zibby: It’s out, oh, my gosh.
Evangeline: It came out on March 15th officially.
Zibby: So amazing. I’m excited for you.
Evangeline: You can get it at thesquickerwonkers.com. That is the exclusive place it’s being released. I have my own publishing house also, but we only publish The Squickerwonkers. Maybe eventually we’ll publish more, but that’s all we do right now. Thesquickerwonkers.com. On Instagram, @TheSquickerwonkers. If you want to know when the next book comes out — as I said, it’s a series of twenty, and we’re only on book three — then you can sign up to the SquickerClub at thesquickerwonkers.com. I send you emails when a new book is coming out. Without any obligation or money paid, you get free promotions. You get sales that other people don’t get. You get personalized books when other people just get a signed book. It’s a straight-up perk club. That’s it.
Zibby: I’m signing up so I don’t miss the next release accidentally. Awesome.
Evangeline: Good luck with Princess Charming. When does it come out?
Zibby: It came out Tuesday.
Evangeline: On Tuesday. Congratulations.
Zibby: Thank you.
Evangeline: Your daughter who you wrote it about, what does she think of it?
Zibby: She’s so proud. She is so excited.
Evangeline: How old is she now?
Zibby: She’s almost fifteen.
Evangeline: Wow. Is she still Princess Charming?
Zibby: She is.
Evangeline: Still the same.
Zibby: Still the same.
Evangeline: She’ll be like her mom. She’ll be very successful, then.
Zibby: We’ll see.
Evangeline: I think raw skill and raw talent is overrated. You have to have the discipline and the hard work to see it through.
Zibby: That’s true. Both is a plus.
Evangeline: It was so good to see you again, Zibby.
Zibby: It was so great to see you. Thank you for doing this.
Evangeline: You too. Bye.
Zibby: Bye.
