Zibby Books author alert! Zibby welcomes back bestselling Australian author Emma Grey to discuss PICTURES OF YOU, a stunning, urgent, profoundly affecting novel about a woman who wakes up in a hospital bed after an accident with the mind of her 16-year-old self… and must confront the life and choices she doesn’t recognize now, at 29. Emma and Zibby dive into the novel’s themes of toxic relationships and personal reinvention. Emma also touches on her love of photography, a healing tool for her grief and motif throughout this story.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Emma. Thank you so much for coming back on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books and for being a Zippy Books author, congratulations on Pictures of You. 

Emma: Oh, thank you, Zibby, and thank you for publishing it. 

Zibby: Of course. I am obsessed with this book. As you know, I read an early draft and then read the final draft in, like, ARC format, which I don't usually do, and could not put it down. I was, like, reading it as my son did, like, a play audition, and I just was, like, I'm sorry, I just have to go back to this, and then, like, walking the dog, and it's the best feeling when a book hooks you like that and it's yours. So it's even better. It's amazing. 

Emma: I love it when it almost becomes a, you know, you're accident prone, you're about to walk into things. And I just love that feeling when you get carried away with a book and you can't put it down and you're carrying it with you everywhere you go. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Emma: I'm glad that it had that impact.

Zibby: Yes. And how great that we're publishing it as well. So there we go. You know, for those listening, you're the author of the last love note, which was a Target book club pick, a book of the month club pick, just. You know, massive global hit. And now you followed it up with Pictures of You. Tell everybody what Pictures of You is about, but also any sort of pressure you feel with the imminent release of a book to follow up a big book, which is a wonderful situation to find yourself in.

Emma: Wonderful and terrifying. And I think you know exactly what I'm talking about because you're in the same situation with your own book. And, um, it is, there's All through publishing and promoting the Last Love Note, I have just been embraced by readers in a way that has just been so incredible and so beautiful, and I've received so many messages and people sharing their own stories because most of you, well, some of your listeners may know that the last Love Note was about very personal based story about grief and about the loss of a spouse, and so then I had a lot of people getting in touch with me and sharing their stories, which was just incredible.

But of course there was also a lot of comments along the way, along the lines of can't wait for your next book. And as you know, very much, I mean, it's almost chronicled in blank, that pressure of doing a second, a follow up book when there is expectation like that, that second book syndrome or sophomore book syndrome, it's, it's real.

It's this sense of expectation. You just really want to hope that you deliver something for the readers that is At least as good as the one that you've just done, if not better. And it's just, it's quite terrifying, but Pictures of You is a very different story from The Last Love Note. It's still a romantic story, but it's one that I guess where we talked about love and loss in The Last Love Note, this is really about love and control.

So it's about relationships gone wrong and toxic relationships. And I think I really have taken on board all of the conversations that I've had over the years since really since the 1980s when I was in high school, which probably dates me. But when I was in high school and you know, my friends and I would be sort of entering first love and there'd be talk about.

Possessive boyfriends or, you know, that kind of relationships that just didn't feel right, where friends started to sort of drift off and become less in your world, more in the world of this boy. And, and then that followed through right the way through every decade I've lived with women and relationships around me.

Friends, friends, friends. falling into marriages that were, you know, coercively controlling. And all of that sort of culminated with my daughter, Hannah, who you've met, who's 25 and she's doing a PhD in criminology and studying gendered violence against women. And so I've had her in my head and talking a lot around me about these kinds of topics.

And I think it all just came together in this book. And I think it's a really important topic for us to talk about in book clubs and, and, you know, online and in podcasts. But at the same time, like with the last love note, I wanted to package this up in a way that is accessible. And in this case to position this relationship that goes wrong beside a relationship that's beautiful and hopeful.

And hopefully that's what I've achieved.

Zibby: A hundred percent. Yes. You take us through one relationship, let's go to the toxic relationship first, because many women do find themselves in situations. And like Evie or Evie? How do you pronounce it? 

Emma: Evie. 

Zibby: Evie, okay. Evie. Find themselves in situations like Evie where they believe themselves to be the strong women like Evie does, right?

She has her whole life goal set out and she's very focused on what she wants out of life and all of this, and somehow it's like, still can derail even the strongest woman, right? Even someone who is resolved to, you know, do, conquer the world, right? Somehow men can get under, there can be these coercive things and you show us how it can happen slowly.

Tell me a little bit more about that and, and this like, almost like this free fall and how you almost don't realize it until you're out of it. 

Emma: I know. I really wanted to capture the really subtle things that happen that are easy to excuse for one reason or another as you're gradually getting more and more entrenched in that relationship.

And it's the stuff that your best friend might pick up and, and comment on, or your parents might comment on. And you find yourself. You know, becoming angry or defensive because I think a lot of the time you can feel what's happening, but you don't want to admit it and you don't know how to get yourself out of it.

And I think that's the key. And as you say, it's, it is strong women. It's intelligent women, it's women with PhDs and letters after their name and, and you know, it doesn't matter who you are or what your background is. This is happening and it's widespread. I, I have. Messages in my inbox from friends, even in our fifties now, where they're divorced, they've come through and they're in the dating scene now again, and it's happening again.

And so it's, it's something that I think if you haven't been through it, you at least will have supported someone else through it, a friend or a sister or a family member. I think we're all quite well versed on those kinds of toxic scenarios that develop and that are so insidious and that. That is the sort of the gaslighting, the sense that it's you, that you're making a mountain out of a molehill or that you're the one that's going crazy, which is all sort of just cleverly developed in you as you go along in that sort of relationship.

Zibby: It is hard to know when and how to escape and when and how to know if your emotions are like, if people just don't understand, because there is still, I was going to say in our culture, but it's really every culture, this behind closed doors approach to relationships. And, oh yeah, that's what my friend thinks, but they don't really know or, and then the man, as happens here, can be quick to dismiss everybody else, right?

So it's like this vicious circle. And I was really interested in Pictures of You, too, with Evie's relationship with Bri, her, her husband. best friend and how men can somehow get or these horrible relationships can get in the way and how what is the role what is your responsibility as a close friend to someone who sees this happening but it's not being listened to is it better to stand by or use your absence as a lever and then what if that doesn't work so talk about that a little bit like what is our role and i think a lot of people have seen relationships where they want to say something do you say something or don't say something or what do you do sometimes it's It's hopeless.

Emma: It is. It's very difficult. And I think part of the problem is that a lot of the time it's actually dangerous for the person, for the woman to leave the relationship. And so there's a genuine fear there that stops them from taking what might seem from the outside to be the logical step. You know, they, you're sort of thinking they must see what's going on here.

Why are they staying? And, um. It is because it's too dangerous sometimes to leave and to provoke the abuser. But I think with a best friend or any friend or relative that's close, it can be so frustrating sometimes to watch, to watch this happen. And the best friend in this situation is Novel, Brie really struggles with this as she goes through, even from, you know, when they were 16 all the way through their relationship and does drift away and come back.

And I think the other, the other big friend that she's got too is. is Drew and he's the same and he's there for her the whole way through as much as he can be until they're sort of forced completely away. And I think that's one of the techniques that some men do in this situation is that they, they love bomb the woman in the center of the relationship and then they isolate her from everyone around them.

And that is, you know, a pattern that, that a lot of women fall into that makes it just so difficult then for them to To fit, to feel like they can turn to anybody. 

Zibby: So I know we dove right into some of the darkest themes and the most difficult, but the book is much more than that. Right. And I didn't even ask the general plot line, but basically after an accident, Evie has woken up to be her essentially 16 year old self, right?

Her memory is gone. She 16 or 18, 16 year old self, right? Yeah, 16. And she's waking up, you know, looking for her best friend from high school, looking for her parents and only remembering that, but then realizing that she's really 29 and married and, you know, all of that. And a recent widow is happens on the first page.

And how do you, uh, Align those two versions of yourself when you sometimes can't even recognize yourself, which I would venture to say a lot of people feel sometimes, like, what would my 16 year old self feel about my 29 year old or my 49 year old or my 69 year old self? Is this what she would have wanted?

And all of that. So I found also so interesting was how do you take that vantage point and that innocence And keep it going so that you can stay true to who you are or were, or when do you become yourself? All these big questions. That's 

Emma: right. That's exactly how I get, you know, I was thinking the other day, I think there's a part of me in, in that when I was 42.

My husband died. My whole world was upturned. I found myself with, without the future that I'd planned. And I think that I have put part of those feelings into Evie's character for an entirely different reason. And so she's woken up and I think there are a lot of women in particular who reached any of those ages that you've mentioned and start to wonder, How did I get here?

How did my life end up right here? This is not how I imagined it. It's not how I planned. And then are in a position with a sort of wide open future sometimes to have to reconstruct or, or construct in an entirely different way. And it's an opportunity that sometimes it's forced upon you, like in my case where I didn't want that and I wish I didn't have it.

And I've been forced to do it anyway. And the same with Evie. And then there are other people who, who just have those feelings, I think, and we do look back at our 16 year old self. I've got a lot of my diaries from when I was a teenager. I won't be reading them live on a podcast, but it does sort of capture a lot of the same feelings.

And I did want to capture that innocence and the dreams that you tend to have at 16, the future that you imagined for yourself in your career and, and relationships and try to, try to give her this, this second chance at life. It's a, it's a do over in a way, but again, not in a way that she would have wanted.

Zibby: It also, in addition to her friendship with Bree, we have this friendship with Drew, which follows Evie throughout her life and becomes. Highly relevant as she gets in the car with Drew in the very opening, or scene. Drew is someone who she has had this lifelong relationship with and has to piece back together.

He has another interesting subplot where he is taking care of his mom and that is sort of taking him out of the childhood innocence and catapulting him into a much more sort of removed, mature, you know, not by his own, you know, you can't go out and have fun at a party when you're, you know making sure your, your mom is alive and, you know, primary caretaker for someone.

I was hoping you could speak to that and sort of the pressures of caretaking at any stage and how it can make you feel so removed from the mainstream in a way and what that, that does to his character as he progresses through the book. 

Emma: I think that that character and that maturity that he's forced to have is probably a bit of a tribute to my children who had to grow up very quickly when, when Jeff died.

And they were, two of them were teenagers and then a little boy who was five who is now a teenager and towering over me. But the, the kids lost a lot of their innocence and they, they weren't caring for me, but in a way they were at times, there was a lot of grief there. And of course I was being the parent to them, but Drew has to really be the parent and step up and look after his mum.

And there are so many young kids and teenagers who are carers of their parents. And I did want to incorporate that storyline to just make it clearer that there are a lot of kids who just can't have that party lifestyle and who may not even be interested in some of that because they've just been forced by circumstances to step up in a way that most people can avoid for decades.

You know, there's a lot of the, stuff he was doing with his mom that I'm doing now at 50 with my dad, who's 92. So that's sort of more natural. And, um, and I think it was really important to capture that because I think that the way that that life experience formed his character is very relevant to how he's able to get his head around everything that's happening with Evie later on.

Zibby: So I know because I've seen all of your amazing photographs about your newfound passion for photography, especially in nature and the colors. And oh my gosh, you're so good. Drew has this as well. And Evie to some extent, because she was in the class as well at the beginning, but this is a huge through line.

And it's how we see things how we see people and I feel like photography in a way is a metaphor for What is going on and how the the reader is actually viewing the subject of the book and all of that But take us through a little bit your newfound passion for photography how you put in all of the technical and all things.

And now are you going to, you know, move to New York and go work for a magazine and as a, as a photographer. 

Emma: You mean a job, Zibby? Cause yeah, I'll be over there in a second. No, photography is something that I found in the last few years. Really it was during the pandemic actually. I started off with just an iPhone photography course and we were allowed out of the house.

for an hour a day on a walk. And I found that just becoming absorbed in taking photos of what I was seeing really helped me to forget what was going on in the world. And that then I graduated to a proper camera. And at first I had no idea how to use it. I did a whole lot of online YouTube tutorials and little courses to work out what the exposure triangle was and how to operate the camera.

And, and then I fell into. to macro photography, which is taking a really, really close up magnified photos of things. And there was just something so healing for me in my grief to be able to get so focused on the minute details of a flower or a, I've got some photos of, you know, Of dew drops on tulips that reflect the tulips around them in the dew drop and that kind of thing.

I would forget my surroundings and really I love writing so much and you do too, but there's something about photography that just I can get completely lost in. I think with writing you've still got your brain engaged, hopefully most of the time, but with photography it's just become this almost extension of myself.

So. I loved the photography line through this, through this novel and the fact that these two Evie and Drew are putting on an exhibition and just, it is, it is about perspective. It always is and whether I'm out taking a photo of a tiny little blade of grass with, you know, frost on it, or if I'm out in the middle of the night taking photos of the Aurora or the Milky Way and the moon, and it gives you a different perspective every single time.

And so I, I just love it. And I just, my, my wish for everyone is that. We can find something, whether it's cooking or gardening or photography or craft or whatever it is, that is a creative outlet that, that really is the only thing that gets me through a lot of the chaos that we're all feeling in the world at the moment.

Zibby: I am with you. I love photography and I used to, I did like summer programs in it as a kid and there is something about that when you zoom in. And I used to have one of those lenses that, you know. Just zooming in on a flower and you're just like, oh my gosh, right? I mean, it sounds so silly, but it's not, and it's so freeing in a way.

And I don't know, there's something about looking at the world in a new way, which is what writers do, but photography is yet another way. lens, another way to see through it. And FYI, and I'm sure we won't be able to do this, but in our marketing meeting yesterday for the book, I was like, what if we have our own exhibit pictures of you and we get like famous photographers to put portraits of women with the captions and all of that and like have it in a gallery.

So I don't know, I don't know how we can pull it off, but this is my dream. 

Emma: Cause here was I thinking, wouldn't it be great if we did a social media campaign of pictures of you where people could, we could, well, could post a photo they've taken with a caption of a woman. And you of course have taken it to a completely other, another level.

Zibby: We thought of that too. 

Emma: I love that. 

Zibby: Graca on our team thought we should do maybe a contest where people submit and we can get photography students and then have a winner and then, I don't know, have people submit that way. Anyway, our, our brains are spinning, so hopefully by the time this episode comes out, we will have launched something fun, at the least some sort of party in a gallery or something.

You know, I'm, um, but anyway, we're working on it. There's another 8, 000 thousand layers in this book, but of criminology and also linguistics and how the two sort of interweave and what you can even learn from speech patterns. Do you also know all about like, where did that come from? 

Emma: And I think the linguistics came from my sister.

Okay. She did linguistics at university. She ended up with the university medal in linguistics, actually, and forensic linguistics has always been her hobby. She didn't go down that path professionally, but she's been feeding me information on this for 30 years. You know, she's just fascinated by it. So That, that really came from her and then the criminology angle from my daughter.

So I love to bring in the interests of the people around me, which is why when my other daughter was 14 and was obsessed with Harry Styles, I ended up writing a boy band book for her, a teenage novel. I've just, I was thinking the other day, gosh, it's my son, really, that I haven't written a book for. So I don't know if I can write a novel about Minecraft or something next.

Zibby: That's okay. 

Emma: I don't know how it works. 

Zibby: No, no, it's fine. 

Emma: We'll draw the line there probably, won't we? 

Zibby: Maybe. Yeah. Well, maybe there'll be a character, a character who likes Minecraft. That's good enough. 

Emma: I could well be. Oh, it's nice to just sort of interact with the people around you and you pick up so many interesting little diversions when you're having conversations with your family and friends.

And I think as a writer, somebody says one little thing and that just sets off the light bulb and you've taken off with an idea. 

Zibby: Yeah. And what about the bioluminescence in the water? Have you seen that? 

Emma: No, that is top of my bucket list. So I wrote about the aurora in the last love note. I've seen that and taken photos.

I have searched for bioluminescence and I've been at the beaches where it commonly occurs here. But gosh, you will be the first to know and I'll be taking photos, plastering them all over Instagram when the day comes. It's just beautiful. 

Zibby: Wow, that would be neat. I mean, it's so magical, the whole thing. Oh my gosh.

Well, thank you for transporting me, as I am the reader in this case, into this world and rooting for someone so much. It's just, it's such an immersive experience and the water is just one element that is a perfect representation of how it feels to be in this book is sort of swimming in something magical that lights up in different ways and makes you feel sort of refreshed and connected afterwards.

I know you have a new book that you're working on. Can you talk about that? 

Emma: Sure. Yes, I'm sort of got to think about how to talk about that without giving too much away about the, the twists and turns in that one, but it's called Start at the End. And it's a story about love, uh, again, and also fresh beginnings and a slightly older protagonist this time again, like it was in the last Love Note.

And I think. I think I, I've just been attracted to the idea of having a light touch in the writing on really deep topics. So this one will explore a few other bits and pieces. Divorce, you know, I think anything that attracts me now these days is about identity, perspective, memory, false memory, all kinds of, you know, really interesting little Diversions down the neurological path, and I'm just having so much fun pulling this new story together.

Oh 

Zibby: my 

Emma: gosh. I can't wait to read it. 

Zibby: That is something that you do so well. You'll be reading a scene and totally in it, and then I will be stopped in my tracks by a paragraph that just hits so deep and you don't even know it's coming and it, it weaves in seamlessly. Let me try to find an example. Here's one about grief, if you don't mind, if I could just read this quickly.

I don't even know if I can trust you, she admits, and I need to get my head together. After all this time, surely I can summon enough long overdue perspective and keep her safe. That must have been some knock to the head. This is Drew talking, by the way. She's so vague, she's practically two dimensional.

How do you just forget? Maybe it's grief. No, I know grief. You don't forget details. It's the opposite. Details torment you. They swirl through your mind in a relentless, agonizing loop until you think you'll go mad. The phone call you let go through to voicemail because you were too busy reading a book.

The offhandedness of that last text message. The endless, haunting, unchangeable dance of all that was said and unsaid. As life pushes you further from the opportunity you lost to make things right. Oh, that's so good. 

Emma: Even hearing you read it sort of hits me again because I think any of us who've ever lost anyone and I know today is a difficult day for you.

We're recording this on September 11th. And I, so I'm thinking of you and I know anybody who's been through anything involving loss understands that feeling. And that sense of what if I had done something differently? What if I'd said something differently? said something. What was my last message? I, I, you know, you go back and through, what was my last email?

What was my last text message? Trying to make sure that what you said was, was good or right. And you didn't leave someone hanging. And, and, you know, I've said to so many people, we can't have these hot, high standards for ourselves. We are human beings and we just, we all. We all live in this moment. We do the best we can every day and we make mistakes.

And so I think what Drew is sort of capturing there is that sense that, you know, you long for an opportunity to undo things and do things differently and we can't have it. And That's the hard thing. 

Zibby: Wow. Well, Emma, congratulations. Thank you for everything. Congratulations on writing another book that is just so great and I am such a huge fan and I feel honored to know you well and get to watch this on all sides as it unfolds.

But I have so much respect for you and for everything. 

Emma: Oh, thank you. The feeling is entirely mutual, of course, and I'm just so grateful. Grateful to you for everything as well. 

Zibby: Thank you.