Zibby welcomes back New York Times bestselling author Emily Giffin to discuss THE SUMMER PACT, a tender and heartfelt novel about four college friends who, after suffering a tragedy their senior year, make a pact that causes them to reunite a decade later and embark on a life-changing adventure together. Emily delves into her characters’ individual journeys, touching on narcissistic parents, high academic and athletic pressures, personal growth and self-worth, and the importance of formative friendships and found families.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Emily. Thank you so much for coming back on Mom's Not a Time to Read Books to discuss the Summer Pact. Congratulations. 

Emily: Thank you, Zibby. It's good to be back with you. I can't believe it's been two years since you did my Q and A for the launch of Meant to Be. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. 

Emily: Flew by. 

Zibby: Flew by. Like two seconds.

Oh my gosh. I don't even know what happened. This is, anyway, yes. But thank you so much for inviting me to do that event with you in downtown. That was so fun. 

I haven't even been back to that place now that I think about it. I can't remember what it was called, but it was really fun. Anyway, The Summer Pact.

Please tell listeners what this book is about, which, by the way, I really enjoyed and had a lot of really important thoughts. heavier themes packaged in a very sweet, uplifting cover and message and, you know, but really important heavier themes hidden with, not even hidden. 

Emily: There were some. 

Zibby: There were some.

Strolled throughout. That's a better, that's a better way. 

Emily: Yeah. You know, I think, so the book is about four friends who meet in college and they're just best friends and they click in that way. That so happens when we, you know, go off to school or, you know, a coming of age friendships and a tragedy strikes their senior year in college and they make this pact that they will always come together and be there for, they will always be there for one another and they will always come together if, you know, anything terrible were to ever happen again, or they, any of them were to hit rock bottom.

They make this like, you know, pact to their friendship. And, uh, about 10 years later, after graduation, something happens and they get in touch with one another and they make good on this promise. So the book is about their journey. They, they go to Italy as the, as the cover suggests. They go to Cadbury and they also go to, uh, Dallas, Texas and Paris.

But the majority of the book takes place in Italy and it's about, you know, this trip they take, but also about their inner journey. And, and they all, they, they all discover that they're sort of at a crossroads at life. Um, some of them didn't know at the start of the book that they had something to deal with.

But by the end, by the middle, they, they, they realized this. And it's sort of about how friendship, the healing power of friendship. And how important that is in our lives. But yeah, so I'm glad you enjoyed it. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh, there's a passage at the end. Do you mind if I read this little section? 

Emily: No, no, go for it.

Zibby: Where you say, Sometimes it almost seems too good to be true, which scares me. The stakes feel so high, and I can't bear the thought of a breakup causing any sort of rift in the bedrock of our friendship. But I have come to learn that we can't live our lives in a small, fear based way. We have to take risks, we have to love big, and we have to have faith in our relationships.

They've gotten us this far. And then you close by saying, I laugh hoping that someone captures the perfect shot. Then again, I know that's not what matters. Our lives will never be perfect, nor will the photos we take. What matters is that we are all doing our best. We are showing up for one another, even when things get rough, and against all odds.

We are finding our way to happiness. Oh, it's so good. I mean, it's good. It's just like. 

Emily: Well, thank you, Zibby. 

Zibby: It's like a, you close and you're like, Uh, you know, I put my hand over my heart. That's what I'm doing on this podcast. 

Emily: Well, you know, I like, and this is, I don't think this is a spoiler, but I do like satisfying endings.

They don't always have to be completely tied up in the Nepo and perfect, but I like, The sense of, you know, finding my characters in a, in a place of, of satisfying closure, even if it's not perfect, as that passage suggests. 

Zibby: So, so yeah, well, I'm glad you liked it. Okay. Well, tell me a little bit more about the narcissistic mother character.

Emily: You know, I don't, somewhere along the way of the last few years, Narcissism showed up in my algorithm and, you know, I can't remember the phone listens to you, but I don't have a narcissist like a full blown narcissist in my life. I wouldn't say, but I have friends with parents who are or siblings who are or husbands who became ex husbands.

And so I really do think that phone listened and it somehow got on my thread and I started to post these videos because I post a lot on my stories. I just posted these videos and then I heard from people that had narcissists in life and I thought, you know, it's an ensemble cast. So I'll have one of these.

And, and one of the things that these young people, although they're, they're not that young, they're 32, they're young to me, but are dealing with, there's sort of these familial expectations that we, I think many of us experience along the way in our lives. I mean, certainly, and when we're younger, but I don't think we ever fully escape them.

You know, I think some of us, if they're more mentally, you know, healthy, we are, and that those relationships are healthy, we can sort of live our own lives with the support of our parents. But, um, I think it haunts a lot of us and in various ways. And so I thought it would be interesting given how many people have this threat in their lives to have one of them.

With a narcissistic mother, which I think from my observations is the most painful the most. It's the most painful for some reason, when the mother, at least in my limited purview when your mother is a narcissist, because I think. Although maybe equally painful for your father to be one, there's these, this societal expectation that your mother is going to be nurturing and maternal and loving and there for you.

And when that doesn't happen, I think it's compounded. The disappointment is compounded. So Hannah in the book, she's from Atlanta where I live, where I've lived for 20 almost 21 years. She grew up in Buckhead where I lived for 20 years. I've moved a little, it's a couple, two miles away into Midtown Atlanta now, but.

She grew up in Buckhead and she has this mother who very much wants her life to be perfect and part of that perfection comes in the form of, or a lot of that perfection comes in the form of, a romantic partner because Hannah's mother is one of those that thinks you have to sort of marry right and, And have children who are sort of perfect and they're like your little props in life and you have to have the right social circle.

And so when something goes wrong, which, which is sort of the, the incident that kicks off the modern day portion of this book, Hannah's mother is none too thrilled with, with Hannah's reaction to it. It's not even what happened to her daughter. How. Hannah chooses to, to deal with this aftermath. And I think it's something that a lot of people were going to be able to relate to.

And if they, they can't relate to it in terms of their own parents, they certainly have a close friend who's been impacted by someone like Hannah's mother. So that was, it was interesting to write about and I think very true to life.

Zibby: I also think sometimes the reactions that you get from people like your parents or close friends or whatever when something goes wrong in your own relationship, the reactions often have nothing to do with you.

It's, it's so much about them, right? 

Emily: I think, I think that's very true. Yes. I think, you know, I think that if you're completely, you know, well, and, and None of us are completely well adjusted or completely mentally healthy or no issues to work through. But I think the more you are that, the more you can let go of trying to control other people, and their reactions to what you're doing or to their lives.

So yeah, I think that was something that Hannah had to deal with in this book and her journey. It was a definite theme for her. So, but even Tyson, he's, um, He was one of the friends, the only, the only, uh, male in this group, but he, he had much healthier relationships with his parents, but they still, he still faced, you know, pressure from them and in the form of wanting him to, you know, sort of be successful as a lawyer.

And, and that wasn't because of shallow reasons. They just thought you've worked so hard. You deserve to have this kind of life and I could relate more to, to that. I remember when I told my mother was a librarian at the time, she retired now, but when I told her I was leaving my job as a lawyer to go write.

Something borrowed in London. She was very supportive. And my father, although he's very supportive, he's risk averse and he was not so thrilled with my uncomfortable job. And you know, I worried about that. I worried, what if I move, I write this book. I'd already have been rejected on another manuscript that had taken me five years to write.

while I practice law. And I thought, you know, if this happens again, if I'm rejected again, you know, I don't want to let him down. I don't want to worry him. So, you know, there's, there's the weight of those expectations. So Tyson, Tyson had to deal with that. And then Laney's just a complete loose cannon. And she's, um, you had a whole other set of things that she had to struggle with, but you know, and she lost her mother and did not have a close relationship with her father.

So, I mean, the book is very much about our found family. You know, we, we have our family that we're born with and some of us have great relationships and make that work. And some of us, you know, go no, no contact and some of them lose every, you know, you lose everyone and like you're an only child and both parents die.

I mean, so there's all, it's a whole mixed bag, but, and I think it kind of happens in your starts in your twenties and builds upon that, but you have your found family and your support system that you've chosen. And that have chosen you and those come in the form of our, you know, very best friends. And you're lucky if that aligns and one of your siblings is that I have that with my sister, Sarah, but my best friend from college, Nancy is, is like another sister to me.

And she's, I mean, I quite literally found her across the hall at Wake Forest university. So, and we've stuck together ever since it was, it was special sharing this book with Nancy. Because, of course, we're college best friends, and I'm writing about college best friends, so we, we did quite a lot of reminiscing as I sent her chapters along the way, because she's always a first reader, too, and has been for every book, so that was kind of neat.

Do you have, um, Zibby, or do you have, like, best friends from college, or are you more of a high school best friend girl? 

Zibby: I do, although I have to say my, my best friend from college who lived across the hall from me starting in freshman year and then I lived with her the rest of school and after college she ended up dying on 9/ 11.

She worked in the North Tower. 

Emily: So beautiful. If you haven't, I mean, I'm sure everyone here has read that, but it's beautiful. 

Zibby: Thank you. Thank you. But I have lots of other good friends from college who I adore and who I'm in close touch with and just saw one recently and, and good friends from high school.

I don't know. I, you know, there's nothing like someone who's known you for so long. so long and who knows you so well. And what you write in the book, too, is about this time of life. Like, what is it about, especially this coming of age friendships? I mean, that's how you start the whole book, right? It's like when you're forming your own selfhood, right, at those very critical ages, the people who you glom onto.

And I guess back in the day, you would get married at that young age. But now, of course, we don't. So it's almost like they become these sort of, like, interim spouses in a way, right? You, you share so much and like your identities kind of fuse for a while until you then usually end up separating and pairing off in other ways.

But I don't know. There's something very formative about that step of development. 

Emily: Absolutely. You know, growing up, my favorite, you know, your favorite movie and your favorite book so often is like about what's going on in your life when you read it. Yes. And, um, or when you see the film, like if it. If I, anyway, my favorite movie for me is stand by me.

Of course, it's based on a developed Stephen King, which was called the body, which I loved as well. But this movie I saw, um, I just moved to Chicago and I miss my friends from Philadelphia so much. And it was showing at the dollar theater. It wasn't a new release, obviously if it was a dollar, if it was dollar theater, but I watched it maybe upwards of 10 times alone in the theater.

And then eventually got my brother word processor. I got it on. I got the. tape the, the beta or the, you know, the VHS tape and I would pause it after every line, write it down by hand and then went back and typed it all up on my brother word processor. I had the script to stand by me in the movie, which is about, you know, four boys, 12 year olds.

Looking for this dead body in the woods and so I mean nothing that I should be able to relate to it's like four boys and this adventure in the woods and it's set in Oregon, but of course I did it resonated with me so much and that movie is just always stayed with me, but one of the lines and it was, you know, it's Richard Dreyfuss at the end and he's typing on his computer reflecting back and he says, you never had friends later on the like the ones you had when you were 12.

Jesus does anyone and that was that I actually quote from that line, I quote, like I had my characters in my book are watching that movie after the tragedy happens and reflecting on that quote. So yeah, that was, it's for, for, for the characters in stand by me, it was age 12. And for my characters that happened, you know, a bit later, but it's that, that's that time when you sort of lose your innocence and you are.

Something happens to really, like, permanently change you and, you know, just sort of repel you into this reality that you weren't able, you didn't have to face before. And that's kind of, you know, what, what the Summer Pact is about, but it's also, you know, I tried to write. A lot about, you know, there's, there's a lot of humorous scenes in it.

And I, you know, tried to have like, you know, light moments as well, because as you know, when you're going through something, you know, laughter sometimes, you know, it's such a cliche, but it really is the best medicine. And, um, I think that's really what helps bring Hannah out of it to have Haney Laney's humor, especially she was just sort of the comic relief and all of this.

And, um, I think it's nice for a friend group to have a Laney to who sort of, you know, brings levity and perspective. Well, she also brought quite a bit of drama and waited in her own way. But some of the sometimes those people are, you know, bring the highs and lows. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Emily: Laura Hannah was just so steady in part because her mother, you know, she had been reacting to this narcissist for so long that you have to sort of be steady or you're going to rock the boat.

So yeah. And then, and the mix of personalities, I think is so fun to write about because you are one person sometimes with one friend and you're another way with another friend. And then other people are just very consistent with who they are. Yes. You know, throughout. And so there was a little bit of, of that analysis in the book as well.

But I just love relationships, Zippy. I mean, I love all aspects of our friendships and the layers that come with, you know, you know, romantic relationships and friendships and, you know, parents and, and children and siblings and all, and just every facet of relationships I think is just so fun to explore.

And I just can't wait for people to meet these characters. Cause you know, you, you write them. I've, I've been with them for two years and only a handful of people know who they are, which is, uh, and I just, there's something about a lot of people think of pub dates. Some authors think of pub dates in terms of, you know, this nerve wracking, you got to go out and go on a book tour and what are your sales look like?

And I think I have had that approach in the past. Some of the books that I've released, but for this one, it's very much Meet my people, meet my people. So I really can't wait to hear from people about that. 

Zibby: So was it the, was it the characters that came to you first or the plot? How did you, like, where did they all come from?

Emily: The concept of a coming of age friendship rooted in high school or college. And I, and, and, and I started out thinking I was going to do high school, but then I moved to college because one of the things that I think is interesting about that is You, you all come from different places, so, you know, when you're in high school, your high school friends, you're sort of all, I mean, you can be a diverse group, but you share a lot of, I mean, you're, you're all at the same school, and you're, you know, usually, I mean, it's more diversity in some schools than others, but.

College it's, it's much more built in. So I wanted to do that. And I wanted to touch on this theme of like, of, of college athletes and the pressure that they're under. And, you know, I have two sons, twin sons who run track and cross country at Columbia, which was quite a time to be at Columbia this past year, this past semester, like we could do a whole podcast, but you know, I, I think that young people in general, people.

At all ages, but they put so much pressure on themselves to be, to be perfect, to, to be successful, to collect achievements and climb the ladder of success. And. It's so damaging to our mental health to view life that way. And, you know, I had a moment with my daughter, so I have three children. She's, my sons are very high achieving.

They, you know, they're obviously at Columbia. They were running at a high level. They're very academic and they just sort of always have been. And my daughter is less academic. She's dyslexic. She's more of a leader in school. She's in student government. She's had conferences where teachers have said to me, she's my favorite, one of my favorite students I've ever taught.

Now, my boys got a lot of praise along the way at teacher conferences, a lot of, you know, you know, they're incredible students, but I don't remember anyone ever saying they're my favorite kid I ever taught. So, you know, it's, she's her own person, but she went through a period of comparing herself to her brothers and feeling, I think, just inadequate.

And I had to sit her down and really Have this like heart to heart and just remind her like you, you know, we aren't the sum of our accomplishments We aren't you know, you don't take a person and then you know, you you add up everything they've done how much money they've made You know, how many weeks were they on the bestseller list or did their book not even ever get published or you know?

How many albums did they sell or? Or did their, did their marriage last or did they get a divorce? I mean, all these different metrics of success, that's not who, who you are. I mean, it's a part of your life and it's important to chase your dreams, but you are the sum of your relationships. You are, you know, Harriet is the girl who she's always cold and always wears like four sweatshirts.

But if she goes to soccer practice and someone else is cold, she'll give the sweatshirt to them. You know, she's also the one that, She's in, as I said, student government, but she's the one that'd be like, this is the way it's going to be like lay down the law. She doesn't care if people like her, but she wants the performance to be right.

So she's got these wonderful skills and, and none of them have to do with her GPA, which is, which is, she's doing, she was doing much better now. This was the eighth grade when we talked about this and she's, you know, doing much better right now. But these characters in my book and in other books that I've written in the past have to sort of, it's a theme that I feel compelled to explore because I think it's so important, especially with the layer of social media and what you're presenting to the world and how you feel about your marriage compared to someone else's marriage and do your children compared to someone else's children and these children are going to this college and these, you know, my child is, you know, been rejected, but all of that, it's not who we are. I mean, and it's speaking of algorithms, They must hear me saying, think my phone must be right now because the Steve Jobs quote keeps coming around to me where he says, you know, we talks about doesn't matter how expensive your car is or this and that.

And I haven't read his autobiography, but my understanding is that he sort of on his deathbed had this, you know, he sort of talked about. Obviously one of the most successful entrepreneurs in the world, but he had a troubled relationship with his daughter and in the end, that's what he focused on and that's what he felt was missing in his life.

And I, I think that if you could, if he could go back, he would have probably done things differently. So I know that's kind of, I know I've kind of went off on a tangent, but it's so important to the character summer. So summer's actually a person, the Summer Pact book takes place in the summer, but that's her name.

But it was, it was very important. to her college experience, this like quest for absolute perfection and for the highest level of achievement, which isn't what makes us who we are and it's not what makes us lovable to and worthy of love, um, at all. So I don't write with messages in mind, but it's one that I, that I think is in this book and I, and I hope.

People, particularly young people, take away when they read it. 

Zibby: A hundred percent. I have like a thousand thoughts to everything you were saying. 

Emily: And as I'm saying some of these things, there's some parallels in my life and your life where I'm thinking we could do a whole nother sit down. 

Zibby: Oh, yes. 

Emily: But yeah.

Yeah. So. 

Zibby: No, but I love hearing about your, your daughter too, because I think it's easier from us at this age, like we see what happens when, just like after the school process, but when you're in it, it feels like it will never, ever end. And if like, even just saying like, you just have to get through school, which sometimes, you know, to one of my kids, I'm like, you're going to be fine.

You just have to like get through school, get through school. And then like, it doesn't even matter anymore. Right. It just doesn't even matter. It's who you are as a person. So. 

Emily: Right, right. It's such a small, small part. I mean, no one goes around asking your GPA when you're walking around in the world and some of the most successful people didn't do school well and vice, you know, it just, yeah, man, it breaks my heart to see, you know, kids, young people just putting all of this pressure on themselves and feeling so bad about who they are.

Yes. Because of these, like, because of the admissions decision of a, of a college that they probably wouldn't even be happy at in the first place. Where their husband or their best, new best friend, hopefully not a husband, it's a little young to meet your husband in college, but it happens. Your people who are going to make you happy for the next 70 years of your life are waiting for you to be discovered by you and they're just there and this decision by this admissions counselor to say nope you can't come here will lead you to those people and I really I really do believe in that I do believe in that sort of like you know that sort of fate and that sort of destiny and that things will work out as they should.

Zibby: Yes. And that there are just so many different paths. 

Emily: So many different. 

Zibby: Right. Like yes, maybe that husband we lost out on, but maybe you got to this other husband over here. By the way, I know a minute ago you were talking about, you know, the pressures of social media and all that, and I happen to love that you inserted it.

Like an Instagram influencer is, is sort of a villain early on in the book. You had to, you had to. 

Emily: She's sort of a harmless villain. I mean, she's not totally harmless. You know, I think some of those people are just caricatures of themselves. They're just like Saturday Night Live's kids. And I think it's hilarious that some of those influencers.

They think they're posting to influence us, but really so many people follow them to sort of, because they're, they're caricatures. It's like they're, they're amused by it. They can't wait to see the next entertainment. Yeah. And then there's some who are not at all extreme in that way. And they really do give you the best fashion advice and you know, there's, I love following a lot of them when they're so when there's when they seem real, you know, it's at this point, it's 2024 we're four years out of COVID like we've been through so much like in the world at this point, don't we just want real like a sliver of real.

I mean, you can do the polished shots and let you know, the party shots and there's beautiful moments in our life where we're like, Oh my gosh, this is so instagrammable and can't wait to throw that up on the, uh, my page and my feed. And share this, but it's just about being real. Don't you think? 

Zibby: Yes. Yes.

Emily: And this chick, she is, she is, she is not that. 

Zibby: Yeah. Yeah. I definitely try to be real in my Instagram. Although the other day, after I got through like this ridiculously tough weekend of kid logistics, for the first time ever, I posted like this victory slide, like. I, I think I deserve a medal for like, cause we had so many places to be and I thought I had pulled it off and then, and I posted it and then like my daughter came over to school the next day and was like, you forgot Finn's birthday party.

Like I didn't go. And I was like, Oh my gosh. So yeah.

Emily: I hate those. I hate, you know, and I just did that recently with, with Harriet. I, I, I just didn't see it in my inbox. I'm really bad with email. I'm like, I don't miss texts, but I'm really bad with email. I think it's because I've signed up for too much spam over the years, but yeah, I just wish that the kids would invite each other directly at this point instead of going through the mothers.

Zibby: Yeah. Yeah. I can't. 

Emily: You just pass it on. Are you free that day? Are you not? And then you're responding. But again, that's another podcast. Right. 

Zibby: Yeah. Well, tell me quickly about your experience meeting the Queen of England. 

Emily: Yeah. What a good note to end on. There's, um, there's the messy real stuff of life. And then there's my last couple of posts, which was anything but the messy part of life.

In fact, it was a very hard transition to come back here after being to going, uh, when it was in England over the weekend and I went to the Queen's writing room reception. So it was. As a huge royal watcher, I mean, I think anybody who knows me knows how much I love the royal family and love Queen Elizabeth and love King Charles.

God save the king. And I think Camilla has done such a wonderful job so far with, with this, with her reading room and encouraging people to read. And one of the statistics that I heard over the weekend was, before I get to my curtsy, within just five minutes of reading a day, you know, it's like you have your 10, 000 steps and you're excited roots and vegetables and all these things, but they say just five minutes of reading anything a day and I don't think that counts as scrolling on your phone. It's like reading a book does just chemically so much to your brain and really like staves off Alzheimer's. And so, um, She's, yeah, I think she's amazing and she's so strong and if, if we think about what she went through as like, you know, for years and years and years, it's just quietly doing her duty and getting through all of the attacks in the press.

She's, I think she's really a remarkable person. Anyway, I met her. I didn't know if that was gonna happen. I knew I would see her because it was a reception and I knew that there weren't that many people invited. So I was just thrilled with the idea of seeing her 'cause in, again, in a capacity that's different than standing on the street, which I did for her coronation. But this was, this was just incredible. I was in this queue and she sort of was coming along and saying hello to people. And when I got, when she got to me, I just, you know, I did my curtsy, slight bow, which technically were not her subjects. As we know from, you know, we know from a lot of things, including Hamilton, that you'll be back, kept playing in my mind and I was thinking, yes, I will be back.

I will be back. And I wish we had lost the war because I wish I were your subject. I'm kidding, partly. But yeah, I did. I did a curtsied and then I shook her hand and we chatted for a few minutes and she was, she was so lovely and so warm. She has the best hair, too. She has really good, thick, like, shiny hair that's just, but yeah, it was, it was thrilling.

And of course, all of this is happening at Hampton Court Palace, so you're just like, thinking Henry VIII, and, you know, it's just, it was a powerful moment. And I, and I put it on Instagram, and it looks fabulous. Freaking good. 

Zibby: Yes, it does. 

Emily: But what I need to post next is that the pile of tennis shoes, three kids are runners, the pile of disarray and tennis shoes that I walked home to was a bar cry from Hampton Court Palace.

Zibby: Yes, we have, we have a lot of sandals and Birkenstocks and sneakers. I got the whole mix at the front door and I'm just like, I think I'm just going to pair these shoes and put them in a line and then just like leave them here. You know, I'm not going to try to find the right closets. I'm just like, going to make it look a little bit neater.

Emily: I'd carry mine from the outside, like from the outside the door, I carry them upstairs and just line them up at the top of the stairwell. It makes me feel like a little better just to not see them when you walk in. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Emily: But. You know, what are you going to do? We'll, we'll miss those. We'll miss that. At one point, which is another cliche, but it's so true.

Zibby: Oh, it's so true. It's so nice that they're all home. So, Emily, thank you so much. This was so fun and congratulations on another fabulous book. 

Emily: Well, thank you so much and thanks again for having me on and, um, we'll get to talk soon. 

Zibby: Yes. Perfect. 

Emily: Much to catch up. 

Zibby: Yes.