Award-winning New York Times reporter Elizabeth Harris chats with Zibby about her witty, whip-smart, and compulsively readable debut, HOW TO SLEEP AT NIGHT. Elizabeth delves into the interconnected stories in the novel: a suburban mom struggling with lost ambition, a political reporter questioning her career, and a gay couple navigating political differences and addiction. She touches on the complexities of marriage and parenthood, the theme of love and family ties stretched thin by ambition, the balance of personal and professional ethics, and the evolving representation of LGBTQ+ experiences in literature.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Liz. Thanks so much for coming on to talk about how to sleep at night.

Your first novel. Congratulations. 

Elizabeth: Yay! Thank you so much for having me. Sorry, I'm a little excited. 

Zibby: You should be excited. The book is great and there's so much to discuss in the book and in the content. And it's timely and yet universal with all the motherhood stuff and parenting and then politics and lost loves.

There's just so much. Okay, go back and tell listeners what your book is about, please. 

Elizabeth: Sure. So the book is about, it's about marriage and ambition and what, what happens when who you are in the world doesn't match how you see yourself. So there's a woman, um, living in suburban New Jersey who's become a stay at home mom by accident and it's a terrible fit for her.

And she feels like an accessory in her husband's life and desperate to feel like what she wants actually matters. She reconnects with an old girlfriend who is, um, a woman who is a big shot political reporter. Quarter at a big, big national newspaper, and her career is her entire life, but it's become a job that she sort of dreads and resents.

And there's this saying that people who live the uniform more than playing the game, and she's afraid she's become like that. And then meanwhile, a few towns over, we meet these two men who are married. One is a democrat, one is a Republican, and then as the book begins, the Republican decides to run for office.

Zibby: Amazing. Well, there's, you know, it's funny when you said your self image doesn't match. You should read this book, not to, not to recommend another book while I'm talking to you about your book, but there's a book called Chasing Peace by Tom Rochert. It's nonfiction and it's basically that entire concept.

Explored. So, you two might have a really interesting conversation. Kind of out of the box. 

Elizabeth: I would love to. I would totally read that. I find that idea just so fascinating. Like, especially because sort of like, as you reach different phases in your life, I feel like it's something everyone experiences, right?

Like, when you graduate from college for the first, you know, you're sort of out in the world as an adult in whatever way for the first time, this sort of, this, you know, your self image probably doesn't really match kind of what you're doing and, you know, your day to day. Like, if you get divorced, when you have kids, you know, there are all of these, when you retire or just.

you know, middle age, whatever, like, they're all of these times when, you know, you just, you just feel really lost and like you've sort of lost the thread of your own story and it can, and sort of nothing makes people crazier than that. 

Zibby: Exactly. Yes. The, the hunt for some sort of acceptance can be your demise, to be honest, you know, but hard to achieve.

Okay. So, um, I love Ethan's relationship with Gabe and how you, well, really all the relationships, but you include all the day to day stuff that like anyone in a relationship can experience. However, because of the political ambitions, there's this whole overlay and what do you do when like you want to support someone, but you don't support what they want, but you support them?

Like what do you put first? It's to do some sort of push down your own. feelings or not. I don't know. So complicated. And then Ethan also has this past with, that comes up to sort of haunt him, but with his drinking problems and all of that. So maybe talk a little bit about that and both addiction or, you know, substance stuff also with, you know, how to, how to know how to prioritize without losing yourself and your relationship.

Elizabeth: Totally. I mean, I think that's, you know, I feel like that's such a, that's such a day to day problem, right? And this is sort of just a problem and, you know, uh, something we all navigate in marriage, but like on steroids, right? And uh, you know, trying to figure out kind of where, where you fit in your relationship and sort of how do you support the, you know, hopefully, hopefully you want all the same things and that would be lovely, but you know.

Life is complicated. Right? And so these two people have, you know, Gabe and Ethan have this like, really a very solid, good marriage. You know, they really take good care of each other in a sort of, you know, everyday, day to day way. Like, they're really, like, they're a really great team and a really great partnership.

But then, uh, you know, and, and yeah. When they first get together, they're not that far apart on politics, I don't agree, but it's not, it's not that extreme. And then over the years, which does happen with some people, they sort of drift further and further away until they sort of wake up, you know, they've woken up one day and there's almost no overlap between them anymore.

And I think that's something a lot of people deal with. But then, uh, You know, one of them decides to run for office. And so that becomes their sort of this thing, the hardest part of their relationship. And the thing they disagree on becomes like the center of their lives. And the thing that, you know, they both become kind of famous for basically.

And like, what would you do if Suddenly, you're known for these beliefs you find kind of abhorrent, right? So yeah, I mean, I thought that was, that was actually sort of where it started. The idea of thinking about people who disagree and then thinking like, one day, God, it would be really terrible if one of them ran for office.

Ah! It would be really terrible if one of them ran for office. That would be interesting, right? And then from there, thinking about other ways that we lose ourselves. But, you know, I mean, I think that's, That's the, that was really important to the book. Also, it's not, it's not like a book about campaigning or a book about politics.

It's a book about marriage. And so showing their day to day and sort of how they take care of each other and all the, you know, craziness and difficulty that comes with parenting a small child and trying to have two jobs and trying to do all the things like that was really important. And also, you know, is like, as you said, is, is.

Something we all, not everyone, but a lot of people go through and it's also just something I find really interesting, just like how just strange this phase of life is, right? Of like having, trying to have a career and a marriage and small children all at once. Like it's, we, you know, so many people do it, but it's a lot, it's a lot.

And you know, and so I thought that, you know, that's, that's obviously like a really rich area to explore. And then another thing of just sort of like, you know, Kids are so like, you know, I have two. They're absolutely wonderful. And they're ridiculous. Also, like children are so strange and weird, you know, like it's like, and I thought that was, and that was, you know, a kind of another thing to sort of bring into it as well is like, that's a big, you know, obviously a big part of your marriage is sort of navigating these things.

Strange little beings, that are wandering around your house demanding snacks, . So, you know, that was, that was part of it also. So, yeah, so it was trying to sort of balance, like the focus of the book is on that stuff, is on that day-to-day stuff and how they interact and there's this sort of politics sort of in the background.

And again, like not, it's not about, you know, how someone chooses to run their campaign or anything like that. It's basically, it's about what this decision does to his marriage. So there's that. And on the, you know, addiction front, I mean, there's, I would say, yeah, you're the first person to ask me about that.

This is a good question. You know, I think it's, that too is really universal, unfortunately, you know, so many people either deal with it or have it in their families. And, you know, it's, it's something that, Is also complicated because there's still a lot of judgment around it, even though we have so much, so many people have personal experiences with it.

But when you're on a public stage, it becomes something very different. And it's kind of one of the ways that like when people become sort of, you know, politics or not, like when people become public figures, like the way they're judged is different. Right. They become not real people anymore. They become just sort of a target for.

you know, where you can stick things you like or six things you don't. And it becomes very easy just to forget that they are also human. And you know, that was sort of one way of, of looking at that, of sort of the idea that like somebody in your family or a friend might have a history of addiction and you look at it one way and then some public figure does they have either that or they have some other, you know, thing that they've dealt with.

And, you know, we have a tendency to judge people. much more harshly or to not judge them at all, right? But like, whatever it is, there's not that sort of like nuance that we give to actual, you know, people we actually know in our real lives. And that's also a piece of the book where people kind of forget at one point that, you know, Like, the people that Gabe, Gabe knows at his work, his teacher, the people he works with just sort of forget that Ethan is real, basically, right?

And they just are thinking of him as, oh, that, that, that jerk who's running for office, right? And it's like, well, he's actually also his husband, right? He's a person. So I thought that was sort of, you know, an interesting, it wasn't something I set out to do, but it just sort of, it just sort of happened. 

Zibby: I like that, that moment at the copier.

Sort of towards the end. And he's like, no, actually, he is still my husband. And like, did you stop now? Like, we are still married. We are going to continue to be married. So please stop. Yeah. 

Elizabeth: Yeah. We all have those lovely people we work with. 

Zibby: And you don't have to answer this, but was there someone in your own life who struggled with something similar that informed the narrative in this storyline?

Elizabeth: Um, not so much. Not exactly. I mean, like, without getting into anyone's, like, personal things, I would say, like, broadly, yes, but nothing, but not, not, it was not very, it was not specific to this. It was sort of, like, I am broadly familiar with sort of how addiction plays out in, like, various, you know, with various people I've known, but I was not, I was not, like, You know, nothing from this book is, you know, there's a lot of like debut novelists who, I have a friend who has written one novel and she was saying that she then tried to write another one and she hated it because the first one was not actually a novel, it was a memoir.

But that is not this, like there is nobody in this book that is just like straight up pulled and the addiction is not straight up pulled. So it's, you know, bits and pieces are pulled from stuff I've seen, of course, but it's not kind of a wholesale lifting of anyone's experience. 

Zibby: Okay. And you also have, I know you have been at the New York Times forever, there is also another storyline in the book which questions ethics of what happens at papers, what you have a right to do, you know, the tension between your own allegiances.

And your work responsibilities and that delicate dance as well. Speak a little bit about that. 

Elizabeth: Sure. Um, let's see. So yeah, I've been at the New York Times for, oh God, 19 years. I've been a reporter there for 15 years. It's been a very long time. And like, I am a true believer in all of the, all of the stuff, right?

All of these ethics policies that I think, you know, You know, our, our interesting, especially, especially now, this is not quite what happens in the book, but just as a little bit of a tangent, uh, like we're not allowed to discuss our personal politics. Like, I can talk about what's happening in the book, but I can't tell you what I think because I'm not also not allowed to attend protests.

I'm not allowed to sign petitions, like none of that, because the idea is that like, if I, if I say what I think one way or another about, you know, some hot button issue, it makes it a lot harder for the people who are covering it, because then people can kind of go out and be like, well, this reporter thinks this.

No, I, I cover books. I don't cover said hot button issue, whatever it is. It's, you know, people see the institution as a mass, right? And not as individuals kind of doing separate things. And so it's harmful for the institution. So, uh, so anyway, that was a tangent, but I just find it interesting because in the public side, It's related.

Right? Thank you. Thank you. Great value. No problem. So, uh, in the book it's more sort of straightforward, like, Try not to give anything away, but it is, it's more about kind of what, like you're, you know, her personal allegiance is essentially to her brother versus her allegiance, so her belief in these ethics and sort of how she, what happens, what happens there.

And yeah, I don't know how to say anything else without giving it away. 

Zibby: That's fine. That's fine. Um, well, I just liked that knowing that that came from years of experience and that, that There was this extra layer of truth and people wonder, you know, what is it like to work at a newspaper and, you know, what is, you know, and this is one of the areas where there can be some big pitfalls or conflicts and I found that really interesting because you don't necessarily think about it.

Elizabeth: So it's very tricky for people who have, like, I'm lucky enough that I have never had deal with this, but it's very tricky for people who sort of, who, who cover something specific. And then if a family member kind of enters that world in any kind of big way, like that can be a real problem. Often people have to change their beats, like that kind of thing.

But, um, I've lost my train of thought. 

Zibby: My next question. No, I loved also that there are, there are multiple sets of LGBTQ relationships in the book, right? We have a gay couple, like past relationships for women and whatever. So. Tell me about writing that, because there are obviously many books in which there is one character, one couple, and then another, I don't know, like, just talk about that and writing it.

Elizabeth: Totally. Absolutely. So I'm gay, so that, you know, that's where I come from, and it just sort of never occurred to me to do it differently, is the thing, like, you know, I kind of started with these four characters in my head, and they just sort of popped out that way. I mean, I feel like it's, you know, there are You know, there are a lot of books about gay people at this point, but it's still like relatively a really small number, you know, like it's really like, it's not a lot.

And like our stories just still just aren't really out there in the same way, obviously there's a smaller number of us, all of that. And for years and, you know, centuries later, stories weren't told at all. So, you know, I don't like, it wasn't something I viewed as some responsibility. It was just sort of like, I was like, wow, this is who these people are.

And this is where this is sort of what I. It is how I see the world and it's something I think about a lot and the experience, the sort of experience of being gay right now is, is really interesting too. I mean, I'm 41 and the, the degree to which it's changed just in my lifetime is insane. You know, like when I was in high school, if someone told me I would have been able to get married, I would have laughed at them.

I'm like, no way. Right. And then things changed so quickly that I got married at 28. But also when I got married, it still wasn't legal in New York. Like that wasn't very long ago. Right. and. So the, there's still, you know, it's also new and the experience of being a gay parent, I think is also something that hasn't been written about a lot.

And it's, it's something I felt very like lucky to be in a position to do, right. And just sort of kind of just show people a little bit about what these people's lives are like and that kind of thing. But no, I mean, it was, it was great. And I feel like I've always, I've always wanted to, I've always wanted to write novels.

And I always wanted to write about. Like, you know, I've always thought of characters whenever I've come up with them, a lot of them are gay. And it's, you know, it's nice, it's lucky that it's at a point where it's not like, okay, so this is a gay book that goes in the gay section for the gay people, right?

Like that's no longer where we are. And that was also not long ago. And so that's wonderful that like, it's, it's a, it's just considered a book. 

Zibby: Yeah. Totally. 

Elizabeth: And I remember the other thing I was going to say before. Oh, great. Bring it in. Yes. One thing that sort of, yeah, I don't know, maybe it may or may not be interesting, but because I was talking about how, you know, we're talking about my experience of journalism right after I had said that no one is, nothing is based on anyone that I know, right?

And these things are both true. And the reason is that I wrote this book while working full time. with two small children and started it during COVID and I almost killed me, but it was also wonderful. But a lot of the decisions I made. Any decision I could make, that means I didn't have to do research. So I was like, someone is a workaholic.

Okay. They have to have my profession because I know a lot about my profession and I don't have time to look into anybody else's profession. So it would have either been mine or my wife's a doctor. So that would have either been a journalist or a doctor and a doctor didn't work quite the same way because it's a private function rather than a public function.

So, yeah, so that was sort of that. And it was, it's. It's fun to, and I'm writing another book now and it does require some research and I'm on book leave, um, for a couple of months and it's allowing me time to do said research and that's very fun. But I did not, I did not do much of that. I did, I did some research for the first book, but anything that I didn't have to, I was like, okay, decision made.

Zibby: That's fine. Yeah. So, they will live on my block, they will like the food I like, they will go to my kids schools with an A game. 

Elizabeth: I did have, I said, like, so a lot of it is in, so I, a lot of it is, it's in, I, both New, uh, Manhattan and New Jersey. And one of the best compliments I've gotten is somebody was like, where in New Jersey do you live?

And I was like, New Jersey. Yes! Like, I did it! All right! I did research that. I spent a lot of time in New Jersey though, so. 

Zibby: Yeah, yeah. And now you can write it off. 

Elizabeth: Hey! 

Zibby: By the way, how did you come up with the title and what were some other titles you were considering if there were any? 

Elizabeth: Ah, my wife came up with it, which was great.

We were driving around, um, we were visiting my in laws and we, um, live in Kentucky and we were driving around and we, there was a title on it, which I'm not going to say because I've grown to hate it. Oh. And it wasn't that bad, but I just, I love the new title and the old title. I'm like, eh, I don't like it so much.

And I was saying like, I want a new title, I need a new title, like, and I had her, she's read it. God knows how many times. She's a very nice woman. And after that, I think that was maybe the third time she'd read it or something or the, I forget, the second or third. And when she read it, I was like, the thing I want you to read for is a title.

Like this is what we need. And we were driving around and we were sort of talking about sort of things like guilt and sort of how and you know, how far sort of what we were talking about before with Ethan and Gabe, like kind of how far can you go to support somebody when you don't believe what they're doing, but you love them and you believe in them.

And then, you know, kind of similarly with some of the other plot lines. you know, how far can you go for yourself and what do you do for yourself even if it's not in the best interest of, say, the person to whom you are married, right? And, uh, you know, how do we kind of do that? make these, how, like, you know, how do we make these decisions and how do you live with them?

Right. And so that was sort of the idea. And she came up with, I forget exactly what the original, the original version was, but it was basically this. And I was like, ah, ah, ah, we got it, we got it, we got it, we're done, we're done. So that was. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh, I love that. Well, the fact that you are one of the people at the Times who covers the publishing industry, the fact that you've decided to even release a book is a vote of confidence in the industry at large.

So that's good. So that's good. Knowing all that you do. And I was just wondering. Looking at some of your old articles, by the way, Muckrack says you've published like 1, 275 articles. I don't know if that sounds about right, but wow, that's so many New York Times articles. You know, what inside information, so to speak, having analyzed and studied the industry, are you bringing to bear as you bring this book out and deciding even how to publish, where to publish, how to promote, All of that stuff.

Elizabeth: Hmm. I mean, yes, I would say, I would say kind of knowing, to your first point about the vote of confidence, like, true, definitely, like, people in this country buy books. Yay. Keep doing it, please. Um, but it is true that a lot of, um, a lot of people buy the same books and certain, you know, there are certain titles that sort of float to the top and, you know, make buckets of money and for everyone else is really hard to break through.

So I, I will admit that I am slightly terrified. But, um, and you know, I, and I knew all of this going in about how hard it was, but I wrote the book because I wanted to write it, you know, I wanted to write a book and I felt like as weird as it is, it sounds ridiculous that like my kids were, you know, they were tiny.

They were, Oh God, two and five or something. Three and five when I started, they were really little. And it was like a year into COVID. But at that point, I still didn't have commute, and my kids were back in school, and my wife is a doctor, so she's always gone to work. And I sort of looked around one day, and I was like, oh, I'm by myself.

And I'm not expected to go to the office. And I have an hour and a half when I would normally be on the train. So like, let's see, right? Let's see what happens. And that was kind of how it started. And I just wanted to try writing it. And then it just kind of, you know, You know, it worked. But when I was writing it, I was like, well, just playing the odds, probably no one is, no publisher is going to buy this.

Oh, they bought it. Oh, wow. Okay. Like, that was unexpected. How nice. So yeah, so I think it's a little nervous making, but also, you know, the process has also been really fun, I have to say, and like the people, the team I'm working with is wonderful. And I guess in terms of deciding kind of how it informs like decisions I would make, I would say.

One thing is, you know, I think you're, you are certainly very aware that the age when you sort of like wrote the book, gave it to your publisher and maybe sat for a few interviews, like that, that is done, right? You don't, you have to like hustle. You really have to hustle. And So I'm trying to do that. And I'm trying to like be a good teammate for my publisher and my publicist.

And I'm trying to do anything, anything I can, you know, I'm going to like, you know, if any, any book club that invites me, I will happily join your zoom FYI book clubs. You want to invite me? I will happily show up, you know, things like that. Right. And like, I talked to an author who, who did that and, you know, she was, um, and her book did very well.

And she was like, you know, it was one of many things who knows. But I enjoyed it. So, and if you're going to enjoy it, you might as well. And you know, that's a good way to put in the legwork, right? Like there are some people who are like going to do great on Tik TOK or whatever. I am not one of those people.

No, but I'm happy to come to a book club and talk to people who like to read. So like that's sort of, those are the decisions I'm trying to make is to like, there are so many, so many different things. You can do to, you know, to promote your book and you should do as many of them as you're going to enjoy.

And so that's sort of the approach I'm trying to take. 

Zibby: Oh, I love that you're getting this vantage point. It's going to inform all of the things you do and I can't wait to hear about your experience and hopefully then read something you write about it.

Elizabeth: Well, thank you. Yeah, it's definitely, it's, it's definitely given me a lot more insight into the industry because I'm like, I know it. Pretty well. I've been covering it for four and a half years, I guess, but I only know it from the outside and it is different, you know, and you try and talk to people all day, every day who work in the industry in various capacities, but it's not, you know, it's not the same.

Like the emotional appreciation is different now. So I think that's, that's definitely valuable. 

Zibby: Amazing. Well, congratulations, Liz. Really great book. You're a great writer. I mean, you know, you're a great journalist, but it doesn't always translate, but the dialogue and the scenes and just how, um, the pacing, just like all the things you look for in the book.

Like you did a really good job. I really liked it. Yeah. Congratulations. 

Elizabeth: Thank you so much. And so much for having me. 

Zibby: Of course. Okay. Good luck. 

Elizabeth: Thank you. 

Zibby: Okay. Bye Liz.