Zibby interviews New York Times bestselling author Eileen Goudge about ALL THEY NEED TO KNOW, a riveting, emotionally gripping novel about a woman who runs away from her abusive husband and reinvents herself in a peaceful California town—a tenuous sanctuary that brings her new friendships and romance. Eileen shares her own experience of being in an emotionally abusive relationship and the difficult transition of moving across the country with limited resources—all of which inspired this story. She also highlights her novel’s themes of overcoming trauma, the resilience it takes to start anew, and the importance of supportive friendships at all stages in life.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Eileen. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss All They Need to Know, a novel.

Congratulations. It's so fun to see you. 

Eileen: Oh, I'm so glad to be here. It's funny because usually I listen to your podcast when I'm on the treadmill at the gym, so I feel like I should be on a treadmill. 

Zibby: I mean, hop on. It's totally fine with me. I won't be upset. 

Eileen: Girl, you and I have gone some miles together.

Zibby: Thank you. That's great. I, I'm glad other people walk while I sit here and, you know, have my body just naturally spread out to fill my chair seat. So. 

Eileen: No, it's a great way to, to work out and tighten your muscles while you're expanding your mind, learning about books and other authors. That's, that's just a great way to, uh, to make it all come together.

Zibby: Well, now you've given me ideas about how I should partner with treadmill manufacturers. I'm going to write it down and see if I can get that going. Anyway, about your book, All They Need to Know, please tell listeners what it's about. 

Eileen: Well, it's about a woman who's escaping her abusive husband and she reinvents herself as a police sketch artist and uh, she draws lines to stop crimes as they say in the business and she finds that very empowering and then she is put to the ultimate test when she has to stop the biggest And scariest criminal of all, which is her husband.

Zibby: Wow. So where did this come from? And also, talk about sort of the ensemble cast. I feel like this is such a visual narrative. Like, I can see the whole thing. Like, it's like Steel Magnolias with, like, dirt roads or something. Like, I can see the house and the tattoos and the whole thing. So talk a little bit about that.

Eileen: Okay, well, she, she relocates from the East Coast to the West Coast, and she finds herself in this quaint California mountain town, and she's befriended by this group of women who call themselves the tattoo ladies, but they're really not, like, tattoo sideshow circus tattooed ladies there. They met through one of the members who is a tattoo artist and that's how they know each other.

And the whole thing was inspired by my friendships and how meaningful they've been in my life. And I belong to a group of women. We call ourselves the beach babes. We, uh, we're all writers and we call it the beach babes came from the fact that we would met at a beach house in California every year for seven years until pandemic.

And then things kind of got scattered after that, but we're still very tight. And we come from all over the country, one for Canada, we're from different walks of life, we're different ages, and we're all just like we get together like a kids at a slumber party. We're just like sisters and we hang out in our PJs and we share our powder room, confidences, a laugh and cry.

And it's just so meaningful. And I wanted to capture that in all they need to know. I wanted to shine a light on how empowering friendships are in our lives. 

Zibby: And I think it's nice that you highlight, it doesn't have to just be college girlfriends or something. You know, I mean, there's a lot written about the power of younger friendships and when you're together before you all are in marriages or this or that, but like the friends that you make at a particular stage in life later in life is so unique as well and deserves a lot of ink.

Eileen: Well, it's actually, it's interesting because a different Points in your life, friends have different meanings. And now that I'm older, I would be very sorry to only be friends with people my age, because they started to die off. So I feel so blessed that I have friends, my kids ages and, you know, but we're like sisters.

It's not like I'm the mom of the group and nobody really, Things about age, you know, we just hang out and have have fun and, you know, this way. My gosh, yes, I have younger people I can hang out with. And the only time we're reminded of our ages in the difference in ages is during our week at the beach. I was the only one who wasn't using tampons, maybe swapping sanitary products.

I'm like, I'm done with all that. So in my, in, in all they need to know care, Cairo, my heroine, you know, these women are also different ages and different, you know, different personalities. And, but I try to mix it up, you know, not stereotype like that. One of the older ladies in the group is in her sixties.

She's like the randiest and she's like the one, you know, dating, having a hot, you know, sex life with online dating. And, you know, it just, yeah, try to show that it's not stereotype people by age. And so I, I hopefully capture that in the book. 

Zibby: Tell me about the piece with domestic abuse and how obviously you have to be very careful writing about topics like this and tell me about the inspiration for that and how we are meant to sort of perceive all of that and what we should do with information at the end.

Eileen: Yes. Yes. You know, they say write what you know and I have always written what I know and I've been both blessed and cursed to have had a very interesting life. And as in the Chinese curse, may you live in interesting times. And at one point in my life, I was in an abusive relationship, and that's where I, what I drew from that experience in writing this book.

And like my character, I relocated from, at that point, from the West Coast to the East Coast. And it was like, I don't know, I guess you'd have to have experienced what I did to know what it's like to live in a small town where not only your ex, but his whole family who hates you are sort of circling like sharks.

It feels like times, like, you'll be able to stop at a red light and you'll. Look over at the driver in the car next to you and they're giving you the stink eye and your ex brother in law, you know, that kind of thing. So I really just had to get away. And also I didn't feel safe. So I moved to the East coast and I can't say I reinvented myself, but I sort of invented myself because at that point I was just a new writer and I was just starting to make some money.

I had no money. That's the other thing. I was totally broke. And, but I wrote my way out of poverty, so to speak. And that's kind of what my character does. She takes, she has just limited resources and she has to, she can't work in her profession because she's changed her name and living under a false identity.

Well, I didn't do that, but I basically, Turned my whole life upside down and then I moved to New York and things started happening and I got some book contracts and boy, I don't know. I was in really crazy or stupid because I would never recommend anyone to just like, Oh, Hey, I'm going to be a writer and make my fortune.

You know, you know how that goes. Most people's like, don't quit your day job. So I was very lucky in that respect. And so I, I really embraced the concept of reinvention, taking a bad thing that happened to you in life and turning it into something positive. And, and so, you know, in my novel, she, All you need, all they need to know that title comes from she's keeping secrets and she doesn't want her friends to know that she came from this abusive relationship because that's the other thing that I wanted to talk about is the shame, victim shame.

And I think those listening who've been there understand, you know, Others might not. They think, oh, what do you have to be ashamed about? You were the victim and this person was abusing you. And, and, but you know, there's a shame attached to, why didn't I leave sooner? Why did I stay? Why did I put up with it for 10 years in my case?

And You don't have a good answer. And so you feel embarrassed, you know, you don't want people to know that about yourself. And, um, so it's, that's the other theme of the novel was getting over that shame and getting, knowing that it wasn't her fault and that she was actually give herself credit for getting out.

And, and it doesn't matter when you got out there. It matters that you got out and that you found the strength to move on. And so that's really the other message of the book. And I hope others can take that. Anyone who's in that situation can take heart from that. 

Zibby: I mean, I'm so sorry. I didn't know you had been through that yourself and that's just terrible.

I'm sorry. 

Eileen: Well, you know what, like I said, both blessed and cursed because I was, I'm able to get in touch with those emotions. You know, what was it Nora Ephron said about life? It's all copy, you know, everything that happened to me in life. I, I, you know, I can tap into those experiences and write, I think, a richer, better book from that as a result.

Like, for instance, you know, previous. I was, um, in desperate restraints and I was a welfare mom and I thought, well, I got to do something, you know, to try to get out of the situation. That's when I started writing. That's what was the inspiration for my whole writing career. It's just, I got to get out of the situation.

And then I ended up in another bad situation. You know, it's interesting when my first novel came out, and this was in the eighties, Garden of Lies, and I had occasion to have a chat with an editor who was bemoaning the fact that, uh, one of her authors who was, they were, she had just launched, uh, one of her big book and was marketing it and doing publicity.

She goes, Oh, the poor woman, she lives in the suburbs. You know, she's married to the same guy for her high school sweetheart, and she's just got this perfect life, and there's nothing for her to talk about on talk shows. I'm like, hey, book me on your show. Well for a mom to millionaire, you know, it was sort of ironic, you know what I mean?

Zibby: Wow. Well, I don't want you to have to dwell in those times, but I am curious. When you say it was abusive for 10 years and then you got out, can you give us just a little more? Like, what, was it physical? Like, did something happen? Did, was it, how did, when did you know it would be, you know, I think that's the other thing when you read books or all of this, like, the signs were there, but when did it start and did it progress slowly?

Like, You know, the rabbit with the water getting turned up or the frog analogy, like how did and how did you get the strength to leave? What was the tipping point? 

Eileen: Well, it's interesting to getting back to what you're saying for about when did I know I actually knew before I married him, which, uh, I think it was like, I, having been a welfare mom, I was so kind of beaten down and felt so.

unworthy, I guess. And I, I guess I just didn't feel like I deserve better. And also I was young enough to think I could change him. And I think that's the biggest falsehood tell ourselves is, you know what? You ain't changing nobody. If you marry what you're marrying is what you get, you know? And, uh, I didn't know that at the time.

And, He was never physically abusive in the sense that he didn't hit me, but he would be, you know, get into these rages and you'd be screaming at you and next thing you know, a fist flies back an inch from your face and puts a hole in the wall behind you. That kind of thing where you're constantly afraid.

And, you know, he was constantly having these drunken rages and it was interesting because, you know, I thought I was hope I used to pray. You know, that's the other thing. If you're an abusive relationship, you hope the neighbors don't know. And, you know, I didn't know how much they were aware of. Um, but after I finally got rid of him, got him to leave, I don't know how I did that but through hooker by crook they say and this lady from across the street who had never really had much to do with her she was kind of a older woman and she didn't come out of the house there very often she came out of her house and walked across the street which was kind of a big deal because like I said she had some mobility issues she said listen honey I'm with you if you need anyone to testify in court I've seen it all and then I realized of course the neighbor knew everything I wasn't hiding anything from anyone.

Just, yeah. 

Zibby: Oh my goodness. So how did you get out? I know you said by hook or by crook, but, but really, because some, so many people are stuck. 

Eileen: Well, it's interesting. I, I just, tried to think of a way and I finally what the impetus was a close writing friend of mine had a similar situation and then she finally got rid of her husband she got he was also a drunken you know guy who's You know, similar to mine, but I don't think he was like angry, but she finally got rid of him.

And I was so jealous. I was like, now I have no one like in the trenches with me. And then I realized, Oh my God, I'm alone. I got to just, I got to do this. I got to also for the sake of my kids. I had two young children at the time. And so I, somehow convinced him that the only chance our marriage had was if he moved out and then, you know, we could see if we could work it out, you know, just whatever wiles I had to use to get him out.

And then once he was out, you know, I thought locking the doors would do it, but then he broke in. So I had to change locks. That's when I realized I really just have to move and, uh, get out of this town. And that's What led me to New York and my whole career in New York, actually. Now I'm back to my roots.

I'm living in California again, my husband, Sandy, and I, my adorable husband, who's like the Prince that came at the end of all the earlier Cinderella story and anyway, so we're living in Sacramento and, uh, looking out at my. fruit trees in the backyard. So there was a happy ending to my story. 

Zibby: Of course, Sandy Kenyon is like the nicest guy ever friends to everyone in the world.

I can't imagine him hurting a fly. Um, and he adores you. Oh my gosh. I mean, you know, every time you just,.. 

Eileen: He's actually, when I met him, I was like, I'm never getting married again. No, this is just like, I, I'm just not cut out for this and, you know, obviously my pickers broke and all that. And he said something that resonated with me.

He said, you know, you've been with men who made your life more difficult. And I'm the guy who's gonna make it easier and I'm like, oh, sure, right,.. Ha ha. I didn't believe him because I've never had that experience. I've only ever had the guys who were obstructionist or man babies or, you know, you name it.

And here's this, like, real man who was like. A real friend and help me and so that was the only thing I tapped into in writing all they need to know Kyra falls in love where she tries not to in the, in the early stages of their relationship with her landlord, who's, um, very, you know, attractive, obviously, and she's attracted to him, but she doesn't feel like she's ready.

You know, she can't she's been burned and she doesn't think like I thought she thought her picker was broken that nothing good could come of this and, but he's like, I based him on Sandy, you know, cause he's there, he's studying, he's helping her and, you know, finally she realizes, Hey, maybe this could work.

And so, yeah, her, her story, I won't, I shouldn't give away. I'm being a spoiler here. I think all of my stories. and have a satisfying ending, I should say. And the other thing I want to say is that my mantra in life is kind of just what, it served me well, but when I'm in a tough situation or I'm faced with a challenge, I say to myself, you can do hard things.

And that's the one thing my, all of the characters, the heroines in all my books have in common, they do hard things. Even when they feel like they can't, even when they feel like they're just, it's too much for them to overcome an obstacle, you know, they do hard things. 

Zibby: You need to have Doyle like blurb your book or something.

Eileen: All do hard things. Just say that to yourself and believe it because it, you know, it's true. You can do more than you think you can. 

Zibby: Especially you, racing away, saving yourself with your young children to come to New York to be a writer and then actually doing it and being a lifelong career writer with so many books.

I mean, it's, um, it's astounding. It's a story in and of itself, right? I mean, how many books have you written or ghostwritten or whatever? 

Eileen: You'll get a kick out of this. So when I first moved to New York, I couldn't afford to live in Manhattan. I was living off the proceeds from my, the teen romance as I was writing.

I was one of the original writers of Sweet Valley High, the series, the teen series. So I ended up, somebody said, well, move, you know, there are affordable proper, uh, rentals in Brooklyn and check the Jewish press. And so I checked and I thought, boy, there's sure a lot. I found something in Midwood, eventually, which is in the heart of Brooklyn, and I thought, boy, this Realtor, Shomer Chavez, certainly has a lot of listings.

And Shomer Shabbos, for those of you who aren't Jewish and don't speak Yiddish, means, you know, Sabbath observers only. And I didn't know that. I thought it was the name of the realtor. 

So I ended up flying for this. It was like the, a walk up in a two family house and the landlady and her husband were, um, He was a rabbi and she was, you know, a very orthodox woman with a, she wore a traditional marriage wig and everything.

And she said, oh gosh, you know, you seem so nice, but we don't really rent to like, she didn't say non Jews, but she said people who don't celebrate, you know, Sabbath, uh, don't keep, you know, observe the Sabbath. And so I was like, oh, you know, I was trying not to say that. I'm throwing myself over Rosie, but she said, well, come on in.

It's a cold day. Have a cup of tea. So we sat in her kitchen, talked at the end. She said, you know, I never do this and we don't do this in general in our community, but I really like you and your kids are the same age as my kids. I think it'd be. So she rented me the apartment and that was, we became like best friends.

And that's the other thing I was saying goes back to what I was saying earlier is I just, it's so important to me to have not just friends from, you know, different ages, but diverse friends, you know, I'm just so fascinated by other cultures and I probably know more about kosher. Keeping kosher than any non Jew that you've ever met, just from hanging out in my friend Fabie's kitchen.

Zibby: Wow. What a story. Well, Eileen, I'm so excited for you. I, the story is so hopeful. It's funny. It's immersive. It, reads like a movie. It's gonna be great. I mean, I'm just so excited for you and your reinvention story and how it just keeps ticking on and you're happy ending and all of it. It's just very inspiring. 

Eileen: I hope other readers can take hope from it.

I know it's a novel mainly I want people to be entertained, but I do also you know, that would be a nice thing to for readers to take hope from it. 

Zibby: I'm sure they will. 

A hundred percent. 

Thank you so much, Eileen. Thanks for coming on. 

Eileen: My pleasure. Bye bye. 

Zibby: Okay. Bye.