Zibby chats with New York Times bestselling author Marie Benedict and Courtney Sheinmel about THE SECRETS OF LOVELACE ACADEMY, a charming middle-grade novel about a young girl who is plucked from a London orphanage to attend a prestigious boarding school. The duo (set up by their literary agent) describe how they collaborated on this historical adventure where bright girls gain access to the elite education previously reserved for boys, inspired by Mileva Einstein, Albert Einstein’s brilliant but overlooked first wife. They delve into themes of gender equity, lost histories, and how far we’ve come—and haven’t—when it comes to opportunities for women and girls. They also share how they developed a unified voice and hint at future books in the series!

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome back to Marie Benedict and to Courtney Sheinmel, who I have both been parts of other projects that I've featured on the show from On Being Jewish Now to many of books of Marie's. Anyway, it's so great that the two of you have teamed up. I was so excited when I saw your names together on a book, The Secrets of Lovelace Academy.

Welcome, first of all. 

Marie: Thank you. 

Zibby: Thank you. It's a joy. And how, how did you two team up? 

Courtney: Well, we were set up by our agent who is a matchmaker of sorts, and she, I, she had long been sending me books of Marie's because I loved them. And then she called one day, and I think she spoke to Marie first before she spoke to me.

I don't know, but she called me and said, I have, I, there's someone like, I want you to meet. I think you guys can do something together. So it was, it was a setup. 

Marie: It was, it was kind of like a blind date. An author. 

Courtney: Yeah. It was a great blind date, you know,.. 

Marie: A really good blind date. Yeah. 

Zibby: Was this a Zoom date or you went for coffee?

What happened? 

Courtney: It was Zoom, or, I don't remember it was Zoom or on the phone, but we don't live in the same city. 

Marie: Yeah. 

Courtney: So it was not, uh, it was not in person. 

Marie: It was a virtual, 

Courtney: Yeah, we started dating virtually first. 

Marie: Yes. Okay. And then in person, and I mean, Laura, you know, she saw, you know, Laura, you know, I know, you know Laura Zibby, you know, she, she had had in her mind that, you know, obviously she knows both of us, knows her work ex intimately, maybe all too well.

And she saw just the two of us as a great working relationship, but then also the potential, um, for us to do something really fun. And, um, I had been asked many times by readers if I would ever adapt any of my books for younger audiences. And I really struggled with that idea because, you know, I'm not an expert in the, in the, the world of younger readers like Courtney is, but I knew that younger readers definitely didn't wanna read about women in their thirties and forties, which is generally the age, not always. Sometimes I have younger re you know, younger heroines, but they, it's over a period of time, it's not their jam. And Courtney and I just started talking and got into our heads that maybe we would do something with some of some, or one of my women.

Courtney: We had a lot of bad ideas to start. 

Marie: A lot, a lot of time travel, Zibby.

Courtney: A lot of time travel like twins and good. 

Marie: Not very good. Yeah. But then I think like Lovelace Kind, Lovelace Academy kind of. Came out on its own as sort of a, you know, for people who haven't read the book or don't know what it's about, Lovelace Academy is this, it's the quintessential kind of English boarding school that you think of when you think of like an Eaton or any of these classic institutions.

But for girls. At a time period when girls were completely let out of the educational mix. I mean, formal education really wasn't even really a thing, um, until pretty recently and for girls, if you were lucky enough to get educated, it was just pretty much about what would service your family. Or service if you were lucky enough to be wealthy, service you as a hostess and as a, you know, a hostess in a home situation.

So, I don't know, we just started thinking what if, right? What if there was a place where bright girls could actually get a real education? Something like what young men were starting to get at a place like Eaton, don't you think? 

Courtney: And we knew which heroine that Marie has written about that we wanted to start with in terms of who would be, wouldn't be the center of our book, but would be somebody that would be in our book. Um, and that was Melva Einstein, who was Albert Einstein's first wife, um, who is, who was a brilliant, brilliant scientist in on her own and has been lost to history, although Marie has written extensively about her.

So she is not as lost to history as she was. Um, there is an incredible novel, the other Einstein that really does celebrate male and tell her story. But you know, there, there is a school of thought, a very, you know, deep and credentialed school of thought that she contributed to her husband's work in really significant ways, and it tracks with what her background was and her education level and how brilliant she was.

And, and she was a mathematician and she never got any credit. As women often still don't, but specifically didn't. In her time. So we knew she wanted, we wanted her to be in, in our story. We weren't sure who our main character was for a while, but we knew that she would be meeting up with Malea. 

Zibby: I feel like I'm in my Einstein era because I'm also, I have yearbook of course, and then I was reading a couple weeks ago, my son started reading Stewart Gibbs'.

Uh, Charlie Thorn books. Have you ever read any of those about, and the last equation, which starts on Einstein's deathbed and how he like puts his equations in the fire. It's for like middle grade. You guys should read it. You should actually do an event with Stewart Gibbs. 

Courtney: Yeah, I, I know Sue well, because we shared a babysitter, his nanny for his kids moved to New York and was my son's first nanny.

So, oh, whole world. It's a very small world, but I, but I have a 5-year-old, so we haven't quite gotten to Stew's books yet, but I actually have a few on the shelf waiting for him. 

Zibby: This is like past the, the, the other ones, this is past the spice. It is a little bit older. They're longer. 

Marie: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: Anyway, I don't mean to go off on it, but anyway, 

Marie: Know I love this book, but I have two boys and we have spent quite a lot, quite a lot of time.

For sure. 

Zibby: Um, I feel like Sarah, Sarah Lelinski introduced me to him and to Laura, your agent, which is how I feel like this all comes together anyway, 

Courtney: Well, Sarah introduced, who's my, one of my closest friends, introduced me to my agent as well. Yeah. 

Marie: Talk about matchmaking. 

Courtney: Yeah. 

Marie: Here, I mean that's like, that's a crazy full circle there.

Zibby: I might, maybe I shouldn't even admit this, but I sent my original proposal for moms Don't Have Time to read books, the book to Laura, and she turned me down and was not my agent. 

Marie: Come on. She did not. 

Zibby: She did. I did. Yeah. I think now she feels bad. Little bit 

Courtney: Probably. 

Zibby: No, I'm kidding. 

Courtney: Regret that one. 

Zibby: I mean, I think, I think 

Courtney: We love you, Laura.

Zibby: We have like a wonderful relationship. I shouldn't say she feels bad. She doesn't feel bad. I just mean like, 

Marie: She probably does. 

Zibby: We're now like friends, you know, we, we, she's been so supportive in so many other ways and to her credit, the book was not a good idea at that time anyway, so, but she was very helpful in the beginning, so I have a lot of gratitude to her.

Marie: That's, I mean, to me that would regret if I were Laura jail, but anyway, that's neither here. 

Zibby: No, no, no. Anyway, so back to the book. So Melaina is making a cameo. That's all you knew at the beginning. 

Marie: That's right. 

Courtney: I knew she'd be in it in some capacity. Yes. 

Zibby: And then 

Courtney: I think, I think at the beginning we thought she would be a larger part.

Marie: Mm-hmm. 

Courtney: Then as we realized, you know, the audience we were writing for, and as Marie was saying before, you know, not wanting to center a story for middle grade readers on someone in her thirties, even though I frankly think women in their thirties, forties, fifties are the most interesting, interesting people there are.

Um, you don't necessarily realize that when you're 10 years old. 

Marie: No. So not interesting. 

Zibby: 10 year olds just wanna read about like 12 year olds. 

Courtney: Right. So we,.. 

Marie: The next stage.. 

Courtney: And the other thing, we felt like we knew that Malva came to the table with a lot of struggle and we knew that whoever our main character was, needed to have a story of her own that would make you root for her, but was different from the struggles.

So we were, um, working on what that story could be and how. This girl who we named Laney could, why she would be at Lovelace Academy and which is a very, a school for very privileged people and how she ended up there and what her, her journey was. 

Marie: It was an interesting way to take a look at middle school age girls in a different time period so that younger readers could see in some ways how far we've come, not in always, and then give them an opportunity to intersect with a historical woman that that really did pull herself up by her bootstraps and do incredible things, but whose stories we don't know, and to leave the door open.

For other Lovelace Academy girls who come down the pike to intersect with the stories of other historical women and kind of explore the evolution of girls' education, bright young girls who are trying to achieve in a ti in different time periods of time, periods that are definitely not encouraging of that and struggling with things that, that girls today are still struggling with.

You know, I mean, very relatable things. 

Courtney: One of the things that we hope readers take from it too is, is the idea of looking at a story like this that's set in 1905 and how far we've come and also how far we have not come. 

Marie: Yeah. 

Courtney: And um, there are a lot of things that in the story that are not, you know, not just about, you know, middle school politics, but about the world at large and where women fit in in the world and girls fit in, in the world at large that have not changed.

To the extent that we believe they should. 

Marie: Right. 

Zibby: So as part of the mission of the se, this sounds like it's gonna be a series now, which is brilliant. Of course. I should, you know, is part of the mission empowering today's girls to continue sort of fighting for change and being amazing? 

Courtney: Yeah. I mean, not to be like super heavy handed or preachy about it, but certainly we hope that is what you take away from it after you read it, that there's more work to be done. The work continues with all of us. Um, and one of the things that I think was interesting for us in terms of coming to the story was when we started out and we had in one in the time travel era of thinking about this book.

Um, and we were, and we're both mothers of sons and we were like, oh, you know, it'll be a boy and a girl, and they go help. They go back in their time machine and help male Einstein. And it took us a moment to realize we didn't need a boy main character for the story to reach our sons and other boys and to be an important story and an appealing story to our boys and other boys.

And I think that was like a big you know, to borrow a phrase from Oprah, aha moment for us when we're like, oh wait, they can read about Laney and just Laney and Malva and it's still a valuable story, 

Marie: Right 

Courtney: Even if they're boys. And uh, and so that was like part of our journey as well. And seeing like, and seeing how we need to like, sort of change the world and also change our approach to story.

Zibby: Hmm. 

Marie: You learn so much about yourself as you're crafting, you know, crafting these worlds and your own preconceptions about what is an appealing story, which should be an appealing story, um, how to reach people. But yeah, as Courtney said, it's not meant to be heavy handed. It's, it's historical adventure is really what it is that, that has some of these layers in it.

But that hopefully there are some takeaways and I think. You know, we, now, I'm not saying we're all the same age 'cause I'm older than you ladies, but you know, we grew up in an era when, when things were changing and I think a lot of younger kids today are that much more removed from that. And I think getting to look at the past through the lens of somebody who's more closer in age to them, to actually see the scope of those changes is really important.

Because, you know, we live in a time when things. I mean, you know, could return to where they were. And it's important for us to understand, um, from once we came so we don't head back that direction. 

Zibby: So true. Oh my gosh. So how did you two write this together? I have never written with anyone else, and I am endlessly fascinated with how this process works.

How did you do it? How did you make sure you had the same voice and like, how did, how did you do it? 

Courtney: Well, we, nothing pressure, 

Marie: but you cannot not Courtney on that. Thank you very much. 'cause she has, she's the math. 

Courtney: I've done it before. So this was not my first co-writing rodeo, but I feel like if you're co-writing, one of the most important things is like you can't be too in love with any of your own sentences.

That if you're co-writer writes over them or you know, gets rid of them completely, you, you can't. It can't be the thing that you're too attached to, but we would write and pass back and forth. And so it became not my voice and not Marie's voice, but a voice that was like a, you know, almost a third person who was in the room with us.

And, uh, and, and therefore could be pretty, it could be uniform throughout the book. And we didn't really take anything personally or at least, you know, didn't tell each other if we were taking anything personally, if. I really got upset when you changed that, but I, I think that's like sort of the deal you make when you get into it as a co-author that you're okay with someone changing your work.

'cause it's not your work, it's your work together. So it's, it's a different animal entirely. 

Marie: I, I think too, knowing that you start out with the same goals, the same desire to, to tell the best story that you can, to honor the historical women and the, and the characters you're creating. You have to surrender your ego, like Courtney said, like you can't be in love too much, in love with any part of it, but you know, knowing how.

That Courtney had the same exact goals as me. That, you know, we really wanted to create a world that that could really inspire and engage readers and, and, and very, very much love the same themes. It gives you that sense of. I, I'm not in love with my sentence because you probably know what a better sentence is, right?

Or it's not just as Courtney said, just my work or your work. It's our work together. But I will say Courtney is the master here. I mean, I, this is not my. Time period. These are not my, um, well, not my time period. 

Courtney: These are, these are not, well, this is No, no, no, no, no. This is my time period is an encyclopedia.

If you wanna know anything about anything in history or any person or what they were wearing in, I don't know, Switzerland and. 1804, she will tell you like she knows everything. 

Marie: It is a problem. I mean, I do harbor a lot of arcane facts in my head and it was so fun to be able to pull them out and be like, oh, you wanna know how they would go to the bathroom?

Absolutely. I know how that happens. 

Courtney: Yeah. I was just like, I would write like a part of a chapter and then leave these like blank spaces and like in parentheses, right? Like. You know, fill in whatever makes sense here. And then it would come back with just like, first of all, all of my sentences would be vastly improved, but then come back with details that in, I could have spent a month researching and I never would have gotten that kind of detail and authenticity.

So I highly recommend if you're doing historical fiction to write a book with Marie Benedict because there's kind of no other way to do it. 

Marie: You are too kind. Thank you. But, and it, it's wonderful to employ all that arcane knowledge in a, a variety of ways. I mean, it is funny you, but you file away in there, you know.

Zibby: I know, I, I feel like I have like some crazy memory now for book covers or book characters or whatever. But then ask me about something totally that I should remember, either historically or my own life or, and it's gone. It's like why I, I ran outta room for all these other things, like I pushed it out.

The files are overstuffed. 

Marie: You do have to do pruning from time to time. I do think, you know, bathroom habits of the 18 and 19 hundreds might be something that I could. I feel like it's for that now. 

Zibby: You put 'em, now put 'em to use, you know, so it's fine. It's fine. 

Marie: They're done. They're done. 

Zibby: So which historical characters are you toying with, including in future books?

Marie: We haven't said yet. We haven't said, I don't know if we're allowed to say. I I would. Could we say scientists? 

Zibby: Okay. Scientists. 

Courtney: I mean, I think.. 

Zibby: I'd leave it at that if you want. 

Courtney: You know, you can, if you looked at Marie's catalog, adult work. 

Zibby: We would get some,.. 

Courtney: There's some supreme hints. 

Zibby: Okay. Okay. 

Marie: When you think about Lovelace Academy.. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm.

Marie: And the kinds of girls that go there, the sorts of brilliance they have and how their world might intersect with another 'cause. There's a secret in Lovelace Academy 'cause it's not just a school, it's also a place where women. Adult women who have a variety of accomplishments are being fostered and supported and encouraged.

So yeah, let's, we could leave it at that maybe. 

Zibby: Yeah, that's good. 

Marie: There's lots of opportunities though, for the, for the Lovelace girls to, to intersect and bound out into the world. 

Zibby: So for parents who are, you know, have kids who are interested or this age range or whatever, who is the right type of reader for this book?

Like, what should they know when they're like this book versus the other ones? And I don't know, are kids reading fantasy, like, what should I get them? Or graphic novels, like it's, it can feel overwhelming. So what's the, what's the sweet spot for the book? 

Courtney: Well, it's not a graphic novel, and it's not a fantasy, but it is like it is.

Adventure story. It is. I think it's a really ambitious, big story about a young girl's journey to figuring out where she comes from and where she's going, and her place in the world coming from tragedy and, and writing her own story and understanding where you come from doesn't define who you are. So I think that, and that also you can, and that like, and that you can make your mark and making your mark on the world and being there for other people in a lot of ways is, is how we define ourselves.

You know, we are. Not islands. We are, you know, we're, we're a species that is very community oriented. I think we are when we are at our best. And so I would say like, you know, the reader for this book, you know, if, if all you wanna do is read, if you're a reader who loves graphic novels, this is probably not your story, but you're someone who's, who's interested in in story and finding yourself in books. This, you know, I, I, I hope you pick this one up. 

Zibby: That's beautiful. 

Marie: That's how you put that, Courtney. My gosh. 

Zibby: That's good. 

Marie: That up. It's also, like she said, an adventure and not just an interior adventure. It's actually like a real adventure. 

Courtney: Oh, there's, yeah, there's planes. Well, there's not planes, there's, there's trains, there's ships, there's horse-drawn carriages.

Marie: There's all sorts of calamities along the way, and there's a lot of characters. It's, it's not, as Courtney said. Nothing happens in isolation. You know, we are all part of a community and one action kind of ripples out into all sorts of ways you might not anticipate. And Lainey not only journeys physically across Europe in, in circumstances that are really quite dangerous for a young girl at that time, but she's also journeying in terms of who she's meeting, who she's encountering, and then taking all of that and, and undergoing this internal journey that.

I think at the time period is part of the adventure, you know, for the reader to take them someplace almost like you do in a fantasy novel, you're going someplace you've never been. History's a little bit like that. I mean it is someplace you've never been for sure, and it is different, but it is also funny and engaging.

It's not heavy handed in the slightest and it was just a joy to write. And Courtney is like so joyful to write with. I mean, and I think that really comes through on the page. 

Zibby: Amazing. Well, I'm so excited that the, the two of you teamed up and put this into the world and that you are some of the people most inspirational to today's rising women.

I mean, it's pretty awesome. I could think of nobody better, so there you go. Thank you. Uh, thanks for all your work and entertainment and inspiration. 

Marie: Thank you so much.. 

Courtney: Having us and thanks for being you Zibby. 

Marie: We really. I really appreciate you so much. 

Zibby: Oh, thank you. 

Courtney: Appreciate you. 

Zibby: Okay. 

Marie: Have a great day.

Zibby: Take care. Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye to see you. Bye.