British novelist Clare Pooley joins Zibby to discuss HOW TO AGE DISGRACEFULLY, an utterly hysterical, quirky, and reassuringly wise novel that centers around Lydia, a menopausal woman and empty-nester who is lonely and suspects her husband is having an affair… so she decides to help out at a senior citizen social club. She finds herself surrounded by very eclectic and mischievous seniors who, after an accident, must band together to save their community hall. Clare delves into her journey with sobriety and breast cancer and shares how an anonymous blog eventually led to a successful writing career. She also shares her perspectives on aging, highlighting the power of living every moment to the fullest, regardless of age.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Claire. Thank you so much for coming on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books to discuss how to age disgracefully.

Congratulations. 

Clare: Oh, thank you. I'm delighted to be here. Thank you for asking me. 

Zibby: Oh, it's my pleasure. I'm always thinking about how to age. Maybe not totally disgracefully, but, you know, I'm not sure I'm going to be at Pasha, but maybe, you never know, in Ibiza. Ibiza. Tell listeners what your book is about, please.

Clare: Oh, well, the story sort of revolves around a lady who's about the same age as me. She's called Lydia. She's menopausal. Her, her two, uh, daughters have left home and gone to university and she thinks her husband is having an affair. So, so she's not terribly happy and she takes this job from the local council working as a coordinator for this new senior citizen social and she imagines that her day is going to be filled with older people playing bingo or knitting or doing jigsaws, and needless to say, it doesn't turn out like that at all.

The people who turn up for her social club are rather eclectic, very badly behaved, and they all have very interesting backstories that we gradually discover. Anyway, to cut a long story short, right at the very beginning, a terrible accident happens and the council threatened to close the, the hall that the social center, um, uses.

So they join together with the nursery next door and try and save to save their hall and all sorts of rather hilarious hijinks in Sue . Yes, they do.

Zibby: So I read, after I read the book, I went and then I saw the author's note, which explained how you started with the prologue and then had to figure out who to make all the characters, but that the idea of the minibusters started first with how everybody would be confessing their, their crimes and all of that.

And then you delved into who the characters were, which I found fascinating in terms of process because I would have assumed you would start sort of with the characters. Well, anyway, just tell me about how this whole thing came to be and how you. Were able to even just like interweave all of their stories and get to the end.

It seems like a a feat. 

Clare: Yeah, I mean it's I I never understand those authors who are able to plot everything in advance you know and I know people who have these incredible whiteboards and they they detail exactly what's going to happen in every chapter and everything and and I just I'm, i'm in awe. I mean, I just can't do that because I sort of have to you get to know my characters really well before I know exactly what they're going to do and how they're going to react and how they're going to interact and all of that sort of stuff.

So when I start a story, I have a beginning and I have an end. Funny enough, I always know what the end is, even if sometimes it changes a bit, but I know roughly where I'm going. And I have a few key scenes in my head and then I just start writing and hope it all starts coming together and generally what happens is initially it feels really awkward and really wooden.

And then what you hope is that at some point this sort of magic thing happens where your characters just start improvising and doing their own thing and then you're just writing down what they're doing and, and that's really what happened here. So I had this scene in my head, which became the prologue.

And I started with that, which is, is this group of, um, of, uh, senior citizens and young children being pulled over in a minibus on the motorway by policemen. And all of them start think that it's them that the policeman is looking for. And they all start confessing to various crimes. And then we have to work out.

what crimes have been committed by whom. So that, that's sort of how I work, which is a little bit haphazard, but luckily it all seems to come together by the end. 

Zibby: Well, I love how you sort of intersperse the point of view of different characters. And we get to know Lydia, but also Daphne and Art and Ziggy and how everybody's story, you know, ends up overlapping in different ways.

Art starts out, you know, really wanting to continue to be an actor and his agent is having none of it. And, and, and he's like, why would it have to end? Like, and I think that's the theme throughout the whole book is sort of why would Why does it end? Like why does anything have to end when none of us feel any older than when we were younger?

And our bodies are like changing, but we're not necessarily changing so much, and our interests aren't necessarily changing so much, and what, what, where do all these expectations of of, of aging in our culture come from? And why can we not just do more stuff? Right? 

Clare: Yeah, exactly. And, you know, I, I'm 55 now.

I don't feel any different from the way I felt when I was 35. And I don't imagine I'm going to feel any different when I'm 75. And I was just getting a bit fed up with reading about older characters in literature who always had sort of minor parts and, and they were generally seen as rather sad, old, depressed.

And I thought, actually, I want to read a book about older characters who are really bossing it and ones who are showing the younger generation how to really live life rather than vice versa. So yeah, so that was quite important to me and it was, it was great fun to write, to be honest. 

Zibby: I bet. And I, I read that you were empty nesting and sort of feeling, you know, that frustration yourself and many of your peers and, you know, not, not to say, you know, I'm 47.

So I'm, I'm right behind you. I'm almost 48. Oh my gosh. So, and I know there's like a scene where she's like, I'm 53 and like, when Lydia's just like, oh my gosh, the rest of my life and like, what do we do with these ages? Like, what do we do with these numbers and what does it even mean? And how do we, you know, the panic that comes with it.

Clare: Yeah, and, you know, the truth is it shouldn't have to mean anything, you know, and I, you know, I didn't want to retire. I mean, I'm lucky I do a job that I love, but I don't ever want to stop. So I have huge sympathy with art who, you know, whose career as an actor has never really taken off in the first place if you don't want to retire.

So, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I, I think 70 is the new 50 is the new 30. 

Zibby: I love that. I know occasionally, my dad says, he'll look in the mirror and be like, who is that old guy? You know? 

Clare: I look in the mirror and I think, why is my mother here? 

Zibby: Yeah. That's really funny. I know. I, I turn into my mother more every day.

It's, it's, I can't believe it. Except now she's doing better stuff with her aging than I am. So she, I think she actually looks younger than me, but we all make our different decisions. Tell me a little more. I have to say, I have not read The Sober Diaries and I really, really want to now that I know about it and I've sort of fallen in love with how you write and your personality and voice on the page and all of that.

And I know you've gone through a lot yourself and you've been sober for, what, nine years now? Eleven years? What is it? Yeah, nearly ten years next year. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Congratulations. And that combined with, um, breast cancer and writing about it and blogging. Tell me, tell me about all that. What was your life like before you started the blog?

And then like, how has everything changed? 

Clare: Okay, well, so I have to take you back to 2015, which was the year I quit drinking and, uh, basically I was a mom with three young kids. And I had stopped work for a while after my, my third child was born. And I thought, you know, I'm just, and I've had a really full on job in advertising for 20 years.

And I thought it'd be really great to spend more time at home with my kids just for a while. And it was great, you know, and I was very privileged to be able to do that, but it was also really hard work and I found that instead of drinking less, I started drinking more. And there was this whole mum wine culture and it was all about me time and sort of feeling grown up at the end of the day.

And, and I got to the point where my wine habit just got more and more out of control. And I was drinking 10 bottles of wine a week, which was huge, way more than the government guidelines. So as a result, I was anxious all the time. I was an insomniac. I, my whole life was sort of stuck in a rut and I felt like I was just being a really bad mom and a really bad example to my kids, you know, so.

Anyway, I realized I had to quit. I didn't want to tell anyone because I was so ashamed about the whole thing that I didn't want to talk to my doctor or my family or my friends or alcoholics, anonymous, you know, anybody. But I had to do something by way of therapy. So I did what I had done as a teenager when I needed to work stuff out and I started writing.

But instead of writing a traditional diary, I thought, okay, this is 2015. People don't write traditional diaries. They write blogs. So I sort of Googled how do I start a blog and I set up this anonymous blog called Mummy was a secret drinker and I wrote in it every single day about what was going on in my head and it was because it was anonymous it was brutally honest and I really didn't think anyone would find it because I wasn't publicizing it but it went viral and people all over the world started reading this blog and saying yeah I feel like that too and I do the same thing it was a lot of you.

And then I wrote it with a lot of humor. I mean, it's a black comedy effectively. And then eight months after I started writing this blog, I got breast cancer. So I started writing about that and after a year, more and more people started saying you should publish this as a book and I ended up with a publishing deal with Hachette.

And, uh, and I published a book called The Sober Diaries based on that blog in the beginning of 2018. So, so yeah, over six years ago now, but you know, I still get messages from people every single day who've read that book and, and say it's helped them. So, you know, it was a great thing to do and by this stage, writing was my new addiction.

So I switched to, uh, fiction and the rest as they say is, is history. 

Zibby: Wow. When did you decide to sort of come out and not be anonymous anymore? And what was that like? Oh God, it was terrifying. 

Clare: I mean, I was kind of outed by one of the mums at the school gate. 

Zibby: Oh really? Oh my gosh. 

Clare: So what happened was I had, so this is when I, I, been blogging for about a year under this pseudonym, uh, called myself Sober Mummy.

And I threw a party to celebrate ending my cancer treatment and, uh, so I invited a whole load of friends and family and I told this sort of story, I did a speech and I told a couple of funny stories in this speech and then I went home and I wrote in my blog, as I always did, about what I'd been up to.

And I wrote about the party and I wrote about the speech that I made. And then I was. I went out shopping and I was walking down the King's Road in Chelsea in London and I got this, I remember vividly getting this email from one of the mums at the school gate, who I didn't know that well, but I'd invited to this party because she'd been really helpful when, you know, when I was, you I had all these hospital appointments and everything.

And I was reading this email and it said, Hi Claire, I've been reading this blog for about six months and, and, you know, and it's really funny. And I often sort of read out bits loud to my husband and say, this sounds just like the sort of person I might know. And I think it's you. And because she'd been at the party and then read the blog, she'd put two and two together.

And, and it became clear to me that, you know, I thought that nobody, nobody I knew was reading this, but it became clear that actually quite a few people I knew had been reading my blog and just had no idea it was me. And I'd always changed enough details to try and keep it, you know, keep my identity secret.

Anyway, at that point, I thought, look, I've got I've got to start telling people that it's me and and also enough time had passed. It wasn't also raw. I wasn't so embarrassed and ashamed about the whole thing anymore. And, uh, yeah, so I, I sort of gradually came out and then then the book was published and I did national TV, radio, press and suddenly everybody knew my innermost secrets.

And that was, yeah, that was terrifying. 

Zibby: Wow. Well, I mean, it's amazing. What a story. And I'm so glad you shared. I mean, imagine if you hadn't, you know, where would your life be? What would have happened? 

Clare: You know what? Something I learned, which I, I often tell people in case it helps, which is, you know, I was really, really scared about people knowing the worst things about me.

And, and I, if I'd been able to pull out three days before the book you know, went on sale, I would have done. I really would have done. I was having this terrible, uh, recurring nightmare where I was walking down a street naked and everybody else had their clothes on because that's how it felt. It felt like I was about to walk down a busy shopping street with no clothes on.

And, and what I learned is that when you make yourself really vulnerable and when you tell people, all the, you know, the, the bad things about yourself. People are generally really, really kind because everybody has something that they're struggling with. And, you know, And the thing is, once you're that honest about your life, nobody has anything left to throw at you anymore, there's no need to feel scared about what people might think and what people might say, because you've sort of put it all out there and they've thought it and said it, and you've said it, and, you know, there's nothing left to be afraid of, so, you know, it does, it's, the thought of it is really scary, but actually, you know, vulnerability makes you really strong.

It's an extraordinary sort of, yeah, it's an amazing thing to do, really. 

Zibby: Love that. Vulnerability makes you really strong. It's, it's true. It's true. People see themselves, right? And they, they feel less alone. 

Clare: Yeah. 

Zibby: They're not the only ones. 

Clare: You feel like there's, there's nothing left to hide anymore. And, uh, you know, that's, uh, yeah.

So it's a very empowering thing. 

Zibby: I had a memoir come out a couple of years ago and for me, it was. When the NetGalley link went live, right, for the advanced people, and I was like, Oh my God, I can't take it back. Like, I can't take it back. It's out there. Not that anyone necessarily read it, but I remember just like sitting in my bed being like, Oh my God, I can't, like, how do I get it back?

I can't get back. 

Clare: I know I did exactly the same. And even now, so I've now published the book that's about to come out is my fourth book. And you know, I, that netgalley moment is still terrifying. If anything, it's because you know, more, you know, first time around, I didn't even know it was on my, I didn't even know about netgalley when I, my first book was sort of published, but, but now, you know, waiting for those first netgalley reviews to come through is terrifying.

Zibby: So it seems like in the novels that you switch to next, there's always a bit of an ensemble cast and things going awry and, and the assumptions we make about other people and how people respond in groups and when bad things happen and, you know, how does that affect a group dynamic of people who come from all these different places and are suddenly united, right?

I feel like they mostly have that kind of thing going. 

Clare: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's exactly right. I mean, in each each book, I've explored completely two different issues and through different characters, but the thing they all have in common is this sort of community. And I guess, as you say, the theme of The difference between what we show and who we really are.

And I love playing with that. And I love playing with the way different characters will perceive the same person. So, uh, you know, so for instance, an Iona Iverson's rules for commuting, I love the fact that everybody had a different personal nickname for Iona. And it told us a lot about them, how they sort of are.

So, yeah. So that's something I think they, they all share. 

Zibby: Well, I think a lot of. writers and just a lot of people, we're always having to make these quick judgments about people that we see out and about, right? We don't even realize how fast our brains are, like, figuring stuff out, and you know, often wrong, right?

But like, okay, this person is this way or okay, this person on the subway is whatever, you know, we just have to do that to like get through the world and navigate and yet, does that even help us? You know, it's like that human thing. Yeah. 

Clare: And often I, the things we, the assumptions we make about people say more about us than they do about them and, and I love exploring that. And I love reminding people that, you know, what you see is not, absolutely never what you actually get. 

Zibby: Yes, totally. Tell me what it's like being part of the sort of British author scene of, like, funny women writers. Like, I feel like you must all, like, get together and have coffees and laugh and, you know, how does that work?

Like, who's in the posse and, you know, what is, how does, what's it like for all of you over there? 

Clare: Oh, you know what is being friends with other authors is, is such a joy because it's the sort of, you know, it's the sort of job where, that nobody else, I don't think can properly understand because it's so, you know, there are some amazing highs, but there are also some, some real sort of, you know, some real lows in the process as well.

And you're constantly being, you know, reviewed and judged and, you know, it's, yeah, it's a very unique sort of position to be in. So having other author friends where you can go, ah, my book's on netgalley or, you know, and remind each other that, you know, one bad review is not the end of the world because you for every one bad one you've got a hundred great ones and we have a habit of always focusing on the negative and not the positive so you just have need to have friends who can constantly remind you not to do that and you know not to spend ages looking at good reads and you know all of that sort of thing so uh so yeah so other author friends are really important and you know often a lot of, I mean, I meet people at festivals and that sort of events and that sort of thing, but a lot of us meet through social media.

So, uh, and what used to be called Twitter, there's a big sort of community of, of authors on, on Twitter and we all support each other. And it's a sort of, you know, it's, it's a very, it's a really supportive community. And, uh, you know, we, yeah, I think, I think we all understand, you know, how tricky it can be.

So, so yeah, we were very, um, we're very supportive of each other generally, you know, yeah. So it's, uh, I, I don't know what I would, I would do without them, but there's also always a sense of imposter syndrome. So, you know, I went to this dinner recently and there were some, there were about 10 of us at this dinner.

It was organized by my Swedish publisher and it was over for a London book fair. And they invited all of their British authors. So there are about 10 of us. And, you know, Jojo Moyes was there, and Lisa Jewel was there, and David Nichols was there. And there's this great picture. If you look at, if you go on my Instagram, you can see it.

There's this picture of this dinner with all these really famous authors. And there's me in the corner, this expression on my face like this. This won't work on a podcast, but I'm looking like this and that's, that's my imposter syndrome face, because I was sitting there thinking, I do not deserve to be at this table.

And I think all authors have, especially women, I think, have this imposter syndrome. You know, I am not part, really part of this club and yeah, I don't think I'm the only one that feels like that. Although I'm not sure Jojo Moyes does. 

Zibby: Aww, I love that so much. Are you touring in the U. S. or no? 

Clare: No, not at the moment, I'm afraid.

I'm, I'm going around the U. K. But, um, yeah, I'm not, uh, at the moment, I'm not doing the, the U. S. I think maybe when the paperback comes out, I might be able to get over there. I'd love to. I love, you know, I, I, I love visiting the U. S. And my, uh, my eldest, uh, daughter is now studying in Canada. She's at McGill.

So I've been out that way a bit as well, which is great. 

Zibby: Oh, that's wonderful. Awesome. I'm actually coming to the UK next year at the end of the summer. 

Clare: Oh, amazing. Where are you going? 

Zibby: We're going to, I'm bringing my whole family to the Taylor Swift concert. Wembley. 

Clare: London. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Clare: You're doing a fun one. 

Zibby: Oh, I'm Wembley.

Clare: Yeah. I would love to do that. Yeah. I'm, I'm a Swifty. 

Zibby: Amazing. 

Clare: To get tickets. We, yeah, but didn't manage to, so if anyone out there has a spare ticket that they, you know, do let me know. . 

Zibby: Um, amazing. Well, Claire, thank you so much for chatting. I am literally gonna get off this Zoom and buy the Sober Diaries 'cause it sounds like a book.

That would be one of my favorite books for all the reasons, you know. 

Clare: Oh, thank you. Thank you. 

Zibby: Fabulous. But, but in, but not to, not to disparage How to Age Disgracefully, which is also fabulous, and, you know, now I'm a fan, and I'm sure everybody who reads this book will be, and I think this is incredibly empowering for all of us as we age, for people who are further along in aging, and for everyone who's like, why does the fun have to stop?

Like, let's just do this. Like, come on, let's keep having fun. 

Clare: Hurrah. Thank you so much for inviting me. I've really, I've had great fun chatting to you. Thank you. 

Zibby: You too. Okay. Take care, Claire. 

Clare: Bye. 

Zibby: Bye bye.