Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative journalist and one of the very first authors on the podcast, Charles Duhigg, rejoins Zibby to discuss the New York Times bestseller SUPER COMMUNICATORS, a fascinating exploration of what makes conversations work, with stories, studies, and guidance that will transform the worst communicators into the very best. Charles explains what a super communicator is, emphasizing that it is not about charm or extroversion but rather a set of learnable skills—like asking deep questions. He also delves into the different conversation types, the challenges that can arise, the impact of digital communication, and the importance of authenticity.


Zibby: Welcome Charles, thanks so much for coming back on Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books. It's time to discuss super communicators. Congrats. 

Charles: Thank you for having me. 

Zibby: Charles, you were one of my very first guests. One of the small group of authors I knew when I started this podcast. So, thank you. 

Charles: And since then, how many, how many episodes have you done since then?

Zibby: 1,800. 

Charles: 1,800? That is a lot of episodes. Oh my gosh, congratulations. 

Zibby: A lot of authors. Yeah, it's been fun. But thank you for setting me on the path. 

Charles: Of course, of course. 

Zibby: You probably don't remember this, but you were like the first person who's on the podcast and you're like, you know, I just, I take books apart and I look at the structure and I go back and forth.

And I was like, he does? Like, I don't do that with books. And now I'm like, okay, and I'm taking it apart and I'm looking at the structure. 

Charles: It can, it can kind of undermine the fun of reading a little bit. I'm actually reading, um, James right now. Oh, I haven't read that yet. It's amazing. It is so good. And it's one of those books that's so good that you actually don't want to pay attention to the structure as you're reading it because it's just so well done.

And the structure is so subtle that it actually kind of distracts you from the book. So, so I try and toggle back and forth. 

Zibby: Okay. Well, that's a good ad for James, which was on my TBR anyway. But anyway, okay. Super communicators. Super communicators. Tell everybody what the book is about in a super way. 

Charles: So it's about the science of conversation and connection.

And, and the best way to explain what a super communicator is, is to, I'll ask you a question. If you were having a bad day and you came home and you, you knew that there, there was someone, you called them, they would just make you feel better. Do you know who that person is? Like who, who Does the person pop into your mind who you would telephone?

Zibby: It does. He does? 

Charles: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Can I ask who it is? 

Zibby: My husband. I would call my husband. 

Charles: Yeah. Okay. So for you. Kyle is a super communicator and you're a super communicator back to him, right? You guys know how to talk to each other and you know, you know, the right questions to ask, you know, how to say things that so that the other person can really hear it.

You know how to prove that you're listening to each other and many people listening, have a person like that in their life. And, and we're all super communicators at one time or another. We all know what to say to a friend to make them feel better. We all know sometimes how to walk into that meeting and pitch our idea in a way that everyone signs up.

But there's some people who can do this consistently. Some people who can connect with almost anyone. And when I first started writing this book, I assumed it was because they were super charming or extroverts, but what the research and the data shows is being a super communicator is just a set of skills and it's skills that anyone can learn.

And then once we know them and make them into habits. We can do this anytime we need to. 

Zibby: Look at that and you brought it all back to your first book

Backlist marketing 101 super communicator style Okay, so what are the skills that we need to be a super communicator. 

Charles: Okay, so there's a couple of them so so the the first one is super communicators consistent super communicators tend to ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person and a lot of those questions are Questions designed to invite you in like, yo, what'd you think about that?

Or, Oh, what'd you say next? But some of them are what are known as deep questions. And a deep question is something that asks about our values or beliefs or our experiences, which can sound kind of intimidating, but it's actually simpler than it sounds. Like for instance, if I bumped into, if I didn't know you and I bumped into you and I learned that you'd been to business school, instead of saying, Oh, what business school did you go to?

I would say, Oh, what made you decide to go to business school? Like, what was that like, right? Because then what I'm really asking you is, tell me something about how you see the world. Tell me something about how the experiences you've had have shaped who you are. And that doesn't feel overly personal or overly intimate.

But it invites you to tell me something meaningful. And that helps me figure out what kind of conversation is happening. So that's the first big skill, is asking questions. 

Zibby: Keep going. 

Charles: Okay, keep going. I'll keep going. 

Zibby: Let me ask you a question. 

Charles: No, no, no. This is great. So. 

Zibby: Tell me more about that. 

Charles: One of the things that's really important about what we've learned in the last decade is, I started writing this book because, in part, I got into this bad habit with my wife, Liz.

And we've been married for 20 years, but I would come home from work and I'd be having a bad day, and I would complain about my day, and she would offer me this really good advice, like, why don't you take your boss out to lunch and get to know him a little bit better? And I, of course, Instead of hearing her advice, I would get even more upset and I would say like, why aren't you supporting me?

You're supposed to be on my side. She'd get upset because I was attacking her for giving me good advice. And so I went to researchers and I asked them, what's going on here? What this pattern happens in every relationship, right? Sometimes the roles are switched. And what the researchers said is they said, well, we're living through this golden age of understanding communication for really the first time because of advances in neural imaging and data collection.

And they said, one of the big things that we're learning Is that we tend to think of a discussion as being about one thing, right? We're talking about our day or we're talking about my book or I'm asking about your kids, but actually every conversation, every discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations and those different kinds of conversations, they tend to fall into one of three buckets.

So these practical conversations where we're making plans or solving problems together, then there's emotional conversations right where I tell you what I'm feeling. And I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize. And then finally, there's social conversations, which is about how we relate to each other and, and the social identities that are important to us.

And they said, if you're not having the same kind of conversation at the same time, it's very hard to hear each other. For instance, when you were coming home, you were having an emotional conversation. You are using the deep interior structures of your brain and your wife responded with a practical discussion.

She was using the prefrontal cortex. And as a result, It's hard to connect because what happens when we communicate is that our thinking becomes similar. Our brains begin to look similar. They'll look alike. And so this is known as the matching principle. This is the second thing that super communicators do really well.

They pay attention to what kind of conversation is happening, and then they lean in to match others or invite others to match back, right? And it's pretty easy not to do this because oftentimes, You know, you were waiting for a meeting to start and you turn to someone and you say, how was your weekend?

And they say, Oh, it was great. I went to see my kid's graduation and the easiest thing to do is to say like, Oh, congratulations. That's great. Okay, let's get down to the agenda. But this person just said something a little emotional, right? They're talking about their kid and, and, and how great it was. And so, Okay.

Leaning in matching them would mean saying like, oh, that's amazing. What did it feel like to watch your kid walking across that stage? And perhaps even to share about yourself. Cause, cause I'm worried, you know, my kids are still in high school, but I, I'm worried about them leaving the home. Like, like it makes me both proud and a little anxious.

Now, suddenly, we're actually connecting with each other, which I imagine is something that you do very well, having listened to the podcast. I know that it's something that's very natural to you. But let me, let me ask you, does this, does this resonate with you? Like, are these things that you feel like you see in your own conversations?

Zibby: Yes, I think that it's really important to listen and ask lots of questions, but not to be caught up with what you're about to ask, like to, to, I think to have a good conversation, like you can't have your own agenda, right? I think that's what you're saying, too, with just like following the lead of, you know, The person talking, right?

Like, where, where are they going to take this? And I don't know where this conversation is going, but I'm going to see what you want to talk about. And then I'm going to go there. And sometimes people, I feel like give you little crumbs, little clues, like they mentioned the word grief or something. Oh, I wrote this short story once about grief and I'm like, okay, she wouldn't have mentioned that if she didn't want to talk about it.

Okay. What was your experience of grief? And then next thing you know, she's crying. Right. 

Charles: That's exactly right. So 

Zibby: I don't know. 

Charles: And I think listening for that, being sensitive to listen for those little crumbs, those little hints, because we tell, we tell each other what kind of conversation we want to have all the time.

And, and it's just a question of whether the other person's listening. And one of the things I loved about what you just said is. Sort of the following the lead, what's great about a conversation is that it's not so much that you're setting the pace or you're setting the topic or I'm setting the pace or I'm setting the topic, it's actually something we're doing together, right?

You bring up an idea and I build on your idea and then you build on what I said. It's this shared leadership. That's what comes from matching. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Charles: And remind me, remind me how old your kids are. 

Zibby: My twins are almost 17 and then 10 and 9. 

Charles: Okay. So you're probably in the same place I am, which is 12 and 15.

And, and there's definitely periods where they come home from school and I'm like, how was your day? Good. Did you learn anything today? No. You know, do you have any homework? No. Like it's all these one word answers. And so what I tried, what I've started trying to do is ask these deep questions to see if I can draw them out.

So now when my youngest comes home and I know that he's hung out with his friend, Simon, I say like, Oh, you know, What do you, it seems like you really admire Simon. Like, what do you like about him? What do you think is admirable about him? And then suddenly this kid kind of opens up and he starts telling me the stories that Simon rode his bike off the roof onto the road and that was really courageous.

And I was like, that doesn't sound that's interesting that you call it courageous. Is there other examples of courage that are less dangerous? 

Zibby: And then it turns out you're like. Honey, he's never hanging out with Simon again. 

Charles: Yeah, exactly, exactly. But then it turns out that Simon can talk to girls. That's why my son thinks that he's so courageous.

And that gets us into like, how do you talk to girls? And why, why do you want to talk to girls? So it's like a rich conversation. And the reason why is because I didn't ask about the facts of his life. I asked him about how he feels about his life, and that's really important. That's what a deep question does is it asks people how they feel about their life in a way that invites them to say something real and invites them to be an expert because we're all an expert in our own experiences in our own emotions 

Zibby: And Charles how do you feel about this book coming out being such a hit? How do you feel? I've known you for a long time and I'm so excited for you and how Your career has just continued to grow and you're such a superstar, like, how do you feel about that? 

Charles: Oh, thank you. I, so I, I, in fact, I will tell you an email that I just got.

I just got an email from a reader and he said, I want to start off by saying, I'm awestruck and thankful that you exist. You listened to a, to a, to a podcast and he read the book and he said he and his wife have both dealt with mental health disorders and they have real problems having talking to each other.

And, and then he finishes by saying, thank you so much again for doing what you do. You are saving lives and marriages. And as you know, this is like the best feeling ever, right? We spend so long writing these books. I, I, you know, it took me about three years to write this one. I know that you spend forever on yours as well and you're, and there's part of your brain that's wondering like, is anyone ever going to read this?

And and then to have people say not only that they read it, but that like it's helped them. It's so so. So I feel I feel incredibly blessed. I just feel very lucky that that people are finding the book and that it's it's meaningful to them and and hopeful that it helps us. Get to know each other a little bit better as a, as a nation and a planet.

Zibby: So it sounds like from the beginning, you came at this from a personal relationship standpoint, and then kind of expanded to all of communication and the theories and the science, how has it affected your marriage, learning all of these things? 

Charles: So Liz and I do a lot of things now that I think are really, are very healthy.

So when I come home and I'm having a bad day and I'm complaining, she'll often say, okay, do you want me to solve this problem for you? Or do, do you want, do you just need to complain? Like you're just trying to get this off your, your chest? And of course it's super relieving to hear someone say that, right?

Like, you're like, oh, you know what? Actually this isn't a big deal. I just want to complain and whine to you. So just listen to me. Why? But the other thing that's happened is. You know, there's this concept of reciprocal vulnerability. This is something, another thing that super communicators do really well.

In addition to, to asking questions, they often answer their own question in a meaningful way, you know, like, Oh, you went to business school for this reason because you went to business school because. You know, you had a friend who had done it. That's interesting. I, I went to law school because I saw my dad is a lawyer and I wanted to, to be like him.

So when we answer our own, those own deep questions and we are, we share something meaningful in return, we, we achieve this reciprocation. It brings us together. We're actually hardwired to trust and like people more who reciprocate our vulnerability. I've tried to do that much more actively as a result of reading this book.

You know, I think that Particularly as a journalist, and you can kind of take this removed, right? You can ask questions, but you don't have to answer them yourself. But now when I have conversations with people, I usually try and say something real and meaningful and personal very quickly or early in the conversation just to let people know it's okay to do that with me, right?

That there's a, there's a little bit of intimacy here that we can both lean into if we want to. 

Zibby: But that is only, not everybody wants that. I mean, you want that because you're a really nice person and you're interested in other people. But not everybody who wants to communicate well is doing it for the sake of likeability or doing it for the sake of actually legitimately getting to know other people.

Charles: Yeah, no, it's definitely and there are times when we say we want to have a conversation and we don't actually want to like when I tell my kids I want to have a conversation about your rooms. I don't actually want to have a conversation about the rooms. I want them to go clean the rooms and you're exactly right.

You know, these are tools and like an axe is a tool and you can use it to build a house or to chop someone's head off that it really has to do with the intent of the person who's carrying it. That being said, one of the things that comes through in the research really clearly is. As humans, we have this hair trigger in our brain to detect inauthenticity, right?

We've all been to the party where someone says, where'd you go on vacation? And we know immediately they don't care where we are on vacation. They just want to tell us where they went on vacation and kind of brag about this yacht. We can pick up on that really quickly. And, and even if you use these tools in a kind of inauthentic way, They tend not to work very well and they certainly don't work for a very long period of time.

Now, most of the time we're at a party and you know, we're like, okay, you're a jerk. I'm going to walk away like it's not a big deal or I'm buying a car and I assume that the salesman is going to kind of try and manipulate me. But when, when you think about your relationship with your husband or your kids or your, or your close friends, and I think about the same thing, one of the things that comes across really strongly is the reason we trust them is because they are authentic.

And sometimes that authenticity is saying that they're not. They're not paying attention to you right is saying like, Look, I've got something else going on. I love hearing about your day, but I'm just not going to pay that much attention right now. But that's a form of authenticity. And that authenticity is at the core of how we connect with other people.

But it's also something we're really good at detecting. 

Zibby: So what about the people who feel quite guarded or who are afraid to put themselves out there or share their own emotions for whatever the reason? 

Charles: So I think what often happens is when we see that is that people will say things like I get really anxious about conversations.

I get anxious about what I'm supposed to say. And there's been a number of studies trying to figure out how, how to help this. And one of them, one of my favorites is from, from Harvard Business School, from HBS. Um, and it, the professors, what the professors did is they told all the students in the class, okay, you're going to go have a conversation with a stranger in five minutes.

And this is like the most anxiety producing thing you can tell someone they're going to do. You're going to go, you're going to have to go have a 15 minute conversation with a stranger. But before you do it, what we want you to do is we want you to write down three topics you might discuss. Take seven seconds to do this.

So it could be anything from like, have, did you see that movie? What are you doing this weekend? You know, nonsense things. And so students did this and they said, okay, here's your, here's your assignment. Go talk to the stranger. And afterwards they asked the students, did those topics you wrote down, did they ever come up and the students for the most part said, no, I wrote that topic down and it never came up in the conversation, but.

I felt so much more confident and so much less anxious during the conversation because I know I had these things in my back pocket because I knew I had something to fall back on. And I think that this suggests something that happens, which is when we are anxious about having a conversation, when we are anxious about saying something vulnerable or being guarded, it's because we anticipate.

That the awkwardness or the pain of it is going to be bigger than it actually is, right? There's an experiment done by this guy, Nicholas Eppley, that I do whenever I give speeches. Um, he's at the University of Chicago, where basically I tell these, you know, a thousand people sitting in a, in a conference hall, turn to the person next to you, a stranger, And ask and answer one question.

And the question is, when is the last time you cried in front of another person? And when I asked them, are you guys enthusiastic about this? Nobody raises their hand, right? Nobody wants, nobody's coming to this conference to like have a therapy session and talk about when they cried and then we do it, we do it, we do the experiment.

And afterwards, everyone loves it because they just had a real conversation. They just met someone. They got to know them a little bit. It's interesting. And so one of the problems that we have when we are feeling guarded, when we're feeling uncertain of ourselves. Is that we are over anticipating the downside of this conversation.

And in truth, the upside is almost exclusively what happens. And everyone listening kind of knows that, right? They've all had that conversation that they, they put off and they dreaded and they avoided, and then they had it. And they're like, Oh, I'm so glad I finally did that. I'm so good to get that off my chest.

It went so much better than I expect. Almost all conversations go better than we expect. We just have to have them. 

Zibby: Of course. One of the problems is people aren't even having conversations. They're just like texting one sentence and like, you know, emojis and they're not even like engaging with each other at all.

Charles: That's true. That's true. Although what's interesting is if you ever get a chance, ask your kids to show you, um, Messages that they've sent their friends that are all emojis and ask them to explain what, what they were saying. And what you'll find is that for these, for basically teenagers and younger emojis are a form of emotional communication, which is not really how we use them.

Right. Because we didn't grow up with them. And so. So there is a kind of richness to conversations that can happen over a digital plane for people who have who are comfortable in that plane and comfortable in that channel. And this is actually a pattern from history. So when the first telephones first became popular about 100 years ago, there were all these studies saying that people will never be able to have real conversations over a phone because they can't see each other.

And if they can't see each other, they can't really communicate. And what's interesting is that at the time. They were right. The early transcripts of telephone conversations show that people basically used it as like a telegraph. They would use it to send grocery orders to each other, stock orders. And of course, by the time you and I and everyone listening is in middle school, we can talk for like seven hours a night on the telephone, right?

It's the most meaningful conversations of our lives. The same thing is happening right now with digital communication. That for us, we tend to look at it and we tend to think, ah, this is just this isn't real conversation. This isn't meaningful, but for our kids who are investing in that form of communication, it does feel real and that doesn't mean phones are great, right?

Like if you're, if you're just watching tick tock, if you're not conversing, but you're just passively receiving, it still can be toxic. But there is grounds for hope when it comes to our kids communication skills, even if they might sometimes look different than ours. 

Zibby: Did my daughter put you up to this?

Charles: She just wants screen time relaxed on her phone. She just said another 15 minutes a day and she'll be a great super communicator. 

Zibby: We need another one called just like, good enough communicator, like so, so communicators. 

Charles: Yeah. For parents. 

Zibby: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Well, you've referenced like 800 studies already that you've, that you've read for this book.

How much research went into this and how did you feel about what you learned? 

Charles: It was a tremendous, I mean, every time I, this is my third book. Um, And, and in some ways, I'm always envious of people who are writing fiction because it seems like, it seems like, you know, you get to sit in the room, make things up, and I have to go find stuff.

And at the same time, I think to myself, could I make things up? And the answer is no, I could not make things up. I'm not, I'm not creative enough. Um, Yeah. So it took about three years of full time work. So, so, you know, I'm a writer at the New Yorker, but I basically don't write there when I'm writing a book.

And so I spent three years working on it. And, and it's just a tremendous amount of making phone calls. I think I talked to over like, or, you know, a thousand people or so. And, and you just, you just kind of go through, it's the only way that I've been able to figure out to do reporting that works for me.

And it's not, it's not efficient. Yeah. But I think it ends up working out. And if it doesn't, I don't know how to do it otherwise. So I'll probably just continue doing it this way. 

Zibby: I mean, you've had a lot of positive reinforcement. I feel like you should stay down the path. 

Charles: I, I, I luckily, luckily, as long as people keep sending me emails saying that it's working for them, I'll, I'll, I'll continue doing it.

Can I ask you, like how, when you. Your, your last novel that came out, how long did you spend writing that? 

Zibby: Not that long actually, but I, I sold it on proposal and I had a deadline, so I did it in about nine months. 

Charles: Gotcha. But I imagine that was a pretty full nine months, like that you were thinking about it all the time.

Zibby: I should have been. I'm not a good test case. I will say my memoir that came before it, On and Off, was working on it for like 20 years, I will say, even though I didn't write that, it came out of failed novels and all the rest. So I like to think that it's a version of all the other failures that came before it.

But this, this, this one was pretty quick for blank. And then I'm writing another book now and I have even less time to finish it and I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. 

Charles: I don't think that's a bad thing. I was reading this interview with Alex Garland, the guy who just made Civil War, and he said that his scripts fall into two categories.

He either writes them in ten days, or he writes them in two years. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Charles: And that the 10 day ones are better than the two year ones, I have a hypothesis. I'll see if this is true for you. I think, I think what that reflects is that you've actually spent years thinking about what you want the book to say.

And now you can just say it. Whereas with nonfiction. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what I want to say in the first place. And so the writing part of it is actually probably the smallest part of writing these books. It's the reporting and the thinking that's the biggest part. 

Zibby: Well, I do all that beforehand.

I have like a detailed 60 page outline. So I just need to get the word. 

Charles: Oh my gosh. 

Zibby: Yeah. I just need the words. 

Charles: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. 

Zibby: Yeah. So have you landed on your next topic yet? For... 

Charles: I have not, I have not, I've been promoting this. The super communicators came out about two months ago and I've been promoting nonstop.

And at some point I need to like figure out what I'm gonna do with the rest of my life. As you know, look, the thing is, you get so wrapped up in, in your current project and getting this book over the finish line. And then suddenly, suddenly you're like, you're like, Oh, now I don't have, I don't have anything to do today.

Yeah. And you realize you haven't thought about the next 20 years.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh. 

Charles: So that's what I got to figure out now. 

Zibby: And I know we talked briefly before the book came out about the promotion of it. Any gems that you've learned along the way, anything changed from the last book or? 

Charles: Yeah, so the thing, and I'd be curious, I'd be curious your reactions on this and if you've had the same experience.

I basically decided to focus on podcasts like I felt like podcast was a place and we sort of set up a process and I was I recorded 70 podcasts before the book came out and they was all dropped in like the two weeks after publication and we're still continuing to basically record podcasts and I think it works but I think what's happened what I've noticed from like when I wrote the power of habit to today is When I wrote The Power of Habit, I basically wrote an, you know, did an excerpt in the New York Times magazine, and that's all it took, like, from there, everything unrolled.

Now, like, everything is so balkanized, right? Everybody listens to different shows. Everybody watches different shows and reads different things. You really have to be out there on everything just to have people hear about your book once and so so that's that's I think it's it's kind of a sad commentary.

I think on what's going on right now in the media sphere, but I think it also means that there's an opportunity for those of us who care deeply and like this stuff to try and and take advantage of that to make this to make this a career as opposed to like a side hustle, right? I think writing books is really a career.

And that's good. 

Zibby: That's good but you're absolutely right. I mean, the whole thing is so fragmented, it's impossible. Sometimes it feels impossible. 

Charles: Yeah. 

Zibby: But I like that you flipped it into being a joy, and that was good. Yeah, 

Charles: exactly. Well, you know, some days. for that. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Charles: And also, I wanted to thank you, um, because you were one of the first people to recommend Bink to me for this scholarship that we set up for booksellers who are writers.

And it came, it came into fruition. It, like, exists. I'm sorry. Now, I think like, I think something like 67 booksellers and comic sellers applied to get a scholarship in order to like finish their book. So it's, it's awesome. Yeah. I love those guys. Thank you for introducing me to them. You're so welcome.

Zibby: They're wonderful. That's great. Oh my gosh. Amazing. Well, any last minute advice for aspiring authors or perhaps people who would like it to be a career, as you say? 

Charles: Yeah. So, I mean, I, the best advice I can give I think is, and I think most people know this, but it still is good to hear it. The first draft of everything sucks.

The first draft, like it's, it, it can be so dispiriting to be a writer because Our taste is so much better than our clumsy fingers at first. And, and now that I've done three books and, and I've been lucky enough that they're all bestsellers, I feel like I've been through this enough that I can say, even when you write it and it sucks, that that isn't cause for despair because it's going to get better.

Like it's, it, nothing gets good until the third or fourth or fifth pass. You know, F. Scott Fitzgerald had this quote, He said, yeah, I'm a really bad writer, but I'm an amazing self editor. And I, I feel the same way about myself. And so for anyone who's listening, I think the key is like, it's easy to get down on ourselves, but.

If you just put your butt in the chair and you just work it over and over and over again, you get better and it gets better. 

Zibby: Amazing. Well, Charles, thank you so much. I feel like actually, and maybe you've already done this. You should be giving this to everybody or having them buy it at HBS for the first year.

This should be acquired reading because that, you know, inauthentic manufactured conversation. style definitely snuck its way into, to a lot of our social engagement, I think, particularly our first year. So they could use some help, but not everybody. 

Yeah, it could be helpful. But anyway, it's so great that you are helping so many people in so many different ways, and it's just really awesome.

So congratulations. 

Charles: Thank you so much. I feel the same about you. It's so, it's such a, it's such a pleasure and a blessing to be able to catch up with you ever so often. So thank you. 

Zibby: You too, just keep writing books and we can keep this up. 

Charles: Okay. We'll do. 

Zibby: See you in a couple of years. 

Bye Charles.


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