Catherine Price, THE POWER OF FUN
Science journalist, consultant, and author Catherine Price returns to talk with Zibby about her latest book, The Power of Fun. Catherine explains how signing up for the guitar lessons she always wanted to take inspired her to re-evaluate how we define “fun” and the importance having fun has in our everyday lives. She shares what she learned from interviewing several people about the most fun they’ve ever had, how the misconceptions around seeking enjoyment often prevent adults from doing the things that make them the happiest, and why the human connection that results from having fun is essential as we emerge from the pandemic.
Transcript:
Zibby Owens: Welcome, Catherine. Thank you so much for coming back on “Moms Don’t Have Time to Read Books” to discuss The Power of Fun: How to Feel Alive Again. You were last on for How to Break Up with Your Phone.
Catherine Price: Thank you so much for having me, Zibby.
Zibby: This is so fun to do because we get to talk about fun the whole time. You totally convinced me about why this is important. Then you gave us really great, actionable advice on how to incorporate it in our life with quizzes and questions. I finished and I was like, okay, I know what I need to do. I know how I’m going to do it. Thank you very much. Now I just hope I do it.
Catherine: That is really wonderful to hear.
Zibby: Tell listeners a little bit about this book and especially what you talked about in the introduction, how it came to be with your daughter and everything.
Catherine: Surprisingly to me, The Power of Fun is a direct follow-up to my last book that you and I spoke about, How to Break Up with Your Phone. The reason there is that I had gone through all these steps to “break up with my phone,” which as you know, doesn’t mean totally dumping it. It’s just about creating better boundaries with our devices. I felt very good about myself. I was like, oh, yay, I have a healthier relationship. Not perfect. It’s still not perfect because I think it’s impossible, but it was healthier. Then I realized that I had forgotten something really important, which is that once you create more time for yourself, you’re going to end up with a lot more time. Unless you figure out what you want to do with that time, you’re going to end up right back on your device. I ended up having this moment where my husband and I, we were deliberately taking a break from our devices, kind of like a tech Shabbat-type thing. I had what should’ve been a glorious hour in front of me. I was sitting in our living room. He was out. Our daughter was taking a nap. I could do whatever I wanted to for a whole hour.
As you know, in early parenthood, that’s a pretty glorious opportunity. I was sitting there. I realized I had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do with that time because I’d gotten so used to filling my time with stupid things on my phone that I didn’t know what I wanted to do anymore. I really had a bit of a crisis in that moment because that went against my self-definition as a self-aware, interested person. I asked myself a question that I had asked people when I was researching How to Break Up with Your Phone. That was, what’s something you always say you want to do but supposedly don’t have time for? In my case, my answer to that question was, I always say I want to learn how to play guitar. I have a guitar, but I’ve never learned how to play it. I ended up signing up for this guitar class. I experienced this magical feeling during the class. I was trying to figure out what the best word was to describe it. The best word that came to mind was fun. That’s how I got started on this project about writing a book about the power of fun.
Zibby: Wow. Who knew? I should just pick up the extra guitar my daughter has. It sounds like you had a great group of people in the class too. You were all going for drinks and everything. Lucky you that that was so fun.
Catherine: It was such an interesting experience. It was at, technically, a children’s music studio. It’s run by this guy named Mr. John. What’s funny is that because a lot of the people have found the studio through their children, the adults also refer to the head of the studio as Mr. John even though we’re all old enough to not have to do that. It was very interesting because I realized it wasn’t just about getting a new skill. I think that’s something that people often are misled by when they think about fun. They think, oh, if I’m going to have fun, I have to just add more activities to my schedule. Moms don’t have time to have fun, right? We don’t have time to add more things to our to-do list. We feel really overwhelmed and then almost angry about the concept that we should be even trying to prioritize fun. I realized it wasn’t about the skill. It wasn’t about the activity, per se. It was this feeling that I was getting, this buoyant energy. The important thing that I noticed was that that energy stayed with me through the week. It ended up giving me more energy to do the other things in my life that were less fun, like chores or getting my daughter ready for school. Even yesterday, I actually had an experience where I played music with some people. I had been super grumpy this weekend. I think it was because of a fun deficit, honestly, because I’ve been in such restricted mode. I had an experience of fun yesterday. I am in such a better mood today. That was one of the most important takeaways for me. It seems like yet another to-do, but we shouldn’t think about fun that way at all. Instead, we should think about it as a gift we give ourselves that we will be better able to cope with all of the other things that are on our list.
Zibby: It’s so true. I was a little concerned because you do have a passage that says, don’t turn your fun into work. I feel like I did that. Now I don’t know what to do.
Catherine:
Zibby: What does the sensation of true fun really do for us? Why is it so important?
Catherine: First of all, the sensation of true fun is really when we feel joyfully alive. I felt that myself. Then I wanted to check that feeling to make sure I just wasn’t overreacting. I was like, maybe I am just so starved for fun that I’m having this life-changing experience in my guitar class, but other people are like, yeah, that’s nice. If you look up fun in the dictionary, it just says lighthearted pleasure. Meanwhile, I’m being moved to tears by the profound experience of this life-affirming joy that I’m getting in my guitar class. I ended up recruiting a new group of people off my life Screen/Life Balance email list. I call them the fun squad. I asked people to share with me, three experiences from their own lives that they would describe as having been “so fun.” It was very technical. I did this smack in the middle of the lockdowns of the pandemic. It was in summer of 2020, so it was really interesting to ask people, kind of awkward but also interesting, to ask people about fun when all of us were feeling pretty fun-starved. I read through these anecdotes. I noticed that the energy behind them was not unique to me at all.
It was a really interesting experience where I’d read through these little stories people shared with me, one after the other, and I would feel so joyful, but also nearly be moved to tears. I often actually did have tears in my eyes because people were expressing these little moments from their lives where they felt alive. It felt so human, so connecting. It was little anecdotes about going out in high school and squishing mud through my toes with my friend Margaret or standing in the rain with my grandfather as a child deliberately getting soaked or just running into the ocean barefoot. It was just these small moments. That was how I confirmed that I was not totally off base. I then realized I needed to come up with a better definition of fun than just lighthearted pleasure because clearly, that was not all that was happening here. The definition I came up with, which I checked with these people to again make sure that I was not just totally out on a limb myself, was that these moments of what I call true fun are the confluences of three states, which is playfulness, connection, and flow. Playfulness, adults really tense when you say playfulness. To clarify, I just mean a lighthearted attitude, not caring too much about the outcome of what you’re doing. Even, I would say, our conversation right now is playful because we’re just, at least I am, enjoying your company.
Zibby: I’m enjoying it too. I’m having fun, yes.
Catherine: In other words, it doesn’t need to be playing games or, god forbid, charades or something like that. Then connection, sometimes people described having true fun in moments where they felt truly connected to their physical body or to an activity or to their authentic selves. That was a very common theme. When we’re having fun, we are in touch with our authentic selves, which I think is part of the reason it can feel so powerful. In the vast majority of anecdotes, there also was another person or sometimes a creature, like a dog or a cat, but some other living creature involved. That was true for introverts in addition to extroverts, which was really interesting. Then flow is the psychological state of getting so wrapped up in your present experience that you lose track of time. Not losing track of time binging Netflix, but more being actively engaged. I think all of those states are great on their own, but when you put them together, you get true fun.
To answer your question, there’s actually not a lot of research about fun, per se, I think because we don’t have a good definition of it and also because we typically think of fun as being frivolous. If you look at it as the confluence of playfulness and connection and flow, there’s actually a ton of research on all those states. Just some of the things they do for us, they really lower our stress levels, which is incredibly important both for our mental health, but then also for our physical health. When we’re chronically stressed, our cortisol levels are high. Increased cortisol rates over time are associated with all sorts of negative health things like heart attack, heart disease, stroke; bad, very bad. Also, I think we radically underestimate the importance of human connection as a health issue. Loneliness and isolation are so bad for us. There was one big study that likened their effects to those of smoking fifteen cigarettes a day. That’s nuts. Anything we can do that brings us closer to other people is going to improve our physical health. Most importantly, it feels good. We always forget that part. It also just makes you more productive and more creative and happier. I could go on. Sorry, I just took a ten-minute tangent there.
Zibby: No, it’s so interesting. I recently interviewed Florence Williams about her book, Heartbreak. Did you talk to her yet?
Catherine: Oh, Heartbreak. I haven’t, no. I’m thinking of a different book.
Zibby: She has a new book coming out. Now it’s out by the time this airs. It’s called Heartbreak: A Personal and Scientific Journal. She’s a science journalist writing about heartbreak. We literally just had this conversation about loneliness and how she met with some doctors who could tell by your white blood cells how lonely you are.
Catherine: Oh, my gosh, I have to — I was looking over my shoulder because I have her book, The Nature Fix.
Zibby: Yes, I didn’t read that one.
Catherine: It’s great. If we want to have a Florence Williams promo right here, read her books because they’re so interesting. She does such a beautiful job of weaving together her personal experience with science. She also wrote a book, I believe, called Breasts, didn’t she?
Zibby: I don’t know. I don’t remember reading about that.
Catherine: I’m pretty sure she did. The book Breasts, everyone out there, fellow moms, is really good.
Zibby: She did an Audible Original, Breasts Unbound, maybe.
Catherine: Yes, and she wrote an original book called Breasts. I’m just going to keep saying breasts over and over again.
Zibby: Just keep talking about it.
Catherine: Everyone should read that book. It’s so good.
Zibby: I think there should be a panel with you and her and also Eve Rodsky. I was happy to see that you mentioned the Unicorn Space in the book because the whole time, I was like, this is kind of like Unicorn Space. Although, you guys are coming at it at different ways. Florence is coming at it a different way. Basically, you’re all trying to help us all live better, more fulfilling, happier lives, and feel more connected and grounded and have a life of meaning. There’s all this science in different ways. I’m happy to moderate or something.
Catherine: Nice. Okay, done.
Zibby: We should do that.
Catherine: Let’s make that happen.
Zibby: Okay, we’ll make that happen. That would be really fun. Ultimately, the things that you’re espousing, and them too, this is what life is all about. You have a whole chapter where you’re like, okay, we’re all going to die. You’re like, sorry to bring you down in this book about fun, but it’s true. I think about that all the time. We all have this set amount of finite time, uncertain how much, but we can guesstimate based on the max. Although, I just started wearing reading glasses. My dad was like, “You know, that’s the leading indicator that your life is half over. That’s the midpoint.” Out of all the studies, apparently — I have nothing to back this up other than he said it’s true.
Catherine: Other than your dad.
Zibby: Take this with a grain for salt. Although, he does tend to research things very well. When you get reading glasses, that’s the best indicator that your life is halfway done. I’m like, “Okay, so I’ve got until ninety?” He’s like, “It’s plus or minus five years.” I’m like, okay, I’ve got eighty-five to ninety-five. I’ve got forty years left, on the low end, if I’m lucky and I don’t get hit by a car tomorrow or whatever.
Catherine: That’s also pretty funny because technically, to say your dad, isn’t that just generally — we could all say eighty-five to ninety-five years is probably —
Zibby: Yeah, it’s true. He’s saying some people get glasses earlier.
Catherine: Oh, dear. Okay.
Zibby: If you get glasses at forty, your projected lifespan would actually be seventy-five to eighty-five. If you got glasses at fifty, you could push it up again. Have you gotten reading glasses yet?
Catherine: I have not, but I’m so myopic that I’ve just basically been half-blind since I was seven. It might just be that my eyes are slightly getting better at a distance and in fact, I would need reading glasses but for the fact that I can’t see anything. I don’t know. I’ll have to look into this.
Zibby: I’ve had perfect vision my whole life, so this has been slightly traumatic for me to have to adjust. All of a sudden, I’m like, how does everybody else read shampoo bottles? I don’t even understand. Literally, I’m in a whole new world here, which I’m not very happy about. I’m going to write about it soon. Anyway, all to say, we are all going to die. That is no big secret. Yet we try to push it back and back and not think about it. Then we don’t have it factor into our everyday decisions because if you live every day as if you’re about to die, then you wouldn’t be a responsible person. You wouldn’t, probably, earn a living. You can’t go every day eating five SusieCakes marbles cakes or whatever. Although, that does sound like fun. There we go, fun. Your whole notion of, what do we do with this limited time — how do we fit in it? How can people not think of this as a waste of time, but in fact, the most important time that they could spend? Talk a little bit about that.
Catherine: I think that is the most common misperception about fun. People can roll their eyes and say, fun? Seriously? I’ve got all these other things to do. There’s all these problems in the world. You want me to think about fun? Isn’t that something for just people who are privileged? Other people can’t have fun. I think that, yes, we need to have our basic needs met in order to think about anything beyond our basic survival, but I think it’s really a misperception to think, A, that there’s certain categories of people who can fun and those who can’t have fun, and then B, that it’s not possible to be a “serious person” and also to prioritize fun. I think that’s a really important thing to think about. Far from being frivolous, fun can help us with all these goals. First and foremost, as we’re talking about, fun will help us enjoy our own lives. That should be enough. I think there’s a really weird thing where, especially in America, but elsewhere as well, we don’t feel like we have permission to enjoy our own lives. That’s really messed up if you think about it because who is it doing any good for to not enjoy your life? You’re not going to go jet skiing every day and not take care of your children. I’ve actually never jet skied, so that’s not going to be a thing for me to
Just to continue with our existential conversation around the subject of fun, one thing I’ve been thinking about myself over the weekend is this book, I think it’s called The Top Five Regrets of the Dying. It’s written by a woman who worked in palliative care. Some of the top things were, I wish I hadn’t worked so hard. Then the last one is, I wish I’d given myself permission to be happy. I think that that’s really important. In terms of the other concerns, I think that it’s interesting how we just think about things in such a black-and-white and zero-sum way. If you’re caring about fun, then you can’t also care about climate change, but you can. In fact, the more fun you’re having, the more energized you’ll be to take action on some of the serious things in the world. Perhaps most importantly, the more connected you’ll be with other people. So many of our problems these days have to do with political polarization and our inability to see each other as human beings. When you’re having fun with someone, you’re connected with them on a human level. You’re not thinking about your differences. You’re thinking about what brings you together. In fact, I think that fun can be an important tool to actually solve some problems. Just as an example, one that I got from this book called Humor, Seriously, which is great and I highly recommend —
Zibby: — I keep writing down these books you’re talking about. Okay, keep going.
Catherine: Humor, Seriously. It’d be fun to have the authors on the show, two Stanford professors who teach a class about humor in the business school. They have two examples in their book. One is of Madeleine Albright when she was secretary of state. She’s at a conference in — where was it? It’s in Asia, a major conference. She’s trying to negotiate with her Russian counterpart about some policy having to do with Myanmar, something that’s heavy. It’s a big deal, America and Russia. Then she finds out there’s a tradition at this conference where you’re supposed to be in a skit before dinner. Someone’s like, “You have to sing.” She, at first, was like, what? Anyway, long story short, there ends up being this thing where she teams up with her Russian counterpart who should be her adversary. They stay up late one night. The Russians provide the vodka. They rewrite the lyrics to the West Side Story song “I Just Met a Girl Named Maria” so that it is now East West Story and it’s “I Just Met a Girl Named Madeleine Albright.” They perform this at the dinner. You might say that is ridiculous. What the hell are they doing? They’re supposed to be there negotiating international policy. They’re supposed to be adversaries. This is a waste of money. They should be ashamed. No.
In fact, what happened is, they connected on a human level. They actually started a friendship. They still had huge issues with each other. They were not going to agree on everything, but she said it completely changed the tenor of their negotiations because from that point forward, they were able to connect as human beings. It actually helped international diplomacy. I think that’s a really important example to keep in mind. In the book, they include some examples from George W. Bush’s cabinet as well where there was frequently this use of humor and levity and fun that from the outside might seem crazy. Apparently, they Saran wrapped Karl Rove’s car.
Zibby: I love that. I’m thinking in my head, if I were the president, we could — maybe we should run on this platform, you and me on the ticket, for an International Fun Day, Monday, Tuesday, whatever, Fun Day. Then everybody would have to go just have fun all day with people that they didn’t know very well. What would happen if we all did that once a year, once a month?
Catherine: Yes. In the UK, there is something called the minister of loneliness, which is so Harry Potter-sounding. I can’t even.
Zibby: Yes, I knew that for some reason.
Catherine: I put it in my book.
Zibby: Oh, maybe that’s how I knew it.
Catherine: I was laughing to myself because I was like, what does that person’s business cards look like? Why don’t we have a minister of fun? I actually came up with an idea this weekend that I’m really excited about. If anyone else out there is interested in trying this — I was trying to figure out and am trying to figure out more and more ways to have fun in the middle of a global pandemic and also in the middle of winter, just kind of a down time. I came up with this idea that I want to try going forward, which is that, for other friends — sorry, let me back up. I feel like so many of our interactions as parents involve the parents standing around watching kids have fun. Then when you try to do something with other parents and the kids are there, it’s just not really that fun for the grown-ups a lot of times. You’re constantly getting interrupted. Even though you love your kids and blah, blah, blah, you’re kind of like, shut up. Then I realized I, at least, am a freelancer with a flexible schedule. I also was thinking about how one of the common themes that came up when I asked people about their experiences of fun was rebellion, this feeling of playful rebellion, doing things that were slightly deviant. Then also, I was trying to make plans with some friends to see each other, but they have three kids. They’re all under five, really challenging. Then we come up with this realization that at the moment, all of our schedules are relatively flexible with working from home in our chosen careers. Instead of trying to find a way to see each other in an evening, why don’t we just see each other on a Wednesday morning? Why don’t we just have a coffee date for adults?
Zibby: I am now owning the fact that I don’t really like the nighttime. I don’t like to leave my house. I don’t like the dark. I don’t like to drive in the dark. I don’t like to be outside in the dark. I think I have childhood issues. I don’t know what my problem is. That’s why a lot of times when I have salons here or whatever, it’s at eleven thirty. I am at my best at breakfast. I just go downhill all day.
Catherine: Right, exactly. We made this plan. I realized I’m so looking forward to Wednesday morning because it feels so deviant, in a way, to be like, oh, I’m not just going to sit in front of my email inbox at eight thirty in the morning. I’m going to drop my daughter off or my husband will drop her off. Then we’re going to come back, and we’re going to hang out and have grown-up time in the middle of a workday. Then I was thinking, why don’t I just do that regularly and call it fun Fridays and have a once-a-month open invite for any friends who have a flexible schedule who want to have a coffee break and come over and have a bit of adult time in the middle of a weekday morning? I’m really excited about it.
Zibby: People actually do this, Catherine.
Catherine: They do?
Zibby: Yeah.
Catherine: Do they really? People have fun on Friday morning?
Zibby: People actually see friends for coffee and lunch during the day even though it’s a workday. It’s true.
Catherine: Tell me more, Zibby.
Zibby: I’ll tell you, one of the most fun days I’ve had in the last ten years, probably, was when a fellow mom — this was at a school my kids don’t even go to anymore. She was turning fifty. She was older than me, obviously. Doesn’t matter. She was turning fifty. She said, “What I really want is to go to the movies with a bunch of girlfriends.” We went to a ten o’clock showing of Bad Moms. She bought us all disposable wine cups and got us all the biggest candy from the store. We sat there and laughed so hard. We left, it was twelve thirty. I had the best day. Of course, the next time, I’m like, oh, I’m too busy, I can’t go to your birthday this year. Now I feel terrible about it. Anyway, it was really fun.
Catherine: Oh, but isn’t that interesting? It’s like, I’m too busy, I can’t go to your birthday, even though as you just told me that story, you totally lit up and said it was one of the most fun times you’ve had in the past ten years. I think we do that too often to ourselves even if we’re intellectually aware. That was super fun. Here’s an opportunity to do exactly the same thing. You’re like, yeah…
Zibby: I had things planned. I would’ve had to cancel all these things, and work stuff. I don’t know.
Catherine: I know, it’s hard. I’m also just laughing at the fact that apparently, I’m so starved for human contact in the pandemic that I’m like, no, guys, we can get together and drink a hot — maybe coffee. What would we call it? A coffee date. Yes, a coffee date.
Zibby: When the kids are at school. When I had more of a life, I used to be able to do that occasionally. In fact, that’s what we do. Our school has class coffees for each grade once a year.
Catherine: Does it feel naughty, though? It needs to feel kind of naughty.
Zibby: Again, I didn’t go to it this year. I didn’t even go.
Catherine: Oh, no.
Zibby: I know. Now I’m sounding less and less fun. I’m not making any time for fun. I liked your microdosing section, too, because I’m like, oh, okay, I don’t need to do this for a long time.
Catherine: I think that’s also a good example. If my daughter’s school does stuff like that, I do try to get myself to do it because I feel like — she’s only in first grade. We haven’t met any of the other parents because of the pandemic. I’m glad I did, but that’s an example where, to me, it feels like a to-do, if it’s like, okay, I’ve got on my schedule that I have to go. I’m going to make small talk with parents and hope that I find somebody that I gel with and that I can have a conversation. Often, that does happen, but it feels like a little bit of a hurdle to do that. Whereas to me at least, if I add this element of rebellion where I’m inviting people I already know who are friends who I really do love seeing but I don’t have many opportunities to just see as grown-ups without our families involved, that feels fun to me. I think it might differ by person. It’s interesting to think about it. It’s exactly the same activity. Although, we might have Irish coffee on Wednesday at ten o’clock in the morning. I’ve never actually even had Irish coffee. I might even hate it, but the idea feels so naughty. I just love it. I think it’s interesting to think about how the exact same activity in a different context feels very different.
Zibby: Yes, very true. Interesting. I’m getting all sorts of ideas on how to have more fun and why it’s so important. You really need to block it off in your calendar, though. I feel like I just don’t leave enough time to do it.
Catherine: That’s the other thing. I’m doing a fun-tervention right now, which is going to be a rolling basis, so people can still join it if they want to at screenlifebalance.com. The first step of that, as you know — I’ve got this acronym in the book, SPARK. The S is for make space. That’s for exactly the reason you just said. You do need to clear out some things in order to have mental and emotional space to even think about this because it will feel overwhelming. It’s so ironic. You’ll feel resentful towards fun — poor fun — if you don’t have a bit of space. There’s a number of ways to prioritize doing that. One is to create better boundaries with your devices because one of the primary sources of distraction and interruption in our lives right now is the constant dinging from our phones. Actually, just yesterday, I was thinking, I don’t want to call them notifications anymore. I want to call them interruptions because that’s what is happening. That’s one thing.
Then as you mention, I wrote a bunch about Eve Rodsky’s book, Fair Play, in my book because she — Eve is amazing. I’m really happy I’ve gotten to know her personally since her new book came out, Find Your Unicorn Space. In her book Fair Play, she writes all about, how do you actually identify all the emotional labor and the work that goes into running a household that’s not often acknowledged and therefore, it’s not shared equitably? That’s another really crucial way to make space for fun, is to really talk with your partner or whoever you’re running a household with about everything that goes into it. Make sure it feels fair. If someone’s carrying resentment, then they’re not going to have much fun themselves. Then also, they’re going to feel resentful towards their partner for having fun. That’s not what we want. Ideally, you want both people to be having enough opportunities for fun, either on their own or together, that they’re not resentful about the other person getting to have a bit of that. There’s a lot of ways in which we can and should make space for fun. That, I think, is the important first step.
Zibby: See, what happened is, like you said, we have connection and meaning and flow because I’ve already gone over our time and didn’t even realize it because I lost track of time.
Catherine: I have no idea what time it is.
Zibby: There we go. Awesome. I wish you lived in New York so I could join your Irish coffee date. Although, I probably would say no because I’m too busy, but I would want to go. I would have fun.
Catherine: You know what? Let’s use that as a metaphor for whatever Irish coffee dates present themselves to you next. Bad Moms, that sounds very fun. That has so many elements of just — so fun.
Zibby: It was so great. Maybe I’ll do that again. Maybe I’ll organize a big screening or something. I don’t know. Anyway, I got to go. You got to go. Bye. This was really fun, exactly what we’re saying. I’m going to come back to you about doing a panel because I really want to hear all three of you together.
Catherine: I would love to do that. I love both of them. Eve and Florence are fantastic. That would be just such a treat. Thank you.
Zibby: It’s on my list.
Catherine: Thank you for all you do to bring writers together and support writers and just spread writing, etc., etc. It’s so appreciated.
Zibby: It’s fun for me.
Catherine: Take care.
