Zibby Owens: Hi, Cameron.

Cameron Douglas: Hi, Zibby.

Zibby: I’m looking forward to our conversation. We got a little preview beforehand. All these people stole some of my questions, but I’ll come up with some more.

Cameron: Because you’re a pro.

Zibby: Long Way Home: A Memoir of Fame, Family, and Redemption, you have been through so much in your life, and you’re younger than me. It’s unbelievable. Why did you decide to put it all into a book? Why write a book about this at all?

Cameron: I’ll give you the short answer first. Then I’ll elaborate a little bit. The short answer was to try to take some of these experiences that I’ve been through, some of them very painful, some of them lovely, and turn them into something useful for people. That’s the short answer. To be a little more long-winded, at first, it was my father that was really pushing me to write this book. I was confused about that, as we talked about earlier, because our family has always been very private. It was helpful. It was out of love that he was pushing me to write this book and also out of the fact that he and the rest of my family felt that I had a story to tell and a story to share. At the expense of some of their privacy, they felt that it was worthwhile. It’s been an interesting journey. It’s been a long journey. I started writing the book before I came home in 2015, 2016. It took about four years to write all in all. I must say, I learned a lot. I learned a lot about myself, which is important to have insights like that when you paid such a high price for your decisions.

Zibby: You mentioned earlier that it was really your time in prison that allowed you to get in touch with your feelings. I wanted just to hear a little more about how that happened. Were you in prison one day and you asked for a notebook? How did you start writing there? How did you find the time? How in control of your time even were you?

Cameron: It started, really, when I was doing my first fairly long stretch in solitary confinement. It was around eleven months. It was fairly early on in my sojourn through prison. I had a really difficult time adjusting. My journey was very atypical. I started at a minimum security, and I worked my way up to high security. That’s not the way it’s supposed to work. You’re supposed to go the other way. As I said, I really had a difficult time settling in. I was very angry at myself, which I think is understandable. I don’t think I dealt with that very well. As a result, I just made life even more difficult for myself. I’d like to think that some of it was necessary. It’s part of my journey. From where I’m sitting today, I probably wouldn’t be here without a lot of those experiences. I was in solitary confinement. Obviously, you can imagine. You’re in there twenty-three hours a day. You get one hour three times a week. Most days, you’re in there twenty-four/seven. Then on the days that you do come out for that hour, usually they’ll come get you at around four thirty in the morning. If you’re on the East Coast, they take you outside to a little cage. It’s just freezing out there. I opted to sleep in most of the time anyway. I started journaling. What I tried to do is I tried to set up a curriculum for myself to keep my mind active. It made me feel like I was taking some of my freedom back. The curriculum was reading. I’d read three books. I’d have a self-help type of book. Then I’d read a literary classic, something you might read in an English lit class in college. Then I’d have a beach read like Game of Thrones or something like that. Had that. I had my exercise, meditation, and writing. I don’t want to speak for too long, but that’s where it started.

Zibby: I love the idea of you sitting — I mean, not love, but the comical vision of you in solitary confinement with a beach read. It’s so against what you would think. That’s great that literature could provide you with that outlet, as it does. That’s some of the power of books to begin with. Where better to escape than when you literally can’t?

Cameron: It really is. Then I’ll fully answer your question. You have this book cart that comes around a couple times a week. I got this book off the cart by this great American classic author, Stephen Crane. This was his book of short stories called The Red Badge of Courage. They’re all fantastic stories. The Red Badge of Courage in particular really spoke to me and gave me something that I think was necessary for me at the time. I was so taken by his writing that I got in touch with my — you get one phone call every three weeks. I got on the phone and I asked, I forget who, I said, “Find me some more books by this guy Stephen Crane.” I didn’t realize he was a well-known poet as well. What came in the mail was all these books of poetry. I was like, what am I going to do with this? I was fairly well-educated, but I’ve never really connected with poetry. I started reading them, as you can imagine . For the first time, I really was taken by poetry and inspired by it. I started playing around a little bit. That’s kind of where it started.

Zibby: Nice to have the little one. I was warning you that this good stage was going to end. Anyway, in your book, you talked when you were younger about developing what your mom called the curly-whirlies where you would spin your hair around. Your anxiety was clearly manifesting itself from an early age. Do you feel like some of your later behaviors were your own way of coping with maybe an anxiety disorder that wasn’t really treated or underlying things? Now that you’re in a totally new place emotionally, where did that all come from? What would you do to prevent this trajectory from happening to, say, your daughter?

Cameron: Especially as a child and then as a teenager, I always felt sort of uncomfortable in my own skin. I would do everything I could to not let onto that. I think I learned at a fairly early age that by getting high or getting buzzed, it would allow me to feel comfortable. Looking back on everything, one thing that I really had a chance to take advantage of but I didn’t that I think would’ve been extremely helpful is therapy. Had I been a little more open and willing to talk to somebody as a teenager, I think maybe it would’ve been helpful. That’s something I let anybody know. I have friends that have kids that are struggling. I tell people that I care about to give it a chance. It’s a big part of my life today. It just took me so long. It wasn’t until maybe six months before I was being released from prison. I remember one day saying to myself, I think I’m ready to give therapy a chance when I get home. I followed through on that. It’s been very helpful for me.

Zibby: I thought it was so funny that when you got out of prison, one of the things you realized you missed the most was going to the dentist. Who knew?

Cameron: Exactly. I was pretty fortunate with my dental situation in prison. It’s funny. My partner, Vivian, who I live with and we have a daughter together, I’ve known her for many years. She reached out to me. She wrote me a letter. I wrote her a letter back. We hadn’t seen each other in many, many years. Finally when we got on the phone together — I had my visiting privileges suspended for a long time. Finally, I was getting them back. We’d been talking for about a year. I was on the phone with her. I said, “Look, I just want to warn you. I only have three teeth left. I feel a little self-conscious about it.” There was dead silence on the line for a second. Then I started laughing. It can be a bad place for your teeth. That’s for sure.

Zibby: You wrote throughout the book about so many different losses. I don’t feel like you necessarily framed them as such, but they just kept popping up in one way or another, even your manny, essentially. I thought it was so funny that your dad had a busboy and was like, “He seems like a good nanny.” The next thing you know, he takes care of you intimately for years, which is one method of recruiting babysitters I have not tried yet. Now I’m going to open my mind to that. Even with him being so close to you for so many years and then gets let go of and immediately disappears, that’s a big loss. Even your pet ferret getting eaten by your dog, these are heartbreaking things, particularly at that age and time of life, and then of course as life goes on and more things happen. What do you think those early losses — do you feel like they were as significant as I’m perhaps making them or less so? I know you wrote about them a lot, so clearly you found them to have some importance.

Cameron: Joaquin is somebody that to this day I think about. Sometimes I’ll even think I see him. He was a huge part of my life. That was a difficult loss. Kids are sensitive. In life, things are going to happen. When you’re young, you need people to help you through it. They may not be available. I think they do leave a little scar. You try to figure out a way to deal with it yourself. You don’t, maybe, have all the coping mechanisms at the time. Again, listen, life is — that’s what it is. It’s full of loss and hardship. That’s what builds character. We have the decision to make choices as a result of these things that we go through. Some choices are better than others. Can’t really blame it on Joaquin and my ferret, although I would’ve liked to. I think I told that to the judge.

Zibby: Maybe we could talk about your family in case that played more of a role in some way. You painted such a loving picture of your dad, and your mom at times. You painted her as somewhat inconsistent, I would say, in her availability and emotional availability, physical presence, all of that. You really made your dad seem like he wanted to compensate for having a famous father himself by being a great dad to you and making sure that you didn’t feel the way he had felt, it’s this whole full circle thing, and was really there for you and tried all these things when you did develop your drug addition to help. I wonder looking back, what do you think he could have done or your mom could have done to have prevented your addiction from spiraling in the way that it did, or was it just once it started, there was sort of no way to really reel it back in because you didn’t really want it to stop?

Cameron: Quite frankly, I got to a place in my life where there was nothing that they could do. It’s interesting. My father, one of his bones that he had with my mother — my mother was so young when she had me, nineteen or twenty. My father’s career was just getting going. It’s a career that takes a lot of time and a lot of focus, a lot of attention. My father often felt like he had two kids to take care of, my mother and myself. My mother was so young. She didn’t like the business. She’s European and came to the States and met my father and didn’t like the business and was angry and lonely as well. She was still extremely young herself. They had a lot of things going on. I was always loved and well-cared for, but maybe just didn’t have the attention that I was needing. That kind of forced me to look elsewhere for that love and attention. Starting as younger teenager, I started finding that with a group of people that were rough around the edges. That’s not to say they were bad people or anything like that. It’s just people that were going down that road that would eventually lead to some issues. That’s what happened. I remember at one point in my life I was wondering to myself, if I’m not in prison, who are these people in prison? I was wrapped up in all these different things. But I was. I just wasn’t physically there yet. I was well on my way. That’s it. If you’re living that life, there’s a place for you if you continue to live that way.

Zibby: There were so many moments where you just should not have survived, the car crash. There were just so many, the drugs, the seizures. It’s a miracle that we’re even on a Zoom call right now. It’s crazy. What do you attribute that to? Do you feel like you have some sort of perspective on life having lived through all of this that perhaps others of us can’t have or don’t necessary have having cheated death so many times?

Cameron: I have been fortunate. I have angels watching over me. I’ve certainly not been careful with my life and often not valued it properly. Maybe subconsciously there was some purpose behind that. I guess that wasn’t to be my story. That wasn’t going to be the way that my story was going to end, whether I wanted it to or not. I like to think that there’s something that I have to offer before it’s all said and done.

Zibby: Obviously, one thing you have to offer is your story which is going to help so many other people who are struggling. Hopefully, they’ll all be reading it and can get back on track or get what they need out of it. It’s an amazing gift when somebody shares their story so openly like that. That’s awesome. You also talked about dealing with your dad’s cancer diagnosis and treatment and how you felt about it. I was just wondering if you could share a little about that period of time and what it was like for you.

Cameron: For those of you that haven’t read my book, I found out that he had cancer by one of the inmates that I was on the compound with. He came up to me and he said, “Hey Cam, I’m so sorry to hear about your dad.” I said, “What are you talking about? I just saw him. What are you talking about?” He said, “I heard he has cancer.” I said, “No, I don’t think so.” Then a couple more steps, and then somebody else came up to me. I went in and got on the payphone and tried to call him. He didn’t answer, so I called a friend of mine. The first thing she said when she picked up the phone was, “I’m so sorry to hear about your father.” I said, “What’s going on? What happened?” She told me that it came out in the press that he had stage four throat cancer. I sat with that for a little while and obviously tried to get in touch with him. When I finally did, he felt bad. He said that he didn’t want me to worry. I’ll tell you, it really gave me a real respect for what these cancer survivors go through. I saw him about three weeks before he started his treatments, which was the radiation and the chemotherapy. He looked great. He looked healthy, how he always does. Then he came to visit me about a month and a half after his last treatment. It was maybe three months or something like that. I’ve never seen a body change so drastically in such a short amount of time. It’s a real fight. Fortunately, he made it. One of the extremely unfortunate things about going away for so long is that life goes on, and as a result, you lose people. It happens a lot. I was hoping that I would make it home to see him. He got better long before I came home, so that was good.

Zibby: Wow. What is your relationship like now with your family? Do you feel like you’ve repaired any of the riffs that may have occurred over time? Do you feel this, still, enormous support? What’s it like now? How has it been with the book as an entrant into the family as well?

Cameron: Ironically enough or oddly enough, everybody was really behind the book, which was nice. Obviously, that’s important to me. That made it easier. My relationship with my mother and father are fantastic. It’s taken some time, particularly with my father. So many years, I had been living in a certain way. Nobody knows that better than the people that are closest to you. To be living like that for so many years and then to go away to a place like prison — as I said, I spent most of my time in higher-security prisons, which is a different reality in and of itself. It’s like, who is coming home? I think everybody was kind of protecting themselves a little bit or maybe even more than a little bit. It’s just consistency. I did a lot of growing up while I was away. I wish I was able to do that before having to go to that length. I feel like I made the most of it, if that can be possible in a situation like that. The consistency that I’ve shown since coming home is everything. We’re in a great place.

Zibby: That’s great. Tell me more about your current writing. You had mentioned that you are working on screenplays, that this book is being adapted. Tell me about all your exciting projects now.

Cameron: It’s nice. Things are really just starting to come together. It was three years of awkwardness and trying to find my stride. Then it just takes a little bit of time. Things start to come together. The acting is something I jumped right into. I finished filming my first feature-length film in years in January of this year, so the beginning of this year. I just finally saw a cut of it. It looked good. It’s been submitted to all the film festivals and stuff like that. We’ll see what happens with that. Then I’ve been writing a lot during this quarantine. I hate to say it’s been great because I know it’s been so hard and difficult for so many people. As somebody that’s procrastinated a lot in life and wasted a lot of time, I went into this quarantine with a mindset like, I have these projects that I really want to accomplish. I feel like I did so. I finished my first screenplay just a couple of weeks ago. Now I’m just refining it a little bit. It’s too long. That’s a good problem to have, at least initially. Then the book, Long Way Home, people have been interested in it. I teamed up with a production company called Fabrik and this amazing writer/showrunner named Tom Fontana. He’s adapted it into an ongoing series. It’s been exciting for me. It’s been great to work with these guys in particular. Tom, he’s a great writer. It’s nice because it’s a fictionalized version of my story. It’s just based on my story, but all the characters will be fictionalized. Of course, to make it an ongoing series, you need some wiggle room. It’s been exciting. It’s been very exciting.

Zibby: You have a chapter, Orange Isn’t the New Black. This is going to be the counter show to that one or a companion piece in a way.

Cameron: It looks like it’s going to be interesting. I’m excited to see what comes of that.

Zibby: This is a big question. What has it been like being a dad? How does it feel to have a daughter and to have a whole new perspective on life as a parent? What’s that been like for you?

Cameron: It’s been interesting. In regards to my own mother and father, it’s been nice for them I think in particular because it sort of balanced the playing field a little bit. It’s given me some insights into what they were dealing with and what a parent deals with. My daughter is my biggest teacher. She really is. I’ve learned so much about myself and really grown as a human being since she’s graced us with her presence. It’s pretty special, as you know.

Zibby: That’s awesome. What advice would you have to aspiring authors, somebody who wants to write their story? Maybe it’s not quite as dramatic as yours, but wants to get it down, wants it to help other people. What would you say?

Cameron: Nothing happens until you put the pen to paper or until you start banging away on the keyboard. That’s the first thing with anything. Even with this screenplay, I’ve been thinking about it for so long. Screenplays is an art in and of itself. I was a little intimidated by it. It was just, write the screenplay and start figuring it out and banging away. It comes. I don’t think one writes with the intention of making some big best seller. That’s great if that happens, but you just write because you have something inside of you that you want to share or that needs to come out. You got to get started. I think if you get started and it’s something that’s for you, then you’ll see that. You’ll go from there. If you get started and you’re like, no, this is not for me, then you can move on to the project.

Zibby: Screenwriting’s not for me. Next. I also was wondering, are you still friends — in the book, you mentioned there was a boy named John you were friends with. You filmed a movie together. Your dad started to help and he was like, “Well, this production value’s gone up a lot.” Are you still friends with that guy?

Cameron: I am.

Zibby: You are. That’s awesome.

Cameron: He’s one of my oldest friends. He’s actually a very successful producer now in his own right here in town. He’s doing fantastic. He just had a little boy. He’s married and lives about fifteen minutes away from me. We snuck a couple visits in during quarantine, but really just been keeping to ourselves like most people. Looking forward to seeing my friends and everything. Him and I have also been through a lot. We have a lot of funny stories together.

Zibby: That’s great. I know there are going to be a lot of questions. Thank you for chatting with me, particularly the pre-chat. Now maybe I’ll take some questions for you from the audience. What do you want to accomplish with the rest of your life? Good luck with this question.

Cameron: It’s a good question. It’s an important question. When it’s all said and done, I want to feel like I’ve been useful. That’s the short answer to a question that could possibly be endless. I want to feel useful. I wanted to be inspired. I want to have a purpose. I think that goes hand in hand with being useful.

Zibby: Good answer. If anybody else has questions, they can put them in the Q&A here on Zoom, and Cameron will answer them.

Cameron: I have a question for you, Zibby. How is your brother?

Zibby: My brother’s great. He’s actually a big producer in your town now too. He runs Black Bear Pictures. It’s funny. I didn’t actually even talk to him before this interview to get some inside scoop for you at sleepaway camp, but I’m going to have to.

Cameron: That’s probably better.

Zibby: Yeah. He may or may not have been kicked out himself. I’ll just leave it at that.

Cameron: Maybe I’ll cross paths with him one of these days.

Zibby: You should.

Cameron: Tell him I said hello.

Zibby: I will. I absolutely will. Now we have a lot more questions. Although, you can keep asking me questions. We can turn this whole thing around. Okay, thank you for sharing your story. You are so positive after going through so much. How did you come to terms with accepting yourself and your faults and mistakes?

Cameron: It’s a process. It starts with forgiveness. I certainly didn’t come up with it, but a little slogan that’s always stuck with me is, forgive, but you never forget. The forgiveness, especially forgiving yourself, allows you to begin to heal. The part of about not forgetting allows you to build from some of those choices. I’ve paid a high price for some of my decisions. The way I look at it is I might as well get what I paid for.

Zibby: I love that. Have you gotten involved in any prison support or work to reform?

Cameron: Yeah. One of the things that I’m involved in now is these voting rights for people that have either done their time — for instance, supervised release is something that men and women are under once they finish their term in federal prison. In some states, they allow it. In some states, they don’t. Look, I put it like this. Our judicial system and our government is not known for being particularly warm and fuzzy. If the time that you do is enough for them to call it even, then it should be enough for you to have your voting rights back at the very least. It goes on from there. It’s really a struggle for men and women coming home. I’m very fortunate in that I have the support of my family. They believed in me. They never gave up on me. The reality for most men and women coming home is that they have nothing. To even get a job or a place to live being a convicted felon is really difficult. I think it’s something that we need to work on. That’s what you’re doing. You’re going there. You’re paying the ultimate price for your misgivings.

Zibby: Someone is asking, what was your relationship with your grandfather?

Cameron: My relationship with my grandfather has always been amazing. My grandfather is notoriously a tough guy and was hard on my father and my uncles. With me, he was always full of love. Him and I had a lot in common. My grandfather was an athlete and a wrestler. I was as well. We’re similar in a lot of ways and always had a lovely relationship. I was really blessed because I moved out to LA and got to spend the last years of his life with him. I moved about ten minutes away from him. I was over at his house two, three times a week, bringing my daughter, Vivian, and then just spending time with him myself. That was special for me, for sure, and hopefully for him as well.

Zibby: As you learn in the book, he often slipped you fifty-dollar bills whenever he said hello to you. That’s always nice.

Cameron: That’s right, right on up through my twenties.

Zibby: Do you have a relationship with Judaism? Has it provided you with a way of gaining a purpose in life?

Cameron: My grandfather was bar mitzvahed in his seventies. He made a full circle. He was brought up Jewish and then wandered away from religion or spirituality in general and then made his way back. I’m not so religious. I was never raised in any particular religion. I am very spiritual. I believe in a higher power. I take little bits and pieces from all the different religions that I feel resonate with me. Having said that, my younger brother is bar mitzvahed. He’s in Brown now and lives in a Jewish dorm and is doing his Shabbat dinners and things like that. My younger sister has been bat mitzvahed. They really resonate with Judaism.

Zibby: My daughter’s bat mitzvah is on Saturday.

Cameron: Nice.

Zibby: It’s on Zoom, so you can come if you want. We could do this again.

Cameron: Yes. They’ll be like, who is that guy?

Zibby: Someone says, I’m Steve from Houston. Thank you for this awesome presentation. What is your favorite all-time movie not including one your father and/or grandfather starred in?

Cameron: My favorite all-time movie, that is tough. I’m going to throw out a couple just off the top of my head. True Romance keeps jumping into my mind for some reason. Apocalypse Now is great. I really love Legends of the Fall. Maybe I just had a big crush on Brad Pitt. I don’t know. He’s pretty good-looking. I just think of the cover. If anybody’s seen it, it’s him with that mane. It’s a great movie. I loved it. I love period pieces, so Dances with Wolves. I love Star Wars. I love all of the Star Wars. I like sci-fi stuff.

Zibby: I’m going to vote for When Harry Met Sally if anybody’s wondering.

Cameron: I was going to say that one.

Zibby: Yeah, I bet. Did the title of Mandela’s book, Long Walk to Freedom, influence you in the choice of the title for your book?

Cameron: Not consciously, but may have subconscious. That was a great book. I loved it. Long Way Home, the impetus for that title is a band called Supertramp which is a seventies rock band. They have one song called “Take the Long Way Home.” I’ve always loved that song. Then I felt like that’s what I was doing, is taking the long way home. When I say home, it’s not the destination. It’s not the physical destination. I guess it’s sort of arriving to a destination in my mind and in my heart. Family’s probably a big part of that as well. That’s where that came — come here. Want to say hello? Come here.

Zibby: Are we getting a cameo?

Cameron: No, she’s gone. She just came to grab her toy.

Zibby: Some stage fright. Do you do any speaking engagements or work with teens that have an addiction problem?

Cameron: I have. I’ve been doing a lot of these book tour things, but haven’t been doing much just during this quarantine recently. Working with juveniles, particularly juveniles that are in that sort of trouble age which in my opinion is from thirteen, sixteen, seventeen, I think that’s a critical age. I know just because I know myself when I was that age. It’s important for these kids to be able to talk to somebody or listen to somebody that has been through some of the same stuff or else they don’t want to hear about it. That’s definitely something that I will get more involved in moving forward. I like to think that as my career starts gaining momentum it will allow me to reach more people. I feel like with success comes responsibility. That’s certainly one of the areas that I care about and I think is important.

Zibby: Someone says, you mentioned all your reading in solitary. Are you still an avid reader?

Cameron: I am. I love to read. We were talking about it before the show. Yeah, I do. I love reading.

Zibby: What are you reading now? What’s on your bedside table?

Cameron: I’ve been so focused on the screenplay that I haven’t been doing too much reading. I have this book of prose from World War I authors that I’ve been reading at night before I go to sleep. I don’t remember the name offhand. Want to come say hello?

Zibby: Hi, cutie. She’s so cute. I like the pink hat. There’s nothing like an indoors hat for a winter hat appearance. So cute.

Cameron: Do you have any good — I know you said The Vanishing Half.

Zibby: Yes, that was very good. I’m reading this book about parenthood you might enjoy called Small Animals: Parenthood in the Age of Fear by Kim Brooks. Very interesting.

Cameron: Very cool.

Zibby: That’s at the top of my stack at the moment. I have more questions for you. Sorry, a couple more. Are you close to Catherine, your dad’s wife? Somebody else was asking about those siblings of yours.

Cameron: Those siblings of mine.

Zibby: I was going to say those half-siblings. I wanted to make sure I was right before I said that. Yes, half-siblings. What is your relationship like with your stepmother and half-siblings? There it is.

Cameron: I’ll answer the question about Catherine first. My relationship with her has always been fantastic. I was my father’s best man at their wedding. Just always had a really good relationship. As I said, when I came home, my father in particular was protecting himself and was not really opening up to me as much as I would have liked. I think Catherine was one of my champions in sort of pushing him to open himself back up to me a little bit. I thought that was beautiful. My brother, Dylan, is amazing. He’s at Brown. He’s a tremendous actor. He’s super involved in politics. In fact, he started his own political group called Make Room, makeroom.org. It’s a really great movement. He’s just an amazing young man. My sister, Carys, is gorgeous, sweet as can be. She’s in boarding school in Switzerland. She’s extremely smart and also an amazing actress in her own right. We’ll certainly be hearing from them. We have already, actually. My sister’s got a hundred-plus thousand followers or something on Instagram. She’s miles ahead of her old brother.

Zibby: Wow. All right, I’ll have to start following her. I think we’re almost done with questions. What advice would you give employers with regard to hiring former prisoners?

Cameron: Like I said —

Child: — Toy.

Zibby: Give them toys.

Cameron: Give them toys, exactly. If somebody has served their time and they’re looking for a job — this has been my experience anyway. Some of the smartest people that I’ve met, I met in prison. Sometimes life is difficult and people make some bad decisions. One thing I know for sure that is none of us are the same person now that we were ten years before that. We weren’t the same person then that we were ten years before that. People evolve. People make changes. When you’ve given years of your life based on some decisions that you’ve made and you come home and you’re looking for a different kind of life, I think you might find that they’ll probably be some of the best employees that you can find.

Zibby: Last one. What was it like working with your family in It Runs in the Family?

Cameron: That was an amazing experience. Working with my father and my grandfather as well as my grandmother — my dear grandmother, Diana Darrid, was also in the movie. It was fantastic. It was a lot fun. For me, I was young. I was twenty-two or something like that. Working with the two of them, it was just such a good feeling for me. I will treasure that.

Zibby: Excellent. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for doing this for the JCC. Thanks for letting us seriously into your home in the chaos that is having a small child which I am very familiar with.

Cameron: I’m sorry about that. We made it. We did pretty good. I thought it was going to fall apart earlier, but we did pretty good.

Zibby: No, it was great.

Cameron: Thank you. I had a lot of fun with you, Zibby. I look forward to seeing you somewhere down the road or staying in touch. Thank you all for having me. I appreciate it. It’s been really a lot of fun.