Caitlin Moran, WHAT ABOUT MEN?: A Feminist Answers the Question

Caitlin Moran, WHAT ABOUT MEN?: A Feminist Answers the Question

Zibby interviews New York Times bestselling author Caitlin Moran about her thoughtful and provocative new book, WHAT ABOUT MEN: A FEMINIST ANSWERS THE QUESTION. Caitlin shares her insights on modern masculinity. The discussion delves into how young men often feel overlooked and the impact of influencers who promote outdated, misogynistic views. Ultimately, Caitlin emphasizes the need for more positive, progressive conversations about masculinity. The episode also touches on Caitlin’s personal experiences, her thoughts on reading and writing, and her upcoming projects, including a humorous sci-fi novel. This podcast episode is ideal for listeners interested in gender dynamics, feminism, the creative process of writing, and fans of Caitlin Moran’s work.


Zibby Owens: Hi.

Caitlin Moran: Hey, my darling. How are you doing?

Zibby: I’m good. How are you doing?

Caitlin: Really good. Oh, god, your background looks so nice.

Zibby: Thank you. Yes, my library office.

Caitlin: You’ve color coded the spines.

Zibby: I did.

Caitlin: I have written a column in defense of this. I remember a couple of years ago, loads of men, I noticed, got really shitty about this and were like, people who color code their books, they’re just doing it to look nice. That’s not how a proper book reader would do it. First of all, what’s wrong with things looking nice? Secondly, if you know and love your books well enough, you know what color that spine is. It’s just as easy to find them when they’re color coded as it is to put them in alphabetical order. It looks amazing. Well done.

Zibby: Thank you. I see things in color anyway. I’m like, oh, it’s that book. It’s green. That’s how my mind works, so it works for me.

Caitlin: I know the color of all my books. I found it really patronizing, the amount of men who were like, why wouldn’t you do it in alphabetical order? Because it looks nicer in color.

Zibby: Speaking about men, let’s talk about your book.

Caitlin: I am ready.

Zibby: What About Men?: A Feminist Answers the Question.

Caitlin: That’s me. I did that. I remember typing it. That’s literally my book.

Zibby: You explain in the book why this happened and how you had gone to a number of events, and people would raise their hand and say, what about men? You came up with your traditional funny, bright, witty response. Blah, blah, blah; ha, ha, ha. Then you thought, okay, I should delve deeper into this. Go ahead. Delve deeper. Tell us why.

Caitlin: Obviously, I’d spent the last decade writing about women and girls and feminism. I’m a woman. I’m team tits. That’s my clan. I will always look after my girls and my women. First of all, every time I did an event, the second or third question I would be asked was, yeah, yeah, yeah, you’ve talked about the women, but what about men? Either from peevish men who clearly didn’t like the fact we’d been talking about women or girls for an hour, but often from mothers and concerned wives who were like, we now live in a world where there isn’t really any problem or anything that can happen to a woman that there isn’t a blog about or a Beyoncé song about or a book about, but I feel like we haven’t got those resources for our men. If my teenage daughter has a problem, I can point her towards a million things. When my teenage son has a problem, I don’t know where to turn to. I was like, yeah, okay, that feels like a question I could answer. I can dig into that and see if I can find some solutions. I’ll sort it out myself, I thought.

Zibby: You started with a Zoom with your — I think it was one of your daughters and some guy friends. All of a sudden, just all of this stuff came pouring out about the things that these young men were facing. The range was quite widespread. Then of course, you go into a lot of the issues in the book. What were you surprised to hear?

Caitlin: I suddenly realized it was quite deep water. I thought that I could do a book that was half funny and warm and just things about the kind of things men wear or their reluctance to go to the doctors or slightly deeper stuff like the fact that men find it difficult to maintain friendships in the way that women did. I very quickly realized that there’s a lot of anger out there, particularly from young men. This event I did was half girls, half boys, age fifteen and sixteen. It was on International Women’s Day, our special day. We get a day! I thought we’d be talking about women and feminism, but these teenage boys were not having any of it. It was the first time I’d come across this anger that you often see in young men now. I’m always intrigued when you see anger in a cohort of people. Angry people are usually scared people because anger is just fear brought to the boil. They kept saying things like, we always talk about women now. We never talk about men. Women are winning now, and the boys are losing. Feminism has gone too far.

It was at this point I realized that the reach of, to a certain degree, people like Jordan B. Peterson, but certainly people like Andrew Tate, that very extreme misogynist online advice and role modeling, had found an audience in these boys. If you’re a fifteen-year-old boy, you’ve grown up during this last ten years of feminism, and all you’ve heard is things like, the future is female, or people saying, typical men, typical straight white men, toxic masculinity. Although to old people like us, this seems like a relatively recent thing that we’ve been so positive about women, to these young boys, that’s all they’ve known. They’ve just grown up in a time when we’re really concentrating our conversations about women and girls. When these right-wing misogynists come along and go, “No, men should go back to ruling the world. Women need to go back in the kitchen. I’m going to talk about masculinity. I’m going to make young men feel good about themselves again,” that’s often the first time they’ve heard someone talk positively about their problems.

Obviously, I think that the solutions that these kind of guys — aren’t actually that useful. Certainly, not to women, and neither to young men either. I was like, we need there to be a book. We need to start a conversation that is more reasonable, more liberal, more progressive, and more about seeing the humanity in each other, helping these boys who feel quite lost, talking about what’s good about men, talking about the positive side of masculinity, and also exploring how — I think there are often some sort of feminists who think — I’ve been accused of it. When it was announced that I was doing this book, a lot of women were like, oh, you’re going over to the boys’ side now. You’re not going to talk about women anymore. You’ve betrayed us. As any woman knows, half of the problems that women have are men. It’s unhappy men, angry men, abusive men, men who won’t listen to you at work. We can’t fix the girls until we fix the boys. Half of feminism’s work is making sure that we have good, healthy, well-balanced, loving, secure young men because that’s one of the quickest ways to make sure that we’ve got happy, secure young women.

Zibby: Do you find that men are reading this book, or is it more for women who love men and want to share it with them?

Caitlin: As I’m sure you’re aware and will have discussed before, eighty percent of books that are bought are bought by women. Also, we’re the people who like talking about humans and ourselves. If you go into any bookshop, there’s a massive section for women covering every single stage of our lives, but there is no section called “men.” There is no “men” section in a bookshop. The book is kind of written knowing that it probably will be women who will be interested in it and will buy it. Half the chapters are about problems that you might have found with your partner or your husband. The other half are problems that you might have encountered in your teenage son or the young men in your life. What I always like to do is volunteer myself as the person to start a difficult conversation. If it’s a conversation about pornography or loneliness or mental health or anything that might be quite tricky to start a conversation about, the idea is that you read one of my books, read the chapter about that, and then you go, Caitlin says there’s a problem with watching extreme online pornography in teenagers. Have you found that? You get to blame me for starting the difficult conversation.

Zibby: Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

Caitlin: It’s my job. I love to start a difficult conversation.

Zibby: Where do you think that comes from?

Caitlin: I think being the oldest of eight children. My parents, they were very shame-filled people. They just would never talk about — I think this was quite common in their generation — anything to do with sex but also emotions, mental health, physical health. We were all very fat, unhealthy children. We were brought up in a house where you never acknowledged that you had a body. You were just like a brain in a jar. The idea of doing exercise or eating healthily was seen as something that other people might do on another planet. At a very early age, I was so aware of how the silence around these difficult conversations was driving all of my siblings crazy. I was like, I’m going to be bold. I’m going to be the one that starts this conversation. What’s the worst that could happen?

Zibby: I know we’ve discussed this on past podcasts we have done together, but when did you decide that you could use your voice on a wider scale than just your siblings?

Caitlin: My parents decided to homeschool all of us. We didn’t go to school. We were very poor. We were raised on welfare. Once you’ve been home educated for a couple of years and you know you’re not going to do any exams and you’re not going to have any qualifications, you’re like, how will I earn money or ever leave this house which is very crowded and quite depressing? The only thing that I knew that I could do as a job was to write because that’s what Jo March does in Little Women. That was my primary source of information about the outside world at that time. I just started writing books when I was thirteen. The first one was published when I was sixteen. Then I started sending pieces off to newspapers hoping that I could get regular income from that. By the time I was eighteen, I was a columnist on The Times of London, the newspaper. Just seeing the response that the things that I wrote had as a young working-class woman — there’s not many of those on broadsheet newspapers, and so I was able to write about these things that no one else was really writing about. Straight away, the response from readers was like, you made me feel normal. I didn’t think anyone else had noticed that. This thing that I’d previously thought was a really awkward situation, the way you wrote about it made me feel relaxed about it, and I look at it differently. That’s a really addictive feeling, knowing that you’ve made someone you’ve never met laugh or change their mind or feel better about themselves. That was the start of the addiction that I still have to this day.

Zibby: Your addiction just ends up benefiting more and more people, so it’s all good. Keep going.

Caitlin: Good addictions you hear so little about, right? That and my addiction to loading the dishwasher correctly. I feel like I’ve taught many people how to correctly load a dishwasher. Not many people read the manual. They’re putting their nonstick pans in there. They’re putting the knives in the wrong way around. I like to see myself as some kind of educational bureau to tell people, don’t put your chopping knives in the dishwasher. They will become blunt. You must wash them under the tap.

Zibby: I actually spent the weekend — I hate washing knives in the sink, and so sometimes I just leave them on the side. I’ll do all the pots and pans. I handwash all of these. Then I left for the very last minute Sunday night, the three knives that I had used this weekend. Finally, I washed them. I don’t know, I have a block against it. I’m so annoyed they don’t go in the dishwasher.

Caitlin: I know. They need to invent ones that don’t become blunt. I know they do blunt in the dishwasher, but how? How is water making a cutting blade blunt? It just doesn’t make sense. I don’t understand the science bit. How is that happening? Is something getting in there and doing it while we’re not looking? How does that happen?

Zibby: Why wouldn’t it happen in the sink, which is filled with water?

Caitlin: Surely, when it’s chopping, that’s when it’s getting blunt. When you put it under some water in the dishwater, surely, that’s a rest period for it. I would’ve thought it would recuperate and become sharper again. the science on this one.

Zibby: I’m going to have to take the Caitlin Moran dishwasher class next. I have no spatial relations. It is actually always a challenge. I’m like, I know these should all fit, but that’s not how my brain works.

Caitlin: I know, the Tetris of it. I’ve thrown away things before that were perfectly good cups or plates because they didn’t quite fit in the dishwasher properly. I was like, you don’t work in my system. You’ve got to go. I’m sorry. I’m just out of time.

Zibby: So, men are not having this conversation, is your point?

Caitlin: No, they’re not, or about so many things. I love all the things of femininity and all the things of masculinity. There’s no aspect of being a woman or a man that is inherently bad. I think we can have big conversations about these things. All of humanity’s spectrum is fabulous. There are certain things that, as things are at the moment, women are better at than men. One of them is about talking about our problems. It is about being honest about this stuff. It never used to be the case. Women were full of shame. We’d go to the grave not talking about things that happen to our bodies or in our lives. We are now in an era where women are so good at starting conversations about difficult things and putting amazing videos on TikTok or making speeches about it or writing books about it or making funny movies about it. Men are at least one, if not two, generations behind in that. I wanted to share womankind’s current technological advancement in being able to start awkward conversations about loneliness, about fear, about anxiety, about gender roles. We’ve spent the last fifty years going, what is a woman? How could it change? What kind of new women could we invent?

There isn’t that kind of conversation happening for men. Teenage girls’ bedroom walls are covered in all these new kinds of heroes. We’re inventing new kinds of women every day. There isn’t quite that inventiveness yet for our young male role models. I wanted to write something that I hoped would just make men go, oh, I’d like that; maybe for younger men, going, maybe this is why I’m angry with women. It’s that I’m actually a bit envious of how positive young women are, how much support there is on social media. If you’re a big girl and you post a picture of yourself in your bikini with your rolls and your stretch marks, you’ll have all your friends going, yes, queen. Fire emoji. Dancing girl emoji. If you are a fat boy posting a picture of yourself in your swimming trunks, your friends would not be going, yes, king, and posting fire emojis and stuff. It would be thought to be really weird. I think teenage boys must miss the kind of support and positivity that teenage girls give each other all the time. That makes me sad. I want our young boys to have what we’ve given to our young girls. There’s no reason why we shouldn’t.

Zibby: I have four kids, including a teenage boy. What can you tell that teenage boy? What can I take away? What can moms out there do to help teenage boys without making them feel second fiddle but empowering them enough to want to continue to be so respectful of women and collaborative and all of the good things but then also maybe open the door every so often for a woman?

Caitlin: I think often, what provokes generosity of spirit in anyone, let alone teenage boys, is when you feel that you have been listened to and people are listening out for you. What I heard from some of the teenage boys who were becoming more radicalized and angry about women is basically, when it came down to it, as I said before, they felt that unfairness that there wasn’t as much conversation about their problems. Talking to teenagers, and particularly boys, about their problems can sometimes be difficult. All the studies are that if you sit down and hold a teenage boy’s hand and stare him in the eyes and go, let’s talk about your problems, he will find that very uncomfortable, as I think we all would, but they find it particularly difficult. The key is to maybe do it when you’re driving. You’re in the front. He’s in the back. It’s not that kind of direct eye contact. One of the things that I found very useful is rather than saying, “Are you having this problem?” go, “Are any of your friends having this problem? Are any of your friends, for instance, watching online pornography and are worried about it? Are any of your friends lonely? Are any of your friends worried about their mental health?” When teenagers start talking about their friends, they’re usually talking about themselves. You get an idea of what’s going on. That’s an easier way to start the conversation.

It’s being aware that for a lot of teenagers, admitting that you have a problem, particularly if it’s a problem with being bullied or being friendless or something to do with your sexuality or your mental health, you will probably feel embarrassed and ashamed talking to your parents about it because you don’t want to say, I’m not popular. You don’t want to say, I’m struggling. We’re very good as parents at always saying, the only thing that matters to me is that you’re happy. When a child comes to you and has to go, “I failed in that thing you told me was important. I’m not happy –” Of course, if we knew that’s what they were thinking, we’d be thinking, oh, no, no, no. Obviously, I want you to be happy, but you haven’t failed if you’re not. That’s not how teenagers often hear it. They want to keep the secret from us. They think it will make us too sad to know that they’re sad. You only find out about it when there’s some kind of emergency. It’s being able to keep those conversations all the time so things don’t build up.

Zibby: Interesting. Who are you going to tackle next? What group? What concept? What thing? Aging? Where are we going after this? What’s your next book? What are you thinking about?

Caitlin: The next nonfiction book — I’m forty-eight. I’m waiting for the menopause. I’m looking forward to that next phase. That will be finding out what that adventure is like, going into it wholeheartedly and then being able to report and be humorous about what it’s like. So far, that hasn’t happened. My HRT seems to be working very well. The next book, it’s a cheerful sci-fi. A lot of sci-fi is quite gloomy about the future. This book, I’ve written for my girlfriends of my age — I’m forty-eight — the ones who are newly divorced and going out there and dating. They’re coming back looking quite shocked and going, there just aren’t that many good men out there. We just don’t know how to find one. This is about a group of girls who work in tech. They start inventing perfect robot husbands because they can’t find men who would make perfect husbands. It all goes very wrong because what we think we want in a man, if we actually programmed it into a robot, we’d find it a bit creepy or a bit weird. We’d have to press the off button and start again quite a few times. It’s like a gender-flip version of Weird Science, that John Hughes movies from the eighties.

Zibby: I remember that. Kelly LeBrock, isn’t that who it was?

Caitlin: Yeah, and that famous scene where there are teenage boys making a girl, and the first thing they do is make her have boobies that are so big they’re the size of a house.

Zibby: Then they’re like, keyboard, .

Caitlin: There’s a female version of that scene, which is enormous fun to write. The next one’s going to be a funny thing about, what do we want from men? If we were in charge of making perfect men, would we do a better job than men have themselves?

Zibby: Very interesting. I’m curious about your thoughts on the Barbie movie. Did you watch it? Tell me what you thought about that.

Caitlin: The most important thing was that I found a dog-friendly screening of it in London, so I could take my dog with me. When the movie ended, the best thing I’ve ever seen with my eyes happened. The lights went up. I turned around. I was at the front. The entire theater was dog head, human head, dog head, human head. All the dogs were just sitting next to their owners. They’d really enjoyed the Barbie movie. I loved it. I wept. I hooted with laughter. I deliberately avoided all the spoilers. I loved being shocked by the realization that Greta Gerwig has made it for the moms rather than the kids. If you had to work it out, on balance, it’s about mothers. Of course, little girls are going to want to go and see this because it’s Barbie, but their moms are going to take them. I can talk to the moms now and tell their story and how they feel about stuff. I wept at the generosity of spirit. I enjoyed all the outfits. The scene where men are trying to impress women by playing guitar at them and women are having to do their “thank you for playing your guitar at me” faces, the cinema I was in erupted at that one. Every single woman has had a guitar played at her in that style. Oh, my word. I loved it. Did you? Were you a lover? Did you adore it?

Zibby: I did. I really enjoyed it. The issues, though, I keep thinking about, the construct of the women’s world — I think about it in relation to this latest book of yours too — a world with women on the dollar bills versus men and things we take for granted and how things are so systemically set up in one way that you don’t even pay attention to it. Then what if that were flipped? It’s so on point for…

Caitlin: That was the most beautiful thing, wasn’t it? I presume it’s been the same in the States, but in the UK, there’s just been this tidal wave of men going on social media, usually dads of my age or even granddads, going, oh, my gosh, I get the patriarchy now. When I saw the world that was ruled by women and it was literally like the world that we live in but with a gender flip, I get it. I finally get it. When people would talk about the patriarchy, I’d put my fingers in my ears or go, that sounds horrible. Now I get it. I’ve seen it. I think that was the greatest genius of all. It’s a billion-dollar movie that everybody went to see and love that showed in the most fun way possible what it is that crusty old feminists like you and I have been banging for ages going, it’s literally a thing. Don’t you see it? One of my feminist friends talks about your feminist glasses. She’s like, when you first get into feminism, you put your glasses on, and you see the world as it is. After thirty seconds, you go, no, it hurts. It’s too much. You have to take them back off again. Then you gradually build up being able to wear your feminist glasses for longer and longer and actually seeing the world as it is. I just think the Barbie movie put everyone’s feminist glasses for on the duration of the movie. Everyone finally saw these big concepts that we’ve spent nearly a century talking about, but in a movie with a ballet dance sequence in the middle of it with Ryan Gosling. That’s perfection.

Zibby: It was perfection. It’s so funny. America Ferrera’s speech, by the way, that was my favorite, the speech at the end. Oh, my gosh. I was like, this is what I say. This is it. I can’t take it all, can’t do it all.

Caitlin: I’m so sure that speech has been printed out and put on a million bedroom walls because it’s there in a nutshell, isn’t it? You’ve got to be pretty, but not too pretty. You’ve got to be ambitious, but not too ambitious. Yeah, that’s it. There’s a one-percent thing in the center of being a perfect woman. If you stray on either side of that, you’re going to get shot down by one or the others. That’s the tightrope that Janelle Monáe sings about. That’s where we live.

Zibby: I did not even consider printing that out, but I would like to read it again, to be honest with you. We’re both writers, readers. I can take it in even more with words. I think I should read it. Maybe I could read it out loud. We could include a link in this podcast or something.

Caitlin: Yes. I want to put it next to — Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie did a similar speech a couple of years ago that Beyoncé used song now. I want to put those two side by side and just have them as companion pieces. Between Chimamanda and Greta Gerwig, that’s the whole thing covered.

Zibby: She was just on this podcast. My guest host interviewed her. Yeah, I know.

Caitlin: Oh, my god, how was she? I worship .

Zibby: I didn’t do it. I have two guest hosts who occasionally — Alisha Fernandez Miranda, she lives in Scotland. She did that interview. I was like, oh, my god. I couldn’t do the timing or something. She said it was unbelievable, amazing. I can’t wait to listen to it.

Caitlin: She’s one of my absolute queens. I just think she’s so gracious. She’s so funny. She’s so smart. She’s just absolute perfection. Oh, my gosh. I feel like I’m kind of on the same screen that she would’ve been on. I feel almost like I’m sitting in a chair that she sat in now, being on this podcast with you, wriggling around and enjoying being in the remnants of her aura. That’s really .

Zibby: Who else do you love reading, even not for anything super important or mission driven, but just for fun? Is there not such a thing? What do you like to read?

Caitlin: My all-time GOATs are E. Nesbit, who wrote Five Children and It and The Wouldbegoods — I don’t know if they were ever big in the States. They’re turn of the century. They’re always about kids who don’t have mothers. They’re just very, very funny books. In one of them, she has one of the all-time great narrative machines in that it’s an unreliable narrator. It’s in the first person. It’s one of five children. The narrator’s going, these are the five children. There’s Oswold. There is Alice. There are whatever. I’m not going to tell you which one of us it is that is telling this story. Then within the next page, they’re going, and Oswold was very noble but didn’t want to say anything about it. It was Oswold’s idea, but he didn’t want to make a point of it. Oswold was extraordinarily clever in this moment and saved the day. He thinks that he’s being subtle about being the narrator, and he’s not. It’s just constant comic perfection. I increasingly think I don’t want to read anything other than Virginia Woolf. Then I’ll also just read every bonkbuster going. What else? Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, I adored, as everyone in the world has adored. I gave it to my kids. It was one of the first books they’d read in ten years that they really enjoyed. I read everything, really. I’m really lucky, I’m a speed reader, so I can read a book in a day, pretty much. I just sort of hoover up everything. I even enjoy reading things that are awful so I can read out loud sentences that I think are quite poor and go, that’s slipshod. That metaphor doesn’t actually make sense if you look at it. That’s very poor.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh, you’re so funny. Tell me about this purple streak in your hair, which I am only now realizing is purple because I keep looking in your eyes. It’s very cool.

Caitlin: It shouldn’t be. When you use a toner — I’ve got gray that kind of goes yellowy, so I always use a toner on it. There’s a kind of toner roulette. The bottles never really tell you what’s inside, I don’t think, correctly. It’s always a bit of a, whoa. I always dye my hair last thing at night. When I wake up in the morning, you walk up to the mirror, and you’re like, what hair have I been given overnight? This is slightly more purple than I would’ve wanted, I have to say. I’m going to rock it, but it was supposed to be more icy blue. It’s going quite well with this jumper.

Zibby: It is. It really is.

Caitlin: I’m going to style it out, make it look like — as with everything in life, if you make a mistake, you simply have to walk around as if you meant to do it on purpose. That’s what I’m doing now. I’m trying to make it look like I chose this hair color. Between you and me, it was supposed to be gray.

Zibby: It looks very cool. Very cool. What advice do you have for aspiring authors?

Caitlin: Don’t go on a writing course. Don’t read anything about writing. Don’t take any lessons in writing because until very, very recently, no writer in the history of the universe had done that. How you learn to write is by reading. It’s like a digestive system. You eat up the books that you love. Only read books that you love, unless you particularly enjoy being like me and reading a book for hateful reasons and being scathing about how bad the metaphors are. Just only read things that you love. If you get bored with them halfway through, you don’t have to finish it. Then after you’ve read ten things that you absolutely adore, you’ll feel your fingers itching. You want to go and play the game. That’s what all writers are doing. They’re writing these books and sort of throwing a ball up in the air and going, you catch it. What would you do with this story? What would you do with this idea? Come and join in. I sometimes think that when we do classes and stuff, it’s like dissecting an animal or a baby and then expecting it to jump off the table and run off and have fun again. I don’t really believe in picking books apart. You should just be writing because you’re so excited about writing. Obviously, if classes work for you, that’s great. If it’s worked for you, totally do it.

I know so many people who get dispirited when they do these classes. They’re like, there’s all these rules you’ve got to bear in mind. You’re supposed to use this kind of word at this point in the sentence. You’ve got to do this kind of structure. We know what stories are like. If you can talk, you can write. If you can read a book and enjoy it, then you could write a book, and the kind of book that you would enjoy. I just don’t think it needs to be as hard or as arduous as a lot of people make out. It should be the most joy in the world. The biggest thing is — a lot of people go, this chapter is really difficult. This chapter is taking me six months to write. I’m just going to keep on plowing through it and working really hard. If that chapter is not working, don’t bother writing that chapter. Take the story where it is. Then all you need to do in the next chapter is go, anyway, that was three months ago. Some stuff happened. It was all really boring. I’m going to get back into the fun bit now. You don’t have to write the boring bits. You don’t have to write the bits that are difficult. Just do all the fun bits instead.

Zibby: Love it. Amazing. Caitlin, thank you so much. Thanks for coming back on “Moms Don’t Have Time to Read Books.” Thanks for our discussion about men and everything else. Thanks.

Caitlin: Gosh, my absolute pleasure. This is my happy place. Thank you so much for having me back on it.

Zibby: Anytime. Thank you. Buh-bye.

Caitlin: Buh-bye.

WHAT ABOUT MEN?: A Feminist Answers the Question by Caitlin Moran

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