In this special episode (a live event for the Streicker Center sponsored by Zibby Media!), award-winning actor, model, and New York Times bestselling author Brooke Shields chats with SiriusXM's Jessica Shaw about her new memoir, BROOKE SHIELDS IS NOT ALLOWED TO GET OLD, an intimate and empowering portrait of a woman embracing the prime of her life by bucking the narrative about women and aging. The two touch on outdated myths, refusing to recede into the shadows, and writing your own midlife story.

Transcript:

Zibby: Hi, this is Zibby Owens, and you're listening to Totally Booked with Zibby. Formerly, moms don't have time to read books. In my daily show, I interview today's latest, best selling, buzziest, or underrated authors and story creators whose work, I think, is worth your time. As a bookstore owner, publisher, author, and obviously podcaster, I get a comprehensive look at everything that's coming out and spend my time curating the best books.

So you don't have to stay in the know, get insider insights and connect with guests like I do every single day. For more information, go to zibbymedia. com and follow me on Instagram.

Brooke Shields is the author of Brooke Shields is Not Allowed to Get Old, Thoughts on Aging as a Woman. This was an event at the Temple Emanuel Stryker Center. I was supposed to moderate this event and had been really looking forward to it, but it fell over the time period where I have been canceling events due to the immediacy of the LA fire and its impact on me.

And so, Jessica Shaw. who is a serious XM star, took over and interviewed Brooke on my behalf. Either way, here is the conversation, which I hope you will enjoy. FYI, I listened to the entire book of Brooke Shields Is Not Allowed to Get Old on audiobook while I was in LA the two weeks before the fire. And I will never forget driving through the streets listening to Brooke as she helps me laugh and feel good about aging and being a woman and so much else.

And I am a huge fan. This is one of my most anticipated books of 2025. A quick bio. Brooke Shields is an actress, author, mother, and wife. She is the author of two previous books, Down Came the Rain, and There Was a Little Girl. She resides with her family in New York City, where she was born. Thank you, Brooke.

Jessica: Thank you. There's so much to talk about with Brooke about this book that we were just It's already getting into it. Welcome everyone. I'm Jessica Jessica Shaw. So thankful to Brooke Shields for being here to talk about, Brooke Shields is not allowed to get old, which, which I gobbled up in one evening and it is.

It's not Chekhov. It, listen, it is. so thoughtful and there are these moments, you read it as, as you all will, where you just say, yes, yes, Brooke. So I'm curious when, when I think about the books that you've written, when I think about down came the rain, which you wrote about postpartum depression. To me, it segues so perfectly into this book as far as honesty and talking about your life, but also talking about your life in a way that reflects what so many other women are going through, what so many of your friends are going through.

So was there a specific Moment or impetus that you thought this this is what I am writing next. 

Brooke: It actually happened upon me I was in the midst of Starting my own company, which is called commence and I was building this brand and we were really growing and my agent said why don't you write a book about becoming a CEO in your late 50s and I said that's not a whole book, you know I mean it but but but as I was going through the process It was such a new world for me to be in and there were so many struggles And I had to learn so much so quickly that I thought okay Maybe it's a good jumping off place because first of all, why is it so?

Unbelievable that a woman could could be this old and start a company like it was shocking You know that a woman this age could could actually start something new and had something to offer Right, and so then I started getting mad and that's that helped me write the book and I said but But rather than it just being sort of a self indulgent analysis, see, I've written about sad things and drama and overcoming obstacles like that, but I had not, this, I didn't want this to be a, you know, sad book about, oh, it's, you know, this is the end of the line.

I wanted it to really be a celebration of what this era in a woman's life really means. And I said, well, ooh, um, yeah, let it, let it rip. It's all good. But I wanted to include statistics and research and all of the numbers that when you hear them, you cannot believe. What's happening to women and the representation in marketing and advertising and all of it.

And I thought, this will be an interesting correlation to say, this is why this is happening. This is why this is happening. 

Jessica: Well, tell, I mean, the research is extraordinary and you cite so many studies and, and it's fascinating the way that, um, the number, the trillions of dollars. That women over 50 kind of control and are in charge of the fact.

I think one of the statistics you cite that one in four Americans is a woman over 50. I mean, there it's so.. 

Brooke: Now the millennials are turning 40. So this it's just getting bigger. There's one millennial right here. 

Jessica: Pause for the millennials. 

Brooke: But there are numbers are getting bigger and the demographic is getting bigger and even more diverse.

Jessica: Yeah. And it's one thing, you know, I imagine that you have these thoughts and then another thing when you then go and dig into the research and they validate so much of what you've been saying. seeing and thinking and feeling and talking to your friends about. So what was, what was the research process like for you with this book?

Brooke: So I'd never written with another person. And I, I said, look, I don't want to know the research first. I want to really sort of take myself through writing this book as if I wasn't going to do research. And simultaneously she was brilliant because she She was in my brain and she did extensive research and would come back to me with copious facts and, and, and situations and then they would unbelievably parallel and they would match up with a story that I had just told.

I didn't want my, the way I wrote. the book to be colored in any way by facts that I knew, and I didn't want it to sound too literary. Sometimes when I get too fact based or too, um, insecure about how I write, I then want to sound literary and I want to sound educated and sometimes that is not a good, not a good thing.

I wanted it to be more raw. 

Jessica: You, just a minute or two ago, you were talking about how you feel like you'd written sad things and you wanted this to be something, something different and I have to say one of the things that I loved so much about the book is that in your talking about aging, it's not one or the other.

It's not, woe is me, I'm aging. Nor is it like, yes, this rocks. Wrinkles are the best. You know, and 

Brooke: I love when my knees touch my ankles. 

Jessica: Yes. 

Brooke: Yeah. 

Jessica: By the way, there's an a plus tip in there for that. I will say not going to spoil it, but it's interesting because we live in. And I feel like we live in a culture where we don't embrace the gray.

We don't embrace the non binary with, with anything. It's either, it feels to me like if you are over 50, you either have to be like, it's awesome. No, you know, no negotiation on that or like throwing in the towel. And one thing that you do so beautifully in this book is just honestly talk about it from all sides.

Brooke: But that's what life is, you know, I mean, puberty sucks, right, but there's something wonderful about it as well, you know, it's all beginning, yet you have acne and cramps and all that kind of stuff, and it's so interesting when you look back, everything has such a duality to it, and I think women have such a comp, they're so complex, and they've lived, we've lived so many different lives that it's, it's on, that people don't know exactly what to do with it.

So it's much easier to jump right over us and go right to menopause, you know, and it's great that we're having the conversation about menopause because nobody was talking about postpartum, nobody was talking about menopause. It's an icky topic. And so I appreciate that. It's, you, I always say this. You're either the hot girl at the bar, or you're in Depends.

Like, that's how it, one, one, one fourth of all, only one fourth of all advertisers feature a woman. Um, in their inner sixties. And to me, the, the dynamic nature of what it is to have lived this long and still have more to live, is what's interesting. It's always the duality of things that are interesting to me, because we, our brains are computers.

If we ask them only negative questions, we come up with only negative answers. It's very clear. If you start to look at asking yourself more positive, it's not kumbaya positive, but like, really analyze. The things that make you different and extraordinary, you start coming into this era of your life with strength and confidence, and not arrogance, not vanity, not those things that I used to associate confidence and beauty with.

You learn about it differently, and to me, I'd be lying if I said, Oh, that's great, I can't wait to, whatever, not be able to sneeze without peeing in my pants. Like, that's how, like, I'm not gonna, that's not great, right? But, or cough, and so it's kind of like, but why don't we just sort of laugh at it and then talk about the other stuff that accompanies this era?

Jessica: Yeah, yeah, I mean you asked that question about what is What is confidence? And I'm curious for you if you noticed if you felt that sort of line and you noticed Oh, I'm in this place. We're almost like somehow I am appreciating my talent my accomplishments my intelligence in a way that's not But you know dot dot dot, but I'm not XYZ. 

Brooke: I used to fear not being relatable, you know, and I, and I would say, well, I want to be relatable.

And then as I got a little older, I'm like, I don't want to be too relatable. Like they always say like wish fulfillment, right? And I think women have a tendency to, well, okay, this is what I've spent many decades doing, is make myself smaller so as not to be a threat. So as to have to, to sort of walk into a room and, and be not, non threatening, you know, and I think that historically that's what happens with women is, you know, be, be soft spoken, don't rock the boat, don't do this, and that's been happening since the dawn of time.

And it was in writing this book that I started feeling, wait a minute, I can step into the bigness, if you will, of being in this era and I don't, I don't have to apologize. for it. And I think that that's amazing. Like, I, I used to apologize. And by the way, we still do this. If you, like, if you say something or do something or you, yeah, bumping into someone, but we always say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

And I'm like, why don't we just say, excuse me. But we say, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And then you get to this age and you think, I don't want to be sorry anymore. I don't want to keep putting myself down. It's exhausting. 

Jessica: Yeah, yes. 

And we like girls grow up doing that and women do that. And at a certain point, sometimes I feel like I did that last night at a cafe and then I caught myself and I was like, I'm not sorry.

You know, it's okay. No crisis just happened. And it's interesting to have those moments where You take a breath and you observe the things that you have gotten so used to doing over and over whether it's something you're saying or something you're thinking. 

Brooke: And, and starting Commence, by the way, if you want to know more about it, go to shopcommence.

com and you can see what we're doing. I've poured my life into this and my heart and soul and money and, and it's It's been a huge learning curve, but, but, in doing this and then having to go out and ask for money and having to talk to VC guys to have to like go into these very male, the presence of the male was so, it permeated these meetings and walking in first sort of like a little girl and then sort of getting scolded by these men and then kind of coming out saying like, wow, that didn't feel like it fit.

Cool. It just didn't feel appropriate. And then gaining confidence and sort of trying to talk to people that start with condescension and say, you know what, I don't really deserve to be condescended to, but you have to learn how to navigate that type of a dialogue within these situations. So the discomfort of The fear of starting a business and the fear of starting a business and whether I was 20 or 55 when I started this is what led me to feeling like I could walk into a room bigger than I'd ever done before.

Jessica: Can you please tell the story in the book, there are many incredible stories of what happened when you were going to get funding for Commence and someone mansplained to you because it's one of my, it's one of my favorite moments. 

Brooke: Yeah, so I was in a meeting and there was a big, big VC guy and his team and we sort of did our initial pitch and showed them our deck and, and before even asking a question, this guy started telling me what we were doing wrong.

And how we weren't going to be successful. And why, and how. You know all the guys you're going to want money from? Well, they've already traded you in for the younger model. So they're not going to understand. And their wives are not going to be able to tell them why it's a good company. I mean, it, this just, it started to go on.

And I finally said, Ah, excuse me, excuse me. I said, I'm not going to pretend that what I'm going to say is not going to sound disrespectful, but it's the only thing that I can think to say right now. I said, but I know your time is valuable and I appreciate you taking it to be with us, but the beauty of this situation is I'm not asking for your opinion.

I'm asking for your money. And it came out of my mouth and I thought, Oh my god, am I a bitch? Like, is that the way it's gonna be? But if a guy had said something like that, it would have been like, yeah, he's a great businessman. You know? And he kind of went, And I said, really, I'm not trying to be insulting.

I'm just holding my own. We're early. It's, you probably only invest millions and millions and millions of dollars. We're not there yet. We'll come back to you. And, and so I sort of acknowledged that we'll come back to him. You know, but it was from a place of strength rather than arrogance or disrespect. I was respecting myself before the other person.

And we had worked so hard on all of this. You know, and it means so much to me, and it has such a beautiful future, that I thought, I'm not gonna let some guy who's got some complex make me smaller. Yeah, and mansplain your business to you. And by the way, every other, every woman, even VC that we met, never, only offered, not advice, But things that had worked for them, so there was this different way instead of you you you it was well You know what something we've learned in this process is and it opened up a conversation and we took all their advice Because they weren't trying to talk down to us They were also trying to lift us up and that was something that we found as a sort of a through line in the book too.

Jessica: Yeah, I it's interesting that you say that because it's something you write about also and In, especially in talking about menopause, I mean, there were fascinating statistics how few women learn about menopause from their doctors. How few doctors? Yeah, learn it in medical school. And that's insane to me.

Yes, it's it is totally not okay on any level and it's it's horrifying and it makes you Oh, oh, right. Why is misogyny baked into the medical establishment and doctors simply don't know. And it's the it's an opportunity also in the way that women are there for each other. How do you learn about things?

like menopause or different things that women go through, you go to your friend. You go to your friends, you, sometimes you go online, you go to your community, you go to your sisters, you know, whatever it is. And is that something that as you were navigating that and like, God, who am I going to go to talk about hormones?

You know, did you have your people? 

Brooke: I had not, not only did I have my people, but I did have some medical professionals who were, and some were men. And most were women, and they had an open conversation with me about it. But there's so much in the medical profession that women experience differently. You know, a woman's expression of pain is calibrated differently.

to medical professionals than a man's expression of pain. And it was so, it's so interesting how I, I was in the hospital for quite some time with a broken femur. And I wanted to understand more about what my options were and what was happening, because I was there a long time by myself. And I just listened to everything they said.

And so one day The infectious disease person came in because I had an infection and I said, I asked him a question and it was, it was an educated, say that 10 times fast, it was an educated question in so far as I had listened to everything that they had said prior. over the course of the few weeks. And instead of just answering my question, this guy turned to me and said, Have you been Googling WebMD?

And I thought, No. I said, and if I did, I'd be convinced you're trying to kill me. I was like, but the sort of the audacity of I said, I've been listening to everything that you all have been saying in front of me as if I don't exist. And I know they were on shifts, and there's so many people, but it is so hard to learn how to self advocate, because then when you do, you're a difficult patient.

And, you know, learning all of these things and then learn going into the research for that and learning what what that was. And I couldn't ha I didn't have my girlfriends. I could call them, but this was a dire medical sort of emergency. But the what I also learned about that is The female friendships, to actually answer your question, I'm sorry.

The female friendships that I rely on have also changed within this era of my life. We, we rely on each other differently and we, the, the nature of those friendships has, has changed, but I rely on fewer, but more deeply. 

Jessica: That's interesting. Tell me, tell me more about that. That's so, because I think, Friendships, I mean the conversation about friendship as we get older, in particular women's friendships, and, and I will say one of the things I found very moving in the book, you write about your, your friendship with Allie Wentworth, someone you've worked with, and multiple times now, and, and who was a dear friend to you, and how you met her.

A lot of people, there's this narrative of you don't make deep friendships after 20, and there in your book, it's yet one more thing that you're like, Um, actually, no. 

Brooke: Well, so we measure friendships with how long we've known each other, and, you know, it's, it's just, it's an interesting dynamic, and women do that, you know, when you're in grade school, you're like, I'll be your best friend, and, and, and then as you Kind of go through teen years and a little bit later it becomes how many friends you have is it indicates How popular you are or where you are in your life?

And then as you get older you really start to realize that I've fewer friends. It's not about the number it's about the the level of friendship in the intimacy the friendship the trust and all of that and meeting a woman In my fifties, everybody, everybody would say like, how long have you guys known each other?

Because we have a very cohesive dynamic together and we're funny and, and we bounce off each other. And my first answer was always not as long. As it feels like it should be to be this loving of a person and, and needing them in their, your life. And I worried that it didn't count, because I hadn't known her for 20 years.

And you also realize you're diff I'm different now. There's still me, but there's, um, I'm a different person. So I, I need things differently from friends. And to meet a new friend in this age just felt so, right, it was a revelation to me. And I think that that's important. We shouldn't hinder ourselves or, or be, it's okay.

How great is it that you can keep adding to sort of the fabric of your, of your whole life, you know? And women friendships sort of was, you know, it's like, oh, it's just Mahjong, you know? Or quilt making or something like that. Like we get together like a bunch of bitties and we just, you know, bitch about everybody.

It's like, no, when you're really surrounded by Your, your, your friend peers, the level of conversation is so brilliant and so diverse that it's just empowering. It's exciting. 

Jessica: Yeah, and sometimes I feel like because you are, like, all of us are, are more, we know who we are more, that you don't need to claw through those layers of BS to get to a level of intimacy with emotional intimacy with a friend.

Brooke: It can be a shorthand, and it doesn't always happen. When it does, it's, it's refreshing, and it does feel like a gift, and I, there was one day that I, I just respect her so much, and I love how she mothers, and I, and I love her sense of humor, and, and her brain, and and I said to her one day, it was a moment of vulnerability, I said, I just can't believe you're my friend.

And she said, don't do that. Don't do that. And I said, oh, God, I was. I was going back to high school thinking that she was one of the cool kids and she had invited me to the party, you know. And she's like, that's not, we're past that. And I, I thought, wow, yeah, you're right. You're right. But aren't you happy that I'm your friend?

I was like

Jessica: Tell me about when you were sitting down to write, when you have all these ideas and you have things I want to dig into and I want to talk about, what is that process like for you? Are you like a list maker, like I want to hit this, this, this and this? Are you a like, Just vomit out all the words, person.

Brooke: First of all, I say a prayer that my husband's not going to read any of it. Because the headlines that have come out now, he's like, Really? Really? You had to tell that story about me? I'm not, I don't make lists. I usually make lists with everything else. When I'm writing a memoir, I really do have to just sort of vomit it out and, and have an editor edit it and then ask me questions with regards to what.

They need embellishment of or what they need more of and I don't ever read it back like I don't read it back until that chapter is completely done and Because I again will try to make myself smarter and Use all the words I learned, you know, and I don't ever want this type of and I only write So I don't, my joke is I don't have original thought, but I just only, I write about things that have happened and my perception of them.

And so I can't really start to analyze it, otherwise I'll kind of craft it differently. So, and by the time you get a few chapters without reading them, and then you have to go back and kind of add the edits, it's fresh to me. And I can hear my voice in it, and I'm not judging it, and I'm not trying to fix it.

Jessica: The parts where you write about the medical establishment and different things and like some of the things that made, you know, all sorts of headlines, you had a procedure done to you, you did not ask for, a doctor just felt like, oh, I know what you want. It's, it's a horrifying moment and even there's a moment where an anesthesiologist just, like, just wants to tell you certain things and you kind of shut that down.

In that moment, it feels like the, the medical establishment is what, it's that conversation of how women are treated, like particularly women over 40, over 50 are treated in the medical establishment, is one that. It is so new in, in that we are talking about and I felt like you just go in there and saying, Hey, I'm not super psyched to like share this with the world, but I'm going to because we need to start talking about this.

I thought was, was. It's so important. 

Brooke: And you know, there's so much shame surrounding so many things that we go through medically, and, you know, I chose to be really honest about these certain, I had a procedure, and it was in the, I don't know what you can say in a temple, my, area. Um, and, uh, and it was a medical situation.

And so at the end of it, I came out of the surgery and I went back for my checkup. And the guy literally looked at me and I'm going to get struck down in a minute. But he said, I, uh, tightened you up a little bit. I was I was just so dumbfounded and then shame, I felt shame and I was just, I didn't know what to do and I, I went home, I didn't even tell my husband, I was so, just, I couldn't believe how helpless I was and then how I was supposed to be thankful, you know, as if I wanted to be like a porn star or something and that was important, like I was just, I didn't, and then I didn't want to, Sue him or anything, because then, again, we would have been talking about that area since they've been speaking about it since I was 11.

And people have been obsessed with it for some reason. And my virginity and all that, and you just kind of go like, oh God, do I want to do this? But then, in writing the book, I thought, we have to know this stuff. That's not fair. It's just, you know, I had a cone biopsy to get rid of cancer in my early 30s, and I would have loved to have been told that it might make it difficult for me to get pregnant, but I was never told that.

So, I, we were trying an IVF seven times on all of these things that you go through, and you just feel more and more like a failure. And you don't had a doctor said, listen, you might want to take precautions or do whatever. And, you know, maybe you won't have to go through your belly button to get pregnant.

Like, the stuff is so crazy that happens. And if you are a public figure, it, it's tricky because I couldn't be not honest. I had to be ready for it being, you know, the the headlines. But in thinking about the bigger picture of women in this era of their lives, they deserve to feel validated in, in their advocacy of their, their selves.

And I think that that's, to have a story like this, it just, it's a good jumping off place to start a conversation. 

Jessica: Yeah. And I, I, I mean, I imagine. And once you started, once you were writing about it and, and talking about it, I have to imagine that friends said, Oh, yes, an ex happened to me and, and people have been coming up to you saying, yeah, because it does feel like you opened a door to have a conversation about things that we all know, but don't necessarily articulate.

Brooke: And, you know, sometimes it just takes someone starting the conversation, and then you feel like there's a context within which you can be safe, and so that's why this was, that's why I included all of it, because, you know, it was a conversation starter, I guess, but it was also really to sort of give women And, and the fact that we even have to ask for permission for anything, like, Oh, giving, this book gives women permission.

I didn't set out to do, do that. But when you hear someone else's story, it does feel validating. If you've been dealing with something in private, or you're ashamed of something, or you're worried about it. 

Jessica: Yeah, you tell a, a wonderful anecdote about Gloria Steinem, and how she, she told, she tells you at, at some point, I'm gonna butcher her quote, she says it much more.

One articulately, but something about how so many things with women start in a small, in that small room, just sitting around, talking, and the way that that, if that amplifies another person's voice in another one, and then it becomes It becomes something that we're all talking about in a movement. 

Brooke: And it, and she said that too, and she, she said, you know, and, and what was, what her, people were, we were all saying, we were sort of sitting in this, on this couch, just discussing women and where we all are in the world, and this was some years back.

And someone said, well, but how, how can we change it? How can we make a difference? And she said, don't kid yourself. Every single important movement did begin in a basement, over a kitchen table, on a small couch, like, with small people, and it, and the conversation gets fed, and it goes out, and you know, that is, that is what a real movement is, you know, and you, you You can't set out to do it, but you start it.

You ignite it. 

Jessica: This actually leads perfectly into one of the questions, which is, one of my favorite sayings, I think from Cory Katz, if I'm reading that right, one of my favorite sayings is empowered women empower women. And I get very upset when we aren't kind to each other. How can we do better at lifting each other up and being Our own cheerleaders.

Brooke: I, I think you have to start small. You know, a friend of mine once said, I wish you could see yourself the way I see you. And if, and I thought, well, that's really interesting. There was this one advertisement for Dove soap. I, and what they did was they got a court artist. People were paired in twos, women, and the artist was behind a curtain, and each woman came in and he said, Describe yourself, and then describe the person that you're partnered with.

And he drew a picture not seeing them. And when they put all these pictures up side by side, when women described themselves, It made them cry. They looked angry. They looked, you know, they, one said something like, Oh, I've got a witchy nose. And then the other woman who was describing her said, Oh, she's got this, like, gladiator look to her and this, like, strong Italian, you know, jawline and nose.

And, and she was more beautiful in the way other people, that other partner was describing her. And I think that we have to ask our friends. To help us through it and when you start small like if you if you watch your friend self deprecating too much I mean, I use self deprecation as humor for a long time, but I also realized that I got really good at it And if you do it too well You start believing all of those funny, negative things about yourself, and I stop my friends when they do it, and it started them, and then they, so you've kind of just, you've got to start small, and I've started this, I don't make resolutions in January, but I, I try to do one thing that's, that is going to make a difference just in my heart.

And I randomly walk up to people and compliment them on something. You know, I love the color of your hair. Or, that's a great lipstick color. Or whatever it is. And, and, the, the, it's like the, the little light went off. And someone will always just say, Oh, thank you. You know, and that's it. And you just walk on and you're kind of anonymous.

And I think that it's, That matters and those little teeny seeds actually do matter, I think. 

Jessica: Brooke also goes up to teen girls, and you tell you, on the street, and she, you have this great moment, this anecdote that you tell in the book of when you walked up to a group of girls who were just trashing themselves.

Brooke: It was a bit forward.

I mean, I, you know, they didn't ask for my opinion, you know. Um, and, uh, and, but as a, as a woman and mother of two daughters, I heard them, they were taking, you know, selfies and pictures or whatever, and they kept saying, okay, well, don't show my fat. And I don't want to look, I don't want to look, I don't want to look chubby in this.

And, and, well, I don't like, And it was just so pervasively hurtful to themselves and, and, you know, and I thought, I just was like, oh, I cannot, I can't listen to this, and I just went up to them, I said, can you guys please stop doing that to yourselves? You're so beautiful, you're so lovely, you're all so different, and if you don't stop doing it, you're gonna be so tired by the time you're in your fifties.

Like, really. I was like, I mean, I just, you didn't ask, I know, but I just want to spare you from beating yourself up for, for no reason. Just look at the, look at how beautiful and look at your lives up in front of you, you know, so. 

Jessica: And I love that it's, I love what Ali said to you, and I love that sometimes with, with self deprecating, because it can, sort of take hold and, and minimize your voice and, and what you ultimately perceive is your right to speak about certain things.

And I, I was thinking about the moment in the book where you write about the, uh, brilliant op ed piece you wrote for the New York Times after, about postpartum depression, after Tom Cruise had gone on the Today Show and talked about, uh, you shouldn't take antidepressants for it or whatever, and how someone in your life said, told you not to write, encouraged you not to write it, not to validate it, not to write it.

And I know that, and you talk about this in different, when you think about the sliding doors of your life and different things you had done. I was wondering if you think about that moment, what if I hadn't done that? Because to me, that was such an incredibly important piece to write, both for everyone who read it and also for you.

Brooke: You know, I I think about it often because I felt like in that moment I wasn't doing it selfishly and it wasn't for myself and I Remember thinking oh hell no, like you you don't get to do that to us You don't have ovaries first of all, so you don't get to talk about Postpartum depression and what it is to go through birth childbirth So, you know, I got angry and then I just got really calm And I, I just, I think about it often because it was, but the woman who told me, she, I fired her, she was a publicist, and she said, don't, you know, answer, don't answer, just, just stay quiet.

And I thought, wow, what a disservice, because this was an opportunity, actually, to have it be heard differently. And he actually made it. better for us because women all over were starting to stand up and say, no, you don't get to decide what, what we do or what our experience is. So I try to carry that with me.

I was scared. You know, I was scared. I would like never get a job in Hollywood again like that. You know, I went through the actress thing and you, but then you step back and you think, no, no, I cannot be irresponsible. I need to. I need, I need to be able to have a platform for women's voices to be heard.

Jessica: Yeah. And, and that idea of I'm scared and I'm still doing it. 

Brooke: Yeah, and and also one more thing about like the duality of those things like when you choose to talk about something when you don't There is some I have two Stunning daughters. They're just they're so different and they're so Every we all do, you know, we all have the best children and we just do it is and we love them so much and and they make us crazy and all of the above but There's something about this age, too, where they are coming into their own.

And, and they're, everything is high and tight and perky and, you know, and you're just like, Oh, God, why didn't I appreciate it when I had that? And, you know, now when I walk down the street with them, you know, They're the ones that are, are looked up and down. And then the, the gaze immediately goes to them.

And in that, in that second, I have all these mixed emotions. Like, what, what are you looking at my baby? I will, I will hurt you. Don't you dare. And then, aren't they beautiful? Aren't they so creepy? You know, and then also, you're not looking at me. And you're trying, it's like, oh God, is that a terrible thing?

Or did I But you have to I kind of own it and say, yeah, it's, this part's their turn, but I also bring to the table something so different and something, and so what if I don't look 15 anymore, 18 or whatever? That's not the point of this age. And we chase beauty and I'm all for it. I'm all for anything that makes you feel your best.

To look more like yourself, not to look like somebody you were. 

Jessica: What are, I'm curious what, yeah, seriously, when you have conversations with your daughters, what is, I mean, the way that we grew up is so different from how they're growing up, even as far as messages in the media, not totally different, but a little bit, and how do they approach, I mean, when you write about aging, like, what are, what's their perspective that's different from yours?

Brooke: Well, they have a lot more confidence. And they're very sort of righteous about it. And so it's interesting to have conversations with them where they're saying things to, you know, they stare at themselves and they just, everything is like, you know, and, and, you know, I'm like, wow, what are you doing? And that, but there's something kind of, Great about it because they're celebrating their selves in a way.

There's a whole other part of that which I think is, you know, frightening with Instagram and with social media and the comparison. I think that's a whole different conversation, but they are the ones that then tell me mom. You know, wear a bikini. Don't, don't hide. Don't only want to wear muumuu's because you feel whatever, you're curvy or whatever it is.

And they're helping me be okay with celebrating myself. And that was That's kind of a fresh perspective. But they are, they're very clear about what their boundaries are, what they, what they celebrate in how they look and the differences that they have. And they're not trying to be completely homogenized, which I think is a start.

And I'm glad that they, they have that. 

Jessica: I wanted to ask you about your, the industry that you've done so much in, in, in Hollywood and you have, uh, speaking of those statistics, 20 percent of movie characters, this is research that Gina Davis's incredible center has done, 20 percent of movie characters are over 50 and of those, 25 percent are women.

And more often than not, they're presented as senile, homebound, feeble. And frumpy. So as someone in, in that industry are, I mean, what is it like to navigate? 

Brooke: I'm lucky in so far as I've sort of hooked into comedy and, and there in comedy you get a little bit more of an, of an opportunity to, to do different things and so I've sort of found.

a bit of a niche, so to speak, and it's been powerful for me to be able to go to Netflix and say, no, this is a story about this woman who's in this phase of her life, and it, and have them respond to it. I do think it's changing positively. I do think that is all very true, but I think there is a movement towards celebrating, or at least writing stories about women over 40.

The thing that's happening which I find fascinating is now most of them are just them with a younger, younger, younger man. And, great. I mean, all the power to, to them for that, like, those are cool stories. But, it's so interesting how that was what it had to be, instead of just all the real complexities of what we bring to the table.

So, my agents and I are always pushing forward for, for the roles that I get offered to be more multi equal. Dimensional, you know, and, and we have to just, you kind of just have to keep fighting and then when something's successful, you bring it back to them and say, did you see the ratings on this? Did you see that we ended up number 20 and all time, you know, and, and you bring it back to them and you hope that they see it because you have to, you have to give them an economic reason.

To write those stories and make those movies and that's just true 

Jessica: Yeah You you quote Ada Calhoun in and she says the world ignores over 50, I think, at its peril, and I think that's, that's very true, certainly in Hollywood, in business. I wanted to ask you about Commence, which you mentioned earlier, because you write in the book that you could not have done this, you could not have launched this company other than at this point in your life, and I'm curious why.

Brooke: I had to grow up a lot. I had to go through many stages in my life. My kids were, you know, going to college, and I kind of had to ask myself, like, What do I want this next chapter to be? And do I just keep wanting to raise my hand and say, Pick me, pick me, and have that horrible feeling that actresses have all the time.

And I wanted to have a legacy. And I wanted to create a place for women for specific problems in their lives that they are facing. And beauty was, we started the com, the community and we, it just kept building. And beauty kept coming up in all these Zooms and all these conversations with women all over the world.

And they kept saying, well, what do you do for this? What do you do for this? We need problem solving. And hair became such a really fraught. place for women in this era. And when we started to do the research, we realized that there was, there were no products out there that catered to the 40 plus woman.

And her scalp is different, her hormones are different. And I thought, you know what? This is what I need to do for this next chapter of my life. Because I am getting older, so I don't get the same roles. And, and certain things are, this is, it's a very young industry. Sex will always sell and young youth will always sell and that's great but I wanted something that was going to last in perpetuity and We began with hair.

We call ourselves a care brand People are saying oh, is it a beauty brand? Is it a lifestyle brand? And I said no, we are a care brand. We look at Women, we ask them what they need, and we are coming up with a limited amount of products. And we've grown so much, but I knew that in this era of my life, there had to be something more.

And being a CEO, starting a company, knowing nothing about even the language that's used, has been It feels like I'm back in college, and I just I feel proud to have jumped off this sort of ledge and and to still be, you know, flying. Sometimes I'm up, sometimes I'm down, but I've learned a lot, and I've met some amazing people in the process, and the company just keeps And I can look at this as a legacy, but I can also just look at it as, wow, look at what you did.

You know, you're not over. This isn't the beginning of the end. This is the beginning of the beginning. And listen to your peers and listen to this community because they are screaming to be heard. And they are screaming to not just be relegated to dry and frumpy and all of those things. things that are not the only parts of, of us, you know, we, we have to deal with certain issues, but we, why not approach them from a place of knowledge and empowerment and, and so that's why I just, it, it happened, it grew so quickly and all of a sudden it just, it became this, I can't, I put my heart and soul and, Money and time into because we need it as women.

Jessica: Yeah, and you also write about what a good time it is to do things that you might have, whatever it is, not felt the confidence to do, or not had the focus, or weren't in, you know, the front of your mind because you had other commitments. And also, you write about saying no. When, when you're like, you know what?

No. And the whole world's telling me that's whatever it is. This is the right role to take. This is the right thing to be doing with my life, with my family, whatever it is. And knowing that, actually, I'm gonna not listen to that. 

Brooke: That's, you know, we're not necessarily taught that as, as females. I mean, I grew up always just, say yes, say yes, say yes.

Don't say no, don't be difficult, don't, you know. And you, you just Do it ad nauseum and there's been so many times that I've put myself in situations that have been So much better for other people than for me and there's this obligation that I feel Oh, I have to say yes to that because they need funding and I can get them funding and you know And you just you take on these responsibilities and then you you realize you've not put yourself in the light to shine Necessarily and I was recently offered to perform at Lincoln Center and to to perform a musical Um, with a huge orchestra and I thought you can't say no to this because this is Lincoln Center and it's a, it's Sondheim and it's a 50 piece orchestra and they've never done, you know, a little night music with that large an orchestra and you should feel so lucky and, and I started getting sick with nerves and I finally just I just said, you know what, I cannot say yes to this and I know it would help you, but it won't help me because I will be only relieved when it's over.

And I would be so nervous and I'd be sick and I would just be, I thought, do you really have to at this stage in your life? I mean, I always love to challenge myself and learn, but I wasn't going to be able to go out there and do my best. It wasn't the type of music that sits well in my voice. And footnote, after that, Cynthia Erivo played the character.

So we know it was not exactly a walk in the park. for someone like me to do this and yet they kept saying, Oh, you'll be fine. You'll be fine. And I thought, you don't get to tell me when I'm going to be fine or how I'm going to be fine. But to do it with respect, like that was, it was amazing to me. I said, you know what?

I've just have to say I'm got to protect myself right now. And it was so simple that they didn't try to balk at it and go, no, no, you know, you have to, you have to. And they didn't put the pressure because it was just clear. 

Jessica: Someone in the audience asked, Could you share your experience on ageism in the entertainment industry and how to best navigate as an accomplished female actor?

We kind of touched on that, so I'm just gonna like, um, add to that question. Like, what was the role that you got offered that you were like, hell no. 

Brooke: Not that many. Um, I wish I could say there was a of them. No, I mean, I'm more often put in a position and over my whole career of hoping to get something and being rejected.

You know, that's we don't really know. We don't really recognize all the times that people have gotten rejected. We focus on the one or two that that then are in our consciousness. And so I, you know, in every single one of those, I used to think, Oh, if I just was more talented. It's just better if I and then I became a producer on my own show and had to go through all of the audition process.

And, and what I noticed was by the time they got into the room, they were all pretty talented. Like that's the assumption. One maybe had blonde hair, the other one, you know, was shorter. Maybe the other one had, you know, curly hair and you end up seeing how it's not personal. And so navigating that, that That part of it was a learning experience for me.

I still take it personally, I still feel afraid of auditioning, but it's getting to the point now where I just, I don't feel as personally affronted by it because I do know I have talent. And I just recently got to work with women I really respect and I haven't had that much of an opportunity to do that.

And I was so nervous. I was just, I couldn't, I thought, how can I bring up my game, you know, and, and these women were so lovely, and so gracious, and so supportive, and I really soared in it because I, I started too, too tough, I tried too hard, went to the bathroom, put some water on my face, came back and said to the director, I'm trying too hard and I would like to know if I can just bring it all down.

And the woman said, I was just going to tell you, you don't have to try so hard. It's all right there. Just be in the scene and do it. And that kind of letting go was just, it was really important for me to feel that and then trust it and have it. Not be a disaster, you know. 

Jessica: As you said, you, you produce as well, of course, as acting.

We know you're a really good writer. I mean, Brooke, when are you gonna start, like, writing things for you? I mean, I know you've got, you've got a few things going on in your life, CEO, but do you think about writing scripts for you to do? 

Brooke: I do think about finding books that I would like to have a say in the process of the writing, but find really brilliant women writers, actually, and partner with them.

And, because I've never written a script, I don't necessarily aspire to, but who knows? Directing probably would be the next thing. I don't have a fixed place that I would go, but I'm, I'm always looking for book series that I can, you know, bring to certain networks and can't really say networks anymore, but outlets and, and say like, I, I would like to develop this for myself, you know, and that's, that's a privilege to be able to do that.

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. If you are over 50 and speaking of different jobs and looking for a new job, what is your best advice for, for that? 

Brooke: You know, again, I never really give advice, but what I can say is just don't assume that, that they know better than you do, you know, I mean, I feel like you have to put yourself out there and keep throwing things at the wall and, and, and see what sticks, because the thing that might stick, you might not have ever thought of, and it might be something that's so in your wheelhouse, and you didn't even know to ask that of yourself, but what I have found is every time I get it.

You know, they didn't want me in movies, so I was able to do Broadway. And then, Broadway wasn't happening, so I was able to do TV. It wasn't as if I just bounced around. It was, I, I went to areas that, where the water was warm. You know, and I didn't stipulate, Oh, well that's, you know, that TV is this, or movies are this, and you're only valid if you do that.

And I think we do that when we're looking for our next is we, we try to box ourselves into something that we think we should get or have. And often that just doesn't let us be, and you might be surprised. So I think you just have to keep, no, it doesn't necessarily mean no to you. It just means no at that moment.

And I think that that's, that's helped me keep pushing forward. 

Jessica: You write about that. I think that you're, the quote you say is something is brewing. That you feel things changing and I was wondering what your, what your hope is for the next few years as people like you, you know, open up and, and I don't mean, you know, we were talking about like how annoying it just gives permission for people.

I feel like what you're doing is you are putting a megaphone in front of other people's mouths in a lot of ways with, with this book. What's your hope for the next five years? 

Brooke: I mean. You know, again, I don't set out to, to, I don't want to be a guru. I'm not trying to be a self help person. I'm, you know, I don't, I don't necessarily, I don't want to do a TED talk, you know, but what I'm hoping for is I am so dead set at making this company what I know it can be.

And I'm. I'm so much more confident in my talent that I'm really wanting to manifest what my next real area of creativity is with regards to being an actress. Because that's what I fall asleep thinking of. You know, it's like I wake up thinking about the company, I fall asleep thinking about acting, acting, and what it, and what it really How it feeds my soul.

And so, in a way, those two things are just, there is something brewing in that. Because all the hard work that's led up to this moment, you can just feel that something is shifting. And it couldn't have happened before. You know, I wouldn't have been ready. 

Jessica: Um, last question. You're turning 60 this year in a few months.

Yeah. Um, what an extraordinary life you've led and continue to lead and, and will continue to lead. What's your plan? Like what's your birthday party plan, bro? 

Brooke: So, you know, it's a funny that when you, when you're a kid, you hear numbers like 50 or 60 and you just think. Oh my god, it's that old. Then you get so close to it, and it just feels younger and younger.

It just really does, and, you know, I think I stopped feeling when, like, 38 is where I sort of stopped in my psyche. And I don't want a Big party. I, I don't want, it's too much pressure. There's so many different groups of people in my life that matter to me. And they don't all have to be best friends. Like, you know, you used to think in high school you had to be part of a clique.

And, and, uh, I want to do something special with groups of people. And whether it's traveling, whether it's, you know, there are my theater friends, there are my travel friends, there are my, like, polar plunge friends, you know, and there's, there are my crafting friends, and, you know, there's all these different parts of my life and friendships that I want to celebrate, and I don't want the pressure of everybody in a room and cake, and, I want cake with every single one of them, though.

And not just one big cake. And you deserve it all. I want to take a year. I want to take the whole year of 60 and just celebrate it. 

Jessica: Here, here, we celebrate it with you. The book is Brooke Shields Is Not Allowed to Get Old, Thoughts on Aging. as a woman. It's such a good read. I feel like sometimes we talk about, like, such heavy stuff, and it's also so funny, and it just feels like sitting down with your awesome friend who's super smart and knows every great statistic ever.

Brooke: But you know what? The back of it, people don't realize, is all fact. So when, when we were thinking about the back cover, I thought it would be really funny to have the Brooke fashion head because that was, like, big in the 80s, like, there was a doll of me. I mean, try going to high school when that doll's out.

Like, it does not make for an easy transition to high school. But it was so ridiculous to me that there was a doll of my head and my Barbie body, which my mother, by the way, took Barbie's body and made the The toy company shaved down the boobs so that it was anatomically correct. I was like, Mom, I have a chance at having boobs.

Why would you carve them down? She's like, Well, you are a teenager and that, that is not the way you're built. And I was just like, Ugh. Anyway, so it was such a ridiculous thing to be, to be a doll, like to have a doll of you. Anyway, so I said to my editor, I said, Will you please go? to Instagram and look up all the negative, crazy comments that I don't read because my kids told me not to read anything.

And I said, bring me a whole list of them. And she was like, are you sure? And I said, yeah, just bring me a whole list of them. And I, we picked out the most egregious ones because they were, they are real. Someone said you, uh, she aged like sour milk. I don't even know what that means. Curdled? I don't know.

But it was like, there are so many ridiculous things that get thrown at me by people I've never met. And so when you see the back of the book, it's actually, they are real, I didn't make any of those up. And it was important for me to be able to laugh at it. 

Jessica: Well, it's, um, yeah, the book is incredible. Front, back and middle all throughout.

Brooke Shields, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you to the Stryker Center. Thank you to all of you.