Zibby welcomes author Brooke Bentley and audiobook narrator Julia Whelan to discuss SIDELINE CONFIDENTIAL, a powerful novel that explores the challenges women face in the male-dominated world of professional sports media, inspired by Brooke’s time as the first woman to travel with the Houston Texans. Julia, who narrates the audiobook, shares how they worked together to bring the story to life through her new company, Audiobrary, which champions fair compensation for narrators. The trio dives into the evolution of women’s roles in the NFL, the book’s unexpected connection to the Taylor Swift effect, and the importance of telling authentic stories that break free from traditional romance tropes.'

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome to two fabulous women here together today. See, now this time my intro is better. Uh, Julia Whelan and also Brooke Bentley, author of Sideline Confidential. And Julia, audio narrator extraordinaire and founder of Literati Spirits too, which is amazing. 

Julia: I actually, no, I didn't found Literati Spirits. I was just, no, I did not.

I was just to, uh, Brice is a friend of mine and we collaborated on doing a reading of Pride and Prejudice to launch her line through Audioberry. So I wish I could also add Vodka Tycoon to my list of accomplishments, but that's not. 

Zibby: Instead, more like vodka booster in a way. 

Julia: Yeah, exactly. Collab partnership.

Zibby: Collab in the, in the sports terminology, like an assist. He gave an assist to the vodka. Okay, so we're here today to talk about Sideline Confidential. Brooke, congratulations. Why don't you tell everybody about your novel? 

Brooke: Well, thank you, Zibby. Thank you for having me on. Sideline Confidential, it was a long Birth for this book because it really started when I was working in the NFLI worked for the Houston Texans and I had this idea to write the Devil Wears product that said in the NFL.

But then I kept working and I was in it and then I had children and it, it really kind of, I would write bits and pieces and. In 2020, I took a step back from my career and decided I was going to make this book happen. And I really wanted to write about how it's so hard for young women to jump into the sports media world.

It is a very much a man's world and it's just tricky for young women to navigate. And so, um, yeah, I wrote sideline confidential between. My career and having kids and it came out and it felt like my third child. 

Julia: Oh my gosh. Folks have a way of doing that. 

Zibby: They do. So in the book, Blake is the new PR person for a sports team and gets hired by Johnny who is immediately putting her in her own category.

She gets the Blake bus where she can't even ride the bus with the players, she's not allowed in the locker room, and basically he's raising as many obstacles as humanly possible while still giving somebody a job. Did you feel like that was your experience in professional sports? 

Brooke: Well, yes. So the book is not my memoir.

It's not my story. It's very much fictionalized, but it did draw from my experiences. And when I started working for the Texans, I was the first female to travel with a team. And at that point they, they didn't know really what to do with me. And so I started writing my own bus to games because they were worried I might distract the players, which I thought was so strange because they play in front of 70, 000 plus fans and next to cheerleaders.

And I was like, I am in a gap suit, and I really don't even know what I'm doing right now, how could I be distracting them? So that really gave me the impetus to write this book. Like, I wanted to start with that scene, which the book does start with, when Blake finds out she can't ride the bus with the rest of her co workers.

Then, What happened to me was very different. They decided to put me on the bus with everyone else and everything worked itself out. It did not, it was not dramatic like it is in the book, but in the book, she keeps encountering these obstacles with her boss, which were very much drawn from real life, from other women who've worked for other NFL teams.

And, you know, you really saw what happened with the Washington then Redskins, now they're the commanders and their owner was basically forced to sell the team because of this. Culture of toxicity there and cheerleaders for propositions. There was a note writing scandal. A lot of that I incorporated into my book, so some of it is based on my life, but I will say it is highly fictionalized and a lot of it is based on other women who worked for other NFL teams and how did the two of you team up?

Julia: That is a good question. I think Brooke emailed Audio Brewery, my new company right. 

Brooke: Yes, actually, Zibby, you have a part in this. You may not know this. I saw a post about Julia on your social media, and so then I, I love Julia as a narrator, and I, I find, I found out about Audio Brewery through your post, Zibby, and so I just reached out, and I've been a long time fan of, of all of Julia's audiobooks, and I thought this would just be a dream for her to give Blake a voice.

And, um, I thought she may not know about football, that may not be of interest to her, but maybe somehow I can sell her on this book. 

Julia: And you did, and it came together very quickly, actually, because as soon as, I think this was sometime early summer, and We decided that it would, I read it, and I fell in love with it, and I can talk about that, why this book really resonated with me, but I thought we should try to get this out in time for football season, so scrambled and got it done and got it out there, and, uh, it's really resonating with people, and I love that.

Zibby: And what was it about the book? Are you a football fan? First of all. 

Julia: I'm not a football fan. Brooke had to explain a lot to me so that I sounded like I knew what I was talking about in the audiobook. But what I loved about it is that you could tell this was a writer who had a very specific story that she wanted to tell, and she wasn't getting pushed into making it one thing or the other.

So we've talked about, Brooke and I have talked about this a lot, but I love it as a kind of standalone coming of age story. And all of the usual pitfalls that you might find in a book like that of like, a woman making terrible decisions, self sabotaging decisions that don't actually make any sense, don't really apply here.

Blake is incredibly smart. She prioritizes her work and the goals that she wants to accomplish. And she doesn't really get waylaid, but she is challenged. And so It was refreshing for me as someone who has narrated 600 books and done a lot of, you know, these kinds of stories to see a refreshing female main character who was young, but driven and didn't let herself fall in with the bad crowd or something was just making the right decisions at every step, but learning from the situation that she was thrown into.

So I found that really fresh and exciting. I liked that it wasn't a central love story. This so could easily have become a romance and that would have distracted from what the story is actually about. So everything that made that just unique and its own thing was everything I was totally in for. 

Zibby: That's amazing.

And explain the new company, your company, Audioberry, how that works, why you started it. 

Julia: Oh, thank you. Yeah. So then this is, this is the other thing is that Brooke and I think we connected because Having come out of very difficult kind of male driven fields, we saw each other in that. So, Audiobrary is seeking to fix kind of two problems in audio publishing as I see them.

One is that narrators don't get royalties, and that's an antiquated holdover from back when audiobooks were basically just servicing a library market, and that's not the case anymore. Publishers made two billion dollars in audio alone last year. year and none of that is trickling down to the narrators who helped build the industry.

So I have a problem with that personally, and that's why I needed to create an audio publishing company that would give narrators royalties. And the other thing is we are a direct to consumer distribution channel. So all of our projects, including Sideline Confidential, will be available on other retailers early next year.

I've spent time putting those agreements in place. But when you purchase through Audiobrary, you're really directly supporting the artists because distributors aren't taking. A huge percentage off the top, and you're getting bonus features like Brooke and I did an interview at the end where we talked about the book.

So it's our way of supporting artists and trying to create a sustainable model for audio publishing moving forward. 

Zibby: And Brooke, did you know all about this? What was that an appeal to you or just Julia? Cause she's awesome. 

Brooke: Well, both. I mean, 

Julia: I am the gateway drug though. 

Brooke: She is. So, I mean, I know I'm a huge fan of all of Julia's work, but then when I got to know Audio Brewery and its model, I think that drew me in even more because like Julia mentioned, I was really frustrated when I was going through my traditional publishing queries and then, you know, talking to agents, I was really being pushed to write a romance novel and have Blake fall for the quarterback and have, you know, have the, have a typical romance, you know, I love, I mean, let me, I love, you know, I was like, I read that.

Julia: I want to read it.. 

Brooke: And I am all in for them, but that's just not the book that, what I thought this book would be. And so I was struggling on that front. And so. Cool. When I saw what Julia was doing, I really connected with it and I just kind of was like, all right, I'm going to go for this because I feel like there's a connection there, but she doesn't, but I hopefully I can sell her on and she may not know about yet, but, uh, and it just, it, it came together beautifully and her voice for Blake, it just, the character comes alive in such a wonderful way that I didn't even expect, you know, you have this voice in your mind.

And then when I heard hers and heard her give voice to all the characters. Yeah. They just came alive in my head in, in such a profound way. And so, and I'm hearing that from other people who listen to the book. 

Zibby: So you wrote this right as things were shifting, right? I feel like now there are so many women on the sidelines.

Like it's almost rare not to see a woman interviewing a football player at the end. And my husband is a huge football fan. So if I can stay awake, I watched the night games with him. Definitely, they're on, you know, holiday Sunday and the other day I'm like, oh my gosh, I forgot I made plans and it's a Sunday.

Like, so sorry about that. But I do, uh, you know, I am struck by just how many women are doing it. It's almost like women have taken over that job that used to be traditionally male. It's like, not, not, overcorrection sounds like a negative, but it's almost like it's been completely usurped in a way. Being the first of any, anything, right, is being a trailblazer is hard, right?

So what do you think the experience is like now? I know you talk to other, you know, publicists and people in this field as research for the book, but I'm sure you've talked to them since. Like, how is it now? Do you wish you were starting now? Is it still bad? Like, what do you think? 

Brooke: It is very different from when I worked in the NFL.

And I will say. You know, working for a news outlet, like a Fox sports or ESPN is different from working for NFL teams just because the NFL itself has been, you know, these male owners and their coaches and anyone on the football operation side is usually a man. They're just not many women have, who've held those jobs.

But I do think 2020 was a big turning point for the NFL. And what happened with Washington was a real shakeup. And since then, there have been an, it has been an increase of over 140 percent of women entering the NFL on the football operation side, which is huge. I mean, I would say, you know, I think now there's over 220 women working in football ops and full time positions and over 10 of them are coaches, which before, yeah, no, I mean, before 2020, that did not happen.

And, I mean, I could tell you all these crazy stories of being, you know, the only woman working for a team going to an NFL scouting combine where they watch the players go through all these, you know, different drills and that's what they do to evaluate for the draft. And, um, I mean, I was like the only woman in the room at one point.

Zibby: We also watched the combine footage. No, you don't. Oh, yes, we did. 

Brooke: I've never had to qualify for that. 

Zibby: And we watched the draft. All the rounds of the draft. So yes, I'm well versed.

Brooke: You are well versed. All right. You, you got what I'm saying. But it's changed. I think it's changed profoundly and women are getting high roles.

I mean, you're talking about vice president roles, like for the Cleveland Browns and you have, um, you know assistant GMs who are women. And that just did not happen before 2020. And I think also, I mean, one, I think there was one executive, one top brass that NFL team said, we also realize all these women are such good multitaskers.

I'm like, yeah, you think, yeah, but they just, you know, I think this is a very, it's new territory for a lot of these NFL teams, but you are seeing a huge rise and you're seeing that these women are successful in their positions. 

Julia: That's actually why I'm remembering now, Brooke, we, we decided, I read the book and I said, can we timestamp this?

I actually want to make this historical fiction. And we added, with obviously Brooke's approval, I said, you know, what year do you feel like this story really lives in? Like there's a moment where she gets her first kind of team phone, like a smartphone. There's music references in the book. There's a certain feel that felt very like 2012 to me.

And so we actually timestamped it because I do think that as The industry continues to progress and, and develop. This is going to feel more like, wow, that's what it was like back then, in the dark ages. And there are certain things that unfortunately haven't changed in any industry. And I think that that's where that book, that's why the book succeeds on the level of a view into this world that I personally knew nothing about, but also something that is very universal.

And I think women in a lot of industries can see themselves represented. But yeah, we chose to essentially make it historical fiction. 

Zibby: I am still caught up in the fact that you could even define what 2012 was. I can't even remember, I can't remember the difference between like, I don't know, it's all a blur from like 2000 to 2020, it all just like blurs together.

Julia: I agree. I actually was just having this conversation the other day that I was like, anytime I think something has been only five years, I have to double it. Any, any distance of time is, is, I'm safer if I just double it in my head. 

Zibby: Yeah, same way disappear. 

Brooke: And to me, what's been so fun too, is that, I mean, that sounds silly, but there's like a full on Taylor Swift effect with the book, because it came out and I had a lot of people say, I think this is just going to fill a niche of women who like sports.

And I will say, I mean, there is a big, actually, I listened to your interview with Megan Tatey about Bluebird Day, and I loved how she was talking about leaning into women's sports, because there has been this big movement with cocoa golf, and you just, you see all these like. Big time women, you know, athletes getting their do, you know, Serena Williams was it for a while, but now she's like a powerhouse mogul.

And so, but anyways, I, I sort of thought I might fall into a niche then that would just be women in sports, which is great, but I felt like it could really relate to women and all different types of industries and Taylor Swift, if that came into play and people said. I had different people, reviewers say, listen, I love Taylor Swift.

I'm actually in more interested in football right now. Can you send me a copy of the book? I was like, okay. So I had, you know, it got play from that. It got, you know, digital play, social media play. Which is the boost. 

Zibby: Nothing like the Taylor effect. 

Brooke: Yeah, nothing like the Taylor effect. 

Zibby: So how did it work in terms of your collaboration?

And does Audioberry do things any differently? Like traditionally, from my understanding and from the books that I've worked on, whatever, you either get assigned. a narrator, which obviously you got to pick in this case. And then you don't hear it until the end. Or maybe because I was so low on the totem pole.

But anyway, how did it work with you? Did you have to wait till the end to hear it? Or Julia, did you send takes or like, how did it work? 

Julia: No, she did. She, because we had, we did this very quickly and, and just put it into our workflow as soon as possible and had the audio ready pretty much the day before we launched.

Brooke didn't hear anything ahead of time, but we did have a very extensive conversation about character choices, uh, pronunciations. This is when she gave me a primer on, on football. And so there was, it was a very collaborative, creative process, like leading up to the recording of it. But yeah, she heard it along with everyone else.

Zibby: And how much do you listen back, like, do you do all the pickups yourself? I know these are stupid, like, 

Julia: No, I mean, I, yeah, I mean, we have a post team, and I, there's many rounds of QC on, on our projects, because I feel, personally, I've always been upset as a narrator that it's little mistakes that slip through that end up, you know, going wide and then trying to get that toothpaste back in the tube is always super complicated.

So we do a pretty rigorous editorial and proofing and mastering process on on our stuff. But, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I doing the pickups. I am listening back, especially with characters and voices, especially if they're like gone for 50 pages and then they, they come back in. I always have clips that I'm referencing to remember their voices and on a final listen through I'll say, no, I think I can do that better and slip it in.

So I'm a bit of a perfectionist on that stuff. 

Brooke: I actually have a question for you, Julia. You did all these Oklahoma accents, but there's nuances to it. Like that. How, how did you nail those? Like, how do you do that? 

Julia: Yeah. I mean, I, I think that there's. Well, you have such great character detail, and I write all of that down when I'm prepping a manuscript.

So I am looking at what biographical detail is the author giving, what is this person's lived experience? Like Johnny, you know, may be from that area, but he's gone around, he's done his tour of duty in many other places and kind of come back. And so he had, he would have a different polish than someone who has just never left, you know?

So I'm, I'm just building character. And I know that's like a very ephemeral kind of thing to say, but that's as the best I can do as an actor is just saying I'm just building character. 

Zibby: And for those who don't know, and obviously I've interviewed you before, but in terms of becoming an audiobook narrator and leaning into this and becoming an expert in the way that, you know, perhaps Blake is trying to become an expert in her field as well.

How did that happen? 

Julia: I mean, I fell backwards into this job. I actually just got a Lifetime Achievement Award from the Society of Voice Arts and Sciences, and when I was trying to write a speech, I, I had a little bit, I was paralyzed a little bit because first of all, I'm so focused on Audiobury and building and moving forward in the future that I'm not even thinking, like, I'm not looking back to how I even got here.

So I had to just take a minute and kind of take stock. And the other thing is, a kind of disturbing thing that occurred to me is it's been hard for me to take credit for this career because I didn't intentionally set out to do it. It just sort of snowballed and, you know, if you follow that thinking through to its logical conclusion, then no one should ever be able to take credit for anything they didn't intend to do.

And that's. It's absurd. But it did just, you know, I remember when I started thinking if I could just do like one book a month, that would help cover some costs. And I had my tutoring job and I was doing on camera work and I was doing pickup screenplay writing and you know, I was doing that living that multi hyphenate 25 year old Los Angeles life.

I just ended up, I just fell in love with this work, and I got super charged by it, and then, you know, I was able to finally get back to my own writing. And now I just looked up, and it was like, I live in books, I live in publishing, that's what makes me happy, but the industry itself doesn't make me happy, and that's what needed to change.

But I absolutely love this work, and I think it's valuable. And that's, but I, I did, I just fell backwards into it like everyone did then. 

Zibby: It's amazing. So for both of you, do you have more books that you've written yourself coming out or different projects? 

Julia: Well, I'm excited about Brooke. I'm excited about what she's working on right now.

Zibby: Oh, tell me. Tell me. 

Brooke: Well, mine is a little league. Kind of drama, but it's about the culture of parents over obsessing about youth sports and sort of the drama with family and, and, and a mom who sort of finds herself as a baseball mom and very unfulfilled in life. And so there's going to be lots of layers, but I don't know if you experienced the city, but I found that in, at least in Texas, the culture of youth sports is out of control right now.

It's like its own world. 

Zibby: Yeah, I took a different tact and we do not do use sports after I followed my son around to travel baseball and I was like, we're not doing this anymore. You don't even like it. I'm not giving up my like weekends with all the other kids, like the other three kids to like sit here and watch you eat snacks in the dugout and like lay down on the field when it was your turn to be in the outfield.

Like we're not doing this anymore. 

Julia: My parents had a hard rule on that too. I did gymnastics, but my parents also would not let me do team sports because they also just, they also just were like, we don't want to deal with the parents. It's the main reason. But yeah, I'm super excited about that coming out of Brooke.

I am. Yeah, I am actually. So I launched, Audiobury launched with my third book, which was a romance novel. That's the book within a book from Thank You for Listening. So the book that the main characters were recording, I wrote and turned into and it's It's hilarious because it ended up being like my best reviewed book, and it's just very funny.

Um, but I am currently working on, yeah, I'm working on the next thing, but it's too early to talk about, but there's so, I mean, all of the energy this year and most of last year has been going toward building Audiobrary and, you know. I, I'm not, I can't say I'm in a, an active writing practice at the moment, there's just no time.

I mean, you can't do everything. No, I can't. No, apparently not, which I, I just, I have a problem with that. I don't, that doesn't sit well with me, but here we are. 

Zibby: I can relate to that. Yeah. 

Julia: Yeah. You of all people, I feel. 

Zibby: I can relate. I can relate. I like to do everything. So, what is most helpful for both of you?

Like, what's most helpful, Brooke, for getting the word out about the bug? And Julia, like, what's most helpful for not only getting the word out about the audiobook, but how to help you build your audioberry business and all of that? Like, what are, what would be the dream things to happen for both of you next?

Julia: That's very sweet. On our end, I really encourage people to go to the website, sign up for our newsletter. Not only will you get 10 percent off your first order, but we don't spam. We really only send out messages when there is something to actually say. A new project, a pre order, some cool new feature that we've put into the app.

And there's good stuff happening right now, particularly. So do that because, again, the whole point of this is if you can purchase your books through Audiobrary. our projects through Audiobury, you're making such a difference to the people that are actually involved in it. So that's, for me, that's really it.

Right now it's word of mouth, and we're building the library, and there's great stuff coming down the pike. So that's, for me, that's really all I ask. 

Brooke: Yeah, you know, to me, it's the same thing for the book and, and how I feel about the audiobook. I just trying to get the word out there about the audiobook and about Audiobury and how it does support artists, writers, it just.

You know, it's interesting because I've had people listen to it and they, when they listen to it, also, they really get this feel for seeing it on screen. And then it's funny how the, the audio book really triggers that more so than maybe the written book. And maybe it's just cause those are the people who were listening or, you know, plugged into that, but they, um, I've had a few people reach out to me and say, when I listened to the book, I really feel like it needs to be on screen.

And so, um, I think that the voices lend to that. 

Julia: Well, again, I think that's a very underappreciated part of audio is that it really is the first adaptation of a project, and in a lot of ways, it's going to be the closest you're ever going to get. You know, everyone watches the movie and goes, you know, Oh, the book was so much better.

Well, yeah, the audio book is the best, most, most faithful, true adaptation you are ever going to get. And it should spark that in in people. And I think it often does. So I'm, I'm happy to hear that. It does deserve to have that treatment for sure. 

Zibby: Are either of you listening to other books right now? 

Julia: No, just my own projects.

I mean, just Audioberry projects. I don't have time for elective listening, unfortunately. 

Zibby: Reading too? 

Julia: Yeah, same thing. I have a list of, I mean, here we are, like, gearing up for the holiday time and I'm, I'm just like, it'll be great. I'm not going to work. And then I looked at my reading list and it's about 25.

Books and I was like, oh, well, okay, . 

Zibby: Yeah. Somebody today was just like, oh, well, we'll all read this over the holidays. And I was like, do you know how many books I've said I'm gonna read over the holidays at this point? 

Julia: Yeah. It, no, 

Zibby: I don't even have time. Yeah. What about you? Well, B Blue B Day, that's the one I just got.

Oh,.. 

Brooke: I'm excited to read it. I know. Well, I, it really spoke to me because of the women in sports and I love to ski and so, um, and she's great. I'm getting it. It's, yeah, I'm so, and I'm giving it to some friends for the holidays as well. 

Zibby: Oh, well, Meg Teddy will be very appreciative and we all are. As well. 

Julia: Actually, speaking of giving, and I'm very broke, I need to I don't know when you're thinking of having this air Zippy, but we are like maybe even today, finally getting the gifting capability on the Audioberry website so you can actually gift specific projects now not just gift cards, which we've had forever. But I know I'm very excited about that because that will allow people, like people want to support us and they'll buy a project. And remarkably, we have such a high level of return, like more multiple purchases, which considering we're not doing the same type of book each time, I'm really, I take, I think that's very impressive and I'm very proud of that.

But now it's giving people the ability to actually gift the things that they loved. And so. 

Zibby: So if I were to, if I were to go online and gift Sideline Confidential to someone, would it come as a card branded with Sideline Confidential? 

Julia: Yep. It'll come as an individual. You can like put in your own message, you can schedule delivery, and you can also pick like a cute little gif if you want, and it sends them an e card essentially with a link to redeem the product through AudioBerry, and then it will walk them through signing into the app, and it'll be in the app. 

Zibby: Okay. Good. Okay. Yeah. That's another good idea. We were talking at the beginning about how we're going to finish all of our shopping, and I'm like, well, that's a good idea. Yeah. Yeah. It's very easy.

Brooke: Give the gift of AudioBerry. Great stocking stuffers. 

Zibby: Yeah. Exactly. 

Julia: So, yeah. No, I think it's, um, I'm excited about that. And yeah, so that's the point is like, and I think that's the other thing is Brooke is seeing that every time we have a new project, it brings people back to the site. It builds our mailing list, like all of the authors are benefiting from the ecosystem that's being created over there.

And it's been great. And I'm so appreciative of authors like Brooke for taking that initiative to come to me and say, I know your work. I think you might like this. And I totally agree with what you're doing and what you're trying to fix and You know, giving me that confidence and that, uh, that partnership and it's been wonderful.

Zibby: So I guess just in closing, since both of you are sort of fearless trendsetters, if you will, in different areas going into industries that might not have a clear path for you when you start out, what's advice you could give or what keeps you going when you start to feel doubt, if you start to feel doubt, like, what is the thing you say to yourself, or how do you convince yourself this is the right move?

Julia: That's such a good question. 

Zibby: Oh, wow, yeah. 

Julia: I'm punting to Brooke. 

Brooke: Oh, and good football term in there. I know, I was gonna say that and I was like, no, I can't. You know, I think with, Sideline confidential. The reason why I wrote it is that I wanted young women to feel like they weren't alone and starting off in an industry where you feel like you're walking this impossible tightrope, or it's like, be pretty, but not too sexy.

You need to know a lot, know your football stuff, but don't know more than them in the room. And so I wanted to just. Then to realize like they have a voice and they're not alone. And a lot of times when I think about, gosh, can I do this? I'm forging this path ahead and I'm putting myself out there and it can be scary.

I just remind myself, I'm not alone. There's so many other women trailblazers and you do it for each other. We are in this together. And I believe in. Partnership and raising everyone up and not like, you know, there's one person who can do this. We all can be lifted up and do things together. And I just feel like when you have that mentality, that more collective mentality, then yes, you can do these hard things and you can forge these paths.

Julia: That's so valuable. It's such a good point. For me, I think it, it comes down to really understanding your why, why you're doing something. I mean, go back to that, like the Simon Sinek TED talk from 10 years ago or 14 years ago at this point, that's like every major company, successful game changing company starts with what is the why, not the what, not the product, but the why are we, why are we doing this?

And I will say that as you know, I've conscripted my poor husband into doing this with me. We are. This has eaten up our lives, you know, we don't have children and in many ways I feel like we just created a child here and a toddler that you can't look away from for more than ten seconds or it's going to hurt itself and like this is not the lifestyle that we wanted.

But I have such a strong why for this and that's what gets me up every day and makes us go, we're going to keep going, we're going to keep moving this forward. And I think also I will also say that not having a, my first book is a little bit about this. My Oxford year is a little bit about this thing we tell ourselves of, you've got to follow your dreams, like never give up on your dreams.

And I, like I said, with audio, I fell backwards into this. This was not the dream. This was not the plan. And if I had been resistant to letting something else into my life, I would have never found this thing that I love. So I think that it's healthy actually to reevaluate your dreams and to say, I have more information now.

Maybe this isn't the best thing for me to be doing. And that openness to other influences, to the world at large, like just Just be curious about the things around you and I think follow them when they really interest you. That's how I got here. 

Zibby: That's great advice. Yeah. Podcasting was not my dream either.

Right. But I love it. I love it so much. And who knew? I mean, I didn't, it didn't even exist. So. 

Julia: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Perfect. 

Zibby: All right. Well, congratulations to both of you. Sideline Confidential, the book, the audiobook, the whole package. Congrats on this fabulous team. 

Julia: Thank you. 

Brooke: Thank you, zibby. 

Zibby: You're welcome.

Okay. Happy holidays. 

Julia: Thanks. 

Zibby: Bye, guys.