Zibby is joined by legendary whitewater rafting guide and debut author Bridget Crocker to discuss THE RIVER’S DAUGHTER, a vivid, propulsive, and deeply insightful memoir about finding courage and meaning in a life outdoors. Bridget shares the decades-long journey of writing her story, which traces her turbulent upbringing in Wyoming, her profound connection to rivers and nature, and her path to healing from trauma, addiction, anxiety, and generational cycles of abuse. She also reflects on her years as an international river guide and the resilience she gained through listening—both to the natural world and her inner voice.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Bridget. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked with Zibby to talk about The River's Daughter, a memoir. Congrats. 

Bridget: Thanks for having me. It's a real pleasure to be here. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh, your book was so good. I couldn't put it down. I, it kept me up late. The ending killed me. I mean, the whole thing.

Oh my gosh. I don't know. I have so much respect for you for so many reasons, and the book in and of itself was so good, but your life, oh my gosh. Just really amazing. Sorry, sorry to gosh. Just oh my gosh. 

Bridget: No, keep gushing. No, it is really touching me that, that the ending moved you. I mean, I think that's the reason why this book is out in the world, because of that promise that I made to my father.

So you know that that is coming through and that love is coming through. It means a lot. 

Zibby: You guys went through so much together. This is right up there with some of the most complicated father-daughter relationships and literature that there are. But that part where you end up and not to like have any spoilers and obviously you should tell people about the book, but when you got to a place where he could apologize and you could forgive him and you learn more about him.

And we're willing to just be like, okay, but don't mess it up this time. You know? 

Bridget: Yeah. I think, and I think that, you know, I, I began writing this book. I, it took me 22 years to write this book, and it's, you know, I can just give a little intro. 

Zibby: Yes, please. Sorry, Bridget, what is Bridget? What is your book about?

So, sorry for our listeners, for our listeners. 

Bridget: Our listeners and friends who, uh, are dying to know what is this book that kept Zibby up late at night? You know, I grew up on the Snake River in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. And this is a book about growing up, you know, in a troubled family and finding the nurturing and care that I needed, uh, from the river, from the Snake River.

I learned to communicate with the river at a young age and could hear the voice of the river. And um, you know, that relationship led me into a career as an international river guide. And, um, to, you know, my, my main goal, it was my ticket out, my main goal was to get away from my family. And, uh, so I, I ended up moving to Zambia where, you know, 'cause they can't find me in Beka Gorge on the Zambazi River.

And while I was there, I. You know, was able to see, to travel and to, to see things through a different cultural perspective, you know, to learn things about my family and, and to see us in context in the context of our story. And that led me back to my family where I was able to work with my father, especially to heal the multi-generational cycles of poverty and abuse that we endured.

So it, you know, it's, it's a bit of a prodigal daughter story and also just a healing in nature story and a kind of a rollicking high adventure story as well. I, I wanted it to be fun too. It's not just a slog.

Zibby: No, it's not a slog at all. You even have a little celebrity, celebrity infusion in the middle there, um, with some, some drama.

Um, but there's so much to it. I mean. You got through so much in your childhood, but then the sexual stuff with guys, I just like, you kept ending up in these situations and by the time you took that guy's gun away, I was like, no, I can't have another, she can't have another bad thing happen in this situation.

You know, I'm like, like closing my eyes to see what happens next. But you handled it all. You learn you like, you show us your how you gained so much strength, like from. And it all like takes place with this nature background and like starting with your backup against the tree and being so powerless and then sort of ending with you like in charge of the rivers and being able to like throw the gun in the bushes.

I don't know, I just feel like it was such a, such an arc. 

Bridget: Yeah. And I, I thank you. I think a, a lot of that growth and strength, and it's a coming of age memoir, so it's about, you know, um, coming into myself and my power and, and starting out at kind of a deficit of being very disempowered. It would, I, I very much credit my relationship with rivers and becoming a river guide and, and having to kept in my own ship, you know, literally, and being in charge of other people, but being able to rely on my relationship with the river, I trusted that, you know, and, and that's what, um, enabled me to have the confidence. To, you know, be hurling myself over horizon lines, class four and five rapids and, you know, and be very successful at it because I had that connection with the river and, and was able to communicate and, you know, the river would tell me where to go and, um, I'd end up having great runs and developing my skills.

And as that progressed, that confidence. Then I saw where in my personal life and, and in my professional life, there was a real disparity of how I was responding, you know, to um, to threats. You know, I was very competent on the river and responding to threats, um, and able to overcome them, the obstacles, you know, on the river and off.

But in, in relationships, on land, you know, with, with predators, uh, human form that was, I was still so conditioned. To go into fight, flight, or freeze, you know, and to go into that cave inside myself and, and hide out and wait for it to pass. Um, and I think the real crux moment is when I'm, I am on the river and one of my coworkers, um, comes at me and sexually harasses me on the river, and my instinct is to go inward.

But the river's there holding up a mirror of like, wait, this isn't who you are. You know, who, who, what are you doing? And gives me that confidence too. And just like the pulling, you know, pulling me forward into the next version of myself, which is what rivers do, you know, constantly moving into the next version of ourselves and growing.

Um, so that's. I think my main goal in writing this book is to show how do you do that? Like, how does, you know, like when you're teaching someone to surf, you don't just say, well just stand up on the surfboard. You know, you have to go through the steps of how do you, how do you stand up? Um, so that was a big part of what I wanted to impart, uh, to readers is to show how do you progress and stand up.

Zibby: Wow. Well, you also in many different instances in the book, stand up for other people in, in a really big way, and I feel like particularly in Africa when you were you know, and you stood up to your dad for racism when you were like 13 years old. And then again, when you're in Africa and defending it at a, you know, at a beautiful like sort of party situation, I think where there were like people like standing behind you and just being like, no, which ends up get you, like getting you like dunked in a pool.

I, you're just like outspoken when, when you see injustice and whether it's a man towards you, whether it's towards a group of people, you're just like a badass, you're just like, I'm just gonna stand up for it without any fear for myself. Like, tell me about, about that and gaining that and how it feels to, to feel that empowered.

Bridget: I love that question and I, I love being able to talk about this. You know, I think as someone who suffered a lot of injustice and being controlled, I could recognize that in other people very easily. And, you know, there's a scene when I moved to Zambia and I start working on, for this rafting company.

And, and there's some real injustice that's happening. Some incredible racism. And because I'm white, you know, I had the, I had power to u to step in on their behalf. And I, you know, I see now in writing the book and in, you know, just thinking about this deeply, like, I wasn't, I wasn't en enabled. I, I could, I couldn't stand up for myself.

But be, I felt that I could stand up for other people. And I think that that is like the basis of white saviorism, you know, where we're, you know, we have people who come and, and they're trying to constantly save others. And I, I, I just, I saw how that, you know, that, uh, inability to maybe stand up for ourselves when we're disempowered.

Like there's a place where we have to turn it back and, and just focus on ourselves, you know? And I wasn't able to get to that place. But I could see it, you know, in the world around me. 

Zibby: Wow. Well, it's, I mean it, I know it comes from a not the best place, right? It doesn't come from, you have to go through a lot to have that characteristic, but it is so beautiful.

I mean, it's amazing how you do that. Whatever happened to Theresa. Your aunt, was that in the book? Did I miss it? 

Bridget: No.

Zibby: I feel like I need a conclusion to that. Like the last we saw her, you had parted ways at the restaurant, and then we didn't hear from her again, and I just wanted to know what the, what the update was.

Bridget: No, we've been estranged, you know, for most of my life. Yeah. 

Zibby: Okay. Sorry. I didn't know if there was a, an update.

Bridget: No, there's. 

Zibby: I found myself wondering about all these characters and like, what's up with Danny? Where is he? Can I get like a Ps. 

Bridget: I, you know, I've lost, I've lost touch with him as well. 

Zibby: Aw, 

Bridget: I know.

Zibby: Well, a lot of people are gonna be really surprised when they read this book. I bet you won't be a stra. I bet you won't be a strangers for long. Okay. Talk a little bit about this. Being able to talk to the rivers, which I know is what starts the book. And then when you get to Africa it people think, maybe this is like a curse that you're a witch or something like that.

And how different cultures treat what this ability to really hear from the river what you need to get out of it. And do you really think it's the rivers or is it a part of your brain? Sort of a self-talk thing, or do you think it's, do you actually hear it like it's a sound? 

Bridget: Well, I think, you know, culture is a, it's the reflection of landscape, you know, and so wherever it is that we live, the place that we're surrounded, you know, the landscape that we're immersed in, that that's gonna be what's reflected in ourselves, our thoughts, um, and our culture.

And I was so fortunate to grow up in Jackson Hall, which is the, you know, people call the Serengeti of North America. And you know, I grew up in a very vast wilderness area and when I visit wilderness areas, like there's, there's a quality in wilderness, like real wilderness where there are no people. And, and you know, I was also raised by backpacking guides, who, you know, in wilderness areas.

So there. I think it's hard for people who haven't experienced wilderness to understand, like you can feel that it's alive. You know, there's, there's a, a palpable quality in wilderness areas where it's, it's alive there, you know, everything's interconnected and you can feel that energy. When I, I have this ability to just sort of get into like a focused meditative state where, you know, you're, you're, when you're really, and especially, and it, and I credit my A DHD with this, right?

I can be hyper-focused on things and that create that, you know, that brings the creativity and also the ability to focus deeply. And when I am able to focus deeply. I get, you know, messages and sometimes I do hear a voice, and sometimes it's more, uh, just in, you know, kind of this tickling that happens in, you know, behind my third eye or like, I can feel it in my body and, but there's an idea attached to the feeling and so there is a communication that's happening and being, you know, it's in the same way that you can communicate with your dog.

Right. There's it, it's not, it's not unlike that. Or there's, you know, you just, uh, for me, you know, being able to focus on the river and learning, you know, the sounds and, and the, and the feeling, then that becomes a way of communicating. And, you know, like the opening scene where I fell into the river and was, you know, had blanked on what I should do and I hear a, a voice clearly yell, swim when there are no human.

Humans there besides my friend and I who didn't hear the voice and uh, and who never said swim. So, yeah. You know, in my, there, I get this from a lot of folks, like, well, how, you know, people are curious, like, how can I connect to nature more deeply? And I think the, you know, the answer to that is to just, you have to sit still and listen and absorb it and like put your phone down and, you know, get, get away from all of the clamor of, of human made world and and remember, like who we are and where we come from and, and really sink into that. 

Zibby: Hmm. Well, I just love that you start with those pictures in your closet in the place when you're in your darkest moments and you're curled up, sort of escaping yourself and self-soothing honestly. And then 

Bridget: mm-hmm. 

Zibby: You get to live out that moment.

I mean, that's, it's just ama, it's so cinematic. Is this gonna be a movie, by the way? It's, the whole thing is so cinematic. 

Bridget: Yeah. Yes. My, my film team's working on that right now. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. Amazing. It's really incredible. Throughout. The things that you were dealing with from physical abuse to sexual assault, to poverty, to just this notion of you being sort of the only named person in your town with your same last name, like just this feeling other, and to cope with all of this, you self-medicate a lot with drugs and alcohol. And that could be its own sliver of memoir, right? Just the immersion into that. Like you, you pepper it through everything and you have a, you know, a thing at the end where you sort of wrap things up and where you are now with it. But can you talk a little bit about that and how you feel looking back or when you know what your whole relationship is to addiction?

Bridget: What a wild question for you to ask me today is my 22nd sobriety birthday. 

Zibby: Stop. Oh my gosh. 22 is my lucky number. So there you go. It was meant to be. 

Bridget: Here we're. 

Zibby: Oh, congratulations. 

Bridget: Thank you very much. Yeah. You know, dealing, and I love that you brought in othering too, because you know, that is the thing that helped me to understand, you know, and see where other people are being othered, you know, and to know that that deep loss and, um.

And that the, those feelings of grief that come with that of just dis of disconnection and I, that that intense pain and grief like is, is it becomes unbearable. And so the drinking and the using is a way to, you know, numb that grief and, and make it, go away, but it doesn't fix the problem, you know? And it just, it, it just spirals into its own problem.

I also grew up in a family of addicts, you know, there, there's addiction in my family. And so it was the family culture and genetically I'm predisposed to it. You know, it was in some, in sometimes, you know, and, and in river culture it's a way to connect too. Like it's a way for the guides to go off and kind of have our own moment or you know, it's a way to have, have like a ceremonial thing that people are doing together, you know? And so sometimes it would be about that, but you know, I can tell you that I don't, you know, he doing the real healing so that I don't need to numb out to my feelings anymore. And I can feel them and process them in real time now is such a blessing.

And it's, um, you know, I'm just so much more content and, and, you know, learning how to manage my nervous system. That was a big part of it too. I had such radical anxiety from growing up the way I did that my nervous system was like firing at this high voltage. That was part of what made it made me a very successful guide because, you know, there's an inordinate number of people with ADHD and with anxiety disorder who are are river guides because things are coming at you so quickly and, and our nervous systems are more attuned to be able to respond more quickly too.

But yeah, you know, to manage my anxiety. And now, you know, I, I run and I meditate to manage my anxiety instead of using drugs. And that has worked really well for me. 

Zibby: So you don't take antidepressants? Not that this is any of my business. 

Bridget: No, I don't. I, you know, when I first, I, I started having these like radical panic attacks when I was, uh, about 30.

Um, it all kind of caught up to me. It physically, you know, I'd been ignoring my, you know, the signs for my body. I had like my throat would close off, you know, I wouldn't be able to breathe. And I ended up at the, in the emergency room several times with like my, you know, thinking I was, I had a blocked airway or something was even hospitalized once overnight, you know, misdiagnosed with epiglottitis, which is like a kid's disease.

So I kept ending up like at, in the emergency room, and finally I got a, and this was like in the, you know, this was like 1998 or something. I finally got a doctor who. I was like, do you know, do you, do you self-medicate with drugs and alcohol? I'm like, what do you mean? And then, you know, he was like, you know, I, I wanna try, we're gonna try giving you some antidepressants.

I'd like you to also see a therapist. And then, you know, from there I started going to a 12 step meeting. And, um, you know, what I realized was like the antidepressants also, they, they weren't doing the trick either. And like, you know, our biologically our, when you're in extreme fight or flight, like we're supposed to run, right?

We're supposed to expel the adrenaline. And so I was like, you know, I think I'm just gonna. Start running, and that's when I became a runner. And I'm telling you, it, it, for me, it's worked really great. When I feel anxious, I go for a run. I feel much better. You know, it's, it's pretty simple. And I, I took antidepressants for about six months.

It made me feel insane and I, it just didn't work for me very well. So this was, this is what I, I've been doing since, since then. And it's, it's worked great. 

Zibby: Wow. So how far are you running? Like, what's your running,.. 

Bridget: You know, I, I'd like to run about four miles. Is kind of like my normal, you know, kind of sweet spot or even walk, you know, a fast walk.

And I like to listen to music sometimes, like I'll drop my kids at the, at swimming or water polo practice and I'll go on the track and just put on Beyonce and just, uh, you know, like, let the mind flow or I love to run to ham. The Hamilton soundtrack is like my just get really, I get super excited and like can really like, get the aggression out.

But yeah, even just uh, going for a hike in nature, like I go for, my husband and I like to take a hike after dinner. Usually we just do a, an evening walk and just on the trails out here around my house and. Just to be outside too is such a calming, it has a calming effect on my nervous system. 

Zibby: And you still live in Malibu?

Bridget: I do. 

Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: I know that, um, you know, you referenced the Woolsey fire in the book, but were you affected by this fire?

Bridget: Yeah. Uh, our, you know, as you know, everybody in the community is affected and all of our businesses are, you know, still struggling to stay open. Um, uh, my home did not burn this time, but, you know, so many of our friends, there were like 20 kids in my younger daughter's class who lost their homes, and it's just something that we live with in Malibu.

It's part of, you know, it's like if you live in Florida, you deal with hurricanes, we deal with fires and what's, my husband grew up here, he grew up in Topanga, and what's amazing is like all of the, you know, the people who grow up here, they have this skillset that just sort of springs into action, you know, and, you know, my kids have that now.

Uh, we all, we've, I've adapted and so we have these skills that, and we work very well as a community when there is a fire. I mean, I'm sure you've seen that with your experience with the Palisades fire, like how amazing the community is. And after the Woolsey fire, I remember thinking, like saying to my husband like, we can't live here.

Like we have to move. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Bridget: And he said, we can't leave now. We're gonna miss out on the really beautiful part of the community coming together. And I was like, well, I don't really care about that. Um, I just wanna be safe, you know? But then, you know, as we did, and I realized like I didn't know how to stay was the real issue.

Like, I run, I'm a runner, right? So I was like, we gotta run, we gotta leave. And that in the book, you see how like I run when, you know 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Bridget: And my husband does not. He digs in and, and I, and I finally said to him like, I, you know, the truth is I don't know how to stay. And he's like, well, stick with me. I'll show you how, you know.

And we just kind of like, you know, walked through it and, and he was right. You know, the, the beauty of that community coming together, of our community and like what people, the interconnectedness that happens, that was the thing that I was always running towards looking for, you know, looking for connection, looking for community.

And I had no idea like. By staying and investing in a community, you gain more community. Like, it's a very basic, simple principle, but I, um, it took me until I was, you know, like in my forties to learn that. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. 

Bridget: Yeah. It's, I mean, it's been one of the biggest gifts of my life actually to that sense of belonging, uh, and being part of being a valued member and a part of a community.

Zibby: It's so crazy to me that like. You are just another mom at pickup at your kids' school in Malibu, and this is your story. You know what I mean? Like people could make so many of the wrong assumptions about you, like don't you just wanna tell everybody? Or maybe that's why you wrote the book, just to be like, yeah, no, no, I'm not, you know?

Bridget: Well, I mean, part of it. Um, you know, my husband's a lifeguard and so we're a lifeguard family, and so we're, you know, we're water people and I can sort of translate my, what, what I do into that world, but there would always be this sort of like, yeah, you know, I guide rivers and, and we would, we do these like incredible trips with our kids too.

And so our kids would come back from spring break and like, you know, what did you do? Like, oh, well I paddled 83 miles, you know, in my little kayak by myself, you know, on the San Juan River and at like 11, you know, and people are like, what? We went, we went to Disneyland. But, you know, so it would kind of start to seep out and, you know, and I do, I, I feel like I, I am who people understand who I am and, and I can be fully myself in, in my community. And you know, at first I wasn't sure how that would go. And also people have such like ideas about what Malibu is because it's, you know, like the mo, it's sort of this archetypal. Place that people have in their minds. It's, and it's, it's, you know, very glamorous and it's very ritzy and, you know, it's, it's, uh, everybody hears rich and everybody hears snob, you know, they're all snobs.

And I've gotta, I've gotta say that, that. It's not my experience at all. I mean, it is filled with very hardworking people who know how to survive really extreme things. I mean, it's a place of extreme beauty. It's very similar to where I grew up in Jackson. Like there's extreme beauty and, and there's the culture of people who also, um, are, uh, very, you know, hardworking, loyal, devoted people, and very connected to this place and to each other.

Um, you know, I. I couldn't, I just can't say enough beautiful things about, you know, the people who live here and, uh, you know, and they've been very accepting of, of me and my life and my lifestyle, my history, you know, I've been very open. Uh, but yeah, you know, there are, there are people who don't know our story and, you know, our families had to like, come together like, okay, we're in.

And it was a, a family decision, like we're gonna. Put this in the world now, and our girls are old enough that, 'cause my kids don't know a lot of this stuff either. You know, we, it's not something that I wanted to burden them with when they were young. So we're st we're going through the book and reading it together and talking about it.

Um, you know, they know like a general sense of like, mom had a, had a kind of rough childhood and. You know, they were very close to my father. Um, they're very close to, you know, they don't have a relationship with, with their grandmother, as you know, we've been estranged for a long time. So, you know, they understand like there's something going on there.

There's a reason why, you know, they're estranged, but they don't know all the details. And so, you know, it's gonna be out there now. And, you know, uh, and we may, and when I first gave the book to my husband to read, like, you know, how do you feel about this? You know, being out there and he kept coming back to me and saying like, how many more sex scenes are in this book?

You know, like, how, how many more abuse scenes are in here? Like, I, you know, and I was like, well just skip ahead to page 100. You know, that's, that's where the white water starts and it, it gets really fun. And he's like, no, I'm gonna read the whole thing, you know? And, and, uh, then at the end he came to me and said.

Like, it's not up to me to, to say if you can publish this or not. Like, this story is bigger than us. Like it's not, it's beyond us and it's gotta go out there and it's gonna help a lot of people. And that's been our intention from the beginning. 

Zibby: Oh, well, Bridget, congratulations. Um, I hope I see you some time in LA. Malibu area. I have like a hundred more follow-up questions. So many questions about people in the book and, but thank you. It was really inspiring and congratulations on 22 years. 

Bridget: Thank you very much. Thanks. Thanks for having me. 

Zibby: My pleasure. Bye bye.