Zibby welcomes acclaimed poet and debut novelist Yrsa Daley-Ward to discuss THE CATCH, a darkly whimsical, riveting tale of women daring to live and create with impunity—and the inaugural novel in the Well-Read Black Girl Books series. Yrsa delves into the story, which follows two estranged sisters whose lives are upended when one believes she sees their mother, who was long presumed dead. Yrsa touches on the book’s poetic structure and themes of identity, loss, imagination, and sisterhood, and then shares how the grief of losing her own mother in early adulthood inspired the novel’s emotional core. Finally, she offers powerful advice for aspiring writers.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome Yrsa, thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked with Zibby to talk about The Catch a novel. Congratulations. 

Yrsa: Thank you. It is my pleasure. Thank you for having me. 

Zibby: My pleasure too. What a book. Oh my gosh. So you have a very unique writing style. You are drawn right in. It is so captivating and wow, really very cool. Very cool. I have lots of questions. Let's start though by you just telling what the book is about. 

Yrsa: Yeah, absolutely.

So I'm on tour, so I'm getting a little bit better about keeping this short and succinct. So The Catch follows two twin sisters, Clara and Dempsey, and a couple of weeks after they were born, their mother just went missing, walked out, disappeared, they say into the thames went missing, presumed dead. So of course as a result of this, the mother was the only parent we know about.

So they grew up, uh, and they were adopted into different families and grew up estranged and slightly at odds with each other, even though they both never left South London. So they both were aware of each other and would see each other occasionally, but not often very estranged. And on their 30th birthday, which is where we meet them, one of the sisters, the one that's seen as slightly more successful with more, just more, more things happening in the world Clara, she's a celebrity author. She sees somebody who she thinks is their mother. The reason why she thinks it's her mother is because the person has the exact same name and it's the spitting image of the photos that they have of her. The only thing is this appears to be a version of their mother before, well, around the time when she went missing, so before she really had children, so they're 30 and their mother's 30, and the novel is all about can this be? And if this can be, how could this be? Clara believes it is their mother fully, Dempsey thinks that this woman is a con woman, and it's all about what happens when this stranger comes hurtling into their lives. 

Zibby: Wow. Okay. How did you think of this? Do you have a twin sister? How did you think of this whole thing?

Yrsa: Oh, no. You know, twins are so fascinating to me. I only know two sets of twins as well, but it came to me because I, I think about my own mother so much who passed away what, some almost 20 years now and. Every so often I'll just, I'll see somebody walking down the street and just have that sense of longing, you know, that, just that, that hot sense of like, what would it be to experience her again, to, to touch her, to have a conversation, even if it was just for a weekend or something like that.

And this, you know, books can be wishful fulfillment. It can be a great way to like delve into something like a fantasy or something you wish was true. And so. Yeah, I would see versions of, of, well, people who resemble my mother either in stature or just made me think of her. And I, I, I wanted to write into that also.

What would my mom be like at my age? How would it be to encounter her? And then we're all the same age? Would I get on with her, would I not? So that was what brought this story into being. Oh my gosh. 

Zibby: My daughter and I actually, um, are almost in writing a graphic novel about a middle school girl who goes back and meets her mom at a dance at the same age.

Yrsa: I love that idea. I love, I love it. 

Zibby: Similar, uh, motivation, right? Like how do you get to know. Your family and it, when you're, when you have such a big age gap or, and you never will.

Yrsa: And I guess experiencing our parents is something other than who they are to us. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Yrsa: Is, is, you know, a mind bender as well.

Zibby: Yes. And I'm so sorry about you're losing your mom. That's terrible. I'm so sorry. 

Yrsa: Thank you. Thank you so much. You know, it, it seeps its way into a lot of the things I write either, I mean, I consider it like a, you know, a great richness. It does it, it weigh in many. Many, many different forms into different things that I write.

Zibby: And how old were you and, and what happened, if I can ask? 

Yrsa: Well, my mother passed away. You know, I'm saying 20, but it's probably more like about, we're probably, 'cause I, I keep the, um, the number like very like wispy in my mind, but it will probably getting onto 16 years, I was in my early twenties. And my mom had breast cancer.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Yrsa: And that was how, you know, after quite a long battle with breast cancer, she passed away. So it was at a very, I mean, I don't think there's any good age, but it was a very distinct age, uh, in my life. So as I, as I age, I start to remember my mother as the age that, because I'm getting, I'm getting close, so the age to. The age that I remember her at is probably around my age now. 

Zibby: Hmm. Oh my gosh. Do you feel like writing the book and going through this exercise of sort of imagining, does it make you feel better? Does it make you feel for, is it like a bittersweet experience or does it feel soothing? 

Yrsa: Well, you know, I think life is bittersweet and I, I don't, I never attribute like a single feeling to an experience. You know, there's, I think that in deep grief we also access levels of deep love.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Yrsa: Empathy that you, you reach sometimes at the other side of these things. So I never. I don't experience that even though it's a very, very difficult thing. It's not, it's not, it doesn't lie purely in the ne negative. For me, it's given me pathways into storytelling and nurturing and warmth and being able to hold.

Space and time for other people. So I think, you know, any kind of tragedy or anything that we undergo is kind of like, it, it, it kind of increases your capacity in other areas if you are willing to, to open the door. 

Zibby: Oh, I love that. That's, that's a, a nice way, the silver lining. 

Yrsa: Yes. Yeah. You have to, I think I believe in silver lining and not just as a kind of, uh, as a device, but also re-patterning in your brain. Uh, I think I, that's how I live my life. You know, everything is multiple things. So it does matter how we frame things and also how we talk about things. 

Zibby: Wait, take me back into your life for a minute. So you're in your twenties, your mother passes away. What were you doing in your life then, and what's happened since then?

Yrsa: So I had, at the time, I had just moved to London and I remember I moved from up in the northwest of England, Manchester, and I, I was like, this place is too, I want to go somewhere else. You know, I love Manchester, but I just moved from there. And Manchester isn't where I grew up, by the way. It's where I landed there, but I've always been like from the northwest of England and I wanted to move somewhere.

I was, I wanted to be an actor. I wanted to write some more. I was always a writer. It was it, it halted my progress in lots of areas, but also allowed me to access things, as I said before, that I don't think everyone has access to. I mean, you can't sometimes before you've experienced the thing. 

Zibby: So then how, but how did you become an author?

Yrsa: I've always been that I was lucky enough to have a mother who, she was a Jamaican immigrant, so she came to England in her teens, and really when she had me, which was not until, until her twenties, uh, she, she impressed the need. For writing is not only as like a communication tool, but also education. You know, you write so that you can move in the world and, and really taught me to read at a very young age.

So I had a very advanced reading age and I think that with. With some children, if the earlier you introduce them to language, the more facility they, they may have with it. And because of that, it worked for me. She, she taught me to read, so I was reading it too. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. 

Yrsa: Not only that, but I mean this is for better or worse, right?

She had a collection of books and I'm talking about all types of books. I had access to whatever I wanted to read, so I rather a vastly advanced, uh, age. She didn't. Just gimme children's books. I could read anything. So not only that is that I was brought up by my grandparents too, who knew the Bible inside out and I had to learn that.

So there was everything. There was everything there. And because of that, I was able to really understand people and literature and language in a very, the very deep way. So because of that, writing was the natural thing that I. I went to, to tell my truth. Uh, it, it's just, it's just a such a dense and rich place for me of expression, and I love that books and novels showed us like what people really think and what versus what they say and what people do versus what they want to do.

All of that complexity was just very, very seductive to me. And so I've always just, the written word is just, ah, such a delight to me. Always will be, I think. 

Zibby: That's so great because in the book you have an author. Being an author is very different than being somebody who likes to write on their own, but the trappings of being a successful author and the glamorous headshot and the fans and people knowing your work inside and out and the creepiness factor and all of that, you poke fun at that a little bit in the book as well. Tell me a little bit about that. 

Yrsa: Well, I think you have to. I think you have to because maybe it's 'cause I'm from the north of England, but we do not take ourselves too seriously. So it can be funny when. Work is taken in a, in a way, I mean, I do think that literature is a bridge and I do think in some ways it can be life and death.

You know? 'cause you, you write to feel not so alone. You read to feel not so alone, but also you, you cannot have an inflated sense of ego. So I have to put fun, fun because you get involved in so many situations and when you do anything public facing that you gotta laugh at. So, yeah, it's very easy for me to find that inside of the book.

Zibby: Okay. What's something that you considered putting in the book and you're like, no, no, no, I'm just not gonna do that. But that was like super funny or, you know.

Yrsa: Oh, no, I never, I put everything in. 

Zibby: You did. 

Yrsa: I don't have the sense of going too far inside. I think that if you can conceive it and if it happens in real life or you can conceive something parallel to that, why not put it in?

You know? The reason why is because I think that writing is where I go for wildness, especially as an introvert. So I'm like, let it all hang out. Like say it, say it, why not? And so that's why as well, it's so kind of addictive for me because I can. Use all those split selves and selves that are not appropriate or se things that you don't say and put it into the work. So I don't have that, that, that self editor that's, that wants to pull back. This is a, an area in my life where I don't pull back. 

Zibby: Nice. I love that you did, did something structurally, which I found really interesting because every few pages. You have like almost a little quote and it's indented or it's a skew or there's a line. And then I was wondering, what if I connect all of these things? So I was going through it, I'm like, do they actually make, is it a puzzle? Like, are, am I supposed to have a different narrative if you connect all of these lines? But no, 

Yrsa: I don't think so. 

Zibby: No, I tried though. 

Yrsa: I love that you tried. I love that. Yeah. That's a really good idea, by the way. But no, I just, you know, sometimes as, as these things are coming through, I'll just. Throw them in the position that something other than me, I don't know, tells me to do. And I just do it. And I don't, I don't double think it. Uh, especially when it comes to structure. Uh, it's just something about the breathing or something about the space, or even the two lines that I think you want to pay attention to. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Yrsa: Fall into the next part. 

Zibby: Hmm. Well, it's very cool. Makes you stop. You're always stopping to think like, what is the reason? And then like, wanting to make an Instagram post of, of it or something like that.

You know? They're like, some of these lines, not all of them, like, but some of them like, but then things are rarely as we hoped are they? And then on the next page. But things are rarely as we hoped, are they? But then you do it differently. So it's like a poem, but you are treating the words. I don't know. It's very, it's very interesting. Very cool. 

Yrsa: You know, poetry is just such an excellent entry point into, into like writing a novel I think because in poetry we can. There's just more, there seems to be more space to put. If you want to put one word and then break the line, you can. And I do take that into my novel writing because why not?

Zibby: Yeah, I love it. So what are all the different things you have? What are all the balls in the air that you have in your life right now? 

Yrsa: If I, why was, was to think about them? I'm probably climb back into bed. Like I, you know, there are balls in the air. I think because there, there are lots of reasons. Number one is.

I feel like I just have a lot of, I'm in a moment, it's not always, but currently in a moment where I have a lot of ideas burning. Second is survival. You know, authors need to get paid. So I have a, a lot of things, you know, I'm a touring poet, you know, I do, sometimes I'll do commissions for, for brands or something if I like them.

I have my substack, I do speaking work. You know, do speaking work on lots of different things that mean a lot to me. So there are a lot of different things going on at any one time, and that's just how I know to live as an artist without having like a full-time like office job or something that I go into. So it, it's been like that for, for many years. And so I do, I do stay busy, but I mean, a lot of that is out of necessity as well. 

Zibby: And how do you, how do you manage your time and stay organized? 

Yrsa: I manage my time, you know? Deep solitude is really important to me, and I've noticed, you know, if I've ever, if I've ever had that in question, I just need to be around someone else for a good 48 hours and I'll be like, oh no, I need my solitude. But yeah, I, I, I have to protect my time, especially the morning hours, which is my writing time. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Yrsa: I write at night, I write very, from, very early in the morning to the afternoon, very early afternoon. And I need that time to just breathe and to hear myself. Otherwise, the, the, the waves of the day and the responsibilities of being an adult and all the things we have to do, get in the way and they start to shrink my focus.

So same as in Instagram and all of the other social networks, they just do because you're looking at things for like a shorter amount of time, so your brain will, will fragment itself. So I really have to protect my space in the morning and that is how I do it. And so. The day, the hardest thing is usually the first thing in the day, and then, you know, more of the admin related tasks. I, I try to push down because they're easier to do with like less, less focus. 

Zibby: Hmm. Love it. 

Yrsa: It isn't easy, but we do it because we have to. 

Zibby: Yeah. But everyone has their systems and I'm always, always hoping that I'll find a system that's like perfect. Like, oh no. It's, it's so easy to manage life. 

Yrsa: Yeah. 

Zibby: You know.

Yrsa: When you find it, tell me, because I sometimes under the weight of it, I'm like. This is a lot. 

Zibby: So on tour already for the book, tell me what you've been hearing that you're surprised about, or reactions to the book. You weren't expecting anything like that. 

Yrsa: Well the interest, so I've got two parts to that question. The interesting part about being on tour is you're on tour before the majority of people have read it.

Zibby: Yep. 

Yrsa: So it's in, it's new for me 'cause it's my first fiction novel, so it's new for me to be on a tour for a novel as opposed to be on tour for a poetry book, which, you know, when you're on tour for a poetry book, you just perform the poems and it's about the poems. And with a novel, you're reading an excerpt and talking about these characters that people haven't met yet.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Yrsa: So that's different. It's, it's a different gear and I think, yeah, I think, I think the other thing is that you've been alone with the work for so long and then all of a sudden it meets the air and I am excited. I am excited for people to, to reach them to, to, for the, the characters to reach people.

But in the few people that have read the book, I'm surprised at how deep into it some things that, you know, writing surprises us. So I'm surprised sometimes at, at the depth of it and, and what it reveals, the mirrors that, that it reveals about us all and how we cope and how we survive. And sometimes in the writing of something you don't realize.

How much, how much of yourself is in there, and also how much. How, how much you're working with, how much is in, in the sort of marrow, uh, and then it meets the air and you're like, wow, I really feel like this about this. So it is, it's, it, it's shocking and I'm so grateful that there's somewhere to put it. 

Zibby: I love that. I love it so much. Wait, tell me how you linked up with Glory Edim, because first of all, she's amazing. I've had her on the podcast a couple times, and in the back of the book there's a little description of well-read Black Girl Books. Can I just read it so that people understand what it is? So well-read Black Girl Books is a collection of magnetic debut fiction that invites readers to.

Explore powerful narratives rooted in diverse cultural experiences. These stories offer readers an opportunity to step into new worlds, expand their horizons, and experience the transformative power of fiction. Just as the well-read Black Girl community celebrates literature that resonates deeply. These books are crafted to not only be read, but cherished, shared, and revisited for years to come. Characters that stay with you long after the final page. Glory, Edim.

Yrsa: Glory is brilliant and you know, I've seen glory on this scene, as it were for years. For years. I remember meeting her at Sydney Writers Festival some six years ago and, but also being aware of her work in New York when we were both in New York.

And so this pairing, you know, things just seem to happen at the right time. This pairing was perfect and to be like the inaugural novel, like to be, to be the first one she's, she's putting out under this imprint is just, it's just one of those serendipitous things, which I think is really fantastic and I think she's brilliant and she. Just her, her taste and and her as a writer as well. 

Zibby: I agree. I'm a big fan. 

Yrsa: Me too. 

Zibby: Okay. Any advice for aspiring authors? 

Yrsa: Oh my God, I've got so much how to, how to truncate this. Uh, I think read everything, not just things you think you are into. So be surprised. Be surprised. There's something else. Say in your own work, in other people's work, in listening to people that you disagree fundamentally with.

Try see the humanity in people. Don't limit yourself because of, of culture or, or the, the overwhelming cultural voice. Listen to yourself, protect your, your attention and your focus and Yeah, and just, just, just your brain. Protect your brain from all of these kind of, you know, notifications and pings and just. Bids for your attention. Really claim that That's what, that's what I'll say. I'm trying to be succinct, but nice. 

Zibby: Protect yourself from the pings. I like that. 

Yrsa: Yes.

Zibby: It's true. It's so true. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for this book. It's so fun to read a voice that just literally jumps off the page and is like a, wow. So congrats. 

Yrsa: This was such a pleasure, Zibby Thank you so much for having me. 

Zibby: Oh, my pleasure was mine. Okay. Take care. 

Yrsa: Bye. Take care. 

Zibby: Bye.