Author Kitty Zeldis, a pseudonym drawn from her maiden name and college nickname, joins Zibby to discuss her new historical novel ONE OF THEM. Set at Vassar in the late 1940s, the book explores the complexities of identity, friendship, prejudice, and assimilation through the story of two young Jewish women navigating very different choices about how openly to live their Jewishness. Kitty shares how her own experiences shaped the novel, reflects on changing perceptions of Jewish identity on college campuses and beyond, and opens up about her writing process, career journey, and earlier works.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome Kitty. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about One Of Them, a novel. Congratulations.

Kitty: Thank you. 

Zibby: First of all, just wanna get this clear this up. You have a pseudonym? Why? 

Kitty: Well, because the previous novels that I wrote were contemporary and in 2018 I published a novel with Harper Collins called Not Our Kind, which is also in the forties, and they said, we think this is different enough to kind of warrant or relaunch.

Zibby: Hmm. 

Kitty: And so, I mean they asked me and Zeldas is my maiden name, so that felt obvious. And Kitty is a college nickname. I have a whole host of people who've called me Kitty for many years. And so it felt like quite natural and I thought, okay, we'll do it. 

Zibby: Wow. Very cool. Okay, so just had to ask. Okay. Tell listeners what one of them is about.

Kitty: Two, it's a friendship novel, not a romance. Uh, two young women who meet at Vassar in the, the late 1940s, both are Jewish, but one is pretending not to be Jewish. She thinks that this is, you know, she's an assimilated Jewish girl, so she's grown up around non-Jews and she's encountered various subtle forms of not so subtle forms of prejudice.

And she's decided college is a restart for her. Her father dies. Her mother's die, has been dead for a long time. Her father dies right before she goes to college, and she, and she has a. Very non-Jewish sounding last name because her father changed his name even though he functioned as a Jew in the world, he was getting started as a lawyer, and it seemed to him that it would be advantageous to not have a Jewish last name.

So she can get by with this name that does not sound Jewish. And she thinks this is gonna solve all her problems, but it only creates new problems that she couldn't possibly anticipate. So it's about the two of them and you know how they come together. Break apart and ultimately come together again.

Zibby: Would you mind if I read a little bit from some the beginning? 

Kitty: I'd be honored. 

Zibby: Okay, that would be great. There's a little bit about this being Jewish and the prejudice that comes right away. Okay. So the group of friends is talking about another woman, Delia, and they're. Not saying the word Jewish, but they mean that.

So this is sort of in the first chapter. So they're talking about her and they say, do you think she was doing something illicit? Illegal? Even Tabitha sounded mildly titillated by the possibility. Could be muse Peggy. Maybe she's a thief or a spy. The war was only just behind them. There had been a lot of talk about spies.

The girls fell silent for a moment as they tried to imagine Delia's clandestine mission, but no one had anything concrete to offer. Well, even if it's not anything like that, it's still strange. Midge finally said she's a strange girl, but they all are. Anne was well aware of what they meant. She'd heard it used the same way many times before.

What can you expect? Said Midge. Everyone knows they're a bit devious and that they keep to themselves exclusive, added Virginia and superior, like they think they're better than other people. There was a general murmur of ascent, although no one said they were Jewish aloud and knew that that was what they were talking about.

Being one of the few Jewish girls at VAs Deley was immediately set apart and her background had been a subject of intense interest and scrutiny since freshman year. And then she just goes on to figure out how she's gonna deal with this. And like any good Jewish person, she throws allergies into the conversation. So anyway, tell me, how did anything like this ever happen to you? Like where did this come from and what do we do with this level of prejudice then into now? 

Kitty: Well, those are two different questions. So let me address the first one. 

Zibby: Right. 

Kitty: Like how I told you this. I grew up in Brooklyn in a kind of middle class, you know, lower middle class neighborhood.

And it was segregated in a way, but comfortably so the, the Jewish kids went to the public school. There were Catholic kids, Italian Irish who went to the parochial school. We saw these kids, they saw us. We didn't hang out, but there was no animosity that I ever recall. They just kind of. Stuck to their own kind, and we stuck to our own kind.

Then in 1974, I went to Vassar and that was, uh, what can I say? 

Zibby: Did you, did you go to Nightingale, by the way? 'Cause I know you mentioned it in..,

Kitty: No, no,.. 

Zibby: Okay, okay. 

Kitty: I did not. I went to, I went to school in Brooklyn. 

Zibby: Okay. 

Kitty: But Vassar was many things. I mean, it was a wonderful place for me and truly an intellectual awakening.

But I suddenly was confronted with all these wasps. Very different than the kids I had, you know, known in my neighborhood. It was like a tsunami of them. And they excited me. They frightened me. I was disdainful. I was admiring. They were just so different. And I mean, that's how the name Kitty came about because I have a very Jewish sounding name.

Actually I have a Hebrew name. And I said to a good friend of mine, I don't belong here, Catherine Anne Worthington belongs here. And he said, Kitty. And that was it. Like in 1978. And I'm still Kitty. And now I'm Kitty on the page. So, you know, I, I kind of never, how to say this, I never really grew out of that like the intersection because I'm not, I'm Jewish, but not religious.

I've never been observant. My family was not, uh, in fact, and this sort of works its way into the novel, my parents who are Americans and grew up in Detroit, they went to Israel in 1949. You know, my, they, they wanted to be part of that and lived there for nine years. And my brother and I were both born there.

So. Being Jewish for me was connected with that only in a kind of abstract way. 'Cause we left when I was a baby. I didn't go back to Israel until I was 18. So that intersection of Jew, non-Jew and I married a man who wasn't Jewish and like that was never a problem for us. In fact, it was a good thing. So I, I continue to be interested in that.

Like, how are we gonna find our place? In this bigger world and setting it in the 1940s seemed good because those delineations were even more sharply drawn at that time. You know, I mean, you still have the word restricted being used very openly. Like can everyone who that meant you don't like those people?

They're not gonna be here. Don't worry. They're not gonna live near you. They're not gonna like be in the dining room with you at a hotel. So, you know, that's cool. Like, they know they don't belong here and we, we know they're gonna keep them out of here. So that was kind of where I was with this. 

Zibby: It's interesting, you know, taking this on a college campus and seeing what's going on on college campuses today and the craziness that has ensued. This is almost a precursor in a way, although, you know, things have just exploded. Tell me about that and what you think about. What's happened on college campuses and how this, a story like yours leads to something like this. 

Kitty: I am kind of shocked as I think many people my age are, and I read Brett Stevens in the time, so I read regularly who's Jewish, by the way. Like who knew with a name like that? And he said, you know, prior to this, like in the forties and the thirties, Jews were the undesirables, the vermin, the brown people, if you will. And now. We are undesirable in a different way now we're the white oppressors. Like we've turned into that and I still don't understand how that happened, but that seems where we are.

And though I feel very unhappy about what's going on in Israel, as do I have a close Israeli friend and you know, she's said that to me as well. But the reaction, even before October 7th, I kind of felt like being anti-Israel or anti-Zionist was a, a socially acceptable, even palatable. Admirable form of antisemitism.

Like you could talk, you wouldn't say the kinds of things you would've said in the past, but you could talk about this, and I don't really know where to go with that. I mean, I'm not a very politically engaged person. Honestly. It makes me wanna like go into that chair there and think, I don't know. I can't figure it out. I want everybody to be okay. Like I want everyone to just be okay and to live together in peace and harmony. That's what I want. 

Zibby: That would be amazing. 

Kitty: That would be amazing. Right? 

Zibby: That would be amazing. Oh my gosh. So how did you feel writing this book? When did you start writing it? Had October 7th happened? It must not have. 

Kitty: No, it did not. And I didn't know that Palestine was gonna be a part of this book. And I did get some, you know, mild pushback. Uh, you know, a couple people who said, are you like, this might be a really hot button. I are you sure you're up for that? 'cause they know me and I'm, I'm not. But it's where the story took me and I, I wanted to go there and I, and I really tried to offer a balanced view that everybody has a point of view here, and both points of view are valid.

I mean, you know, I, I think the Jewish presence there and the formation of the country was not wrong. Like people were displaced. And I understand that they felt unhappy about that. Uh, you know, of course they did. So I really tried hard to balance the view and not make it seem like the Jewish position, the Zionist position was the only, the only one that counted.

Zibby: Yep. 

Kitty: Because it's not, and just from a practical level, if you don't wanna hear the other side, there will never be peace. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Kitty: Like if you just say, I don't care, you're wrong. 

Zibby: Yep. 

Kitty: Like you've gotta be able to hear what the other side says in order to fashion some sort of plan for going forward. 

Zibby: Yes. It's hard to get out of any sort of conflict without communication.

Kitty: Right. It's like the personal literally becomes political. You know, if you are having a fight with your spouse or something and you say, I don't care how you feel, like that's not gonna work out very well, you're gonna have to hear it even if you don't like it. 

Zibby: Yeah, definitely not helping at the dinner table if.., 

Kitty: Nope.

Zibby: Nobody says I'm sorry, ever. You know? 

Kitty: Right. 

Zibby: We've, we've tried that. That doesn't work. Oh my gosh. Tell me a little bit about how you wrote the book. What you, how do you outlet, like the process of writing it, which pieces of the story stuck out to you from the beginning? Like, how did the whole thing come to be?

Kitty: Well, I knew the, I knew the Vassar piece, you know, and, and I, I felt like I could write about that very comfortably. As I said, I didn't know the Palestine piece. Paris was fun because he's in Paris. Always fun, love, love that. I don't work from an outline. I don't, I, I, I like to think character is what drives me, you know?

And if I know who these people are and what they want and what they don't want, you know, like they kind of take me along and say, okay, I'm doing this now. Now it's your turn. You have to write it. Um, I, I let that be the guide and I think that's like not, I mean, that's a pretty standard way. I think a lot of writers work that way.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. Do you ever continue characters on, like, would you ever sort of fast forward, write a contemporary. Novel about? 

Kitty: I don't think so. I don't think so. 

Zibby: Got into it. 

Kitty: Like I, I mean, maybe, I don't wanna say never, but like with this book, I feel like I did what I wanted to do. 

Zibby: Yep. 

Kitty: And I would like to go on to something else.

Zibby: And tell me between Vassar and now how you, you've written many books and before your shift to this particular genre, talk about becoming an author and how you overcame any obstacles along the way.

Kitty: Well, I didn't set out to be an author. I actually went to grad school in art history because I majored in art history and as an undergrad, and I liked it and I thought, okay, I guess I'll do more of this. And I went to Columbia and I found out that everything I liked about being an undergraduate was not true at Columbia.

Like it was so different. It's a big program. I have a good friend, in fact, the one who called me Kitty for the first time who went to Yale, he was an art historian. They accepted eight people in the PhD program. Columbia accepted 60. So they're kind of counting on a lot of people not completing it. And you know, whereas an undergraduate, I felt like a little African violet over whom a cohort of professors were leaning and saying, grow, thrive, blossom.

And you know, at Columbia. Everybody had a briefcase. 

Zibby: Mm. 

Kitty: And I got a briefcase too 'cause I was there with classes. Did not help. Did not help at all. So while and, and they didn't gimme money. That was another thing, like when there are eight students at Yale, they fund all of them. And you know, nobody's going into art history to make a lot of money.

That's like not a profession that generally is very remunerative. So I'm in debt and in this program that I can see is not really like working out for me. And while I'm there, I'm allowed to take classes elsewhere in the university. I take a fiction writing class. And like that was it. I had, you know, Oprah's aha moment.

I thought, you mean you could do this with your life? I'm gonna do this with my life. And I worked myself out of grad school. I got the MA because I thought, well, we've already spent this money. We might as well have a degree for what it's worth. So I did that, and then I just set about trying to become a writer.

I think, you know, I, I know I briefly entertained the MFA idea, but I was already in debt. I didn't wanna be in any more debt. It comes started. So I wrote things for free. You know, to get clips. And then I was able to get more clips and writing assignments, and I kept writing fiction, mostly short stories.

So I, I did begin work on a novel. I didn't have my first novel published until I was 45. So, you know, it took me a while to get there, but I had two unpublished novels before that. So I wrote them, didn't publish them, but it was a path. It was a good path. It got me where I wanted to go. So I feel fortunate in that.

Zibby: And which of the other books not in this genre, which are you most proud of? 

Kitty: Hmm. Hm hm hm Well, I, I'm very partial to the first one, uh, which is called the Four Temperaments. And for the letter mains out there, that's the type, that's the name of a well-known Balanchine Ballet. And I was a bun head before that term was used.

I went from Brooklyn to Manhattan. First four days, then five days and six days a week. All through,.. 

Zibby: Wow. 

Kitty: High school and, and high school until I was 17. And I thought I would do that. And somewhere in there I knew I was neither talented enough, nor devoted enough to do this. So I left it very abruptly.., 

Zibby: Hmm 

Kitty: And went to college and, and it coincided with my parents', very unpleasant divorce. So I just didn't look at it, you know, I just like shut it out of my life. And later on it began to haunt me. That I had left in such an abrupt way and that I thought, you know, you could have incorporated this into your life in some fashion and not had it be a professional interest. But nevertheless, this kind of defined you for years, and so that that novel was like a waiting vessel.

Like all that feeling I had about those years and what it mentioned. I could pour into that. And the character, you know, one of the main characters in that novel is, is the dancer. I wasn't who was that talented and was that driven and, you know, what was her story gonna be? So, I, I feel good about that novel.

Zibby: How did all that dancing affect your body image? 

Kitty: Oh, you know, dancers, I mean, but, but in this country in general, like as a woman, your body's never right. I mean, I look at my daughter who's in her twenties and I think she's perfect. And you know, she'll complain like, I don't like this, I don't like that.

And I kind of wanna say, honey, it's as good now as it's ever gonna be enjoyable. But, but you know, that sounds like that might send the wrong message. Like, I don't, I don't think it's possible to be a woman in this culture and not feel insufficient in some way. Like, there's always something wrong with you.

Yes. And ballet does exacerbate that unfortunately. But, uh, I'm not so hard line about it. I mean. You know, there are lots of different kinds of dancing and I do think ballet is best performed by people with a certain body type. I just do, you know, I mean, unless it's not politically correct to say that, but that's kind of my view.

Zibby: It's okay. I won't tell you anyone. 

Kitty: Okay. 

Zibby: Uh, what are you working on now? 

Kitty: Well, I'm launching this baby out into the world. That'll take some doing I have an idea for a book. That would be said partially. I don't wanna do the forties again. Maybe in the 1950s. That has some kind of war component. But also in the 18th century in Amsterdam, a woman who was a painter named Rachel Rausch, who was in her time more successful than Rembrandt, and it was still life painter.

So like not the kind of thing that you just learn in a day or a week or a month, like it takes years to do this. And she was initially schooled by her father, who was an amateur, came to like, that relationship really interests me, like. Girls weren't even expected to read much less paint like that. And yet he must have loved her very much.

And, you know, wanting this for her and making sure that it happens. So I want, I, I like some sections of this too, deal with that. Uh, but it's no more than an idea at this moment. 

Zibby: That's okay. And what books are you particularly drawn to reading? 

Kitty: Here's a really disappointing thing. I cannot read a novel when I'm writing one. It's like I, I, it's like I'm trying to tune into a voice in my head, and if I read a novel, then I get confused. It's like static on the radio. Like I'm hearing that voice and I wanna hear this voice. So I have to stick to other kinds of reading. I read poetry. I like poetry a lot. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Kitty: And I tend to read poetry that I've read before, like. Like an old frame, you can come back to it again and again. And like I can read nonfiction. I read, I read a really cool book where I think it's right here, called UH, when Women ran Fifth Avenue about department stores. And it was really enjoyable. So I can read things like that, but it's, I have to say, it's a loss not to be reading novels. I kind of don't know who I am when I don't, but I can't do it when I'm writing. What, so,..

Zibby: Okay. Well, at least you know yourself. I mean.

Kitty: I know myself. 

Zibby: And what advice would you give to aspiring authors?

Kitty: Persistence is as important as talent. Like you cannot be daunted by rejection. You know, it's just one person's opinion. It doesn't, it's not a global judgment on who you are as a writer or who you'll become. So I think you just have to be like, back in the day when I was sending out stories, you sent them out snail mail, and when I got one back. I made myself get it back in the mail in, in 48 hours. I had a 48 hour rule because that was the thing that took the sting of rejection away.

Like, okay, it didn't get accepted there, but it has a chance somewhere else. And I think that's, that's really important to, and not just to know that, but to put that into practice, you know, to keep. To just keep trying. It sounds kind of dull, but I am the, the fiction editor of Lilith Magazine and I have been for like 20 years.

So I get that from like, people say like, well, what's wrong with it? Or what should I do? Or why didn't you accept it? And uh, I don't have time for a lengthy conversations, but I do say to people, it's just my opinion, like, what doesn't work for me might be perfect for someone else. Keep sending it out. You know, I'm not telling you it isn't good.

I'm telling you sometimes it isn't. That's true, but that's just a subjective. You know, response, right? I'm telling it doesn't work for me. And for what we're looking for here, big world out there, lots of places to publish. 

Zibby: And for those who are looking to publish in Lilith, for example, and actually. Someone just interviewed me from there, so I have a piece coming out soon, I think. 

Kitty: Oh, that's wonderful. 

Zibby: Yeah. Anyway,..

Kitty: I right. I didn't know. 

Zibby: Yeah. I think it's gonna be in this coming,..

Kitty: Coming issue. 

Zibby: Yeah. Yeah. 

Kitty: In the fall? 

Zibby: By, uh, Lauren Elisa Green. She interviewed me about the bookstore and owning a bookstore and all that. Anyway,..

Kitty: Well, we're gonna share that issue because there was an excerpt from one of them in that fall. 

Zibby: Oh, great. No, perfect. So if people are interested in getting their fiction published, like what do you tell them? Like exactly. Not advice so much, but like what are you looking for and can people submit unsolicited?

Kitty: Yes. Go. Go to our website. Our guidelines are there. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Kitty: It has to be, has some feminist feminine con content. Like I think there's only one time in all the years that I've been doing this that we published something with a male point of view, piece of fiction. Like women are not the objects in our story, like in what we publish, they're the subjects and it has to have some Jewish content, although that can be, that's a sort of loose term.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Kitty: Like I have been good at what I call teasing out late Jewish content and things like where, where it's not explicitly Jewish, but I feel like. There's Jewish content in here. I just need to help. You know, I will work with the author and say, is that what you meant? And if so, could you just bring it out a little bit more?

And here's how. And that has worked. And it can't be over 3000 words. We have a limited print run. I mean, our pages, there are always a certain number of pages. We never go above that. And so I get people that send a story that's 6,000 words and I have to write them back and say, I can't even consider this.

Like, you've gotta either cut it or send me something else. But because we are a double niche, I don't feel like we get as many submissions as I would personally like. So I wanna say to people. Send me your stories. I will read them, I will read them quickly. And in fact, in a couple of occasions people have been grumpy.

They thought I read it so quickly that I didn't really consider it, but that's not true. It goes into my personal email. If I see it there, I wanna read it soon so it doesn't slip down and like get away from me. And I know from being on the other side of this, even though it's not fun to hear, no, I'd rather hear no than be waiting and just thinking like, did they get it?

Did it just vanish into some like cyber hole somewhere? Uh, like give me an answer and I'll move on, right? If the answer isn't no, the answer is no. I'll send it out to you. So that's my advice. Like go to the website, look, it tells you just how to do it. You can do it through Submittable and I will read it. I'll even look forward to reading it. So please send me your work. 

Zibby: Amazing. Now you're inspiring me. I don't even write short fiction, but you never know. 

Kitty: You never know. 

Zibby: You never know. Thank you so much, kitty. This was so fun. 

Kitty: You're welcome. 

Zibby: Thank you for this beautiful novel and getting to go back to school when it's still summer without all the stress. So thank you for that and for, you know, all you do to elevate voices and everything. So thank you. 

Kitty: Same. I really, really enjoyed this. Thank you. 

Zibby: Alright, thank you so much. Okay, bye-bye.