In this very special episode (and live event at the Streicker Center), Zibby interviews a literary icon: the extraordinary Judy Blume. Judy shares deeply personal stories—including how she coped with anxiety as a young girl, her childhood secrets, her complex relationship with religion, her journey into writing, and her evolution from children’s literature to adult fiction. The discussion touches on love, marriage, motherhood, aging, tap dancing, the joys of running a bookstore, and what it means to live a creative, meaningful, and enduringly curious life. Finally, she reflects on her legacy, gratitude for her readers, and the seriousness of today’s book-banning climate.

Transcript:

Host: I am thrilled to introduce tonight's extraordinary guest, a Library of Congress living legend, whose 29 books have sold 92 million copies. 92 million copies. Amazing.

But perhaps even more remarkable is that five of those books are among the most banned in America. Yeah. At that half a century ago, Judy Bloom climbed to the pinnacle of American literary heights. As the first author to write young adult novels dealing openly with such taboo topics as puberty and sexuality, becoming the voice of young people hungry for the type of honesty she elevated to an arc form.

Today, we may take such candor for granted, but that's because Judy Bloom opened the door and shaped generations to follow, but she didn't stop there. Just when Ritas thought she might have been satisfied being the Queen of Young Adult Narrative at the age of 40, she found her way into the hearts of adult women with a New York Times bestseller wifey, followed by Summer Sisters and Indian Likely Event, and those who didn't read Boom, discovered her stories on TV or in the movies from CBS's Forever, which recently became a Netflix series to otherwise known as Sheila The Great.

The TV series FIA Tiger Eyes, and finally. Most recently, are you there? God, it's me, Margaret, take a look.

Temple Emmanuel is extremely honored to welcome Judy Bloom as she joins us in conversation with Zibby Owens. 

Zibby: Welcome everybody. Thank you for being here. So excited to be talking to Judy Bloom tonight. Let's give another round of applause.

Judy: Thank you all for coming. This is so exciting. It's a, it's amazing. I have to pretend I'm just talking to Zibby. 

Zibby: Yeah, let's keep doing what we were doing on the couch. We were chatting and then we kept being like, no, no, let's save that too. Let's save that. Let's save that. So, Judy, here we are at Temple Emmanuel, why don't we start by talking about your religion, your growing up, your relationship to God, and how you incorporate that into your life. 

Judy: Yes. Well, that's like what kind of child I was. So I, well, I mean, if you know the books, you probably know me and what kind of child. I was much like the child in starring Sally j Friedman as herself, uh, which is my most autobiographical book. I was imaginative and thinking about it recently.

I think a lot of that was because the adults in my life, kept secrets. I hated secrets. I still hate secrets. I know you're keeping something from Zibby. 

Zibby: I'm not, I promise, I promise you can. I'll give you anything you want. 

Judy: Secrets. And so I made up, you know, I was a kid and it was always like if the kid walked by the room, the adults stop, the, the kinder.

So I made everything up. And what I made up was sometimes much worse than what it would've been in real life. 

Zibby: I remember from your documentary you talked about hearing grownups, talking about Nazis and all of that, and you changed it to make up into, you know, fairytales or something. 

Judy: Oh, I don't, I don't know.

Zibby: No, you don't wanna talk about it. Okay. 

Judy: But that's okay. But I, well, I mean, I, I came from a family. My father had grown up as an Orthodox Jew, and he married my mother who was Jewish, but not, not religious and her family didn't keep kosher and you know, it was, I, I think probably my father's mother was not happy about that.

I would just tell you, I had two grandmothers. One I was very, very close to that was nanny mama, the other I was a little uncomfortable with that was Grandma Sussman. You just know right away, you know, I, grandma Sussman didn't really speak English. And Nanny Mama was just fun and accepting. And my brother used to say, nanny is the only one who just loves us unconditionally.

He probably didn't use that word, but that's what he meant. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Judy: And she was, and, and so my relationship with God was very, very personal and I think it really started when I was separated from my father because you know, we, it's a long story. It's a book, but we had to move to Miami Beach because my brother was sick and the doctor said, no, no, he can't spend the winter in New Jersey.

And so there we were in Miami Beach, but my father, a dentist, had to stay home in New Jersey and work. So I was separated from this parent that I loved more than anyone in the whole world. And he loved me back and I felt that it was my job. It was such a burden for a 9-year-old child. I felt it was my job to keep him safe and keep him healthy.

His siblings had all died at a very young age, his forties, and he was now in his forties. He was approaching the bad year. I think it was 43 when two of his brothers, both dentists had died. And so, you know, for a kid, a little kid like that, you, you don't share it with anybody. You don't say, guess what I'm doing, but I made bargains with God and I had certain prayers that I invented that I had to say. A certain number of times every day. I had to keep him safe. That was my job and.. 

Zibby: So much pressure. 

Judy: I know, but you know, you're a little kid and, and.. 

Zibby: Today you'd probably get some medicine for that. You might just get some medicine for that generalized anxiety.

Here's a therapist. Anyway,.. 

Judy: But then I kept it all inside. I never told anyone even after, you know, I never told anyone about that. I wrote the book because that's what I did. That's how I told people by writing a book. So,.. 

Zibby: But then the worst did end up happening with your father right before your wedding and I'm so sorry.

Judy: Yeah, that was pretty terrible. He was 54. Yeah. It was, uh. Ralph, but he's there. He's around. 

Zibby: His name was Ralph. 

Judy: No, no. 

Zibby: Oh. I was like, that's so weird. 

Judy: Not Ralph. 

Zibby: If that's really true. That's I'm talking about forever. Obviously you know that's from forever. Right? I know. 

Judy: Don't mix up Ralph with Rudolph. 

Zibby: He was speaking of therapist.

We're really gonna have to dive into this. 

Judy: He was Rudolph, my father was Rudolph.

Zibby: Yeah. So you started. Telling stories to yourself, getting yourself through all of these things. When did you realize you had a gift? 

Judy: Oh, maybe when the New York Times told me and I saw you, it's like, look at this.

Oh my God, maybe I can really do this. I mean, no. 

Zibby: So it wasn't a teacher or someone in your life growing up who said, you know what, Judy, you're pretty good at this. 

Judy: No, you know, creative writing wasn't stress when I was growing up in school. Am I right Joanne? Pay attention. My, I have a friend in the audience, and we were friends from the time we were 10, and she's the one with the memory whenever I, I forget and I have to say, what was that thing in Elizabeth that we did in a Joanne knows.

Who was that person? Joanne always knows. 

Zibby: So Joanne must all thank secrets. 

Judy: I'm thankful for Joanne and our friendship. 

Zibby: Yeah. Okay. So when then is the first time you tried to publish something that you wrote? 

Judy: Well, so I went to college and I got a degree in education because my mother told me that's what you have to do in case God forbid you ever have to get a job because, you know, it was a different generation.

And, but I had always played school. I had always liked school and teachers, and I had teachers in the family, and so I, I really did want to become a teacher. I never did. Don't know if I would've been any good at it, but I,

Zibby: I would argue that you have done a lot of teaching through your books, 

Judy: but I did.

And, um, wait, how did we get here? Uh, uh, 

Zibby: we were talking about Joanne, we were talking about when you first got published. When you said school for, when did 

Judy: I first send something in? Yeah. So I had, I married when I was still in college, as we many of us did, then had two babies. By the time I was 25 and I liked having babies and I liked taking care of babies, but something big was missing in my life, and that was, you know, had all this creative energy locked up.

I had to let it out somehow. So I got the idea that I would start writing rhyming, rhyming picture books, and I would illustrate them. I still draw smiley faces. I'm not an illustrator. I had color pa colored pencils and nice paper, and I put them together with little brass fasteners and I was gonna be the next Dr. Seuss because my name was Sussman very close and I sent them, I sent them in to publishers knowing nothing. And they came back with rejection letters and you know, the first rejection letter is painful. I went into the closet and I cried only that one, and then I was determined and I said, well, yes, maybe those are no good, but wait till they see what I'm gonna do next.

And I just kept going and going and going. And I did find a course at NYU in the, you know, whatever it is. What do you call that? School for Continuing Education. And I met a teacher there who encouraged me. 

Zibby: Yeah, I knew there was a teacher at some point and there's always a teacher.

Judy: And she was so supportive that when that semester ended, I signed up and I took it again.

I took the same class again because I didn't wanna lose contact with her. It wasn't that she was a wonderful teacher, but when you find somebody like that who is supportive and encouraging, you just wanna keep going. And so I did, and she gave me a rose in class when my first stories were published. Oh, she was?

She was great. 

Zibby: That's so amazing. 

Judy: Yeah. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. And when did you decide not kids? Yes, grownups. 

Judy: Oh, years and years and years went by and it wasn't until, you know, I saw, started, my first book was published I think in the end of 69. Nobody here was even born then, except Joanne and me, and it wasn't until 78. I think that I was like, you know, there's this other side of me. There's, because I am a woman. I'm not 12 years old. Of all the kids thought I was 12 years old and I'm, I'm not 12 years old. I am a woman and I have a story to tell. And I sat down to write that story. It was very, very tough.

It took three months to get a tone that was wifey. And it took me three months to try find the voice. That's the most important thing. You know, this was not a first person voice, but this was a woman with a story and. I had fun writing that book so naughty. When people come into my bookstore now and they say, oh, how about this one?

I, I look at them and I kind of size them up and I say, that one is very, very naughty. And surprisingly, the people who I think definitely should not read this book say that's the one for me, and I'm talking about women. Not kids. 

Zibby: Wait, what does a woman who doesn't wanna read a naughty book look like? What are we wearing?

Okay, well, anyway, um, moving on. Okay.

Judy: So, and that was fun. Uh, but then I, you know, I, I was not finished with kids books. I went right back to it. But four, four times in, you know, from 78 until the last one, which was 15 years ago, four times I had stories to tell. 

Zibby: And along the way you ended up going through different marriages.

Judy: Oh yes. 

Zibby: Falling in love. 

Judy: Oh my goodness. Yes. 

Zibby: Okay, let's go there. 

Judy: However, however, you gotta gimme some credit guys, because my, my guy, my best of 45 years we've been together is right there in the audience.

So yeah, I made a couple of mistake. I mean, the first one wasn't a mistake. We were together for 16 years. We had two kids. We had a lot of history and we stayed friends and, and that history carried us through all those years that we weren't married. Married to different people. 

Zibby: And what is the secret to staying married for 45 years?

Judy: Oh. Exhaustion. I mean, who wants to do that again? No finding, I mean, oh, what is the secret? The secret? I don't know that there's a secret. The, the secret is you're just a lot smarter and you know, I mean, you can't give us any credit. We moved in together on our second date because you did things like that in the late seventies, you know, I mean, and my kid, you know, I had kids, it was tough.

They, it was like, oh, what is she doing now? She's letting this guy move in. But sometimes it works and we are very lucky. 

Zibby: Well, speaking of secrets, I also wanted to know what the secrets are to aging so beautifully. Okay. I mean, oh,.. 

Judy: We shouldn't get credit for that because a lot of that is, you know, who knows what that is?

Genes luck. Who knows why? 

Zibby: What is your workout regimen? Let me hear all the details. Skincare and workouts. 

Judy: I used to work out a lot more, but since Covid, since Covid, it's different. But I will say that the thing that I think, and the thing that I miss the most is tap dancing. I took up tap dancing when I moved to New York with George, so I don't know, it was around 45 maybe he's gonna change this 43. 

Judy's Husband: Yeah. 

Judy: 40 something. 

Judy's Husband: 1982. 83. 

Judy: Okay. 1981 or two or three. Um, I was walking, since you're all New Yorkers, I was walking past Zbars and then around the corner on 81st Street maybe, and I looked up and I, and I saw a tap dance class. I could see them tapping and I had never I had never tapped because, you know, my mother was a Jewish mother in New Jersey and she said, Jewish girls take ballet.

So I did. I took ballet and I loved it because I loved to dance. Give me, you know, music and I'll dance whatever I have to dance, but tapping, slapping your feet around and I stayed in that class for five years, I think, and that was before we really moved to Key West. And then there was a guy in Key West who taught the same class in Key West, and I took that until Lee left. Tap dancing is wonderful. It's great for your spine, it's great for everything. 

Zibby: You, you wanna do a, a little bit here, but I don't. 

Judy: Well, like I'm getting ready. 

Zibby: I know, I see that. 

Judy: I'm getting ready. I know itching to, itching to get up and my feet are itchy, but no, I'm not going to.

But I do think that, that, that was, um, just a great time and. I miss that. I miss that. I mean, you know, I've always, I've been active and I like to dance so. I used to do jazzercize. Does anybody remember Jazzercize? Yes. I liked all that Jazzercize stuff. Oh yes. 

Y-M-C-A 

I like that. I used to go to those classes.

We lived in New Mexico, then I used to go to those classes in Santa Fe and yeah, and then I went to a gym. But when Covid came along, George and I, we stopped going to the gym. It just wasn't safe for us. But we never stop because, you know, we live in Key West and it, the weather's nice. And so we never stop doing the two mile walks every day.

And we, we still do that. And except when I work at the bookstore those three days a week, I got enough going on at the bookstore. I can't do the walk too. So yeah, let's just keeping active, right? Just keeping active. 

Zibby: Yeah, I walked from, 

Judy: my mother used to say, 

Zibby: that's my activity for 

Judy: Zibby this is for you. My mother used to say, make sure you always have younger friends.

Zibby: So now I have a new younger friends weighted vest. Whatever we do, whatever we can do. Let's talk about bookstore life. So we both own bookstores, we, which is greatest joy in the world to 

Judy: I'm into Zibby's bookstore. 

Zibby: Thank you. 

Judy: In LA, in Santa Monica. 

Zibby: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

Judy: Right. Very sweet bookstore. 

Zibby: So how do you do your bookstore buying?

Are you in charge of buying, do you No, no. Do you have any input at all? 

Judy: We, uh, yes, but we, our buyer works for Mitchell Kaplan in his Miami books and books. We are an affiliate of that wonderful books and bookstore and but we're so small that, and he has such a great buyer. She buys for all his stores and for us.

And yes, I mean the lists come and you can say, no, I don't want that book. Or, oh, I really get, send me five. Or You never know. And a book takes off in your particular store that isn't, or We do a lot of staff recommendation cards, a lot of them, and it is amazing how well they sell books. Our customers are mainly tourists.

They're getting off cruise ships. I always wear a mask. Getting off cruise ships, they're, they're coming for a visit. They're flying down from all over, all over the world, really. And, uh, and they're buying books. We, you know, we never knew that the people on those cruise ships read. And now, and now we love them.

They do. They come in and they buy books, but I mean, there's a book that I've been, and I've been hand selling a book called My Darling Boy by um, John Dufrene. 

Zibby: I have not read that,.. 

Judy: I have never heard of him. There was a wonderful review one Monday in The Times and new books coming on Tuesday and the book came in and I took it home and I read it and I thought, what a great original voice this guy has.

And so I wrote a little card and because of that, you know, people are buying and reading John  Dufrene, who might not. Now I've just ordered an earlier book of his called Louisiana Light and Power Company. Do you know that? 

Zibby: No. 

Judy: I think it's gonna be wonderful too. 

Zibby: Maybe after this discussion it will hit the bestseller list as a result just of this.

Judy: And I met him because I recently spoke at a college in Florida. Forget what college,.. F-I-U, Florida International University and John Frain is a professor there and I said, oh my god, can I meet this guy? So, you know, we kind of fell into each other's arms. It was very sweet. I met his wife too, starting to get a nervous there.

It's exciting. It's exciting when you find. A new book and a writer that you don't know, and you are able to then introduce new readers to this writer. You know, we love our best sellers. I try to read as many as I can, but it's also that wonderful moment of finding somebody new and wonderful. 

Zibby: It's, it's such a gift to be able to give someone hours of entertainment just from a little suggestion.

That is the best. Talk about why. In, in, in the unlikely event. Why is this your going to be your last book? 

Judy: Well, I knew that when, when I was writing it, I really felt it's a very important book to me. People ask me in the store, what is your favorite of your books? And lately I have been telling them, I mean, these are adults, you know, telling them about this book.

It's a story that I had inside since I was 14 and my daughter became a commercial airline pilot. And when she read this book, she said, mother, I can't believe you never told me this story. Why? Why didn't I ever tell? Why was I a writer of fiction for 40 years with an incredible story inside me? And I never, I never forgot it, but I never thought to write it or maybe I thought I couldn't write it. Maybe I wasn't ready to write it. I don't know. But it took five years and a lot of research because it takes place, you know, in 19 51, 19 52, Joanne was there. She remembers it all. Uh, and. It's a complicated book with a lot of characters. When the book was about to come out, I said to my editor, Carol Baron, I said, Carol, you know those lists, um, that are in books of characters and who, the, and family members and little family trees and all of that.

I think we should do that. And she said to me, Judy, this is not a Russian novel, but that's not the end of the story. A year later when the paperback was gonna come out, Carol called and said, you know, that idea you had, I think we should do it now. There are a lot of characters. And it was just, I don't know, it's just, I just felt, this is it.

I'm going out on this book, this, I don't want to do this anymore. I can't spend another five years locked up. And then it was like out of the sky the next day. Came this bookstore. I was so lucky because the creative energy was still there, but I really didn't wanna write anymore. Suzanne, my agent is here.

Zibby: She, she's still crying. 

Judy: It's hard to explain that. No, I really don't wanna do that anymore. I, you know, I have other things I wanna do. So, so that's, and, and because it was so much, you know, going back to what I knew as a kid and what I remembered in the early fifties, people say, how did you know all that?

It was like I was there, but also I did a lot of research. And so it was a, it was an exciting book. I know they had 25 copies out there, so some of you must 

Zibby: raise your hand if you've got a copy. 

You are the lucky, lucky recipient, right? 

Judy: Yeah. Okay. 

Zibby: Um, so now that the writing is over, there has been an uptick in adaptations. Yes. Are you there? God, it's me, Margaret, which was such an amazing movie and book, of course, but the movie, oh my gosh,.. 

Judy: I love the movie. I loved it so much. I'm the only writer who ever went out on like a tour and said to everybody, that movie is better than my book. Because it is, and it's a wonderful movie.

And working with that team was like a dream. A dream team. 

Zibby: And now you've introduced your work through the movie to a whole new generation, which is wonderful.

Judy: I hope. I hope, and now Forever is out there. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Judy: Um, and that's totally different. And I, I wasn't involved with that. I'm, you know, a woman came to me and she made a pitch and we bonded over a blue framed eyeglasses, and she told me what she wanted to do.

And I thought it was interesting. I was never gonna do Forever. I just didn't think it would work for this generation. And she came up with a way it's, it's black and it's LA in 2018 and I think it's pretty good. I've seen eight, all eight episodes and I'm current, 

Zibby: Currently available on Netflix for everybody's viewing enjoyment.

Judy: Yeah, I think, I think she did it a very interesting job with it, so I am pleased. 

Zibby: So does this mean there will be other adaptations? 

Judy: I hope so. I want Summer Sisters. Yeah, I want Summer Sisters. Thank you. Thank you. And I want a musical based on Sally Friedman as her song. Yeah. Yes. And if they don't do it, I'll do it myself.

I'll just tap dance and sing all those songs. Sally. In Miami Beach in 1948. 

Zibby: I love it. Suzanne, please get on that. Okay, good. So you're walking two miles a day. Now you're in the bookstore three days a week. You look back at your whole career and you think, what 

Judy: I think how lucky I am and that, you know, my book is meant something and means something to readers.

I mean. What? What does every writer dream of first you dream of maybe someday I'll be published and then you dream. Maybe someday someone will read something that I've written. And then you get greedier, you know, maybe someday I'll hear from one of them. And, um, there's someone in this audience who wrote to me when she was 12.

She was one of the kids who wrote to me and we're still friends. So I mean, that's, that is special. 

Zibby: That's amazing. And what's going on with the project at Yale, with Bionic Library and all of the letters that were written to you, which are archived there. Last time we spoke there was mention of a biography going on.

Is that happening? 

Judy: I don't know. 

Zibby: Okay. 

Judy: I'm not, 

Zibby: You don't know? 

Judy: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: Okay. Well, there, there, 

Judy: I of course don't really want that. You know, I, the documentary was wonderful and so I'm. I didn't want that either. 

Zibby: And can anyone go to Beneke Library and read the letters or do you have to get special permission?

Do you know 

Judy: George? 

George: Any anybody can. 

Judy: Oh, anyone can go and read the letters. You can't copy them and you can't take them out. I think that's what it,.. 

Zibby: Has anyone been here to see the letters? Ike Library. Okay. We have a field trip coming. Wow. Amazing. When you look back and think about your own advocacy, right, book Banning, you've taken a stance on this early on since your earliest books were banned as well.

How do you feel about that? And especially in today's world? 

Judy: Uh, so I went through this in the eighties big time book, banning what's happening today. In this country makes that look like you know nothing. It is so bad. It is so dangerous. It is so serious. I live in Key West, which we like to pretend isn't in the state of Florida.

Um, but we have the same governor and we have the same legislature, and I have librarians come into the store who tell me that they've had to remove all books from the library. The library is now used only for study hall. Uh, it's, it's just awful, awful, awful. But there's always the, but, but there are some advocacy groups out there that are doing such incredible work, such good work that I just have to, you know, be thankful for them, work with them, do whatever they ask me to do.

Kind of, I mean, I take that back. If any of you're in the audience, uh, and they're, you know, they're not sitting down, they're working with the, you know, trying to get the bills and state legislatures not to pass, and they just managed to do that with a great, what would've been a horrible bill in Florida, a, a truly devastating bill.

Now they will be the first to tell you that next year when the legislature meets again. There could be the same bill, there could be a worse bill. I don't know how it could be worse, but everybody needs to be aware of this and take a stand wherever you can. If you can't do anything yourself, join one of these fabulous groups, you know, national Coalition Against Censorship, Authors Against Book Bans. Penn America is doing a fabulous job. They've even started, uh, Penn, Florida. Because things are so bad there, so I, I mean, I'm living right in the middle of almost the worst of it, you know, so far bookstores are okay. Nobody's bothering with bookstores. 

Zibby: Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Judy: That's, lets keep, let's keep it that way. 

Zibby: Going back to your role as a mom, you mentioned early on you were a young mom, you were overwhelmed, you were missing this creative outlet. How has your role as a mom informed your writing and your life to date? 

Judy: I am a better mom now. I didn't know what I was doing, you know, and I think, you know, dragging the kids through two divorces at 12 and 14 was very tough for them.

You can't go back and the only thing you can do is say, I am really sorry. And I am, but our family is a much better, tighter. Wonderful family today. We, uh, you know, for 45 years we've had George's daughter as such a part of it. So it's just good. We're at a good place. So yeah. 

Zibby: I did see an Instagram thing pop up yesterday that said the best thing for kids is to have a happy mom.

Right. That's the most, there was some statistic, which I can't remember right. But you're being a happy mom. Informs. 

Judy: Yeah. But I was an unhappy mom for a while that yes, I'm a happy mom now. They're in their sixties now, but it's never too late, you know? Um, but you know, for 45 years it's been good stuff. 

Zibby: At my second wedding, my mom let me borrow this necklace, and as she put it on me, she was like, I got this necklace on my 50th birthday and maybe one day I'll let you have it.

And I was like, mom, I'm in my forties already. Anyway. Uh, you're never, you're always a young kid, right? No matter how old you are with your, ..

Judy: You're always a kid inside. That kid is always inside. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. Okay. I know you can't pick favorites and that. In an unlikely event is the the most powerful, because it's your last.

But of the books for kids, is there one that stands out to you or that you feel most grateful for or that. I don't know. You have some sort of connection to aside maybe the one you were mentioning earlier about that was the most autobiographical, but, 

Judy: Oh, Sally, 

Zibby: Tell me more. Yeah. 

Judy: Um, well, it's hard, you know, they're like your children, so it's hard to pick a favorite.

I always tell people who ask me at the bookstore, it's like, you know, one day it's this one and one day it says, huh. I mean, I'll always be grateful to Fudge. Fudge brought me so many readers, right? I think there's two little fudge readers there. And, and Margaret of course, because Margaret brought me everything and I didn't know what I was doing.

I truly, truly didn't know what I was doing. I just sat down and I wrote that book, the first book that I wrote from Deep Inside, just let go and. That's what came out. I had a wonderful editor, the best editor who supported me and encouraged me, and he was perfect. He was so great. He worked with me on all of the books from from Iggy's House to Forever. Icky house to forever. We worked on together. We had a lot of laughs over forever. Yes. 

Zibby: And to aspiring authors out there, do you have advice? Is it just to be authentic and write from your heart? What would you, what would you tell the young writer who's like sitting in the front row? Let's pretend. 

Judy: Young writers, I would say don't give up.

And that determination. May be as important as talent because so many talented people give up and you know, the idea of criticism can be very hard and we have to take it because we get it. You know, I used to take a red pencil and scribble bitch on bad reviews. But I never, but I never, you know, I never told the reviewers that I did, but it's painful.

There's no question and, but you have to, you, you have to keep going. You have to go. I mean, that's true for any, any creative arts, right? I mean, you can be on stage, you can get a terrible review, you can be anywhere. It's, it's hard. It's hard, but you do it. And for people who wanna write the, I once had a woman say, I've bought, I don't know, 17 books on how to write.

But that's not how you learn to write. You learn to write because you read. You read, read, read. I've never understood kids who say, I don't like to read, but I'm going to be a writer when I grow up. No, you're not, because it's about reading and that's how you learn. You learn to write because you read and then you write, write, write, and you throw it away and you get better.

You keep going. I mean, that's what I think. Anyway. I don't know. 

Zibby: I love that. In addition to the book you were recommending earlier, do you have any genres in particular that you love to read or books that you've loved? Lately? 

Judy: I'm, I'm really bad because I, you know, there's so many sections in a bookstore and you would think that I would know everything in the middle grade, I know nothing.

I know nothing in this. You know, I mean, every now and then I read one because I'm reading fiction all the time and there's so little time to read. I find that having a bookstore, I have less time to read. Um, George is incredible because he's always got a, a book in his ear. He's always listening to one, and he's got another one that he's always got like three or four going, and he goes through so many books.

I know my nonfiction from George and what he tells me. And if he likes a book, he tells me a lot. So, you know, don't, do you feel, find that too? 

Zibby: I mean, you read whenever you can. Reading is how I relax. Like people, my son the other day was like, mom, what do you do in your free time? And I was like, I don't have any free time.

And he was like, well, but when you're not working. And I said, well, when I'm not working, I read. And he's like, but that's your work. And I was like, I know. That's why it's so great. 

Judy: I think. Yeah. I think so.

Zibby: Reading is just, you just fit it. You have to fit it in on the, in the spare moments and I don't know.

Judy: You do? Yeah. 

Zibby: You love it. Could we please give Judy a standing ovation? Up, up, up. Yay. Thank you so much. 

Judy: Thank you. Thank you so much everybody. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for coming, and thank you for being such a great audience. 

Zibby: Thank you.