Zibby chats with bestselling author Jennifer Pastiloff about her powerful and invigorating new book, PROOF OF LIFE: Let Go, Let Love, and Stop Looking for Permission to Live Your Life. Jennifer opens up about her progressive hearing loss, the emotional weight of shame, the importance of embracing imperfection, and the courage it takes to start over. Together, she and Zibby explore the magic of synchronicity, the myths of “the right path,” and the daily practice of aligning with what truly matters.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome Jen. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to discuss Proof of Life. Let go, let love and stop looking for permission to live your life.

Congratulations. 

Jennifer: Oh, thank you. It feels so, uh, last night when you said you just finished it, I got this wave of emotion and it's, it's been a, it is been a long time. This book and, and so much has happened in my life and you're the first person besides my editor now that's read it. And I got this, like, was I holding my breath?

I don't know, but I, a wave of emotion. I was like, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Zibby: I really, really enjoyed it for so many reasons. And it literally has led me to look at the world a little bit differently, which is what the best books do. Right? 

Jennifer: Uh, yeah, that, that you just gave me like high, I mean, I'm not drinking anymore, so I'm like, yeah, I'll take it.

Um, because that's the point. The whole idea of like, you know, my friend Emily McDowell gave me the best blurb. She said, it's weird in the best possible way, it's self-help, but memoir. And then there's a line about shooting ourselves and that's how our brains work. And. That's the, what I love about it is it, it's so like, like that you look at the world a little different because it's not just one way, you know?

Zibby: So you came at writing this book as someone who already was a successful author, teaching workshops and developing this sort of guru status for helping him empower Renee. 

Jennifer: Renee Feld calls me the anti guru and I prefer that, so, okay. 

Zibby: The anti guru, I love Renee Feld and people, you help people. So get the best out of life by listening to themselves and not following rules and doing what there's their true calling.

I'm, I'm, I'm doing a lot of bad synopsis, synap, uh, summarizing, that's the word. Oh my gosh. Neither of us have slept, by the way, but we're still gonna do a great job on this podcast. 

Jennifer: Okay, well, well, two things. One. I'm deaf. You know, I read lips and you talk super fast, so I'm sorry, like slow it down. The other thing is, I think you said about doing love, and I will say you do love all the time.

And I mean, I clocked that I get all your stuff. I read it and, and it's, and if, if your generosity is moving and I'm not just talking about money, sure, that too. But it really, it really is. And that's doing love. It doesn't have to be financial. It's doing love, you know, and that's another thing. You could look at it a different way.

Look at it anyway. And so I think that's what you said before, you went into speedy speeder tin.

Zibby: I will slow down. I also appreciated you writing about being deaf, developing that. Can you actually go back and when did that happen? You said something started to happen when you were eight years old. 

Jennifer: Yeah, it's, it's really interesting because it's been progressive and the whole idea of shame loss, right?

Which is, I will not hide in shame. I was ashamed for so long and I've had people ask, well, why? You know, you're hearing, but shame is not logical. Shame is not logical. And I was, I already, uh, due to my childhood, trauma. I had a belief about myself that I was bad and I was broken, and I was ashamed, so I hid it.

And so it really wasn't until my early twenties when I was in acting class that I was like, oh my God, I, I can't hear. You know? And that's why I am always in the front row. So, you know, it got progressively worse. I will say I've always had tinnitus, so I don't just have hearing loss, I have tinnitus and both of them.

And honestly, the tinnitus is probably worse, uh, for every reason. You'd think 'cause it's, it's maddening and. When I wear my hearing aids, I, I can't not if I don't wear them, I don't hear anything fully, Deb, but when I wear my hearing aids, it minimizes the tinnitus, 'cause it makes everything else louder. So even if I'm by myself painting or whatever, I wear them because it's maddening.

So I don't know when it started, but when I look back I'm like, oh, right, right. I was always like being told she doesn't pay attention. You know, the classic things you hear, but progressively it got worse as I got older. And then like anything in life, you know? Yes, I've always had it and I was in denial and it wasn't this bad, but I navigated it and I learned to live with it.

And I mean, I think you knew this. It's scary and amazing that we learned to live with anything. And so I just got by and when I finally got hearing aids, it was really emotional because I thought, oh my God, how much have I been missing? You know, but yeah, I don't know exactly when I started and my sister wears hearing aids and my dad's sister is deaf, as opposed, and my dad died when he was 38, so who knows?

But it's, there's definitely some kind of, you know, genetic component, but it's, it's getting worse. And right now, in fact, my hearing aids broke, so I'm wearing my backup pair, which are just one step up from nothing. And it's been. I think that's been adding to this moment. I've been, I was telling you, I've been having a lot of anxiety and depression because it is so hard and my son is normally so compassionate.

He's getting so frustrated. 'cause he is not, it's like another level. It's, I might as well not be wearing them. And um, he does this thing where he goes. He's eight. Like he's taking a breath and I'm like, baby, I know it's irritating. You know what's more irritating for me? So I, I'll get my other para fix at work.

A lot better. But yeah, it's been a long time and just gets worse, which terrifies me, so I try not to think about that. 

Zibby: So I thought I'd just bring it up because you're trying to avoid it. I might as well just make you have to go down that road right away. No, I'm kidding. 

Jennifer: But see that shame loss and first of all, right now, you know, I have the computer turned up.

I'm in silence. It's, it's easier and usually technology is easier 'cause it streams into my hearing aids. Hmm. Not on the computer. They haven't figured just the phone. No talking about it actually, I. Is good if, if I sat and talked about it in a different kind of way, like all about the fear and what's gonna happen and oh my God, what's gonna hap happen when I can't hear anymore and I won't hear me?

You know, that's different. This is not that at all and that's what I'm, I really wanna get away from actually is avoiding. Or denying talking about things because then that won't make them so, and a big part of my book is about that. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Jennifer: You know, like la la, la. I don't see it, therefore it doesn't exist.

Zibby: Jen, can I read one of the poems that you have in the book? 

Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. 

Zibby: Okay. I mean, there were a lot of favorites, but this one was so good. Changing lanes. 

Jennifer: Oh, okay. 

Zibby: So good. We'll believe anything. How else could we carry on unless we believed that we had no choice? How could we keep driving to a job that sucked our soul unless we believed we didn't have one?

So all that sucking was in vain. How could we have accepted, at least we're not as miserable as most as a reason to stay unless we believed that it was our bar. And no matter how low it was set, we didn't get to raise it. We tolerate long lines at places. We do not want to be with a person we no longer love.

By remembering it's our bar to bear, and by bearing it, how could we have a third date with someone who asks no questions about us, except by believing? Next time they'll ask what I like and what I want when years pass with no change at all. We have to say it used to be different. Or we'd never forgive ourselves for what we gave up to feel less lonely.

What we gave up was everything, and there we were still so lonely. It hurt. We eat our own hunger, swallow any urge to swerve, all to remain in the right lane until we notice it's no longer true that we'll believe anything. We are not in the right lane after all, all this time we thought we were when there were never any lanes to begin with.

Jennifer: It made me cry. Hearing you read it, it's really, it's quite a thing, you know, hearing someone else read a word and that one in particular, 

Zibby: it's so good. The whole book, oh, I'm sorry to make you cry. The, the book is.. 

Jennifer: No no's, all Zibby. Okay. Zibby owe me $5. Sorry dude. I have a thing called the Sorry Bank, which is you pay Venmo or anyone $5 every time you say you're sorry and then you can like donate it or whatever. But the idea A, I have a sense of humor about it, but to either break your, sorry habit, your unnecessary, sorry. Or break your bank and look, art of a apology is great, but we, I think we apologize way too much.

No, you don't understand. Crying is a really recent, only two years ago from when I was eight and feeling for me, I was like emotionally constipated. So now sometimes I get nervous 'cause I'm still so not used to it. It's such a joy for me to be able to feel and then, but having someone else read your words and it's like I need right now. I'm, you know, this whole pre-pub part is so, is bringing up so much demons and unworthiness and, and, and hearing that it was like, oh, right. There aren't any lanes to begin with. I. Because it's a feeling like, oh, I've gotta get in the right lane and, and I have to, you know, there's all this pressure right now and I'm human, so I'm falling back in the same bs.

And then hearing you read that just like a, it's just, it's so, it's such a thing to hear someone else read your words. It really is. Thank you. 

Zibby: You are welcome. Well, that's what I meant by rethinking, right? If there are no lanes and there's no measure of success or direction, and it's just the world is your oyster,.. 

Jennifer: The ITG, the imaginary time gods.

Zibby: Yes. I thought of that a lot. All of your acronyms, you have a whole dictionary of your inspiring concept. 

Jennifer: I thought that was so cute. I was so proud myself for the glossary and brag, I'm gonna brag because if you get an Anne Lamont quote, you fucking brag, but you put it on the cover. But Anne said something about my humor and I literally, I was like, this is a gift from the heavens because it is self-help.

But I have a sense of humor and that is a nod to the reader that it's not so precious and the glossary. And so it, it just gives it a lightness, which I think we're desperately need. 

Zibby: Well, the lightness also comes because you tell us with all the joy and sorrow and as if we're just chatting, you know, over coffee or something about all of the hard things in life and all of the new happy things you tell us about leaving your husband falling in love, quote unquote, too quickly. Right? Especially for some friends of yours. You talk about how it affects your son, but how it affects your soul. And it's just really amazing. Your whole theory is it's not, it's never too late. Like take charge of your life,.. 

Jennifer: I know. 

Zibby: And make new decisions.

Jennifer: Why is it so? Especially as women, and I just, I don't know if this video is gonna be shared or just you and I, but I just wanna show you. The paint all over me. 'cause you know, I started painting. Oh. And that's one of the reasons I was up late, you know, oops, I forgot to say. But there's this paint all over me right now.

Um, yeah. You know, it's never too late and the whole idea of daily practices and then I was like, well, I'm a lying. Daily ish. Daily ish practices is like, I'll think I got something. I'm like, yeah, it's never too late. And then I wake up the next day and I'm like, it's too late. You know? It's not a one and done Being a human being, sometimes, you know, certain things are every day.

We need to remind ourselves, how do I stay in alignment? With what I know is true, how do I, you know, remember that I do get to be happy. And so it's like every day and so yet, and still I still catch myself with those same imaginary time God's lies in my head and, uh, whatever works to help us remember.

Because they are made up. They are made up. You know, it is Harley up 41 and so he's about to be nine. And I swear some of my friends are like, I'm about to be a grandma. I basically have a toddler. You know, and it's just, it is what it is. It's like, it's our life. And, and look, if, if, if we really all started believing in this, I think like every so many billion dollar industries would, would collapse because they all are, are built upon us feeling like we're behind or we're old, or we're ugly or, or we're, you know, we need something to make us better. But it's true. We make up our own life. 

Zibby: I, it's one thing to know it, but somehow the way that you show it to us and you have like little exercises and you always share stories about yourself that.

Clarify every point. And even your Instagram. I mean, I had finished reading the book and my son was snuggled up next to me and I kept thinking like, I have to get up. I have to do all these things like da da, da. And then I looked at your Instagram and you posted a picture, a video of you and your son, literally in the exact position my son and I were in as I was scrolling and you were like, this is everything.

And I like almost cried. 

Jennifer: Can I, I mean, I'm nicknaming. Because nicknaming for me is an endearing, it's like my, one of my love languages. And I realize sometimes people are like, oh hell no. It's Steven, not Steven. So I find that. That kind of synchronicity, we have to pay such close attention. It's everywhere. But stuff like you're talking about like having that moment of like, oh, I should get up.

And then opening and seeing that in me, that's a sign right there. Like if you don't get full body chills, you know, you pay attention to that. I do. I'm always like, oh, synchronicity. It's magic, right? Yep. But the reason I was laying there with Charlie and I was actually messaging with I, I've become a friend with Josh Brolin, who I.

By the way, yes, he's a movie star, but his book, his memoir, I don't know if you've ever had him on. I don't think so. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Jennifer: I know you haven't actually. 'cause I know the pods he did, but his book is so beautiful and literary and weird. Weird and structure. It's not a celebrity memoir. Anyway, so we've become friends and we were messaging and, and he's in Italy working on a movie and he was talking about, one of the reasons I love going there so much too, is like no one talks about what you do, you're just a human being, you know, and, and I was telling him about, about, you know, the stress of this period, which he remembers because even being a celebrity, there's still that. And, and we're talking about like, what really matters. And I was like, yeah, as I'm texting and my son was laying next to me and in, in his sleep, in Charlie, in his sleep, came over and put his head on my chest, and I was like, and I made that video.

Honestly, I make those videos because I look back on them all the time, even a couple months later, and I, I, I, I am like, thank you, thank you, thank you. Because look, my dad died when I was eight. I got nothing. I got nothing. And if there's, if there's some little capsule, something that I, I know I can't really hold on to that moment per se, but some sort of tangible thing.

It's everything. 

Zibby: Oh, well, it's the reminder that we need in our busy lives that this is, this is what makes meaning, it matters. 

Jennifer: That's what, that's what I keep coming back to during this period. It's like, oh, pre tales are the most important. It's on the author and like, oh, I'm not being, uh uh. And I'm like, wait a minute.

What matters? What matters? And I, and I'll pause whether it sounds like corny. I will pause, I'll take a breath and I will take stock. And then I'll go, am I living in alignment with what I say? That's the, that for me is everything. Am I living in alignment with who I say I am, who I say I am with what I say matters.

And if not, check in and now what? 

Zibby: So true. And I think it's so easy to stay. On your path, right? That is the defacto to rationalize everything away and say, well, it's fine. Like this is fine. Everything's not supposed to be perfect. And yet if we don't make the changes we need to make, I mean, I'm speaking in hyperbole, but I feel like all your specific examples lead to this.

Jennifer: Absolutely. And everybody has different ways of being like. I don't, you know, I've known you for a long time, but we've never met Matt. But like if I would guess, and we do this all the time without realizing we make up stories, if I would guess I'd be like, you're pretty A type. Maybe, maybe not. I'm like Z, like zebra.

No joke. So when you're like, everything has to be, I was like, yeah. Like I couldn't be more opposite. I am, I sent shit out. I swear my book will have typos and. I'm Notori. I am like, it's fine. Uh, I'm the opposite of a perfectionist, which is it's, it is just the same thing, just. A different spectrum, but yeah, like the whole thing with everything has to be perfect.

I'm quite the opposite, but I was like, it's fine. Nothing has to be perfect. In fact, people be like, double check it. Nah. You know, but it's, um, it, it really is the same thing. 'cause for me it's a form of sabotage. Just the same way that trying to be perfect is both are, uh, they're somewhere in the middle. I think that's me in the middle of the alphabet.

And that would be like, now that would be a perfect human. 

Zibby: Yes. Yeah. With like K or L or something like that. Yeah. Um, I feel like I haven't done a perfect job encapsulating the power of this book because emotionally it is so resonant for me. And there were like 8 million things that I dogeared and was like, yes, this and yes that.

And I hope that people listening know that anyone will find. Something very motivating in this book, whether it's getting from type Z to type Y or you know, changing something big or something small. But I feel like the exercises are one thing, but your own story and the way that you shared it. And even, even how you did it, like throughout every chapter, like it wasn't just like, here's my story now go enjoy my self-help book.

That every message was from you and from your heart. Like, that is the best way to tell a story. So thank you. 

Jennifer: Well, I, I, I couldn't, that's the only way. And also like. I would've rather like poke myself in the eyeball with 17 pencils than ever write a self-help book. So the fact that I did is like, oh yeah, but I'm gonna do it my way.

And there's gonna be poems and and memoir ish and footnotes. And I did it. And I did it my way and you know, and I'm with a Big Five publisher and they were behind me, and it doesn't get better than that. And it's a reminder that no, not everyone's gonna write a book or get a book deal or what have you, but in our own life, we do get to do it our way.

I mean, barring most things, like barring the law and a whole lot, but we get to do it our way. So yeah, the self-help part is because I do think, I feel it's a, it's a collaborative journey. Like how you're feeling is exactly how I wanted a reader to feel. 

Zibby: Perfect. Well mission accomplished. Jen, thank you so much for coming on, despite lack of sleep and everything else for us both.

Thank you for,.. 

Jennifer: Thank you so much for rolling with my overweight, sleeping like a teenager and just

Zibby: No, no, no different time zones. We're all good and I'm really excited to recommend the book and I know so many people who specifically I wanna give it to right away and that's like the best feeling. So anyway, thank you.

Congratulations. 

Jennifer: I appreciate you. This is my first. Think actually talking about it. So what you've given me is such a gift, Zibby, I really, really thank you. 

Zibby: Welcome. 

Jennifer: Then if you could let me, that coat and the glasses, then we'll be good. Okay? 

Zibby: Okay. Sure. 

Yeah. Perfect. 

Alright, I'll take your paintings and uh, we can swap lives, you know.

Okay. I hope to see you soon to be continued. 

Jennifer: Bye. 

Zibby: Okay, bye.