Zibby welcomes Emma Heming Willis to discuss her deeply personal and compassionate new book, THE UNEXPECTED JOURNEY: Finding Strength, Hope, and Yourself on the Caregiving Path. Emma opens up about her role as caregiver to her husband, Bruce Willis, following his diagnosis with frontotemporal dementia, and the challenges of navigating ambiguous loss, parenting young children, and living in the public eye. She shares how she’s learned to prioritize self-care, build community, and advocate for others facing a similar journey.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Emma. Thank you so much for coming on Totally Booked to talk about The Unexpected Journey, Finding Strength, Hope, And Yourself On The Caregiving Path, and it's your pub day, so congratulations. 

Emma: It's my pub day. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me on. And it's my pub day. 

Zibby: Yay. You've had quite a pub day.

This is like not the normal pub day. 

Emma: Oh, okay. 

Zibby: Going on all the shows, all the rounds. How has that been for you? 

Emma: It's definitely been a whirlwind, but I'm so, I'm just so grateful for the interest in this book 'cause I just feel like it's such an important topic. So I, I am thrilled that, you know, with just the rollout of this whole thing and, and, and I just wanna get in as many hands as possible.

But 

Zibby: I, I think you've, you're gonna accomplish that. 

Emma: Okay. 

Zibby: I have no, I have no fear. But the mission of your book is so giving, and you can tell from the way you tell about your love affair with Bruce Willis and your giving back and your mothering and all of that, that you do this from such a good place.

And that's not always the case. So this authenticity is just, it's so amazing. 

Emma: Oh, thank you so much. Thank you. It's, um, hasn't been an easy journey, but you know, when you are navigating this, this, you know, journey with someone who has dementia and it's someone that you love. You just want to just wrap your arms around them and just care for them as best as you can.

Zibby: So one of my favorite parts of your story and your story is very public. 

Emma: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: That Bruce Willis has frontotemporal dementia. 

Emma: You can call it FTD. 

Zibby: It's a hard one, FTD. 

Emma: It doesn't roll off the tongue 

Zibby: well, and you have become an unexpected caregiver for a life that. Was not what you had planned. Nobody plans this of course, and you've had to adapt in so many ways and you've become a spokesperson on top of everything else, as if you didn't have enough on your plate.

I mean, my gosh, you're like a glutton for punishment, but you have one scene where you've just spoken at a conference and you go backstage and you're like, this is. So hard. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Zibby: And you just cried with some other woman, I think Tracy or something. 

Emma: Yeah. Yeah. 

Zibby: Tell me about that and just the pressure on all sides.

Emma: Yeah. I had gone to this FTD conference, this research conference with scientists and clinicians, and this was in Amsterdam and there was, you know, 750 people in attendance. And this, this event happens every two years. And what so great about it is that it brings together all these researchers to just share sort of new findings in FTD, because you know, there, there hasn't been a lot, but I'd flown out to this event to be able to be there.

I was a keynote speaker, I was on a panel and I was participating in the caregiver's day just to be there with other caregivers. And it's a four day event. It's a lot. And I just remember on the third day I went into, it was a breakout room and this really incredible, um, advocate, her name is Katie Brandt was just giving this really incredible presentation and she was speaking to new FTD caregivers and I just remember being in that room. I was sitting in the back and I was just watching these new caregivers just hanging on to every single word that Katie was saying and just writing down note after note after note. Because those early stages of FTD are so complicated and they are so hard, and I walked out of there just sobbing. And I met with another researcher, Tracy, and she was like, how are, how are you doing? And, and I just completely broke down and that was actually the end of my, I was supposed to stay one extra day, and I was like, I, I just can't do it. I think I've reached my max. And that was what that scene in, in the book was, was that it just becomes, it does become heavy and I am navigating this in real time and you know, I'm trying to advocate and learn how to do that, but I also have to like make space for myself 'cause I am human, you know, having a very human experience and just trying to just be mindful and, you know, just care for myself a little more. That maybe four days is maybe too much, but maybe now I know I can do two days and you know, you just kind of learn to sort of know what your what.

What your bandwidth is. 

Zibby: Well, throughout the book you talk about taking care of yourself as one of the main priorities. In fact, that's one of the goals of the book. 

Emma: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: Is to encourage caregivers to make time for them, eat right, do the things that they will survive longer and be able to care for the people that they love.

So I feel like that is such a good example of you just walking the walk, which is, which is really great. 

Emma: Yeah. I mean, you just have to sort of. Yeah, see what your limits are and you don't know until, until, you know. But yeah, that is like the main theme of this book about, you know, caregivers realizing that if they don't care for themselves, that it is going to be really hard to continue to care for their person the way they want to and to be able to sustain the journey.

So I didn't know that early on, you know, I wasn't, I definitely wasn't caring for myself. I was putting my husband's needs above mine, our children's needs. I mean, that's also what we do as women, right? 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Emma: Like and I had spoken to Bruce's neurologist and he had told me about this statistic of caregivers passing before their loved one, and that really just shook me to my core because I had never heard that before and it was my wake up call.

So my hope is that in this book, there are a couple of wake up calls to caregivers so that they really can learn that caring for themselves isn't selfish, but it's self preserving.

Zibby: I love that. And actually your kids became advocates for this as well, which I loved. And you wrote about this, there was one moment, lemme just get it right where your, one of your, your daughter said, mom, you have to get out and touch the grass.

Emma: My God. 

Zibby: Which I just loved. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Zibby: Um, and that you also say, you said, you know, sometimes you feel badly about parenting through this crisis. How does anybody know? And you said, I also let the girls know. Is it okay if I read from this? 

Emma: Yeah, please, please. 

Zibby: Um, I also let the girls know that I've never been a parent before and the scenarios and situations I'm navigating as a parent and caregiver are all new.

I feel like I'm making it all up as I go. That allows them to understand that I'm human. And I'm not on some parental pedestal, so I don't have that far to fall. 

Emma: To fall. Yeah, that's true. Oh, I love that. That's true. Yeah. No, the, my girls can see when I am wound tight. And that was Evelyn who was like, mom, please just get out and touch some grass.

Like you need to get outside. And I'm like, no, you're right. You're absolutely, and you need to be sometimes reminded, unfortunately. So it was by my 11-year-old, but it was a healthy, it was a healthy reminder. But yeah, I mean, they are doing the best they can in an impossible situation. And, you know, I have a, a chapter in there about parenting while caregiving.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Emma: And I really love that chapter because it was an expert that I had worked with who helped me to just learn how to communicate with our daughters and be able to, you know, bring them through in just the healthiest way. And, you know, she really breaks things down so well about, you know, when you tell them about a diagnosis, you wait for the questions that they might ask and you know, you know your child better than anyone, but you know, then you sort of can.

The point is, is that it's important to be honest, and I think sometimes, you know, my thought was like. I'm gonna lie. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Emma: I'm not gonna say the whole truth. I'm gonna try and figure, but that's actually not the way to do it. It's important to be able to be honest with them. So I really love that chapter 'cause I just think it really, um, the expert in there who, who helped me so much just really laid it out in such a, a, a beautiful and understandable way.

Zibby: Well, often when people talk about the sandwich generation, they don't talk about moms with young kids at home and pre-teens. I know. And going through all of that. I mean, I have four kids and that's hard without caretaking for anybody else. 

Emma: Yeah, for sure. 

Zibby: So the added stress is that is just a lot. And you give really great advice also at the end about what to say to kids and how to help someone through this, which I thought was wonderful and a bit counterintuitive.

Emma: Hmm. 

Zibby: Um, you say, don't say you've got this. It can feel dismissive because honestly, I don't always feel like I do. 

Emma: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: Instead, what truly helps is hearing, I'm here for you no matter what. You're not alone in this, and I know this isn't easy, but you're showing up with so much strength and love. So that was advice to friends, but I think it applies everywhere.

Emma: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: They don't, you don't got it. Nobody. Nobody has it. And you don't have to have that sort of false encouragement, like meet people where they are. 

Emma: They are, yeah. And, and especially as caregivers. I mean, I think that we're also just like thrusted into this role with no, no knowledge. I mean, I, for me, I didn't, I didn't know anything about caregiving, let alone dementia.

So you are really just kind of learning on the fly and sometimes I don't know if I have it. I still don't know if I have it because things are constantly shifting and changing. So, you know, even though that was for family and friends, yes, you want your friends just to be supportive and encouraging. I think that's so in important while you're going through it.

Zibby: Wow. And you have, of course, this added stress of being in a public family, having to talk about it, not having to, making the decision. 

Emma: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: To talk about it. Finding community, which you also talk a lot about in the book, which is beautiful, and how important it is for people to be on your side and, and know what's going on with you.

But you face scrutiny and every action, and even in the book you're like. Maybe I shouldn't say this. I'm gonna get in trouble for this. And then I saw you on GMA being like, I knew I was gonna get in trouble for, for this, talking about this. And I was like, oh, she knew she called that. 

Emma: Yeah. No, I already knew.

I mean, I knew by putting some of the information into the book that, you know, I was gonna get judged. But it's okay. I think these, these are, these are happening in families all the time where we have to make these really difficult decisions and you know, caregivers get judged. They really do. And I think just seeing how some of what, you know, we've put out there as a family to then see just like the scrutiny or judgment or whatever.

I just think it's an interesting kind of like social experiment. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Emma: Right. Where you can just. See that if we are being judged for doing something that was right and safe, you know, for our, for, for our family, you know, imagine what it's like for others who, who are doing it too as well, and just trying to just make, making the, the best decisions that they can.

But, but caregivers, at the end of the day, they, they do get judged and it's so sad because we're already judging ourselves. We're already hard on ourselves as caregivers, so it's really hard to hear it from from others too. 

Zibby: Well, I like that you can own your decisions. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Zibby: And be a model of doing what's right for you and your family because it is hard.

No one knows what they'll do under stress. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Zibby: You talk a lot about loss because this is such a complicated thing to deal with. 

Emma: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: We're not good as people dealing with grief as it is. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Zibby: And as you say in the book, it's really an ambiguous loss where he's, you know, slipping away. 

Emma: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: And it's not, he's there and you, do you debates or with, I think it was with, who was it?

Patty. 

Emma: Oh, Dr. Pauline. Boss. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Emma: Who coined the, who coined the term ambiguous loss. 

Zibby: Yes. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Zibby: So talk a little bit about that. How do you cope with the grief itself, right? You have the caretaking, you have the grief, you have the parenting, but this is something that you have to sort of come to terms with, and you have to mourn the life you thought you were gonna have.

Emma: Yeah. I mean, you know, I feel like I'm consistently grieving. It's not that you grieve and you continue to move on. It's a process and I feel like what's been so helpful for me is being able to talk about it. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Emma: Being able to connect with another person who's been on this journey, who understands what ambiguous loss is, to just understand just how tragic.

Dementia is and, and what it takes from you and your person and your life. So being able to talk about the grief I think is really important for people that it's so easy to wanna just keep it inside. But what I tell my children, it's better out than in. It's really important to just to be open and and to be.

That's how you start to kind of process. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Emma: You know, you start to kind of process the grief, which is forever changing. 

Zibby: Yeah. I'm so sorry. No, it's, 

Emma: thank you. 

Zibby: What, what do you miss the most about the old version of Bruce? 

Emma: You know, he's, he's my best friend, you know, he, um, ugh, there's so much. I just, you know, we were home bodies.

We love to lay in bed, watch movies, go for walks. We were, we just loved each other's company, you know, and I, and I just miss that, like, I, I miss him and the companionship in our conversations and how funny, you know, just how funny and quick witted he was. Um, there's, there's a lot. There's a lot to miss.

There's a lot to miss. But, you know, we're in a new phase of our lives and it's not that it's okay, but there's still joy in our life. You know, it just looks different than it did before. And getting a diagnosis of dementia is terrible. It's like the worst of the worst. But I think it's also important for people to know that there is, there is still laughter and there is still joy, and there are still new, beautiful memories to create.

And that has really been what we we do with Bruce today. 

Zibby: You had this one moment where your alarm went off and you couldn't remember the alarm code. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Zibby: And you went downstairs to like turn it off. And you're like, why is he not getting up? And then you were like. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Zibby: Oh, so this is what it's gonna be like.

Emma: Yeah. 

Zibby: He's not gonna be, I know it's like sort of a funny example, but also just. The little things in life are all changed. 

Emma: Everything, everything, everything that you've been used to. I mean, Bruce was the one that kind of ran our whole house and did the things and organized all this stuff, and then slowly I realized like, no s is, it's my turn.

Like it's my turn to step in and, you know, run, run the ship of our lives, which was, you know, a very, very different, but you know what? You realize that you're a lot more capable then you think, you know, I, I think it's important to not sell ourselves short. I think that there, we can handle a, a lot that comes our way, and I've really seen that, you know, it's something I think that caregivers should be proud of because they, they take on so much and they have to change their whole angle of their life.

Now to fit this new world that they're in. And I think that they, it's, it's just not something to gloss over. I think it's really important to realize that we are, we are definitely stronger than we think. 

Zibby: Well, you had, uh, advice to your kids, but I think it applies to you and really to anybody. It's great advice, but your kids have gotten the cards they've been dealt, and they will learn how to play them. 

Emma: And they will learn how to play them.

Yeah. 

Zibby: It's simple, but it's so good. Yeah. It's like, yes. This is what's in front of us. And they will adapt. And you will adapt. And we all somehow find our way through this mess. No, we do. And that's 

Emma: one of the things that, like I had heard over and over again, which usually used to annoy me because I'm like, no, kids are so, they're so resilient.

And I'm like, Ugh. But I don't know that you understand this situation that we're in. I don't know if they'll, you know, bounce back from this. But you know what? Kids are really resilient and us as adults and humans are actually really resilient. You know, there are things that you think that you're not gonna be able to get through and we do.

And you know, we find a way just to continue to put one foot in front of the other, and I think that's incredible. 

Zibby: That's incredible. You wrote about the beginning of your relationship and how you were kind of standoffish, not standoffish. That sounds bad, but you were like not so into it, the whole thing and you kept saying no and he was like quite persistent, almost in like too persistent way.

Emma: Yeah, very. He is very confident. Very confident, Bruce. 

Zibby: Yeah, I know. And he was like, I'm gonna marry her. And you're like, I don't even wanna go out on a date with you. Like, good luck. Good luck with that. 

Emma: It took a while. It took a while to kind of get us to our first date like a couple of years actually. But I'm happy I went on that date with him.

Zibby: Yeah. Do you ever look back knowing where life has taken you now and think like. You would've done anything differently? 

Emma: No, absolutely not. I wouldn't change a thing. I really wouldn't change a thing. I would change his diagnosis. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Emma: If I could that, that would be something. But no, I mean, life is, you know, life is played out the way it's, it is playing out and I'm just trying to figure it out in real time, I guess.

Zibby: So in addition to being an advocate. 

Emma: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: And trying to raise money and do all these things to secure this and raising your kids and all that, now you've added a book. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Zibby: Which is a huge deal in and of itself. It's like, what else? I'm like, what else is coming? So. How did you fit in writing a book? Why did you decide to do this?

Why now? At this stage? Yeah, like what was compelling you to do this? 

Emma: I mean, I realized that when we walked out of our diagnosis appointment, we left with nothing. You know, we didn't leave with a roadmap. We didn't leave with a piece of paper with some kind of like, here you should call this person that one, that nothing and you know, over time I was able to put these experts and specialists around our family because we, I had some time to be able to do it. I had some resources. And access, you know, and, and there's many caregivers out there that do not have that. And I realized that. I was like, there's just so much incredible, like wisdom and insightful information that I was gaining from these experts that I had.

And, you know, I had to dig so deep for that. It wasn't like it was just there, it was that I really had to go and, and, and find it. And I knew I was holding onto something that was really valuable and I knew I wanted to put it into a book and be able to share it with the next caregiver because caregivers are not supported.

I mean, they just are not, and I know that because I've been there and I've seen it and I've seen, I see what that looks like. So this was just a way for me to be able to pay it forward. And I have to say, like that book wrote itself, I knew I knew what I wanted to say. I, I knew our, my experts. I knew how valuable, um, the things that they were teaching me.

And I just. I hate to say it. It wasn't, it wasn't a hard thing to write. Does that sound crazy? 

Zibby: It's okay. 

Emma: It's it really There no part in that process of putting that book together, was it difficult? Like it just flowed. 

Zibby: And now that you're doing all this publicity and you're gonna have to deal with stuff for the book, you don't ever feel like.

Why did I, why did I step into that? 

Emma: I literally say that all the time. I'm like, what have I gotten myself into? I literally just wanted to write a book, a roadmap that would help someone else. I didn't realize that there was a whole song and dance that goes along with it, and I was like, no, the book will just let it come out and like let it speak for itself and you know it'll do what it's going to do.

No, I didn't realize that that's not what you do. So anytime I'm about to go do something, I'm like, what have I gotten myself into? Because public speaking is just so hard for me. It's not my favorite thing, but I just realized that this, I just have to, my Bruce would always tell me, Emma, you gotta get outta your own way.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Emma: And this is me getting out of my own way because I know that this book will help someone else because it has helped me. I still refer to it, I'm still looking in it. I'll open it up and be like, oh yeah, I, I need to revisit that. I haven't been doing that. I need to, you know, I, I, I need these constant reminders as well.

Zibby: Well, you do pack in so much great information and thank you. Self care, care for others. You have little worksheets. I mean, it's quite a user friendly guide for people who are probably already just so frayed and don't have the bandwidth for. 

Emma: Yeah.. 

Zibby: A lot. And you wrote it in such an accessible way. That it, it just felt like a, someone was reaching outta hand.

Emma: I feel like caregivers are like, they're so fatigued, right? 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Emma: Like, and, and I felt like it was important for me to be able just to tell them some things so that they don't have to like, figure it all out all the time. 'cause sometimes that's all I want. I'm like, can so much please just tell me what to do.

Like, I'm sick of making the decisions, so I wanted just to be able to kind of take that decision making away from the caregiver so that, that it's there so they can just refer to it and be like, oh, okay, this is what I should do, or this is how I should ask. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Emma: Or this is how I get support, or whatever that might be.

I just wanted to make it accessible, tangible, actionable. 

Zibby: And in terms of making decisions, I know every so often there are clips of your family together or your blended family or whatever. How do you decide. What to post. I know this is sort of a quite specific question. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Zibby: But as somebody who's like on social media all the time thinking about this, how do you decide like what's okay to post about Bruce now Uhhuh versus before?

What would he want? What are, like who decides that? Who's in charge of that? 

Emma: I think it's whoever posts, you know, it's very hard to, I think we all have our own ideas. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Emma: I have mine and everyone else has theirs and,..

Zibby: And what are yours? 

Emma: Um, what are mine? I, you know, I think I just always want my husband to look great.

You know, I think for me, what's important right now, it's, it's really about this book and it's really about caring for the caregiver. And, you know, obviously the, the story comes from Bruce, you know, that is how I am here. But again, like I think it's even bigger than him or me. I mean, this is like a caregiving journey that is happening to 63 million caregivers in, you know, the United States, 11 million of which are caregivers to someone with dementia.

And I, I just try to take the focus as much as I can away from him, just to be able to be like what this book is and what this book isn't. This book is not a memoir. It is not a tell all. It's a book that hopefully people will see parts of my story and be able to connect to it, but also be able to find the support that they need to be able to sustain the journey.

Zibby: That was a very good pivot away from that specific question. I know you were very good. 

Emma: I know I have. You're the first one to ask me about it. It's a hard question to, it's a hard question to answer. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Emma: That was a good pivot though, right? 

Zibby: That was a good pivot. 

Emma: You're not gonna put this.. 

Zibby: All right, expert.

I dunno. I dunno. That was my favorite part.

So when you think about your next part of life with the craziness of the book and everything else..

Emma: Mm-hmm. 

Zibby: Like how, like give me an an example. How are you taking care of you? Like I know there are things here and you're like meditate sometimes and do this and go for walks and exercise and all that, but like.

On a day like today, like what are you gonna do? Just collapse. You watch tv, like what is your, what are some of your guilty pleasures when you're fried? 

Emma: Oh, guilty. You know, watching just some tv, putting on Netflix, getting into bed with like a snack. That's like a guilty pleasure I think for me. Yeah, I like, it just depends.

For me, right now, my self care is, as crazy as this sounds, is advocating, is raising awareness for me that is sort of what. Really like, gives me hope. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Emma: It really kind of changes this dark narrative that I also have in my head too. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Emma: It helps, it just steers me away from that. So I can also have purpose and meaning in, in my life, which wasn't there.

It didn't feel like it was there for a long time when, when Bruce was diagnosed. So right now. Like, I'm going into these room now with other caregivers. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Emma: I'm able to connect with them and that for me is just like, that is my self-care. It's like connection. Mm-hmm. I lived in isolation for so long.

There was so many smoke and mirrors that I was putting up to try and, you know, protect Bruce and our family and th and I'm like, I'm over it. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Emma: I'm over it. 

Zibby: So you had such a good line about that. You said, we are only as sick as our secrets. Yeah. I love that. 

Emma: It's true. You know, I think it's just been so freeing to be able just to be in our, in our truth of what is. And that helps me too. Like it, it is, it, it is so helpful and, and important for me to also have a community, you know, it's, it's okay for me to be able to share. My story, even though it might be people might judge me or criticize or whatever, but there is also so much love and support out there as well.

So that is who I, that that is who I'm speaking to. Those are the connections that I'm making. That is how I'm caring for myself now in this journey versus where I was four, which was dark. It was a dark place. 

Zibby: And just, I, I don't wanna keep you for too long. I'm sure you're so tired. But you talked about taking your girls to Japan. 

Emma: Mm-hmm.

Zibby: And how you flashed back a little bit to when you were on the plane when you were young. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Zibby: And you watched Armageddon and bald.

Emma: Yeah. 

Zibby: Watching your future husband. Little did you know. 

Emma: I know. 

Zibby: And then you came back again with them, just like talk about that full circle moment. 

Emma: Yeah, so when I was, I, one of my first modeling, like my bigger modeling jobs was a contract that I got to go to Japan for a month and like, those were the times where you would be on a plane.

It was an economy. And like remember we all shared like one time vision, like in the aisle. Yeah, so you'd all put your little things on and like everyone's watching the same movie like up in the aisle. Anyway, so Armageddon was on, and I remember just like being so into this movie and crying and everyone's crying next to you on the movie, watching this whole thing.

And then I was going to Japan and then you know, that was just one of my favorite places. And Bruce and I said, you know, one day we're gonna take the kids back. We're gonna go, he loved Japan. We were gonna, we had this whole idea of where we would go, the things that we would do. And that was a trip that the girls and I did last year.

And, you know, it was like a, it was beautiful trip. It's not, wasn't the trip that it was supposed to be and we were supposed to have Bruce there with us, but I was able to take the girls they love, you know, they love being in Japan. They're of the age now where they can like appreciate the culture and the food and so.

It was a, a, a reimagined trip, a different type of trip, but it was still important. And I have a photo album that I made, you know, I pulled those pictures off the cloud and like put them into a, a photo album of, you know, like special places and things that I'm doing with the girls that, you know, was supposed to be with Bruce.

But this is the world that we are navigating right now. 

Zibby: And is there anything you would say to yourself sitting there watching the big screen on the plane? Any advice you'd give to her? 

Emma: Just have some grace, you know, like just that you're going to be okay. You know, I move through the world and so much fear and anxiety and you know, just to embrace life.

Have fun, you know, life is so goes by in a, in a blink of an eye and things can, it can change so quickly. So I just think that I'm just trying to like, enjoy. Things more like taking these trips with the girls. It's so easy for us to just say like, oh, we'll do it. We'll do it another time, or we'll do it next year, or we'll do it.

We, no. I'm like, when we have the opportunity, we're going, we're going, we're traveling, we're whatever it might be, because that's what Bruce would want. He would want us to, to just be in the world, experiencing the world and being able to show the girls the world is. You know, it's such a, such a privilege, such a, a, well, a beautiful thing that I'm able to do with them.

Zibby: And what would he say to you today seeing you in your element? 

Emma: He'd be so proud. I, I think he would be so proud. He was always my biggest cheerleader. Always trying to just like, get me out there and, you know, um, I think he'd be really proud of, of what I'm doing and how I'm using my voice because he also believed in that too.

The, you know, the importance of, you know, speaking for people that are unseen and to be able to do good. And, and I think he would be proud of that. 

Zibby: I'm sure he would. I'm so glad you have so many in your circle who are so proud of you and now the entire world who gets to hear your story. So thank you.

Congratulations. 

Emma: Thank you. 

Zibby: And thanks for taking the time to help others when it's hard enough to take care of yourself. 

Emma: I'm sure. 

Zibby: So this is such an act of generosity and I hope it will come back to you in spa. 

Emma: Thank you so much. I don't know how you just did this whole interview without any notes. How did you do that?

Zibby: I'm just that guy.

Thank you for coming on. 

Emma: Thank you so much. 

Zibby: Thank you.