Zibby chats with co-authors Brian Buckbee and Carol Ann Fitzgerald about their debut memoir, WE SHOULD ALL BE BIRDS, a charming and poignant story about chronic illness, unlikely friendship, and a pigeon named Two Step. Brian shares how his debilitating condition led to a transformative bond with a bird who literally landed in his hands, while Carol explains how a series of Facebook posts turned into a full-length book that is equal parts heart-wrenching and heartwarming. Together, they reflect on pain, connection, humor, and finding meaning in the smallest creatures.

Transcript:

Zibby: Welcome, Brian and Carol. I'm so delighted to have you both on to discuss We Should All Be Birds: a memoir. Thanks for coming on. 

Brian: Thank you for having us. 

Zibby: So explain how the two of you met up and how this book came to be, please. 

Brian: Uh, okay. So I think there's two different periods here, which I think of as BCA and ACA. That's before Carol Ann and after Carol Lamb. So before Carol Lamb.

I was simply putting up a post on Facebook and I really never used social media, but I'd found this pigeon and this pigeon had become very special to me. So on National Bird Day a few years ago, I put one post on Facebook with a link to a couple charities and a short description of why I was asking people to, uh, donate to charities.

But the thing is. People who read the post wrote me back and said, well, I'd like to hear some more about this. So, and when I say write, I actually wasn't writing because I've had a medical condition and my headache is so bad, I really can't look at screens. So I was dictating the post. So I put it more the second day and people I had heard from since like high school even were saying, gosh, I wanna hear more about this.

And I thought people didn't read more than a sentence or two on Facebook, but they were reading it. And so I kept dictating these chunks one chunk at a time until I felt like I kind of got to an end and I was completely, totally exhausted. So then these people who I call the Facebook people, and they are so special to me because, uh, I wouldn't have done it without them.

When I talked in my head and told the story, I talked directly to them. They said, you should publish this thing, and then we move into the ACA period after Carol Ann and Carol Ann. You can probably take it from there. 

Carol Ann: Right. Okay. So, uh, we overlapped, Brian and I overlapped a little bit in, in, in the publishing world in the past, and he reached out to me and said, Hey, I've, I've got some, um, posts on Facebook, you know, you wanna read them?

And I was like, uh, Facebook writing, not sure about that. And I started reading these Facebook posts and basically they were about Brian encountering a pigeon who basically he was following Brian around, uh, for three nights in a row. Um, the pigeon suddenly appeared in Brian's vicinity, looking at Brian like he wanted something from Brian.

Finally, Brian put out his hands and the bird jumped into his hands and Brian took the bird home, and that is the bird who became Two Steps. Brian was writing about Two Step and it was so charming and so funny. He, you know, was taking walks around the block and Two Steps who had an injured foot. Uh, would be hopping around down the block all the way around the block with Brian.

Um, so they're like two buddies. They'd go down to the Orange Street Bridge, which is in Missoula. I don't know Missoula, but I know it now from the book. And, um, Two Step would be on Brian's head and people would come up and say hi. And I mean, and then Brian taught Two Step How to Fly, 'cause Two Step was injured.

And so Brian, despite his condition, which makes him extremely weak, would take Two Steps out to the softball fields. And he'd run so that Two Steps would have to hop and sort of fly after him. And finally, you know, Two Steps started flying and it was this incredible moment. And Brian wrote about it just so beautifully.

It was so cinematic, you know? I was like, oh my gosh, I need to know more. I think Brian had in mind publishing an essay, which, you know, I was happy to help him publish an essay. But I was like, I have so many questions. What is this illness you have? Like, you never talk about that in these posts.

You know, he alludes to it, this woman you love, like what? And this, there was, there was clearly so much more to the story and I wanted to know the answer. So I just, for the sake of satisfying my curiosity, I was like, you know, Brian, let's try to write a book, or, or no, Brian, why don't you write a book? And he's like, I can't write a book.

And I was like, of course you can. He's like, I can't do it. I'm physically incapable of doing this much dictation, of sustaining a story in my head, blah, blah, blah. He's like, if you. If you agree to do everything except for the dictating, um, we can do the book. And I was like, I mean, I wanted to read the book so bad that I was like, yes, I had no idea what I was getting into.

But it was, um, just complete joy. And the only other thing I wanna say is that what I really noticed about the Facebook post is that here's Brian, who's very sick. Clearly I didn't know what, but he was so funny. I mean, these stories about the bird and the, I mean, it's just hilarious. And, and that's something that I don't know if everybody gets from the book, but for me there, I laugh a lot when I read the book.

Zibby: So what a story, first of all, Brian, when you wrote, let's talk about the illness first. So you write about it and you said it is sort of like chronic fatigue syndrome in a way that you get exhausted from doing very little and that it's excruciating to look at the light. And now here we are on Zoom and I'm feeling incredibly guilty right now and being like, oh my gosh, this is, I'm like torturing this poor man.

He's been through so much. But you said, you know, if people. Like that you had to sort of come to terms with the fact that you are ill and you're not gonna live necessarily the life that you thought maybe you were going to live. Like, can you just talk a little bit about that? 

Brian: Yeah, I think I was a teacher.

I loved teaching, I loved my students and I played hockey. I was a hockey player, loved hockey. And I had this partner, um, who was very dear to me. She's the one in the book referred to as El in the book. And I was in Kuala Lumpur, um, one day and I found myself in the hospital because I was having very odd symptoms.

And since then I've had a headache and kind of intense body pain and that increases when I do activity. Uh, and this sounds kind of like, or is what is called the chronic fatigue syndrome. Uh, and it pretty much is making my life, I kind of think a lot about those old horror movies. I don't know if you've seen them, where the walls literally close in on people.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Brian: That's kind of what I feel like, that the world is just gets smaller and smaller and smaller because there's less and less and less I can do. And that's why this pigeon was so important to me because it was, that's, that's what I did with my life was take care of Two Step. 

Zibby: Oh my gosh. Well, the way you wrote about it, the monster, so to speak, and how it felt waking up to so much pain and just like longing for the night where you could go back to sleep.

I mean, that was really a, you know, really emotional treat. 

Brian: So I had never had really headache problems before, except maybe hangovers and stuff. When you, I was young. Um, I never had a migraine and then I got a migraine. Uh, and I don't know, Zibby, have I had one? Have you had migraine? 

Zibby: I just had one. 

Brian: Had one?

Zibby: Yeah, I just had one when I was pregnant. They said it was related to the pregnancy or something. 

Brian: Yeah. Oh, um, well, I'm sorry for that. It seems like migraines happen a lot with people. The onset is hormonal. Uh, and so it's a lot like high school age girls start getting migraine problems.

And for me, when I got this, this headache that became intractable, you know, I've had it for five years straight. I began thinking about these people I went to high school with, and most migraine sufferers are girls. The proportion is like three or four to one the same as it is with MCFS my illness.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Brian: And I think about what, how, how, you know, high, high school was hard for me. What would it have been like to try to suffer through high school with migraine? And I'm just kind of awestruck that these people did it and I'm embarrassed because I, I had no idea. I had no idea that these people were kind of suffering around me and I paid no attention to them.

Uh, and so I, this headache that I've gotten has made me kind of see those people, and it also kind of made me see pigeons. 

Which are also kind of similarly neglected. 

Zibby: And interestingly about pigeons, you point out early on that the refuge center wouldn't take the pigeon, whereas they would've taken lots of other different types of birds based on its sort of history and captivity and how it's, you know, ended up here and how pigeons sort of like get the short end of the stick and aren't as revered necessarily as other, as other birds.

Because for a while people just wanted to eat them. 

Brian: Yeah. Or sacrifice them. Um..

Zibby: Or sacrifice them. 

Brian: Or show 'em off for, for display. I think Carol Ann probably when I contacted you, the first question I probably asked you was, are you a pigeon person or not? 

Carol Ann: Perhaps I don't remember that. But the problem was, I was always a bird person.

You know, I had parakeets when I was little and, um, you know, you and I had very, a lot of similarities with our relationships with our moms and our connection to animals through our moms. So. I was not a pigeon person though. But I mean, you don't have to be a pigeon person to respond to this Two Step character.

Brian would always say, you know, who wants to read a whole book that's just about one character. And I was like, it's not, you know, he was talking about himself and I was like, no, Two Step is like the main character. So there's two characters. But anyway, I mean, you this, this bird is very funny, very charming, very loving, just really, uh.

I don't know. I had never read a story about a bird that touched me so deeply. Yeah. So I do now, I love pigeons, of course, and I see now how maligned they are. I mean, there's some movie where they say that the character calls pigeons, like rats with wings or something, you know? I wasn't really sensitive to all that until meeting Brian and, and learning about.

You know, pigeons really, um, are not beloved and they're poisoned and, you know, towns and cities even poison them to get rid of them. And it's, you know, it's just an interesting issue to me. So, and it's good to open your eyes up to, to these maligned things around us that, you know, you just like, even rats, I mean, why do rats get such a bad rap, you know?

Zibby: But anyway, yeah, that can be your next book. We should all be rats. We'll see. You could compare them, see how they do relative to each other. 

Brian: We should all be rats. 

Zibby: We should all be rats coming soon to a bookshelf near you. I think regardless of whether you are or are not a bird person or whatever, I think that the book makes everyone just more aware of the fact that we are sharing the world with creatures who have thoughts and feelings, not necessarily our own.

But if you haven't fallen in love with an animal, like now's the time with the book. I mean, I feel like so many people have dog. Like I have my dog behind me and you know, I'm like convinced my dog is human. I usually, oh, you can see. 

Carol Ann: My cat is, my cats are human, right? 

Zibby: Yeah. But really, if you ascribe that much meaning and emotion and all of it to every creature, it's almost like hard to live with ourselves knowing what happens in society.

So I think that people almost like to block it out in the way people kind of block out death so that they can get outta bed every morning. You know, they, I think they just don't necessarily wanna leave room for that. I don't know. What do you think about it? 

Brian: Yeah, I think it's, it is kind of crushing, uh, you know, my parents when I was little made me watch the movie old yell.

Zibby: Me too. 

Brian: Like a lot of our parents did. 

Zibby: Yeah, me too. Yep. 

Brian: And like, I, I still am mad at them for this, uh, even though it was supposedly good for me. Those things are hard and for me, when. I was so sick and my life had changed and at that point had so much pain. I didn't, I'd be around for all that long. It was just not sustainable.

These little creatures who were so vulnerable and the little Two Step hopping along next to me on the street, it was just heartbreaking. And it was so hard to take care of them and just keep them alive because it wasn't just Two Step. 'cause I had Two Step, but then he found a partner and I had to kind of feed her.

And then a flock started coming. And then they started coming in the house. And soon I had like 12 birds flying around my house and they were having babies in the house, which were adorable. Um, but it was hard to watch. To worry. And I think that's part of our culture is we're really sort of scared of, of exposing ourselves to, to sickness and, and pain like that.

Zibby: Have you had second opinions, like third opinions of your medical diagnosis? Have you like, I'm sure you have, I just, I feel like I wanna try to help, like, give you some

Carol Ann: I feel the same way. 

Zibby: You know, like maybe there's a misdiagnosis or because the girls in high school have had. A girl in high school with migraines, like there are medicines and you take the pill and the migraines stop.

Like the fact that your migraines don't stop to respond to medication is, 

Brian: You know, well, I think thank you for caring and trying to help. Um, that's wonderful. My headache, even though I still have the headache, it's, you know, like six years old now or something, it's much less intense than it was when I was writing the book.

And prior to that, and that I think is because of some of the medications that I've taken. But for these chronic fatigue syndrome things, there's not really anything that they can do about that. And a lot of people, a lot of people in the medical profession don't wanna even try to do anything about it because like for instance, when I was in the hospital in Kuala Lumpur

I had been there for like six days and I did not think I could physically make it back to the state. I was in so much pain. And one day my doctor, and this is a really good facility, my doctor brings in an associate of his and says, Hey look, I want you to meet this other doctor. I think she can help you.

I'm like, wonderful. And he says, uh, and he introduces me to her and she's a psychiatrist. And so this is the big story with chronic fatigue syndrome, is that we are not believed. And again, it's this long history, especially because. As I said, most of the sufferers of this illness are women, and so when it started, it started kind of popping in the eighties, uh, nineties.

They weren't believed. It was kind of written off as hysteria or depression. And it's still that way even after COVID and people sort of suspecting that what long COVID is kind of overlaps a lot with what, um, chronic fatigue syndrome is. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. Interesting. So in putting the book out there, what are both of you hoping?

That people feel, think, do, like what is the ultimate goal for you? 

Brian: Carol Ann, maybe you wanna answer that one. 

Carol Ann: I mean, I've just always felt, um, from the moment I read the post, the post on Facebook that Brian's story has brought me inspiration, um, in during tough times to keep going, to laugh, to find beauty.

In the midst of pain, I, I don't, I myself am lucky to have not had physical pain, but obviously, you know, we all suffer emotional pain at various points. I just felt like people around the world are, you know, anybody who reads this will benefit from this. Um, feeling like they're not completely alone and isolated in whatever they're going through.

Their grief, their physical pain, you know, their loneliness. I want people to feel uplifted by it. And I don't, I don't think everybody will feel that. I mean, some people will just feel like, oh, this is a book about sickness. And it never really was a book about sickness. It's really a book about a bird and how a bird kept Brian going.

I mean, Brian had some very dark thoughts along the way and he, I mean, he wrote very beautifully about those dark thoughts very bravely I thought. And, um, so I don't, but I'm, I'm, I'm not saying every reader is gonna feel like, oh my gosh, this is like a hopeful book, but I, I know there are people out there who will respond like that and feel comforted.

Zibby: Well, it's all about sometimes how specific you are. I feel like the more granular you get in something about your own life, the more people see themselves in it or get something out of it. And this particular interaction over a short period of time, relatively. Can do just that. Like what does it say about our relationship to others and what we need to keep going.

And human connection, especially contrasted with the pandemic where, you know, you were starved for company Brian and like everybody and no conversations even. And then suddenly you get a new type of friend and. I don't know. 

Brian: Well, one of the great things about, uh, about, uh, having an illness that isolates you like this, um, and mine coincided with the start of the pandemic.

So there was a ton of isolation. There was all this kind of weirdness going on. I'd already been isolated. And so people who were now isolating because of COVID were calling me for advice on how to be an isolated person. But it turns out when you a you when you need help, uh, which I did, people come to help you.

And I grew up in a really small family. We were very isolated. My father kind of retreated from the world. He kind of became a hermit. And all these people, including the Facebook people, including you today, Zibby, have kind of entered my life and Caroline especially have participated in this collaboration of making this thing that only is so collaborative because I have so many limitations.

Zibby: Mm. 

Brian: The people at Tenhouse had to do so much because I have limitations. Our agent and our agent's name by the way, is Farley Chase, which is like the best agent name I think, ever in the history of the world. He had to do so much because of my limitations. And Carol Ann, I mean, it was just heroic what she did.

And so, uh, it's, for me, the, it's been just really great to be able to be in this collaborative process and I feel like the reader is, is part of it.

They're, they're in my head. I talk to them all the time, so, yeah. 

Zibby: And do you find, like, can you listen to audio books? Like do you get relief in the same way from other people's stories as other people are getting from yours?

Brian: Yeah. I don't know Zibby. Uh, you probably have had a lot of people talk to you about audio books over the years. For me it's just not the same as reading. I do listen to them. Um, and I use, uh, Speechify now. 

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Brian: Uh, do you know Speechify? 

Zibby: Yep. My husband uses it. 

Brian: Um, so Speechify has a bunch of different voices who can read to you and I, I, I've chosen Gwyneth Paltrow.

So Gwyneth Paltrow reads everything to me. So the newspaper, if there's news going on in the Middle East, Gwyneth Paltrow is reading it. If it's a book I'm listening to on audio, Gwyneth Paltrow is reading it. So I do listen to things on audio, but I haven't really read a book, including parts of my own book, um, since I get sick.

Zibby: Oh, well, yeah, Gwyneth Pacho. I mean, I hope my husband's not listening to Gwyneth Pacho all day every day. I guess I should ask him who he uses in Speechify. He uses it to read scripts and all these characters and anyway, my goodness. Okay, so what is the most important thing that Two Step taught you? Both of you.

Brian: Yeah. I mean I feel like for me it is being invisible that was. Pigeons are all around us and I lived in Chicago for a long time. I was always around pigeons and Zibby. I think you are in New York? 

Zibby: I'm in New York. 

Brian: Yes, you're in New York. Pigeons are everywhere and people are like, oh, pigeons. And a lot of people hate pigeons.

They despise them. But I was around pigeons all the time in Chicago and I never saw them. Uh, and. Really sort of the first pigeon I ever really saw was Two Step. And it was such a gift because he made the invisible world visible. And a big part of that invisible world for me were these people, people who suffer.

Zibby: Mm-hmm. 

Brian: And there's just a lot more of them than I realized. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Brian: And it was such a gift that he gave me. And still, Caroline, you probably have something different. 

Carol Ann: Well, I mean, you know, I love Two Step, the book is about Two Step for me, but really, um, Brian. You know, Two Step is also about you and all the love you poured into that relationship and respect for his, his wildness, you know? And you know, you took him in, you rescued him, he was wounded, you healed him, he taught him to fly. Um, you had some funny incidents with him. You got hit by a car and all this stuff, but then you had to release him to the wild. And you definitely didn't wanna do that because he was like your best friend.

He was your only family member at that point. But you released him to the wild. And, and that's really the arc of the book, which is, you know having to let go of something that you love so much just to honor what, who they are, what they are. Um, so, so Two Step for me is also about Brian and the love that Brian has, that I find so inspiring, um, compelling, you know, it makes me wanna be a better person to to, to the earth, to the creatures, to other humans. You know, it's just, it's just good. It just pushed all the right buttons for me. I'm not saying it's gonna do that for everybody, but for me. 

Brian: You see how Carolanne is Zibby. This is what Carolanne was doing. Well, I was exhausted and I was like, there's no way I can send you more.

And she was so aware of what the book needed. She said, I need another chunk about so and so. Mm-hmm. And so I'd send her another chunk and she was just so positive and so encouraging with so much flattery and so sweet. That, um, somehow she carried me over the finish line. 

Carol Ann: But you also were carrying me over a different sort of fish finish line.

So, um, it definitely went both ways. This relationship. Aw. 

Zibby: Yeah. Well, I mean, just this dynamic alone is another wonderful thing that seems to have come from this, uh, from this experience. 

Carol Ann: We've never met. 

Zibby: What. 

Carol Ann: In fact, we didn't even see each other on Zoom until, uh, we met with our agent. I think? 

Brian: That's right. 

Zibby: Carolyn. I think you need to get on a plane and go meet Brian. 

Carol Ann: Well, I'm going out for the launch. 

Zibby: Okay, good. All right. There you go. Wow. Well, I feel like as I contend with empty nesting out there somewhere for me, with my four kids, which is the back of my head all the time, and for so many parents, like this particular story of taking flight and so many loves or leaving the nest and, and all of that and, and the emotions of caring for something and how that you know, just elevates all the experiences you have with that creature. This hits home in ways that are not only about birds, this is not about pigeons. To me, the story is so much bigger, but it's told through this sort of story allegory, if you will. So anyway, I appreciate it very much and I appreciate your writing, Brian, and how open you were about your health and your relationships and your inner life and your fears and doubts and, um, it was a very vulnerable piece of writing and very well done. So congratulations to both of you. 

Brian: Well, thank you for saying that. 

Carol Ann: Thank you so much, Zibby. It's been really great talking to you. 

Zibby: You too. Congratulations. And I still think, Brian, you should get some more opinions. 'cause you never know what's coming down the pike. You just don't know about new treatments.

Carol Ann: And that was my dream ending. Yeah. Brian was gonna meet the right doctor and you know, all this is gonna be figured out. 

Zibby: Yeah. 

Just saying. Okay. 

Brian: Thank you, Zibby. Well, I'm working on it. 

Zibby: Okay. All right. All right. Thank you both. Okay. 

Carol Ann: Bye guys. 

Zibby: Bye.